On January 18 of 2012, Church historian Elder Marlin K. Jensen attended a Q;A set up by Phil Barlow at Utah State University. He was asked the following question.
“Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?”
The answer coming from Jensen is as follows:
“We are aware. Let me say this, I often get this question: “Do the Brethren really know?” They do. And I’m not speaking for me. I’m speaking for the fifteen men that are above me in the hierarchy in the church. The fifteen men really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having right now; largely over these issues.
We do have another initiative that we have called, “Answers to Gospel Questions”. We are trying to figure out exactly what channels to deliver it in and exactly what format to put it in. But we want to have a place where people can go. We have hired someone that’s in charge of search engine optimization.
We realize that people get their information basically from Google. They don’t come to LDS.org. If they get there, it’s through Google. So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either.
It can be very disappointing to church members. And, for people who are losing their faith, or who have lost it, we hope to regain to the church.” (See http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave & http://simplemormonspectator.blogspot.com/ )
Those comments by Jensen reveal what everyone already knows. The internet has created a very serious problem for the Mormon Church which is causing lots of members to leave the church or become inactive.
Google provides a showcase for all of the incredibly embarrassing and disruptive information about difficult historical issues and doctrinal issues. It provides an amazingly simple and effective ability for common people to access sensitive information about LDS church history and doctrine.
It also promotes countless anti-Mormon articles and websites related to these sensitive issues. Interestingly, the church has hired a search engine optimization specialist to try to steer more people away from the anti-Mormon sites and direct them to LDS.org.
Having done some contract work for a very large SEO company and being somewhat familiar with the industry, I can tell you that there is an entire discipline within the SEO vertical that focuses on reputation management on the internet.
There are numerous tactics and tools (both white hat and black hat) that companies use to diffuse negative information on the internet. Here is an excerpt describing one of the most successful ways to push negative sites further down in the Google search rankings:
“…Find any potential damning material and watch it closely … but what you really want to find is positive or neutral content that might be lurking around page 3-4. This content is golden, because we know that Google finds it at least somewhat relevant for the keyword you target. In our audits, we try to find a minimum of 20-30 pieces of Web real estate per keyword. This content could, with the help of a few links, be pushed to the front page – perhaps replacing negative content that appears after a crisis.”
(See the following articles http://www.seomoz.org/blog/reputation-management-seo-6-advanced-tactics & http://www.pubcon.com/pubcon-speaker-tony-wright-proactive-seo-reputation-management-in-6-easy-steps-%E2%80%93-all-for-free )
You can be sure that if the church can spend over a BILLION dollars on a shopping mall, it has allocated a significant budget for doing reputation damage control on the internet.
My personal opinion is that even the millions of dollars that the church has been and will be spending on SEO and reputation damage control, they will not be very successful. There are too many latter day “William Laws” that are passionate about exposing what they feel is a terrible scam and they are flooding the internet with their spin. They can do SEO just like anyone else can.
Jensen acknowledged at the Utah State Q and A that many of the “church leaders” don’t have the answers either. Of course he was probably referring to bishops and stake presidents and people in virtually all leadership capacities below the 15 general authorities that sit in the highest apostolic leadership positions in the church. The unfortunate truth however is that even the 15 people that lead the church don’t have the answers to such questions.
In another interview with a S L Tribune reporter Jensen made the following statements:
“Never before have we had this information age, with social networking and bloggers publishing unvetted points of view,” Jensen said in an interview Monday. “The church is concerned about misinformation and distorted information, but we are doing better and trying harder to get our story told in an accurate way.”
The church “has made no effort to hide or obscure its history,” Jensen said, but some aspects — such as polygamy — “haven’t been emphasized often because they were not necessarily germane to what is taught at present.”
Can the LDS Church do better to explain its history, even to its own members? Sure, Jensen said. “Can we weave some of this into our seminaries, institutes and adult curriculum? I think we can, and efforts are under way to do that.”
The church has assigned a staffer to create “a strategy to get church history onto the Web,” he said. “We are also working on an initiative to answer some of these more pressing questions.”
Late last year, the church’s publishing arm, Deseret Book, put out No Weapon Shall Prosper: New Light on Sensitive Issues to address some of the hot-button issues of Mormon history and doctrine, offering members ways to answer critics.
To read more about the interview see http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53408134-78/church-mormon-lds-faith.html.csp#.TydqcAb_Geo.mailto
If the statements by Jensen are accurate, the Church is currently putting together some quasi-official responses to the most disturbing issues that are continually being raised on the internet.
If they do so, this will be a landmark event. The church has never really responded to most of these issues in any kind of church sponsored platform. Of course these answers are not likely to come directly from any of the 15 apostolic leaders.
First of all, they don’t have any credible answers. Most of them are quite ignorant and naive when it comes to the deeper issues of doctrine and history. Most of them just grew up within the church and were indoctrinated like the rest of us. Because they each exemplified strong leadership ability within the church, unquestioning loyalty to the church, and also became successful in law or medicine, education or business, etc. they were deemed worthy to call to the higher leadership positions.
The last GA to be be fairly well adept in the scriptures was McConkie. Now there is not strong scholar of the scriptures among the 15. As a rule, the brethren try to stay away from debate, contention and controversy regarding sensitive doctrinal and historical issues. None of them are really qualified to get into a biblical debate with a seasoned biblical scholar.
My guess is that the church is calling upon the best and brightest minds within LDS apologetics to try to craft credible responses to these very difficult questions.
Those LDS scholars at FARMS and FAIR make for the best respondents to criticism because they can run interference for the brethren.
They can attempt to defend the church without actually having the official stamp of authority on what they say. Hence, when they say something that turns out to be wrong or embarrassingly lame, their statements are easily discounted as the opinion of a lay member. (one of the latest examples of a really embarrassingly lame defense is the recent paper from a FARMS scholar who tried to justify why the multi-BILLION dollar expenditure of a shopping mall was a better expenditure than feeding the poor, see http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/City_Creek_Center_Mall_in_Salt_Lake_City)
The problem with FARMS as I see it, is that their allegiance is to the brethren instead of Christ.
They are committed to defending the modern corporate church as an institution instead of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If FARMS was dedicated to defending biblical Christianity and the truth behind the LDS restoration movement, they would applaud the church whenever they are conforming to the gospel and speak honestly and frankly about the problems whenever the brethren and the church in general it is acting contrary to the gospel and the laws of God as they are laid out in the scriptures.
Getting back to Jensen, it is interesting to note that in January of 2012, during the same month that he visited USU, Elder Jensen was released as the Church historian. (See http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700215000/Elder-Snow-appointed-as-new-LDS-Church-Historian.html )
Interestingly, the following statement is found on the mormonthink.org website:
“The LDS organization FAIR (Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research) is making an organized effort to ensure that faith-promoting comments about the LDS church will drown out all other comments that are critical of the LDS church, regardless of whether or not they are true.”
The MormonThink website makes the following declaration about their mission-
“Mormonthink.com is a site produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are interested in the historical accuracy of our church and how it is being taught to its members and portrayed in the media.
There is a lot of misinformation on the LDS church that is presented by both critics and defenders of the faith – particularly on the Internet. We present both sides fairly and let the reader decide.”
That statement is really quite disingenuous. The people behind that site do not represent both sides of the issue fairly. Their only agenda is to destroy people’s faith in God and Mormonism. It is beyond their capacity to comprehend that the original restoration was true and then the church eventually fell into apostasy.
