“I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation.. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

I think it was President Benson who once said something to the effect of;

You cannot protect yourself from the enemy if you don’t know who he is and how he operates

Again, I am paraphrasing and going by memory. I may have that a little wrong. Nevertheless, I think it is true whether he said it or not.

Now, speaking of needing to know who the enemy is in order to protect yourself from them… I am going to challenge a long standing doctrine that has been taught.

It has to do with the war in heaven. What I am about to show you might just scare the bageebies out of you, but it will also help you to understand better just who the enemy is and how close he is to you. Hopefully in understanding this, you will be able to protect yourself with the aid of the Spirit and the grace of God.

Here is a direct quote from the LDS Bible Dictionary regarding the WAR IN HEAVEN;

This term arises out of Rev. 12: 7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14: 12-20; Luke 10: 18; Rev. 12: 4-13; D&C 29: 36-38; Moses 4: 1-4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37; see also Rev. 12: 9; Abr. 3: 24-28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong; between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3: 22-23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12: 30; 1 Ne. 14: 10; Alma 5: 38-40).

Ok, that all seems pretty straight forward and well documented… right? It is a very warm and comforting doctrine right to know that the evil people that followed Satan didnt get to come down here to earth with all of the valiant spirits… right?

It is often taught in the Church that;

We know that all of us on earth chose to support the plan of redemption by virtue of the fact that we are on earth enjoying a mortal body

It is very comforting to know that those evil wicked spirits who rebelled against the Gospel Plan and against Christ as the Savior and against that concept of atonement are not rubbing shoulders with us in the flesh… right?

Sorry, but I don’t buy it…

I don’t think the wicked ruler that had all of the male infants killed when Moses was born or the Pharaoh that Moses dealt with, or Hitler or thousands of other leaders who have ruled with blood and horror on this earth or the droves of people who plunder and kill were supportive of the plan of salvation in the pre-existence.

I just don’t think so!

Let me ask you this. If those who chose to follow Satan in the pre-existence were in fact, mingled among us, during this probationary life, don’t you think we should be aware of it, so that we would be a little more sober and alert in protecting ourselves against those who  truly hate Christ and reject the atonement and want to destroy his children?

Wouldn’t we be a little more protective if we thought the third portion of spirits that followed Satan were also going through this probationary experience with us instead of thinking of Satan and his minions as being in the background somewhere in spirit form?

I am not saying that there are not evil seducing spirits that we must contend with in this life.. there certainly are.

However, there may be spirits in flesh and blood that are just as dangerous. It is very helpful to know who and where the enemy is. Yes the war in heaven is being continued on earth just as the church teaches but the literal reality of this war needs to be understood..

All of the evil spirits involved in the War in Heaven that followed Satan had to take upon themselves physical bodies and come down to earth and go through mortal probation with us… the laws of eternity require it.

I am now going to address each of the scriptures provided in the LDS Dictionary to see if in fact they really prove that old Scratch and his followers were not allowed to take on a physical body and come to probation with us.

First lets look at Rev. 12: 7 I am actually going to post the entire chapter for you to read for yourself. Remember that the angel told John that the vision was going to show him things which must shortly come to passit is a vision about the FUTURE… not the past.

As you read this chapter you will see that the war in heaven spoken of in the 12th chapter of Revelation was not the pre-existent war for this particular earth and the generation of spirits that came to it… rather it is a war that takes place during this probation!

Notice that it is when the kingdom of God comes forth upon this earth that Satan is cast down to persecute the woman that brings forth the “man child”.

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought for a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.

17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Note the changed sequence of verses in the JST.]

Ok. As you can see, that chapter is not speaking about the pre-existence and it says nothing about Satan and his followers not getting to have a body.

Next…

Now lets look closely at D&C 29: 36-38

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the adevil—for, behold, the bdevil was before Adam, for he crebelled against me, saying, Give me thine dhonor, which is my epower; and also a fthird part of the ghosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their hagency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the adevil and his bangels;

38 And, behold, there is a place aprepared for them from the beginning, which place is bhell.

Chronologically speaking, the “third part” of the hosts of heaven appears to turn away from Christ AFTER the Devil tempts Adam. And again, there is nothing that says that those who follow Satan don’t get to come to probation just like the rest of us.

By the way, contrary to popular belief, the term “third part” does not mean 1/3.

