Does Section 84 Reveal that the Entire Church Fell Under Condemnation on September 22-23 1832?

August 6, 2018

Years ago, in 1984 President Benson made the following declaration:

In the eighty-fourth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord decreed that the whole Church was under condemnation, even all the children of Zion, because of the way they treated the Book of Mormon. “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent,” said the Lord, “and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon” (D&C 84:57). Zion cannot fully arise and put on her beautiful garments if she is under this condemnation. (See D&C 82:14).

(President Benson, CR, Oct. 1984, pp. 4-5)

A few years later in the April 1986 general conference of the LDS Church President Benson again addressed the topic and made the following declarations:

In 1832, as some early missionaries returned from their fields of labor, the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. As a result of that attitude, he said, their minds had been darkened. Not only had treating this sacred book lightly brought a loss of light to themselves, it had also brought the whole Church under condemnation, even all the children of Zion. And then the Lord said, “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon” (D&C 84:54–57 See Oct Conference 1986)


Apostle Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk at the Church Educational system Satellite fireside on June 1993 and quoted President Benson regarding these verses. He claimed that President Benson had declared that the Saints had brought the whole Church under condemnation and that it was still under condemnation:

” President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55). In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.”

Those declarations from President Benson created somewhat of a controversy among gospel scholars and students of the gospel.

Much of his interpretation of those passages has been parroted by virtually all of the LDS fringe groups to show that the LDS church has been under condemnation since Section 84 was given in September of 1832.

Even leaders from other factions of the restoration have made similar interpretations of what was being said in Section 84.

In recent times people like Denver Snuffer of the remnant movement and Joseph F. Smith of the Brazil Plates movement have also quoted this revelation as evidence that the whole church fell under condemnation beginning in September of 1832 and has remained under condemnation until now.

That narrative is simply false and it shows that those who promote it are not intimately familiar with church history or the revelations that Joseph Smith brought forth.

While I personally believe that the whole church was brought under condemnation and even eventually rejected as a church with their dead during Joseph Smith’s ministry, I do not agree with the above interpretation of section 84 that has been embraced by so many confused people.

I will show that the entire church did not fall under condemnation at that time.

Quite the opposite took place, in fact, some of the leaders of the church were actually coming out from under condemnation at that very time.

During that time period, some amazing things were taking place that would lay the foundation for the Marvelous Work and a Wonder that is about to take place.

In this post, I am going to provide incontrovertible proof to show why the whole church was definitely not pronounced to be under condemnation at that time.

Clearly, the wording of the revelation can be confusing to those that are not familiar with the revelations Joseph Smith brought forth and the true history of Mormonism. I believe the Lord in his infinite providence intended the wording to be confusing for his own purposes.

Why does it matter whether the “whole church” fell under condemnation at that time or subsequently?

Two reasons.

One is that understanding this topic is critically important relative to understanding the events of church history and in properly interpreting passages of scripture that followed after section 84.

Secondly, we need to measure every man’s doctrine who is making claims to be God’s servant, to validate just how inspired they are in reading God’s word.

Many of us who study the scriptures and blog about our surmisings are simply trying to better understand the scriptures and we openly admit that we are on a learning curve with our understanding and we are subject to correction at any time.

Much of the reason we blog is to get feedback and cross pollination from fellow students of the gospel and we look foreword to being corrected when we are wrong.

However, those that claim to be special servants of God, such as President Benson, Denver Snuffer, and Joseph F. Smith, need to be held to a different standard because they are claiming or implying that they enjoy a higher, more intimate relationship with God and his written word.

Naturally, they should be more inspired in their doctrinal declarations and therefore they should be held accountable for the doctrine that they attempt to authoritatively declare.

The LDS church claims to be the only true church and standard with the only true priesthood keys for leading God’s people. President Benson and his fellow presidents of the church allows themselves to be sustained and revered as prophets seers and revelators.

Can that be possible when they cannot even understand a pivotal passage of scripture in the D&C?

Denver Snuffer and Joseph F. Smith are both in the process of leading their respective followers in an attempt to build a temple and establish Zion.

If these self proclaimed “prophets” completely misinterpret what the Lord is saying in a revelation, it should be a red flag to us.

The majority of this post will document the fact that the above interpretation is wrong and why the whole church was not being placed under condemnation.

First I want to point out that President Benson and many of the fringe groups often omit a very important part of the passage when paraphrasing it.