I know this about MormonThink from personal experience because last year I sent them an email telling them briefly about the three watches doctrine and the atonement statute and explaining to them that there is a profound biblical explanation for all of the bizarre things that happened during the public ministry of the prophet Joseph Smith.
All I was asking for was a short blurb and a link to the information that documents these doctrines on my two blogs. Needless to say, they did not respond.
They are not looking for truth nor do they want to provide a balanced and fair listing of sites that provide various view points. They simply have a vendetta against the church and they are content to destroy faith in God, Mormonism and the LDS restoration movement in their attempt.
Recently I got an email from the owners of the MormonThink website providing the following link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw&feature=youtu.bel
They asked me to send it to everyone I know and help it to go viral. The link is to a video describing 10 of the major reasons that people leave the church. While I have no desire to promote it and help it go viral, I am not afraid to mention it in this post and address the issued contained in it.
I am not afraid of the points of contention that they are high-lighting because the scriptures provide the truth about what really happened and they provide a credible response to every challenging question that the anti-Mormons can come up with.
1. Faulty Translations of the Book of Abraham
2. 22 year delay in telling the First Vision story- conflicting versions of it.
3. Translation process of the Book of Mormon by gazing at a stone in a hat without the plates physically present.
4. No archeological or other scientific support for the Book of Mormon including DNA, literal quotes from the King James version of the Bible, etc.
5. Questionable authorship of the Book of Mormon
6. Blacks and the Priesthood
7. Kinderhook Plates
8. Polygamy
9. Questionable witnesses of the Book of Mormon
10. Temple Ceremony taken from Masons
Frankly, the above concerns are among the easier ones to address in my humble opinion.
I would point out that there are numerous other doctrinal issues that should be noted as well in my view.
Many of the more disturbing inconsistencies about the history of the church really have to do with the changing of the original doctrines that were taught during the first seven years in Kirtland but then altered during the Nauvoo years or during Brigham Youngs administration after the Saints fled to Utah.
Here are just a few of the issues that I would highlight out of context if I wanted to destroy peoples testimonies:
- Changing several of the revelations in the Book of Commandments when the D&C was published
- Changing the doctrine that God is an unchangeable God who is from everlasting to everlasting (pointing out that the doctrines taught in the King Follett sermon categorically contradicts Lectures on Faith)
- The false claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the same church that was restored in 1830 which in fact the scriptures and the history of the church clearly document that it did not even exist when the “Church of Christ” was restored in 1829-1830.
- The false claim that the restoration of the church represented the rolling forth of the kingdom that Daniel saw, destroying the kingdoms of the world.
- The false claim that the church has the fulness of the gospel when in fact it does not have the power and fruits clearly associated with the fulness of the gospel.
- The false claims that the church, kingdom and priesthoods would never be taken from the earth again to be restored at a future time.
- The false claim that the dispensation of the fullness of times was ushered in when the scriptures and history of the church clearly state that it wasn’t.
The list of doctrinal discrepancies provided above could be much longer if I wanted to take the time. In a paper I have been working on I have identified 14 stumbling blocks contained within the Lectures on Faith which are contradicted by modern doctrines taught in the church
Another research project that I did included 20 major doctrines that were changed by the modern church.
The point is that there are many disturbing doctrinal issues about the modern corporate church, but that does not mean that the original restoration of the true church was not authentic, it only means that the church went into apostasy as is clearly prophesied in both the Bible and Book of Mormon.
That is the sad thing about all of the anti-Mormon propaganda flooding the internet, even though much of the disturbing information is true, it is being presented out of context, without the biblical explanation for why these things happened.
It is being used to destroy faith in Jesus Christ and his gospel instead of acknowledging that after the truth was restored to the earth, corrupt men took control of the church organization and have created an abomination that the world is now laughing at.
Every single one of the above issues in both of the lists and countless other apparent discrepancies can all be answered from the scriptures and the un-sanitized history of the restoration movement.
A few weeks ago I got the following email from a Russian convert who calls himself Jim-
“Hi, Watcher…
I just finished listening to the last episode on mormonstories 324-326: Grant Palmer Returns to Discuss Sexual Allegations Against Joseph Smith, William and Jane Law, and His Resignation.
Were it not for the scapegoat doctrine (SGD)that I’ve learned about recently, my reaction to this podcast would be a usual one – “I’m not knowledgeable enough to come to any conclusion on this matter, I’m gonna shelve it for now”, never to come back to it again.
With the SGD I pretty much can handle the charges against Joseph Smith of seducing young girls, ordering to kill Boggs, ordering to destroy printing press, ordering to kill William Law and even threatening his own wife with death.
As I was listening to the podcast, I sensed desperation in John Delin’s voice “What was Joseph doing?” – to that effect.
Coupled with John’s own admission that there’s been too much negative content on his podcast recently and his invitation to his show for any apologists who could show a different angle of what’s been talked about, I think it’s prime time for you to step in and restore the true understanding.
Would you be comfortable if I went ahead and solicited John Delhin to get in touch with you on this email to invite you to his show (over Skype, naturally)?
Kind regards,
Jim”
Here is my response to Jim-
“Hi Jim
I do listen to Mormon Stories from time to time. In fact, I recently listened to the Snuffer interview and also the McLay interview.
John Dehlin is a magnificent interviewer and he has done a tremendous job with the Mormon Stories theme.
Your suggestion is an intriguing one. If I was approached by John or one of his connections I suppose I would need to take the idea seriously however my guess is that they are looking for higher profile people than me.
Also the scapegoat doctrine is extremely doctrinally intensive and would probably be geared for believers who still find the scriptures to be credible and pertinent in their religious lives… it seems to me that John and much of his audience have long since let go of the scriptures and the LDS restoration movement as a guiding light in their lives.
John seems to be focusing on how to deal with the cultural dilemma he faces that has been caused by the false traditions of his fathers.
Nevertheless, it would be a wonderful opportunity to see if the topic could be presented in such a way as to reignite faith in some of the disaffected people in the listening audience and show them how to reconcile the many “apparent discrepancies” of the LDS restoration that they have been conflicted with.
I thank you for the suggestion. It is worth pondering.
I hope the Lord is blessing you and yours and that all is going well for you.
Thanks for dropping by
Watcher”
I am not convinced that MormonStories is the appropriate audience and format to rebuff all of the anti-Mormon propaganda by presenting the true context of these events as provided by the Bible and the doctrine of three watches and the atonement statute.
Nevertheless, Jim has got me thinking about the opportunity that might come up in the future to present these ideas. Many of you who understand and believe in the truths provided by the standard works may also have the opportunity to testify of the truth some day.
What an amazing challenge it would be to present these truths to skeptics and people who have lost or are in the process of losing their faith in God and in the LDS restoration. I believe there are lots of members and ex-members of the church that are suffering from and industrial strength case of cognitive dissonance. It would be nice to be able to present additional information to them.
How in the world would I condense the information that I have now provided in my two blogs into a short one or two hour presentation? How could I take the information provided in about two hundred posts and articles into an understandable summary?
I am currently in the process of undertaking such an ominous challenge and hope to be providing this summary or at least one installment of it on this blog before April 6th.
Several of you have expressed over the years a similar statement to Jim’s, expressing the fact that the three watches doctrine and the Atonement Statute have helped you maintain your faith in God and his scriptures and the LDS restoration despite the barrage of negative information that permeates the internet.
I am open to any suggestions that any of you may have on how to present these ideas.
If you recall the particular scripture or event in the history of the church that was instrumental in your “ah ha!” moment when the scales of darkness began to fall off and it all began to make sense to you, please email me and share it.