In theory, you could have three groups of people with one portion that equals 90% one portion that equals 9% and one portion that equals 1%.

The scriptures don’t reveal what percentage followed Satan.. they only tell us that there appears to have been three groups. The scriptures indicate that perhaps the three groups might have been composed of those who come forth in the first resurrection, those who are redeemed after the space of 1,000 years and finally those who cannot be redeemed.

Next…

Moses 4: 1-4

1 And I, the aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That bSatan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the cbeginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will dredeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved aSon, which was my Beloved and bChosen from the beginning, said unto me—cFather, thy dwill be done, and the eglory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that aSatan brebelled against me, and sought to destroy the cagency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be dcast down;

4 And he became aSatan, yea, even the bdevil, the father of all clies, to ddeceive and to blind men, and to lead them ecaptive at his will, even as many as would not fhearken unto my voice.

The above passages indicate that it was in the pre-existence that Satan requested to be the one sent down however, it does not indicate that it was immediately at that time that he was cast down… in fact, you will notice in verse three that it is not after he presents himself to be the one to go down that he is cast out of heaven, but rather it is after he rebelled that he is cast down. I would suggest that it was at a later time that he rebels.

The story of Job supports that fact that Satan remained in heaven during Old Testament Times.

Next…

Luke 10: 18;

“And he said unto them, I beheld aSatan as lightning fall from heaven.”

That comment was made by Christ in the meridian of time when he was instructing the Seventy to go forth on their missions.

There is just as much chance that Christ beheld Satan cast down at that time, in the meridian of time, or even in a vision of a future event as there is that he was looking back into the pre-existence!

Next…

Ok, now this is where it really gets interesting.

I am not quite sure why they included this chapter in the dictionary because it does not support the theory that Satan and his followers were not allowed to come to probation and take upon themselves physical bodies;

Isa. 14: 12-20

12 How art thou afallen from bheaven, O cLucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the dnations!

13 For thou hast said in thine aheart, bI will ascend into heaven, I will cexalt my dthrone above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the enorth:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to ahell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see athee shall bnarrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in aglory, every one in bhis own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like aan abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to bthe stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be ajoined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the bseed of cevildoers shall never be renowned.

Isaiah 14 is a prophecy about the future! The verses leading up to verse 12 are speaking about the fall of Babylon, the Golden City and how the staff (right to rule) is taken away from Satan and his wicked minions that have been ruling the world for 6,000 years.

According to Isaiah, Satan is cast down in the last days!

It would have been sometime between the meridian of time and the end of probation that Satan is cast down from heaven according to Isaiah… and … Are you sitting down?

Verse 19 is still speaking directly to Satan! It is Satan that is “cast out of thy grave”.

“But thou (Satan) art cast out of thy grave like aan abominable branch…”

Read it again very carefully and don’t get distracted by the interim verses.

Why is Satan cast out of the grave if he never came to probation to get a body?

How is he cast out of the grave if he never  died a physical death?

Another reference provided in the LDS Dictionary is Alma 5: 38-40).

Behold, I say unto you, that the good ashepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not bhearken unto the voice of the cgood shepherd, to the dname by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

39 And now if ye are not the asheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the bdevil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a cliar and a dchild of the devil.

40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is agood cometh from God, and whatsoever is bevil cometh from the devil.

This verse informs us that those who hearken to the voice of the good shepherd in this life are of his fold. He who doesn’t is a child of the devil!

The Children of the Devil did not accept and follow Christ in the pre-existence.

Ah Ha! Now we are starting to get somewhere. Those who know the voice of Christ in this life are his children. They obviously followed him in the pre-existence.

Those who don’t know his voice are the children of the devil. They obviously followed Satan in the pre-existence.

Ok.. those are the scriptures the LDS Dictionary uses to support the theory that the children of hell that followed Scratch did not get to come down here and take on bodies and go through probation with us.

If you read those scriptures closely, then you probably realize that those scriptures may be saying something quite different than what is commonly taught.

The reason I feel this is very important to understand is because we need to be aware that there are those in our midst who hated Christ and the Atonement based Gospel that was chosen by the Father in the pre-existence.

Here are some additional scriptures and teaching of LDS leaders to augment the scriptures provided by the LDS Bible Dictionary.