In the words of President Benson, “the Lord reproved them for treating the Book of Mormon lightly

That is a gross simplification and misdirection. Actually here is the list of complaints the Lord had against them:

  • Their minds had been darkened because of unbelief
  • They had taken lightly the “things they had received” (former commandments)
  • They had forgotten the “NEW COVENANT” that is contained in the Book of Mormon AND the FORMER COMMANDMENTS, not only to say but to do. 

As you can see, the Lord was not reproving the saints for simply taking the Book of Mormon lightly, with a remedy of reading it more often. The problem was much more serious than that.

The biggest problem was the taking lightly of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is clearly detailed in BOTH the Book of Mormon AND the revelations that Joseph Smith had received as secondary witnesses to the New Testament.

The revelations that Joseph Smith received up to this point in time had been referred to as the “commandments“. They would later be published as the “Book of Commandments“.

The saints were just as guilty of taking the “revelations” that would eventually be canonized, lightly as they were for taking the Book of Mormon lightly. In fact, in a later revelation the Lord would declare that those who take the oracles of God lightly will fall under condemnation:

And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house. (D&C 90:3-5)

The main point being made in Section 84 is that it was the “New Covenant” as contained in the Book of Mormon and the Revelations, that had been taken lightly along with the saints neglect in keeping the commandments contained in the revelations..

The Lord observes that the “New Covenant” had clearly been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the “things” they had previously received. 

A key to understanding that is in the term “new covenant” which is another term for “new testament“.

The meaning of the term “new covenant” would be obvious to a Biblical Christian but since Mormonism has become a cult, our minds have become darkened and we have become blinded to some of the most basic terms of Christianity. In some cases, we look past the mark and look for different definitions than what is plainly being offered.  By doing this we take lightly that which is being communicated. 

Prior to receiving the Book of Mormon, the saints had received the New Testament which is what their faith had been rooted in. The New Testament is a written testimony of the New Covenant that Jesus made for this fallen world.

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24

Moses is the mediator of the first covenant, or the law. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the new covenant. JST, Galatians 3:20

To suggest that the Biblical term New Covenant was somehow being superseded by a new and improved meaning, or that it exclusively referred to the Book of Mormon is truly embarrassing for those that postulate this notion. 

Even the “things” (revelations)  that Joseph Smith was bringing forth concurred with the orthodox meaning of the term:


69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. Doctrine and Covenants 76:69

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. Doctrine and Covenants 107:19


Once you realize that Section 84 was about taking lightly the New Covenant, the passages that President Benson misunderstood become much more clear. The term covenant shows up six times in the revelation. One of those times toward the end is referring to the “Old Covenant” that the Children of Israel had been under. The other five times it is referring to the “New Covenant” having to do with the atonement of Christ and the covenant he extends to them that repent and believe on his name. There is nothing mysterious about the term.

The Old Testament foretold about the time that God would make a “new covenant“.

31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31

One needs to understand that shortly after the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored and the office of high priest was instituted into the church, in June of 1834, the leading brethren of the Church were divided into two groups. One group was called to go to the “land of Zion” in Jackson Missouri. The other group was to remain in the Stake of Kirtland to preside there.

The bottom-line of the condemnation narrative in Section 84 is that Joseph Smith and his fellow high priests in Kirtland that were receiving the revelation were having the condemnation that they had previously been under, removed.

The covenant they had previously entered into with the Lord was now being renewed and confirmed by the voice of God out of heaven.

On the other hand, their brethren of the high priesthood in the land of Zion had taken their covenant lightly and they would remain under condemnation.


The Oath and Covenant was Being Confirmed with the Kirtland Brethren!

It is quite illogical to suggest that the Lord was pronouncing condemnation upon the seven elders receiving the revelation and the whole church in that revelation for the simple reason that the Lord was quite pleased with the brethren that had gathered during the first day to receive the revelation.

After explaining about the priesthood of God and how men can become the sons of Aaron and Moses and the seed of Abraham, and the elect of God in the opening segment of the revelation, (including the oath and covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood that these brethren had just received in June of the previous year), the Lord states-

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

 As you can see, these seven brethren who had previously entered into covenant with the Lord through the waters of baptism and then had their covenant confirmed through their Melchizedek Priesthood ordination that originated at the special conference at the Morley Farm, were now having that covenant  confirmed upon them by the voice of God out of heaven!