Watcher
Click here for Google Apostasy Part 2
Because I am Watching 
The biggest thing I got from reading your blogs was that apostasy is not bad, or that it shouldn’t have happened. I got that it was all foretold, and the Lord is not surprised. But he also speaks to us where we are at, giving us what we can handle. It was exciting reading the posts because nothing was sugarcoated. And each of the actors in the church drama were men. For example the manic depressive nature of Sidney Rigdon. They were men who took on enormous callings. Reading your blogs gave me an appreciation for Church History that I have never had.
I don’t know the exact moment when I had an aha experience. I was just excited to read, and I anticipated and still do each new post.
It is good to hear from you Freeshonepeaches-
Your comment “But he also speaks to us where we are at” reminds me of something I noticed the other day.
In section one of the D&C the Lord says “these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness”.
I then noticed that in section 38 He says “But now I tell it unto you, and ye are blessed, not because of your iniquity, neither your hearts of unbelief; for verily some of you are guilty before me, but I will be merciful unto your weakness.”
Arguably, the Lord is defining the scriptural term of “weakness” as used in this context, as referring to a state of iniquity and unbelief.
In other words, God was speaking to Joseph and Sidney and others during their state of iniquity and unbelief.
I had always thought the prophets categorically had to be holy men without any significant sin. I assumed that you needed to be a clean and holy vessel in order for the spirit to work with you and for God to speak to you. I am now of the opinion that, that is not the case and that God is not limited at all as to who he can speak to. Paul was hardly in a holy state when he got his wake up call.
It is comforting to me to know that some of the greatest men in the kingdom were struggling with iniquity and unbelief while getting commandments from the Lord. It gives me renewed hope for my own situation.
Indeed, he does “work with us where we are at”
You say: “Now there is not strong scholar of the scriptures among the 15.” And that the last real scriptorian was Bruce R. McKonkie. Wow. You must not have listened to the same Neil A Maxwell that I listened to, nor Elder Holland (who knocks it out of the park nearly every conference, including doctrinally deep topics), nor Elder Nelson (who speak many languages including Biblical ones), nor Elder Bednar, nor Elder Christofferson. I find all of these brethren’s talks steeped in scriptures, consistently. Further, you’re missing a crucial point… what these men speak is scripture. I love Rough Stone Rolling, and would love more direct approaches to dealing with challenging issues on the Church websites, if not from the pulpit. But to say the First Presidency and the Apostles are not scholars of the scriptures displays at LEAST a lack of attention on your part…
Ted-
I really don’t think you understand what I am saying.
It is true that some of the general authorities are eloquent and they sometimes intermingle Mormon scripture in with the themes they talk about. Those talks probably sound very deep and profound to those who have no real foundation in the deep Biblical teachings of the LDS restoration movement.
But in my opinion, after spending 25 years studying church history and doing thousands of keyword searches between the four standard works, I am convinced that the modern corporate church no longer represents the original doctrines that were taught in the early revelatory years of the restoration movement.
There are varying levels of doctrinal understanding within Biblical Christianity. Joseph Smith originally restored a Biblical church and taught Biblical Christianity. That is no longer the case in the church in my opinion.
The purpose of this post and this blog in general is to reach out to the members of the church who are beginning to seek the truth about the religion they belong to and are going through a crisis of faith after learning about some of the disturbing information having to do with the history of the church and the current teaching of the church.
The purpose is to let them know that there are Biblical reasons why Joseph Smith did some of the bazaar things that he did. And to provide the information they need to realize that just because Mormonism has become corrupted, doesn’t mean that the original restoration of the church was not authentic. It was!
This post and blog is not meant for people like you who are blissfully unaware of any problems and are happy with the current church and the direction it is going.
There is nothing that will be of interest to you here. you need to move along and forget that you came upon this site.
Thank you for visiting.
Have a great day.
After reading blog two thoughts came to mind. The first is that I am glad that the church is putting in an effort to counteract the effects of these websites, and I hope that they do more. However the second thought that came to mind gave me much more comfort:
“Fools mock, but they shall mourn . . .” (Ether 12:26). We have been promised time and time again that “no unhallowed hand” will keep the work from progressing and moving forward. Will hearts fail? Yes, Will some fall away? Yes. Look at 4th Nephi. Nibley said in his book “Since Cumorah” that no one can ever prove the gospel is true to another person. They can only gain a testimony for themselves. (Not sure what page it is in the last chapter). I think we should have great hope and know that no matter what the Lord will intervene on behalf of the honest seekers of truth.
Evan
“the Lord will intervene on behalf of the honest seekers of truth”
Amen to that.
The Lord has told us that “The work of God cannot be frustrated… remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men”
When the Marvelous Work finally goes forth in power, in the third watch God’s work will not be frustrated.
The current corporate church which has rejected the law of consecration and the fulness of the gospel and is more concerned with building billion dollar shopping malls and having people labor for money than for people to labor for Zion is a text book example of the “work of men”.
I tend to believe the Lord is more merciful to people who deny the idea of Him, then the individuals and organizations, who proclaim a false light of Christ, and even setup themselves up to be a light.
With that said, the church is way more harmful than a lot of antis, sadly even more the nitwits that spout off from hearsay; after all a lot of the antagonistic groups, are products of the church anyways. Both groups on the futile tug of war are deceivers and both take things out of context, clearly. But I have realized that both of their efforts are fruitless, regardless of both groups’ intentions.
They are both fruitless, because true faith is found within, not found outside through various means. The power to create or destroy that kind of faith is found within the individual and no one else. I know this may sound harsh, but most people of any kind of denomination, do not really have their needed foundational faith in the Lord.
For instance the lds has taught us to put faith in the fruits of God (BoM, servants, growth, buildings, etc.) And by doing so, when we notice that the fruits have fallen from the tree, and we realize we have tasted bitter fruit, we end up bitter. We notice the decay, from the transfiguring of the scriptures, servants without fruits, growth from works of men and not from God, buildings featuring ungodly ceremonies. And some of us eventually end up lost not knowing which way to go, and some of us, find real faith in God, and cling on to the voice of the Lord, calling unto us from within.
Unless we put the most basic faith, in the creator who gave us life; we are not really going to partake in His fulness. Now what is this most basic faith? Is it what we learned through various means? No, in fact we must lay aside, all that we know, and all what we think we know. We must become like little children, in the respect that aside from all the bs that us adults entangle in, is that we accept the fact that we are nothing without the Light of a Creator inside us. To put simply, we must have faith in our very own existence, not in us, not our ideas, actions, etc. But have faith in the very Word by which we stand in the bosom of time. It does not matter if the Bible and Book of Mormon is the Word of God, in finding this foundational faith, but what matters is that we are the Word of God. The Lord spoke and there we were in the bosom of eternity, and the Lord spoke and here we are.
We must have faith in our very existence first and foremost, before anything else. And then let the chips fall where they may. And eventually we discover that the Bible and the Book of Mormon, does in fact contain the Word of God. And this is why I think the third watch doctrine is powerful, because it shifts the balance of power back to Christ; or rather we recognize the unlimited power of Christ. And with that I am thankful that the Watcher has taken the time to defend the actions of Christ through truth.
And I am also thankful for the church taking the time to defend the inactions of men, through money. And also thankful for the defenders of unbelief who create contrast and divide the house of whom shall not be named, the being that truly has limits of power, that sadly the saints seem to have more faith in, then the infinite power of the Lord.