1-The Lord has told us that both the literal seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent would co-exist on this earth together; “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman , between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise they head, and thou shalt bruise thy heel…” (Moses 4:21 gen 3:15)

2-Cain was a son of perdition in the pre-existence because he was one of the ones that chose to follow Satan in the pre-existence; “…thou shalt be called the father of lies; thou shalt be called perdition; for thou was also before the world.” (Moses:5:24)

3-It appears that some of the early leaders had been taught by JS that the seed of Cain provided tabernacles for the pre-existent followers of Satan; “A descendant of Cain was allowed to come through the flood in order that the devil might be properly represented upon the earth” (John Taylor JD 23:336 No I am not a bigot. I do not have an issue with blacks, I am simply quoting Taylor to show that there is some reason to believe that you can trace the seed of Cain coming through the blood.)

4-Jesus told some of the Pharisees that they came from beneath and that their father was the devil; “And said unto them, ye are from beneath; I am from above, ye are of this world; I am not of this world… ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and above not in truth, because there is no truth in him…” John 8:23)

5-The Book of Mormon teaches that those who bring forth evil works are the children of the devil and that they came from the devil; “And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of this fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold I say unto you whosever denieth this is a liar and a child of the Devil.” (Alma 5:40-41)

6-The Book of Mormon teaches that after all men have passed through mortality and are brought before the judgment bar, those who are still filthy become the devil and his angels (of the next world) “And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this fist death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy one of Israel… they who are righteous shall be righteous still and they who are filthy shall be filthy still wherefore they who are filthy are the devil and his angels.” (2 Nephi 9:15-16)

7-Jesus knew that the war in heaven was taking place here on earth and that both armies are here in the flesh. That is why he said, “think not that I have come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter in law against her mother in law…” Mat 10:34

Now that brings the first part of what I wanted to discuss to an end, namely that the war in heaven is literally being continued right here on earth by the same players. I believe the scriptures clearly prove that Satan and his followers do get physical bodies and they do go through a mortal probation. I believe I have provided adequate scriptural support for this supposition.

Now for the next issue that I want to address. I am openly declaring this part of this post to be speculation on my part.

I believe that one of the reasons, if not the primary reason that Scratch and his followers rejected the Fathers plan to have a Savior and a Gospel predicated on an Atonement is because they could see what would happen to them if the plan of the Father was accepted.

Somewhere in my files I have a quote from one of the Nauvoo Discourses wherein Joseph Smith  revealed in a sermon that after this earth life and the resurrection we will all ultimately return to the glory from which we were created.

Hence, the children of light that were created from terrestrial and celestial intelligence could see what their outcome would be and they rejoiced!

The children of hell on the other hand, that had been created from outer darkness could see what their final end would be as well. Of course they fought like hell against the plan.

In other words, we all come here with a certain spiritual DNA or potentiality based on what part of the universe God took our unorganized intelligence.

It may seem unfair that God would require the children of outer darkness to go through a probation and then to go through the excruciating pain of having their spirit and tabernacle torn asunder after being resurrected. We simply don’t know all of the details. We do know that there must be opposition in all things (opposing forces) in order for us to be able to have agency and to go through a plan of salvation.

Finally, let me share my theory about how to identify those in this life that seem to have the same doctrinal leanings as those who followed Satan.

We learn two very important things about Satan in the scriptures that carry over to his children.

One is that he did not like the plan of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and was not supportive of Christ. I guess he realized that the atonement would not shield him from the law of justice and that it would not ultimately save him from suffering in outer darkness for eternity…  therefore he fought against it and wants to do everything in his power to make others miserable like unto his own sorry little personage.

The second thing is that his inner desire and motivation is that he wants to “exalt his own throne above the stars”… he wants to “ascend above the heights of the clouds and be like the most high” but he wants to do it some other way than through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and through the Atonement.

This brings me to the teachings of the new age movement and other anti-Christ movements that you need to be aware of as we enter into the last lap of this probationary experience.

Three things that are very common characteristics of the Children of the Devil that cleave to these seductive teachings is that they;

1-Reject the doctrine of the atonement as taught in the scriptures, often claiming that it is not necessary or that it is impossible for anyone to deny the atonement because it will save everyone. They reject the words of the Savior wherein he warned that those who do not repent and believe on his name must suffer for their own sins despite the suffering that he went through.