God was even giving the heavenly hosts and His angels charge concerning these seven high priests!

Does that sound like those brethren of the church were under condemnation?

What does the word condemnation mean?



1. The act of condemning; the judicial act of declaring one guilty, and dooming him to punishment.

For the judgment was by one to condemnation Romans 5:16.

2. The state of being condemned.

Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation Luke 23:40.

3. The cause or reason of a sentence of condemnation John 3:19.


God was not declaring these brethren to be guilty and doomed to punishment.

Quite the opposite.

It just does not make sense that these brethren who had just had the Melchizedek Priesthood endowment confirmed upon them by the voice of God out of heaven, were also being condemned in the same revelation.

If we fast forward a few verses in section 84 the Lord continues his declaration that He is renewing and confirming their callings as High Priests.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

As you can see, the Lord even explains the difference between the wicked and the righteous. The wicked (worldly) do not listen to the voice of the spirit, yet he was pleased with these brethren because they had chosen to unite in prayer and listen to the voice of the spirit!

The truth is that something very profound was taking place. It had to do with an intercession that Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church in Kirtland were doing for the entire church and the entire world. That is a topic for another day.

Nevertheless, it is important to notice how the covenant that was being renewed and confirmed that day was not only for the benefit of Joseph and his brethren that were receiving it, IT WAS BEING DONE FOR THE SAKES OF THE WHOLE WORLD!

And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

To summarize Section 84 as a revelation that brought the whole church under condemnation from that time forward, when in fact the New Covenant was being renewed and confirmed upon men that would impact the entire world represents a huge blind spot and lack of context.

Ok, we have established the fact that it is totally illogical that the Lord is pronouncing condemnation upon these brethren at the same time that he is declaring that he is renewing and confirming the New Covenant that they had previously entered into with God.

Obviously, this revelation has been misinterpreted by President Benson, Denver Snuffer, Joseph F. Smith, and a host of other false teachers.

Lets measure the word of God and parse what is really being said.

You will notice from verses 54 and 55 that the Lord is simply acknowledging that the elders receiving the revelation had been guilty of having darkened minds and bringing the entire church under condemnation IN THE PAST.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

As you can see, Joseph Smith and the leaders of the church in Kirtland were coming out from under the condemnation they had been under in the past, they were not going into condemnation.

In fact, in a previous post it was shown that in this revelations the word “times past” literally means “two years ago” meaning that it had been exactly two years previous since this group of seven men petitioned the Lord and received Section 29.)

In the past their minds had been darkened and in the past their darkened minds had brought the whole church under condemnation.

The next passage is now addressing a different demographic of the church and it is going to require some keyword searching to fully understand it.

56 And this condemnation [that you have been under in the past, still] resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

The great mistake people make when they read the passages above is that they assume that the term “children of Zion” has reference to the whole church and they assume that the holy land is all of Zion including Kirtland.

Those assumptions are incorrect. 

The term “children of Zion, even all..” has specific reference to all of those saints that were living in the land of Zion!

That is further clarified by verse 59 where the term “holy land” is a direct reference to the “land of Zion

The Lord was informing the saints in Jackson County Missouri, which was considered the land of Zion, that even though the saints in Kirtland were coming out from under their condemnation, the saints in Zion were still under that condemnation.

They were facing a “scourge and judgment” because they were “polluting” the “holy land” of Zion they had been sent to redeem!

Don’t believe me?

Keyword the term “Children of Zion“.

It will show up in two other revelations. Both of them are clearly using the term to refer specifically to those who were living in Zion, not Kirtland.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:41,81,85

41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened—

Doctrine and Covenants 103:35

35 Therefore, as I said unto you, ask and ye shall receive; pray earnestly that peradventure my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may go with you, and preside in the midst of my people, and organize my kingdom upon the consecrated land, and establish the children of Zion upon the laws and commandments which have been and which shall be given unto you.
 Shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Read both of those revelation in their entirety for context if you cannot tell from the verses alone.

Having established the fact that “children of Zion” refers to those that went to the land of Zion, now lets fast forward to section 105 where it becomes apparent that the condemnation pronounced in section 84 was directed at those that became the “afflicted peoplethat would be cast out of  Zion because they were transgressing and not being obedient at the time section 84 was being given.

It did not apply to the leaders of the church in Kirtland

1 Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people

2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.

3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;

4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.

6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;

 As you can see, the first elders of the church in Kirtland were not under the condemnation that had been pronounced.