As to the naysayers that will defend the current church tooth and nail, this is coming from someone who apostatized from the church, because of the Lord and not of internet searches.
Before my mission, I broke down, casted aside everything I had been taught. I plead with the Lord to lead and guide me to do what He desired of me, to make His will known me, to know the gospel in its entirety. To my surprise, the still small voice answered while making my bones shake, “Come to my temple.” Then my childhood upbringing came rushing back, and I thought it meant the lds temple. The voice then kept giving me information and instructions and directed my scripture study. The voice told me that Joseph would return and lead the church again, and showed me scriptures supporting that claim.
And in the meantime of waiting to receive the priesthood, and enter the temple, I discovered the Watcher’s third watch blog; and it confirmed many things that I had recently been taught. With the undeniable return of Joseph, I became enlightened and perplexed, not yet knowing why he would return.
Long story short, the leaders became baffled at my abnormal actions, my desire to enter the temple before I put in my papers. Then one night, as I was contemplating on the Lord and the temple, I found myself in what I thought was an lds temple. I found myself, sitting in a big puffy chair. I then realized that I was weightless in a beyond white room, with no paintings, only a window that just showed nothing but the sky, and a glass table without legs, and with nothing on it.
Then I noticed a presence of indescribable power, I turned my head and saw a tall figure walk down a hallway with an end I could not see. He was clothed in a white robe; an incomprehensible body of light surrounded Him. His face was beaming with brightness and perfectness, my mind can not comprehend His face, but I distinctly remember Him smiling at me. His skin was a combination of silver, gold, and brass. I can remember that from His bare feet, and His hand that he used to motion to me. I then asked a person next to me, if he was seeing what I seeing. He shook his head and said no. Then I looked back at this benevolent figure, with His long white hair to His shoulders, and medium white beard. No painting can ever capture what I beheld to be the Lord. He kept motioning to me to come to Him, I then felt myself instantly before His face, His eyes glowing with fire in a firm but loving manner. He then opened a door to a room so bright, like an opposite of pitch black. He put His arm around my shoulders, and slightly nudged me into the room, by which arose me from my vision.
That was not the last time I had seen the Lord. I was dreaming the last time which was quite some time after my vision, and the only time we exchanged words, and they were before He came in through my window and wall. He asked me if I desired to see Him. I replied yes, yes Lord I am ready; I was in complete darkness at this time. Then the same figure as above came through my window and wall, and I noticed that my dream was my room exactly like I left it the night before. I then saw the Lord hover over me, His feet not touching the ground this time.
And this time, the Lord did not have a body of light covering His robe, which robe was open where I could see His bosom. The Lord shined in my dark room, creating contrast that was unusual, because here was this Being of Light hovering at the side of my bed. Yet my room remained dark as if the lights were still off. I almost became consumed from the Lord’s presence, as I noticed coming from his bosom was this unbelievable reddish glow, as if a personage of fire was inside the Lord. He then put out His hand and I grasped it like a handshake, I could feel flesh. He then proceeded to leave my side, my hand not wanting to let go, slid across a mark left by a nail. I could hear my soul without sound weep, don’t go, don’t go.
And there we have it, I saw the Lord not once but twice, both in vision and in dream. Who I am, doesn’t really matter, but I am an apostate who never went on a mission, nor made it to the temple. But I did fulfill the command of the voice which causes my bones to shake even to this day, “Come to my temple.” So this question remains, if I can experience Christ apart from the true church. What exactly is the purpose of it then?
Who exactly is Joseph Smith, what role does he play in our lives? Maybe the true unbelievers will finally believe in the Lord and His Word, when the false lights refuse to give light. When the world stops revolving around a false throne and the Lord bares His holy arm through the one who is at the helm of all this controversy. Maybe they will all finally realize Joseph’s role as the prodigal son.
In conclusion, I have observed that there are actually two gospels, one for me, and one for the Lord. The Lord has His own gospel or good news? Yes, His is in relation with the baptisms and everlasting covenant written throughout the scriptures. My gospel is the Lord Himself, even Jesus Christ.
Watcher,
I hope my most recent comment isn’t too overwhelming, I can never say all I need to say in one or two paragraphs. Anyways I understand how hard it would be to compress an uncomfortable subject such as the atonement statute in a short time frame. While I am no expert on the matter of broadcasting, and I really think the Spirit is the only solution; for a mass audience containing all sorts of people, for them to truly understand the kind of boat we are in.
My best bet would be instead of factual statements, would be rhetorical questions, and hard to ones at that. And even riddles and poems. When people figure something out on their own, or think they did, I believe they tend to appreciate it more, I know I do.
For Joseph we can use questions such as these:
1. The reason why he is able to return, and in charge of the redemption of Zion?
2. Why he is in charge of gathering Israel?
3. Why the priesthood of Aaron was restored to him?
4. Why he was given the plates?
5. Why he was in charge over the rise of the church in 1800s?
Also outlines, I feel that people like to see the forest instead of one tree. As of which I have found out the three watches, is only part of who Joseph is. In fact Joseph has his very own three watches before the meridian of time, which helps explain quite a bit.
Speaking of which I have finished several projects of my own that may interest you, and I have been wanting to share them for some time now, but I managed to lose my old email that we have used to communicate with. If you can contact the one I am using now to comment, you can use that one if you are interested.
Best Regards, John
“I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.” – Heber C. Kimball
It is as true today as it was then. We need good strong minded people like yourself in the Church, but it can be a delicate line to walk.
My only suggestion is to not rely so much on the logical. Faith is rarely logical. That’s the beauty of the test.
Mark-e-Mark…
Thank you for visiting and sharing your opinion. the doctrinal views you have just shared are very “mormon” and have been instilled within you from a very young age.. probably from Jr. Sunday School on up.
I know you are very sincere and have good intentions.
I personally believe you have put a curse upon your own head by accepting the doctrine you just espoused.
Your remarks are interesting because I just completed a small section about the arm of flesh. Although it mainly addresses the topic of science and the learning of man, it also pertaining to the false doctrine you have just taught espousing prophet-worship.
I think I will share it in this reply area for people to compare your doctrine with what the holy and infallible word of God has to say on the topic..
“#12 Belief in God’s words is the only parameter upon which salvation is based
Putting trust in Science results in a Cursing
Contextual declaration #12 provides the extremely limited parameters that God has established for discerning truth and becoming saved. Please notice how the following passage only allows personal belief in God’s word to access the Holy Spirit and get an individual through the gate of spiritual rebirth into the kingdom.
Notice that the testimony of others plays an important role, but it can only serve to direct others to the word of God. Ultimately, the purpose of testimony is to point people to the word of God or to condemn those who don’t have faith in the word of God.
Even the testimony of righteous men cannot save another person, it will either direct them to God’s word that will be accepted on faith, or it will ultimately condemn those that don’t exercise faith in God’s word.
“Whosoever believeth on my words, them will I visit with the manifestation of my spirit; and they shall be born of me, even of the water and of the Spirit… and the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word… and their testimony shall also go forth unto the condemnation of this generation if they harden their hearts against me.”
This startling declaration limits the parameters of salvation to belief on the word of God, and not on the word of man. The eternal law in this contextual declaration would be followed up and amplified in section one where it would be declared that eventually the ordained servants of God (weak things of the earth) would return to the earth to break down the evil structure of the great and abominable church which indoctrinates the world to accept the counsel of other human beings.
The ominous warning is to not trust in human counsel and human learning and wisdom.
“And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets— The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; That faith also might increase in the earth..”