2-They usually teach that they are perfect beings just the way they are instead of fallen beings that need to experience a change of heart through the Gospel of Jesus Christ… they tend to exalt themselves and claim the divinity that is within them as being all they need to ascend into the heavens.

3- They love the concept of control and dominion over others instead of giving everyone their agency to choose what to believe and how to govern their own lives. They are supportive of oppressive governments that take away the God-given rights of the individual.

I am not saying that everyone who is still stuggling to understand and accept the Atonement is a Child of the Devil. There are many people who, like Saul and Alma the Younger, are still working things out and will be born in due time, I am simply identifying what I believe to be one of the polarizing issues of the Gospel because it is so important to understand.

Beware. The war in heaven is now taking place on earth. There are some very seductive and intoxicating doctrines that teach that the natural man is not an enemy to God, that we don’t need an atonement and that we can draw from the divine God within ourselves to ascend into the heavens and be like God without the need to access the Atonement of Christ through faith, repentance, baptism of water, the baptism of fire and the reception of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion..

If the War in Heaven teaches us anything about the events of the 3rd Watch it should be that the God intentionally allows a Son of Perdition to be in a position of authority so that he can lead his own children astray. This should provide context for 2nd Thes.

This is why I have relentlessly stated that it is not enough to follow a prophet, we each must BE a prophet in the sense of taking the Holy Spirit as our Guide to avoid being deceived.

[editorial note added at a later time. I just realized that according to section129, Satan has a body since he is an angel instead of a spirit]

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished. HC 5: 267.
1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

23 Responses to “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation.. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”

  1. Daniel says:

    You have grossly misunderstood your scriptures, NONE of the servants of Satan will EVER recieve a body as a result of their decision PRIOR to Adam.

    Evil men ambitious of power such as your example of Hitler, are men who accepted the plan of Christ who were later, HERE (in the flesh) TEMPTED BY Satans Demons (spirits) you know,(The 3rd Part,who have been here from the begining of this Planet.

    Daniel

  2. Daniel-

    I found your discourse on why you disagree with my interpretation of all of the scriptures I quoted along with how you interpret them more correctly, to be less than compelling.

    Watcher.

  3. […] “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon th… […]

  4. ~Nightswolf~ says:

    […] “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon th… […]

  5. stockoneder says:

    Great post with lots to think about. I never thought third didn’t mean A third but you are correct third could mean even as little as 1%. I did a key word search on third part and got lots of references and you can easily make the case in most of them it doesn’t mean one third.
    Satan has a body? It sounds like JS said he could appear as an angel of light but if you shook his hand you wouldn’t feel it thus he would be only imitating an angel and not really be one. So maybe he doesn’t have one yet?
    And why would satan be so stupid as to shake your hand in the above mentioned situation now that the word is out? You would think he would just refuse and pretend to be the spirit of a just man made perfect and deliver his message.
    The reference to satan being cast out of the grave is pretty compelling along with His seed being on the earth.
    I have always thought the spirits who followed him in the pre-existence must have been very foolish or misinformed to blow the chance at getting a perfect immortal body by not choosing to come to earth. Why do that and what would they have been offered instead which was better?
    And like you said there are some truly evil people in this world and it is hard to believe they were once righteous.
    I have ‘read’ all the scriptures some of them many, many times like the BOM but some of the scriptures you quote seem entirely new to me. I guess that shows there is a huge difference between reading vs studying and pondering.

  6. Fusion says:

    Stockoneder,

    What you say above has also left me quite confused at Joseph’s words. Why would Satan attempt to shake our hand if he is a spirit and knows we can now easily identify his lack of physicality in the handshake? It would be the easiest thing in the world to simply preten he is a messenger who can’t or won’t shake the hand. Call him anything, but surely the god of this world does not have a reputation of being anything but shrewd and cunning beyond measure..

    One thing I may have gotten from JS’ words is that Satan doesn’t YET have a body…

    Elaborations, Watcher?

  7. I agree with both of you. I have always been mystified by the shaking hands deal…. seems kind of silly to me..

    It seems to me there is compelling evidence that Satan has a body during this probation at some point in time… When and how it all takes place, I don’t know.