Shortly after section 84 pronounced condemnation upon the “children of zion“, another revelation was given to the leaders of the church in Kirtland in which the Lord revealed that He was “pleased” with their desire to assemble to receive the will of the Lord. See Section 88.

He declared that “the angels rejoice over them“.

Does that sound like they were in a state of condemnation?

He informs them that the alms of their prayers have been recorded in the “names of the sanctified“.

Does that sound like they are condemned?

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:

2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son

I don’t think the Lord would be sending “another comforter” and the “promise of eternal life” upon the high priests in Kirtland if they were under condemnation.

As soon as Joseph Smith received Section 88, he sent it to the high priests in the land of Zion because they had been making accusations against him. He wanted to provide them with proof that God was pleased with the leaders in Kirtland.

As you can see, the whole church was not condemned from September of 1832 until today.

Those that have falsely interpreted Section 84 don’t really seem to be all that inspired and revelatory do they?

They seem to be oblivious to what was really taking place in church history at that time.

When Was the Whole Church Condemned

Having shown beyond dispute that Section 84 has been grossly misinterpreted by a host of false teachers, the next logical question is, did the Lord ever declare that the whole church was under condemnation during Joseph Smith’s ministry?

I believe the answer is yes.

The answer is found hidden deep in the history of the church and in the Joseph Smith Papers. It takes place when Oliver Cowdery is ordained to the office of assistant President of the High and Holy Priesthood in the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS:

Friday Evening, December 5, 1834. According to the direction of the Holy Spirit, Pr[e]sident Smith, assistant Presidents, [Sidney] Rigdon and [Frederick G.] Williams, assembled for the purpose of ordaining <​first​> High Counsellor [Oliver] Cowdery to the office of assistant President of the High and Holy Priesthood in the Church of the Latter-Day Saints.

You will notice according to that journal entry that the Church is no longer being called the Church of Christ anymore.


Because just months before this event, a special conference was called to change the name of the church to the Church of the Latter day Saints!

Here are the minutes of the meeting as contained in the history of the church.

“During a conference held on May 3, 1834, with Joseph Smith acting as moderator, “a motion was made by Sidney Rigdon, and seconded by Newel K. Whitney, that this Church be known hereafter by the name of ‘The Church of the Latter-day Saints.’ Remarks were made by the members, after which the motion passed by unanimous vote” (History of the Church 2:62-63). er, p. 73).”

As you can see, the name of the Church of Christ that had been given by revelation and was congruent with the New Testament Church and the Book of Mormon churches of Christ, was being changed.

The name of Christ was being taken out of the name of the Church.


Because the saints had failed to live the fulness of the gospel and were no longer worthy to be called by his name. 

The saints would later petition the Lord to reinstate the name of Christ upon them during the dedicatory prayer in the Kirtland Temple. (See 109: 79)

But I digress.

The beginning of the revelation that was received just prior to Oliver Cowdery’s ordination into an office in the Church of the Latter day Saints is provided below:

‘Verily,  condemnation resteth upon you, who are appointed to lead my Chu[r]ch,  and to be saviors of men: and also upon the church: And there must needs be a  repentance and a refor[m]ation among you, in all things..” See Joseph Smith Papers

There you have it.

The Lord pronounced the whole church, both leaders and members, to be under condemnation on December 5th 1834.

It is interesting to note that God was still laboring with the church and giving them time to repent and come out from under that condemnation.

There is no indication after that, that the Lord brought the church out from under condemnation.

Those that are familiar with the true sequence of events realize that God secretly ushered in the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham and commissioned the Quorum of the Twelve to take the KNOWLEDGE of the gospel to the dispersed of Judah and the outcasts of Israel.

Nevertheless, the church was under condemnation during the whole second wave of missionary work that began during the Nauvoo era of the church. In fact, there was a third revelation in which the Lord pronounced condemnation. It was directed at the quorum of the Twelve apostles.

The revelation was received on  November 3 1835

 ” Behold they [The Twelve] are under condemnation, because they have not been sufficiently humble in my sight…but verily I say unto you, they must all humble themselves before me, before they will be accounted worthy to receive an endowment, to go forth in my name unto all nations”  

Sadly, those apostles did not get the endowment to take the “fulness of the gospel” to the elect of God as is prophesied of. That missionary work is yet future. Rather, they were given the mandate, while in their condemned state, to take the “knowledge” of the gospel to the Jews.