The term “arm of flesh” in the above declaration is a critical one and well worth pondering because the Lord has revealed that everyone who puts their trust in the learning and wisdom of other human beings categorically has a curse placed upon them:
“O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.” (2 Nephi 4:34)
You cannot be any clearer than the great prophet Nephi was being. He reiterates this curse again later in the book of 2nd Nephi;
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.” 2nd Nephi 28:31
Nephi is actually quoting and paraphrasing an Old Testament prophecy of Jeremiah who foretold that latter day Israel would be cursed by the Lord in the latter days because they put their trust in man instead of God.
In the last days Israel would have their temporal substance and treasures taken as a spoil and be forced to serve their enemies in a land they were previously unaware of. Because of putting their trust in man, Israel would be led into a desert place… even a “salt land” which, at the time, was not currently being “inhabited” by others.
Those that trusted in the counsel of Brigham Young were indeed led to a land of salt where they embraced the insidious doctrine of blindly following the arm of flesh;
“Follow the brethren, God will never allow them to lead you astray”.
Jeremiah’s prophecy speaks of a blessing and a curing. Those who trust in man are cursed. Those who trust in God will be blessed-
“O my mountain in the field, I will give thy substance and all thy treasures to the spoil, and thy high places for sin, throughout all thy borders. And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.” Jeremiah 17:3-7
Jeremiahs prophecy was essentially reiterating the prophecy of Moses in Deuteronomy 28-32 where the latter day cursing of Israel was foretold yet the promise that the elect would eventually repent and be gathered from the four corners of the earth after the apostasy of latter day Israel.
The inspired version of the Bible condenses this principle of not putting one’s faith in the teachings of another man;
“And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched. Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.” JST Mark 9:40-48.
The doctrine of not putting trust in the arm of flesh is quite broad. It refers to blindly putting trust in human priesthood leaders instead of the word of God.
It also refers to putting trust in the theories of man and the teachings of modern day science and the associated counsel of man.
Anytime one justifies or discredits faith in God’s word based on science and the learning of man, they are categorically cursed.
This means that the only way to determine if the Book of Mormon is a literal historical document that was inspired by God is to read and believe it. PERIOD.
If you accept or reject the validity of the Book of Mormon based on archeological evidence or DNA evidence or carbon dating or any other evidence based on the learning and wisdom of man, you are cursed.. even if the particular secular evidence you are using should appear to support the truth.
Even well meaning LDS apologists who try to use science to defend the faith are categorically cursed for doing so, because God’s parameters for salvation do not allow science or the learning and counsel of man to be considered. It is strictly an individual’s belief in the word of God.”
Biblical Christianity is a faith based religion that empowers the believer with personal revelation…. it is not a science based religion.
It is also NOT a “follow the brethren”, arm of flesh based religion
The act of blindly following the brethren, even if they are correct, without personal revelation confirming what they are saying, will damn a person and put a curse upon their head.
Example:
This means that if a person proclaiming to be a prophet decides to take funds from investments off of tithing money and use them to build a billion dollar mall with them instead of feeding the poor, it is not a matter of blindly believing that the “prophet” received a revelation to do so, it is also a matter of receiving you own personal revelation that such an act is acceptable and approved of God.
BTW Mark-e-Mark-
Here is a true key that will never rust…
Whenever a leader of the church teaches something that sounds kind of funky, or any new doctrine for that matter, check to see if it conforms or conflicts with the word of God.
If it conflicts, discard it.
If it conforms, be sure you understand the context of what is being said, for instance, was the person saying it is a sin to lose confidence in the inspired statements of inspired leaders or was he saying it was a sin to lose confidence in all statements of all LDS leaders, including the uninspired statements and false doctrines that they teach.
BTW#2-
You have been taught the false doctrine that the teachings of living LDS prophets take precedence over the teachings of dead New Testament and Book of Mormon Prophets.
Here is the true doctrine as articulated by President Joseph Fielding Smith
“ It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.
My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them.
Let us have this matter clear.
We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203).
Thank you for your response. If your understanding of my statement is that it is prophet worship, you may be a little less informed than I thought initially reading your article, which is completely fine. Let me try to clarify. I do unapologetically revere the prophets. The Lord himself said,
“What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38.)
The Lord places a tremendous measure of trust and confidence in His servants by associating His word, whether spoken by Him or His servants, as truth.
We don’t worship prophets. We do, however, respect their chosen status as one of the Lord’s “servants” and therefore place our confidence in their counsel. Not everything they say is scripture, and sometimes what they say is according to opinion. As Joseph Smith said, “a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such”.
We have the opportunity and responsibility to discern between truth and error by the power of the Holy Ghost. Those critical of the teachings and leaders of the Church are looking through a logical eye rather than our divinely appointed Constant Companion to discern truth. I am not a prophet, but can certainly predict the outcome.
I encourage you to continue searching for truth, but remember that the path to truth isn’t through criticism. You won’t get any closer by saying “Now there is not strong scholar of the scriptures among the 15… None of them are really qualified to get into a biblical debate with a seasoned biblical scholar.” In is an incorrect opinion based on criticism.
I will say again, this time from the prophet Joseph Smith, “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
Mark-e..
Lets evaluate what you are saying and see if it is scripturally sound
“We don’t worship prophets. We do, however, respect their chosen status as one of the Lord’s “servants” and therefore place our confidence in their counsel.”
This statement is NOT supported by the word of God. It sounds like something you dug out of a priesthood or SS manual… In fact, it contradicts the word of God.
You are misrepresenting the meaning of section 1:38. It is totally glorifying God and his infallible word. It is not glorifying mortals who are sustained as prophets nor is it glorifying mortals who sometimes have the spirit of prophecy fall upon them as being infallibly inspired all of the time.
Those passages that you quoted are simply saying that any time God speaks to us directly or through his servants, His true words will not fail and should be obeyed. HOWEVER, his statement only applies to the inspired words that come through his prophets NOT the uninspired words that come through his prophets. You have been taught a sanitized and inaccurate definition of what a prophet is.
You will no doubt recall the time that Joseph received a revelation to send Oliver and others on a journey to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. When they returned frustrated and confused as to why their journey was a failure and did not bring the results Joseph had uttered, Joseph simply shrugged and said something to the effect of ” Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.”
We are NOT commanded to categorically have confidence in the counsel of people in leadership positions based solely on their priesthood position. First of all, being a “prophet” is a spiritual gift. God can place the gift of prophecy upon anyone at any time. Even wicked people can be endowed with prophetic knowledge, not just the president of the church.
Some callings, such as that of the President of the church, or the President of the High Priesthood (which are not necessarily synonymous) require the spiritual gift of prophecy to do a good job in their leadership position, however, the fact that the church sustains someone in presiding over them does not determine whether they have the gift of prophecy or not, nor does it prevent them from giving uninspired and erroneous counsel.
The presidents of the current, corporate latter day Saint church have not given valid, “thus sayeth the Lord” prophecies, in the sense that Isaiah and Jeremiah and Joseph Smith did, during your life time.
Even if you persist in believing that the current president of the church is filled with the spirit of prophecy even though he never prophesies, your statement above would still be incorrect because, as Joseph smith said, those with the gift of prophecy don’t always speak prophetically and can error.
Therefore, as JFS said in the passage I previously provided to you, regardless of a person’s priesthood position and regardless of the respect that one would want to give any brother in Christ, we should NEVER categorically have confidence in the advice a person gives just because of their position. Their counsel must be weighed in the balance against the sustained word of God in the four standard works and against the Holy Ghost.