  8. Fusion says:

    If anything, I think i am gonna claim Ezekiel 14 on this teaching- I think it may be a couple of things- that JS was in his rock-star-in-nauvoo stage, in other words, not really inspired anymore but just speaking for the sake of holding onto his pre-fallen prophet mantle, or he was giving the itching ears exactly what they wanted.

    A third possibility is that the this was recorded wrongly or doctored somewhere along the line.

    Ironically, in that temple film Peter, who doesn’t yet have a body, somehow shakes hands with Adam!

  9. Fusiion-

    Both the Ezekiel 14 and the wrongly recorded possibilities have crossed my mind. It worries me for you that you think the way I do LOL

  10. Ryan says:

    Reminds me of what I read from John Widsoe in Evidences and Reconciliations (which is derived from BY discourses) that Satan and his followers beat up and take the rainment of those beyond the veil which allow for them to appear as angles of light.

    Now I’m not sure if it’s our robes or body/spirit that radiates the light.

    However, I once read in one of JS commentaries on the Bible where he had said something similar.

    This was before I took notes and kept them organized or I’d have the reference 😦

  11. Ryan says:

    It looks like I forgot to post these comments earlier…

    Very thought provoking, some of those scriptures are very convincing; however they go against what JS taught.

    We have Jospeh saying in 1843 that “the punishment of the devil was that should not have a habitation like men.” That those who come to this earth to receive a body “will have ascendency over the spirits who received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil.” TPJS p. 306

    Also this from TPJS p. 181…

    “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none.”

    “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power. This earth will be rolled back into the presence of God, and crowned with celestial glory.”

    I’m not sure how to take some of those scriptures with what JS taught.

    I do have to say I never thought of Rev. 12 or Isa. 24 as future prophecies, but they seem to be.

    Could it be that Isa. 24:20 is saying that Satan won’t get a body and therefore won’t be joined in burial?

    I do want to throw in a correction or two if I may…

    Anytime we have a long dash — in the scriptures it’s a clarifying grammatical marker letting the reader know that a definition or clarifying commentary is about to take place.

    I’d like to show you it in context of D&C 29:36-40 with my notes [in brackets]

    36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil–[clarification begins] for, behold, the devil was before Adam [before him in senority in the pre-earth life but because he rebelled he lost his place in line], for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

    37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

    38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

    39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet–[end of clarification and begins where they left off, but not after clarifying why the devil and his angels had to fall in order to tempt the children of men]

    40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.

    I’m working from my phone and hope this is all coming out clearly.

    One more scripture. You mentioned that the story of Job shows that Satan was thrown out of heaven. I’m not sure I follow. Especially when Job 2:2 says that Satan was already on/in the earth.

    2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 2:2)

    Help me understand what I’m missing.

    Thanks again!

  12. Ryan says:

    Fusion and Stockoneder,

    The devil isn’t compelled to offer you his hand. He just won’t remain perfectly still, he can’t.

    Here’s a quote from JS…

    “If from the Devil he will either shrink back from you or offer his hand, which if he does you will feel nothing, but be deceived.”

    Here’s where to find it…

    http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1840/Dec40.html

  13. Good research!

    Many of those could just be referring to whether he can keep his estate, not whether he initially gets one.

    Nevertheless, there does appear to be a contradiction with some.

    One needs to look at both sides of the issue and make it a matter of prayer.

  14. Jason says:

    Thanks for posting this discussion! I had been thinking a lot about this topic lately, prior to reading this post, and in addition to D&C section 129, I think section 76 sheds additional light on the topic:

    25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

    26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

    27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

    28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

    If Joseph’s use of the word “angel” in verse 25 above was intended to mean the same as the word “angel” used in section 129, that would mean that Lucifer was a resurrected personage in authority in the presence of God prior to rebelling against the Only Begotten Son. Notice that both Christ and Lucifer were considered “sons”. Perhaps being a “son of the morning” means one who was brought forth in the morning of the first resurrection and became a son of God?

    Also notice that Lucifer rebelled against Christ (both being sons) and that Satan rebelled against God and his Christ. Verse 28 seems to be starting a new thought unrelated to Lucifer. This raises a few questions:

    1- Is Satan the same person as Lucifer? If there is a Godhead consisting of 3 Gods, surely Satan mimics it. Just as Christ is often called “God” or “a God”, perhaps Lucifer is “Satan” or “a Satan” in the same sense.