This is why the Lord said in section one: “that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—”
You will notice that the Lord did not qualify that statement to say that a human being with priesthood position is an exception to the rule.
NO!
Every human being is capable of giving erroneous human counsel and God forbids ANYONE including leaders of the church from giving uninspired counsel to other people.
The only way you can possibly avoid following bad human counsel coming from the president of the church or any other priesthood leader is by doing what the scriptures have instructed us to do.
If you will do a keyword search using the term “deceived”, you will find the two inspired passages the tell you how you can avoid being deceived… they have to do with treasuring up the word of God and taking the Holy Ghost as your guide… NOTHING is said about blindly following the counsel of a person because of their holy calling.
“Those critical of the teachings and leaders of the Church are looking through a logical eye rather than our divinely appointed Constant Companion to discern truth. ”
That statement is categorically false and unsupported by scripture.
It presumes that leaders of the church can never error and therefore any criticism is sin.
The truth is that the Lord has warned us that in the last days there would be “false prophets” that we are to beware of.
How can you ever protect yourself from a false prophet entering into the church if you belief in the Catholic doctrine if infallibility?
You have been raised to think that the “law of common consent” is in existence for the sole purpose of verifying your worthiness and loyalty by always sustaining everything that your priesthood leaders say.
If you will go back into the scriptures and the early history, you will find out that it was originally given as a checks and balances, which gives members of the church the right and obligation to challenge any doctrine or decisions being made by priesthood leaders that are deemed to be uninspired.
Are you forgetting that the Lord expressly gave a protocol in church administration for excommunicating the president of the church? That protocol is there for a reason.
If the false doctrine you are teaching was true, it would be impossible to ever excommunicate a fallen prophet and the inspired protocol would prove God to be illogical and in error.
I appreciate your passion, but you are exemplifying zeal without knowledge. You are the result of indoctrination from an apostate church.
PS
“For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.” D&C 64:38-40
My concern is this, if you can’t interpret what I said, as simple as it was, correctly, how can you claim a correct interpretation of 150+ yr old history? Now I can see with a little more clarity why you are positioned as you are. With an incorrect interpretation, it makes much more sense.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is far from apostate. “I will give you a key that will never rust. If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray”.
Where did the majority go? You can answer for yourself.
Might I reiterate: “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”
There is an if clause in there… repentance. But that takes humility. I truly, sincerely hope you can find it. Until then, I’ll be, “onewhoiswaiting”.
So, you don’t want to acknowledge that you misrepresented the meaning of the passages the you quoted from section one, you can’ defend the false doctrine of infallibility that you are teaching, and you don’t have a response for the sound doctrine and associated passages of scripture that I presented you with in my last response… including the fact that the protocol that God gave for excommunicating the President of the Church becomes totally void and invalid if in fact it is categorically wrong and sinful to criticize someone in a leadership position for doing or saying something very wrong and contrary to the word of God.
You simply want to characterize me as not being able to interpret what you said.
I will leave it up to each and every visitor to decide for themselves whether I accurately understood what you were saying and whether I provided an adequate response.
Now, lets review your latest attempt at LDS apologetics, wherein you justify your unquestioning loyalty to the current leadership based on a supposed statement from Joseph Smith instead of on the word of God.
Rather than providing sound doctrine from the scriptures you are now providing the reminiscence of William Nelson given in 1906 of what he remembered the prophet saying 60 year prior (interesting how the succession issue was still such a hot one in 1906)
“I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say, ‘I will give you a key that will never rust. If you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray’” (Young Woman’s Journal, December 1906, 542–43).
That statement of coursed completely contradicts what the Lord has said about the issue and it contradicts that fact that the Lord had forbidden the quorum of the 12 from presiding in a stake of Zion… they were a traveling missionary quorum only having stewardship in the mission field where no stakes of Zion had been established.
Are you really going to base your belief on the succession crisis on something like that instead of what God has revealed in the scriptures?
for those reading this post who are interested in scriptural passages and credible history regarding the succession crisis, I would suggest the following series
Now then, Circus, or Mark-E-Mark.. or whoever you are, you apparently want to destroy my credibility as a researcher of church doctrine and history and discourage people from reading and praying about the findings that I would like to share for people to read, study and pray about.
I am really enjoying this little exchange because you are bringing up issues that need to be addressed, however, I am going to invite you to publicly acknowledge whether or not you are on the payroll of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
I think readers of this blog have a right to know if you are an independent influencer acting solely on your own, or if you are a paid influencer who is attempting to do damage control and retain tithe payers for the LDS Church who are troubled about disconcerting things they are finding out about church doctrine and history.
Oops, the above was from me. Wrong screen name.
I will make an attempt to clarify. If you refute it with your typical (thus far) “you are wrong and cursed and preaching false doctrine” tone instead of actually trying to listen and understand where I am coming from then this will be it.
Before I get to that, first, “Circus, or Mark-E-Mark.. or whoever you are”. Those aren’t my real names… I don’t think most people use their real names on here. I figured you would know that but just wanted to clarify. (I changed it to a more appropriate one).
I am just a normal guy. My goal is not to influence anyone. I do act independently and if my statements are of influence, then so be it. That is for your readers to decide. I am not paid influencer “attempting to do damage control and retain tithe payers for the LDS Church”. Truth stands on it’s own.
My goal isn’t to destroy your credibility. Even if we disagree, who cares! It’s a discussion. This isn’t a, YOU as a person are bad, or ME as a person are bad. This is a disagreement between two guys who have strong opinions.
So, let me get back to clarifying myself. You misinterpreted me and let me just point out 2 simple examples:
YOU: “false doctrine of infallibility that you are teaching”
Wait, what? When did I teach infallibility when I said, “We don’t worship prophets… Not everything they say is scripture, and sometimes what they say is according to opinion. As Joseph Smith said, “a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such”’. Early high ranking members apostatized, why would I think or teach that they are infallible?
YOU: “You are misrepresenting the meaning of section 1:38. It is totally glorifying God and his infallible word. It is not glorifying mortals”
I never said we should glorify mortals. My focus was on the Lord in trusting his servants to convey HIS WORD. The Lord trusts them, so do I. They aren’t infallible, that’s why the Lord has given us the Holy Ghost to discern between truth and error.
If you truly can’t see what I was conveying, and how you misinterpreted it, then this really is going to be my last post. Let me make a prediction, you are going to disagree, then knowing this will be my last post, you will write a rebuttal just so you have the last word. See prediction fulfilled below \/ 😉
For a (follow the brethren) man such as yourself, you sure don’t listen to your guides in this world, a world where the wicked one lays a snare everywhere to trip you up because you are so special. Do you even realize, you started your gospel by quoting a deceased prophet, in your mind, who had views that are in severe disagreement with today’s prophets?
Oh, that’s right if it supports the Church brethren; who cares right, just as long as you don’t hold the same views, so you don’t get the ex.
Just like one of your screen names implies, the Church is a big circus, and I admit that the line is a very delicate walk. A delicate one so much, that it can’t hold that giant elephant of failure that the brethren want the spectators of this wonderful show to ignore, and clap fanatically like the circus is working as intended.
Cover your eyes gentlemen and ladies, if you stay you will be with your family forever, but you must give us all you time, talent and money, can’t forget that money. For one who claims that logic is fallacy, you sure are wanting to make sure, logic of, the brethren will never fail us, is sound. True faith requires knowledge (logic) in order to be of worth. And also again you are not following the brethren’s counsel of not getting an education. This faith you spoke of is a sure way to fail this so called test.
Wouldn’t you lose confidence, if the brethren just started to take what is yours? Such as your wife (if you even have one), your ability to create children, and even your own life for letting the secret nature of a glorious covenant out of the bag, oops I mean sacred. Oh that’s right you don’t believe in logic, so blind faith will still lead you to your reward in heaven. Get in line folks, heaven ain’t cheap. For one who is misinformed to begin with, you probably shouldn’t judge who is informed or not.
Wow, only one time you quoted the Lord, and yet you still refuse to acknowledge that the Lord can return His true servants back to the earth. We have true prophets of the Lord now, so no need to return Joseph to help clean up this mess that we refuse to acknowledge.
Now that is a new one, for a divine being who knows everything, and I mean everything, still He has to put trust in someone, who the Lord already knows what they are going to do. Now that right there, doesn’t sound logical, oh that is right you don’t believe in logic, I keep forgetting that. The Lord has counseled everyone to not put their trust and confidence in the flesh, so why would the Lord do it, sounds kind of hypocritical don’t you think?
Are you sure you are really in a position to speak on behalf of the entire church? The only one, who truly has earned the right to be called a prophet, got nailed to a cross. Yet here the Lds saints, stand at attention, as these so called prophets enter the room. And adhere to every bit of counsel that comes out of their mouths, yet couldn’t really be bothered by the counsel given by the Lord, that they are barely even aware of, because they just read the scriptures that these same men, tell them to, in place of hungering and thirsting for the righteousness that was rejected by people who drooled over the church leaders in their day. Yeah, lets quote Joseph and also something he said that still does not align with the word of the Lord. And someone that the brethren are truly ashamed of, why else would they deny his abhorrent acts of bedding down other men’s wives and daughters, for the glory of the celestial kingdom. Truth be known, Joseph Smith is the church’s poster boy, without him, this current scam wouldn’t have the last leg its standing on.
And because the like-mindedness of people such as yourself worshiping, or having reverence for, what ever you want to call it. So you can go to sleep at night. And with that pat yourself on the back some more in respecting their so called chosen status; which is really a contest of who can outlive everyone else, to receive this curtain of Oz.
It seems like you didn’t get the memo, of the Lord withdrawing His Spirit, until the actual marvelous work and wonder happens, because what the brethren proclaim as the marvelous work and wonder is a snorefest. And the actual exciting stuff, they happened to shift under the files of temple attendance, and tithing settlements. So you mean we can’t be critical thinkers, with regards to our eternal salvation. Are we suppose to follow the current brethren off a cliff, to where the Lord obviously won’t be. And the future brethren are to say oops they were wrong, but we are right now. Wait a second; the current ones do that already….
I am lost are you trying to make logical statements, by telling people who are critical of the freeloaders, to not think logically. Hate to break it to ya champ, but the Holy Ghost is the provider of pure logic. Since you are unable to discern truth, I am sorry you did not receive the divinely appointed Constant Companion, seems like it got sold out by the current brethren. Well maybe instead of holding up men, maybe you should start to actually testify of Christ, you might become a prophet, but that is after you receive the Constant Companion, who is actually the one to give power in order to testify of Christ. But it seems, the leaders of now don’t like to share, and it’s apparent for their need to protect the slc temple and headquarters from the heathens, by building up Holy and Anointed shopping centers, abnormally expensive ones at that.
Oh master of truth, what ever would we do without your guidance, seriously if the current men who proclaim themselves as the bearers of truth can’t take persecution, well then maybe they should save money and invest in time travel, to see what true persecution of true prophets was really like. I am sorry that you have an “incorrect opinion” that the watcher has based his articles on criticism, instead of the actual word of the Lord that has already been given. You really need to go back to English class, opinion is not subject to correct or incorrect, that is what words like fact is for. That is like saying beef does not come from a cow. The watchers thoughts presented on writing format, which are cautioned against anyways, are not to be judged like stuff that is broadcasted as facts. Like the broadcasted facts that the Lds church is the true church, the current apostles are true prophets, seers, and revelators. Maybe you should keep your incorrect opinions to yourself. You must have skipped over Joseph’s quote of “I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled.”
If the big 15 are such strong scholars or actually as their titles suggest, they really wouldn’t be in the position they are in now, in trying to convince people, who have the guts to turn away from the crooked and petty thieves that the big 15 truly are, by endorsing sub organizations to take the blame, if the same subs somehow end up wrong. They wouldn’t be spending money, so I can see the delusions that you still hold to, on almost every advertisement that happens to present itself at me when I browse the web looking for insights in how corrupt those big 15 truly are.
You will be in a rude awakening, when you realize that Joseph Smith doesn’t really agree in everything you present, which you think are pearls of wisdom, but in reality it is just senseless drivel in order to excuse your inability to return to Christ.
It baffles me how the blind, can tell themselves that they are not blind, and attempt to belittle the ones who can see the Light. And of how they mock the ones who actually see Light, regardless of intensity of that Light, and believe that the ones that can see the Light at the end of this dark and dreary tunnel are in their interpretations blind.
I love logic, because I can see how illogical you are. Originally the church was called church of Christ, notice the of representing possession. Now the current name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. First thing church is capitalized; second there is dual possession in the name which is a representation of the wheat and tares parable. Third, Lds shows possession of Jesus Christ, that’s a little strange for servants to be in possession of the Master. And fourth is the ironic nature of lds, since saint is relation to sanctified. If the saints were truly sanctified, they would have received witnesses of Christ, and would end up not supporting the false ideal to follow the brethren, to receive salvation
Keep on quoting the man that is a stumbling block, for the true apostasy that the church phases through. You may find yourself snared and taken back, to a place you think you are not heading to.
Honestly, if what the watcher has brought to attention, offends you so bad, why do you persist in proclaiming your delusions? And it seems you have resorted to these childish games, in making of mockery of what the watcher stands for. You can throw out all the words to mask your pride as humility.
And your pride, keeps you saying the same things over and over to yourself, pride sure hurts people, but it hurts the person being prideful far more in the long run. I am sorry that I have used sarcasm and scorn to prove a point, but sometimes kids do not listen to the beginning warnings, and sometimes parents have to bring themselves down, so they can see eye to eye, and eventually raise them up, so they can raise up their own children.
That is what Christ did, and gave impossible teachings, to wake up His children in teaching them, that He is full of mercy, peace, love, longsuffering, grace, truth, and that even He has to pull out the belt and use justice, harsh judgment, and wrath, because His children refuse to listen.
And eventually He will bring us to His eye level, maybe for a minute or an hour, and maybe for eternity. I hope and pray that a lost soul such as yourself, is for eternity, but if you refuse to acknowledge it is only by Christ that you are saved, then I am afraid it will be a much shorter time frame.
As far as who I am, it doesn’t matter, even if I said, you probably wouldn’t believe anyways. Also don’t assume I am in relation with the watcher, in fact we disagree on many, many things. I would have stayed silent, but you had to go and make your stubborn incredulous remarks, in proving you are not a son nor servant of Christ.
Hopefully you will turn to the gospel of Christ, and receive His grace.
Watcher,
Any thoughts on whether the King Follett discourse that we supposedly have today, is ACTUALLY the real thing Joseph said in that funeral service? Although many years ago I just loved what was in there, there came a point where I started to question it. Some possible views come to mind:
1. Joseph was teaching the apostate folk in Nauvoo any and every thing their itching ears wanted to hear…to lead to their own condemnation.