    2- Satan sought to take away the kingdom of God and his Christ–Does “Christ” here refer to our Father’s redeemer, or our Father’s son, our redeemer? Notice that the verses prior to 28 refer to Jesus Christ as a son. Who would have given our Father His kingdom, if not His Christ, just as we must receive an inheritance in our Father’s kingdom through our Christ?

    Interesting food for thought.

  15. “If Joseph’s use of the word “angel” in verse 25 above was intended to mean the same as the word “angel” used in section 129, that would mean that Lucifer was a resurrected personage in authority in the presence of God prior to rebelling against the Only Begotten Son”

    Yes I think that is one of the strongest reasons for the possibility that Lucifer has or had a body

    It is interesting how some of the ancient texts treat Satan and Lucifer as distinct beings but LDS scripture seems to indicate they are the same.

    According to lectures on faith and other passages, the progression of the Gods theory taught in the King Follet Discourse is not true and the first, creator God has always existed and does not have a Father, hence, “his Christ” would appear to refer to his son.

    Great observations

    Thanks for your comments

    Watcher

  16. stockoneder says:

    After doing some searching regarding your idea of Satan being a resurrected being or an angel it sure looks like you are on to something.
    D&C 129 which you cited teaches us this:
    1. There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

    Revelations 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels(resurrected personages) fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels(resurrected personages), 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    JST, Revelations 12:8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels(resurrected personages) were cast out with him.

    D&C 76 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God(resurrected personage) who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
    26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning

    2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel(resurrected personage) who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

    Sure looks to me from the scriptures Satan and his followers were angels which means they all have bodies. So how did the church come up with him(and them) just being a spirit(s)?
    The four standard works seem to be in agreement Lucifer was a resurrected being who became the devil, don’t they?

    And then in Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    How do you lay hold on and bind a spirit?

  17. Fusion says:

    Watcher,

    Could you please elaborate more on Lucifer and Satan being two different beings? I have felt this in my mind many times but have always tried to reconcile it back to the scriptures we have.

    A random thought (but a long one): isn’t amazing how damn (or literally damned) confusing every single thing is? There are just so many variables, so many unanswered questions about the whole reason for existence and the Gospel itself.

    On the one hand which is more worthy unto God: Believing in him and just trying to find him in your own life in your own way and according to your understanding, and thru experiences that point towards He being there, thereby not relying on any arm of flesh including those who have claimed to be prophets in all eras- for who really knows but the very immediate generation that experienced these things firsthand- ie those who saw Jesus in the Old and New worlds at the meridian of time?

    Or, is it better to believe what is offered to you in the guise of religion and scriptures from unknowns in ancient times, which usually is in the hands of those that use it to oppress and milk the poor and feed themselves?

    I, for the first time in a long time, and astonished how difficult the entire concept of reaching God is. Billions of us are just lost, confused and without any hope. So we labour in this system that is presented to us- Babylon- for there is literally no other way- no manna, no Spirit healing us and nothing miraculous whatsoever.

    We have almost a 1,900 year stretch where the Lord appears and stupifyingly in a blink of an eye all generations that follow are drowning in spiritual quicksand because of that generation’s rejection of the Gospel! It is insane! By default we are damned, even if we didn’t wilfully reject His reaching out to us. It is getting harder and harder to comprehend. I mean the level of contention and confusion is exponentially greater than ever. Especially amongst those of the Restoration. The you’s and the I’s.

    Do I know He is there? yes, I do. I have felt His presence through certain experiences- some may refer to them as coincidences…I CHOOSE to believe in Him and thus am reaching out to Him, to know Him and to love Him and to utterly believe that all good things in my life are because of Him directly, and all bad isn’t, but I am confused how if the whole purpose is to come here and find Him, that we simply do not find Him! The non-believer and the believer are no different in all (un)certain terms. Unless of course, we have all got it wrong, and Denver Snuffer has it right…*sigh*

    Apart from a literal handful who claim to have seen Him, which is a ridiculously minuscule percentile- more people win the Lotto- and there are a couple of billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and a whole lot of others who are as convinced that they have the entire truth as a tiny percent of Restoration folks do…and NO ONE is yet demonstrating ANYTHING remotely close to what the early Christians and New World folks at Bountiful claimed. And, how could they NOT have believed…after all, they experienced it FIRSTHAND! How can we be in this awful situation when we DID NOT spit on our Lord, nor hate Him, nor reject Him, nor turn away so we can fill our greedy hands with gold and silver and oppress the poor and innocents!! ….ahh, it is all getting so damn confusing.