2. Joseph’s revelations were drying up, and maybe he really was a boastful fella who loved the attention and wanted to live up to the expectations so he started to come up with all sorts of stuff just to keep his celebrity going. Kinda like a famous singer or movie star who keeps bringing out albums/movies after it is painfully obvious their prime was over a long time ago. You know what happens: as awful as it may be, loyal fans will still spend their hard earned money and continue to idolise and support them, with all their heart.
3. The other possibility is that Brigham and his masonic buddies like Heber C Kimball and co., joined the church AFTER already being masons, and were assigned to do so to bring the church to its destruction. They set out guiding and plotting Joseph’s assassination while he was alive, and then set about to do a character assassination AFTER his death by altering all his words and discourses.
I just do not trust Brigham and Heber…from what i have been reading, it seems that when they were on their mission in England, some brethren testified that they were shocked to find out brigham and Heber had taken a trip up to Scotland to receive the Scottish Rites of Masonry, calculated to bring the Churst of Christ to its knees.
From the day I joined the Church I just felt a lack of spirit in anything Brigham said and wrote. And that was from church-approved material. When i finally started to research the pure crap that just spewed forth from him, I seriously started to wonder if he was placed in his role DELIBERATELY.
Anyway, is it possible that the King Follett is not available in its purity?
(told ya i’d start writing sometime!…2am here though, so pl excuse the incoherence)
Fusion
Interesting comments Fusion
The Lord had promised that he would deliver the saints over to Satan if they hardened their hearts.
For years I thought the delivering over to Satan began with Brigham Young However, it appears to me that it actually began with Joseph per the terms mentioned in 2 Nephi 27:5. I think the Lord covered the eyes of the seers because of the heardened hearts of the saints.
I think the infiltration of Masonry, the false masonic temple endowment, the false teachings about God and several other things are an indication that the Lord was having his servants deliever the rebellious saints over the Satan.
Few people realize that Joseph was approached by the High Council in Nauvoo telling him they were ready to try living consecration again and Joseph told them that was no longer an options at that time. I guess there are different ways to interpret that.
I do recall reading a paper once that contained a quote by someone that was present that day that the King Follet sermon was delivered and they denied that many of those things were ever taught
Nevertheless, it is difficult to deny the fact that most of the seven major diaries we have seem to back each other up
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html
I did address this topic somewhere in a post but I don’t remember which one.
I do think there was a horrendous amount of pressure on Joseph to prove that he was still relevant and revelatory. He had not recieved a revelation for quite some time and people were calling him a fallen prophet.
His statement within the sermon is a dead giveaway that he was feeling pressure
“Would to God I had 40 days & nights I would let you know that I am not a fallen prophet”
Regarding your comment about Brigham and Heber. At the time of the Martyrdom, Mother Smith recieved three revelations in a row. In one of them it was revealed to her that Joseph would return and lead the saints at a future time. During that time she made an ominous statement saying that two of the twelve had black hearts. Her inferance was obviously regarding Brigham and Heber. Interestingly, I think they were the only two that had not been called to be High Priests.
I’ll try to did that quote up and post it.
Your comment about Brigham going to Scotland is an interesting one. I would love to see information about that.
Interesting comments as always Fusion.. thanks for visiting
…and I wonder if the documentation we have that Joseph taught that the Holy Ghost is in probation and waiting to receive a body, is actually true??
From my understanding, i just cannot accept anything but that the Holy Ghost is the mind and will of God that fills the immensity of time and space. Could be that is what the ancient Vedas refer to as the Akashic Records- the mystic ‘place’ where all intelligence and ideas can be tapped into.
In fact, i will send you an email about something in a sec…
Fusion
I think we need to also chalk the Holy Ghost as a man doctrine up to the delivering of an apostate people over to Satan. It contradicts everything taught in the scriptures about the Holy Ghost.
Any way we could get a hold of the reference of Brigham and Heber going to Scotland?
While reading this morning I came across these verses and this post came to mind…
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
(Isaiah 56:10-12)
I believe that Isaiah is being a bit harsh here. I don’t think that categorically they’re all dumb, greedy, ignorant or blind.
What stood out to me was the greedy part.
After reading about the shopping mall I started to see things in the scriptures that point toward the incorrectness of their ways.
I don’t know if you’ve seen this or not, but I have to agree with the guy at 2:01 that once they let the cat out of the bag there’s no going back to teaching things the same old way. They’re going to have to revamp their teaching curriculum to match what the correlation department will be churning out between now and next April.
Here’s the link:
http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8607.shtml
Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. at 1:07 they refer to a new video released “this afternoon” which appears to be an interview with Elder Steven Snow the new church historian.
I don’t see a link to it and have not been able to google it.
If anyone knows where the video is please provide a link.
Yeah, I couldn’t find it either. The only other video I could find was Fox News’ take on it.
http://fox13now.com/2013/12/10/lds-church-releases-statement-on-race/
If you run a Google search for the term “new video explain how church is using study resources” you’ll find a link to an LDS.org page that has three new videos the church has released to help study the gospel.
It was released four days ago, but has mysteriously disappeared.
The link google had indexed no longer exists. 😦
Ok, you set me on a journey.
Here’s what I found.
http://ewallstreeter.com/lds-media-talk-gospel-topics-for-personal-and-family-study-5310/
The LDS.org topics page will be updated from time to time.
They have updated the “Race and Priesthood” and The First Vision Accounts”
You can see them here:
http://www.lds.org/topics
http://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng
thank you!
Watcher,
I have been thinking about this paragraph for the past few months in the back of my head:
‘How in the world would I condense the information that I have now provided in my two blogs into a short one or two hour presentation? How could I take the information provided in about two hundred posts and articles into an understandable summary?’
I believe I have found something that may be the answer, or may provide you with a direction towards the answer.
The following is an brilliant way to compress a ton of historic concepts into a flowing presentation:
Perhaps there is someone you or one of us readers knows in graphics that could
While I’m at it, please do check out this next video- a landmark that changed my view of myself, and accepting and celebrating the gifts and talents that each individual is blessed with. Ken Robinson’s wit is hilarious in presenting a seemingly serious topic:
Enjoy!
Fusion
OH MY GOSH!
Are you a mind reader or what! For over a year I have attempted to find a service that helps people to create those kind of fast moving narratives that are supported with hand drawings but have been unable to do so.
Yes I agree, that is a great way to communicate and change paradigms. What is exciting is that when I began to watch the youtube you sent me, an advertisement came on first (which I usually click out of at the five second mark) that tells about another turnkey service that enables one to create these kinds of presentations!
I am only 40 seconds into the “Changing Education Paradigms” video which I will resume now.
I also look forward to viewing the other video.
THANKS!
Watcher
Great! I’m getting better at this mind-reading stuff..been teaching myself how to ever since Mrs Fusion and I got married LOL
I honestly hope you can get it done- putting your ‘revised’ history of the church/restoration, biblical profile of joseph, return of sidney and joseph…not to mention the Lamanite lamentations, Gentile gratifications, the Masonic infiltrations, Brigham’s ‘bominations, Word of God transfigurations, Tithing transformations, Book of Mormon condemnation, and the corrupted Correlations…amongst the host of others, of course!
I’m truly excited at the prospect that this may be a possibility for the incredible stuff you have unearthed and put together! Gosh, I have been just searching for a way, and then bam! it came into my rather large, spacious head…
Fusion, dude, you are the BEST! Super witty and funny….and very endearing……
Don’t ever go away.