    If the Catholic spin that Original Sin is what we are all born with and thus condemned because of, is wrong by virtue of the Atonement and the magnificent doctrine in the Book of Mormon’s standards, then surely we believe the same thing in a similar fashion- that because of our first fathers of the Restoration circe 1830’s, all must suffer and be condemned, and continue in confusion and cognitive dissonance. I mean the repercussions have been terrible, polygamy, no polygamy, tithing and donations to feed to poor to billion dollar malls, our black-skinned brothers and sisters being so down-trodden for absolutely nothing that they have done, the damn list goes on and on. Some say priesthood absolutely necessary, some say Joseph and the others doctored all the Book of Commandments stuff to make it something it never was meant to be… to change ‘he shall have no other gift’ but to translate the Book of Mormon and give to the world, to ‘he shall have no other gift until he has finished the first task’…that is a HUGE change!!

    I don’t know…I love Jesus, and if I am weak and filthy, so be it for the Atonement of Jesus is the only thing I can claim as I wasn’t created perfect according to Ether 12:24. I am coming before Him in spite of all this, and yet the door remains closed. And not just for me, but all the un-countables throughout human history.

    It can’t be possible that NO ONE is able to get it right! Even among us Restoration peeps the stuff we all ‘know’ to be true is completely contradicted by another who ‘knows’ by the Holy Ghost something completely and utterly opposite to his fellow Book of Mormon-ite.

    O Lord, when will thou come out from thy hiding place? Why does it have to be this way??

    ps. Sorry for the rant Watcher…

  18. Fusion says:

    I meant ‘We have almost a 1,900 year stretch where the Lord does NOT appear, and then does, and stupifyingly in a blink of an eye all generations that follow are drowning in spiritual quicksand because of that generation’s rejection of the Gospel!’

    kindly fix that in my comment Watcher

    Thank you

  19. Wow!

    After reading your rant, I am going to take my lithium and aspirin and go to bed, I suggest you do the same!

    (it really does seem confusing and discouraging, when the light shines forth, it will all make sense… 🙂 )

  20. Robin Hood says:

    I think this whole idea is based on a false assumption. It is assumed that none of the wicked or rebellious followed Jesus in the war in heaven. I think that is an unsafe assumption.
    If you were determined to “enjoy” mortality by indulging in various activities (carnal lusts; sexual licence; greed……… it’s a long list) why would you follow Lucifer? His plan required that you would have no agency and you would be forced to behave. That would be no good at all! Therefore, you would be more likely to choose Jesus’ plan. Personally, I feel that those currently in mortality are divided into 2 basic groups; those here for the right reasons and those here for the wrong reasons.

  21. I understand why you feel the way you do, however, you assumption is that you understand what all of the issues were in the war in heaven. I don’t think any of us do. You are also assuming that people could hide the degree of light and darkness within them in that sphere just like people can do here. I am not sure that is the case.

    At any rate, the scenario provided in the post was based on scriptural evidence. I think you need to provide scriptural evidence if you want to debunk the supposition.

  22. Ryan says:

    Robin Hood,

    I don’t think that Satan’s plan was that we’d all be forced to be obedient. There would be no need for a savior in that.

    I believe that it would be more along the lines of what Korihor taught…

    17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime. (Alma 30:17)

    There is no sin, meaning no law to punish.

  23. sfort says:

    Our free will determines what happiness we will gravitate towards. Some of us will be happy in an environment not suited for another. Any kingdom inhabited will not infringe on the kigdom above; not because they do not wat to be there, but because it will disturb the eternal happiness in the above kingdom. Heavenly Father’s desire to is for us to be happy in any degree we choose. Would he wish we were all to choose his degree of happiness…yes…more freedom in the creative process. But our desire for owr own degree of happiness fits his desire for us. All children of the great creator are choosing right now their degree of happiness, some with, some without knowledge which is the the springboard. Where is this written lie and verse in the scriptures? It is written all over them in each of the prophets decrees throughout. This is the larger plan. The fight is not with them, it is with ourselves battling the arm of the flesh.

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