Shortly after that revelation, Joseph meets with the 12 apostles just prior to the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and tells them their minds are so dark that Gabriel himself could not help them comprehend the things of God:

“the endowment you are so anxious about you cannot comprehend now, nor could Gabriel explain it to the understanding of your dark minds, but strive to be prepared in your hearts”  (Pg 79 Unpub Rev):

Just before the Twelve crossed the great waters the Lord gave Section 112 in which he acknowledges that the Twelve are not even converted. Shortly after that, some of them would apostatize before the foreign missions even began.

It is remarkable to realize that the Lord commissioned his condemned church and their condemned quorum of apostles to take the knowledge of the gospel to the Jews! Very few people realize that the modern church that calls themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is largely composed of Jews that have gathered in fulfillment of prophecy!

To this very day the apostles in the LDS church appear to be condemned for taking the oracles of God lightly and misunderstanding them and using them to teach false doctrine.

But again I digress.

The purpose of this post is to discuss the true meaning of what was said in Section 84 and to point out that those that claim to be prophets have incorrectly identified the date and correct circumstance for when the whole church fell under condemnation.

By doing so, they have made it difficult for people to understand significant events that were taking place in the history of the church and they are making it very difficult to have the proper context for the revelations that followed Section 84.

This is all according to the providence of God who fortold that God’s people would be “Sleepy” “blind” and “drunk” in the latter days just prior to the true beginning of the Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

It is impossible to understand modern revelation unless you understand the true history of the church and the prophecies that related to the history of the church. Conversely, it is impossible to understand the true history of the church without understand the true context and meaning of the revelations that Joseph Smith brought forth.

It may not be insignificant that this condemnation upon the whole church is taking place exactly 3 1/2 years to the day after the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood at the special conference at the Isaac Morley Farm.

I think it is significant.

I believe the 3 1/2 year period is cryptically mentioned two times in the Book of Daniel

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the Saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (Daniel 7:25)

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished (Daniel 12:7).

The saints of God entered into covenant through the waters of Baptism. Following that, the Melchizedek Priesthood and Office of High Priest was restored to the earth.

It was restored exactly 3 1/2 years to the day, prior to the declaration of condemnation that the Lord pronounced upon the leaders and members of the church.


Because the New Covenant had been taken lightly.

The 3 1/2 years of spiritual nourishment represents the time when revelation was flowing and the fulness of the priesthood and gospel was on the earth despite the saints struggle to live it. 

Following that 3 1/2 year period of time, the whole church fell under condemnation and the heavens began to close and the power of the holy people was scattered.


The latter day corporate church and all of the factions of the restoration only talk about their claims of priesthood AUTHORITY because they have no priesthood POWER.


Because the priesthood power has been scattered.

three and a half years 3

three and a half years 2

We are informed in the book of Daniel that the saints would be deceived by Satan from the time the New Testament church went into apostasy until a 3 1/2 year period of time of revelatory nourishment that would take place after the church was restored through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith.

Following that 3 1/2 year period of nourishment, the “power of the holy people” would be “scattered” and the saints would be condemned and deceived again, until the ancient of days returns to the Lords vineyard.

three and a half years 4

This 3 1/2 year period when the restored church would receive and strive to live the fulness, and would ultimately cumulatively reject the fulness, was mentioned by Christ in 3 Nephi 16. He foresaw and foretold that the saints of the restored church would ultimately sin against and reject the fulness.

Are there any historical landmarks during 1834 that preceded the Lord’s declaration that the whole church was under condemnation?

Here is a very brief and incomplete listing of events relating to the entire church and church leadership being brought under condemnation:

February 24 1834 (Section 103) Conditional promise given, if Saints “hearken to obey all the words which I the Lord their God shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued…But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.” Who began to prevail from that time? Clearly, the kingdoms of the world have overcome the saints.

April 23rd 1834 (Section 104) The Lord announces that “the covenants [had been] broken through transgression. (This brings the two year attempt to live consecration to an end by the breaking of the covenant See section 82 April 26th 1832 and Isaiah 24)

May 3, 1834 (HC 2:62-63) Conference of the Church held ten days after breaking law of consecration and officially removes the name of Christ from the name of the Church and changes name to “Church of the Latter day Saints”. (The Lord had previously told the saints that if they did not obey his law and commandments they were not worthy to be called by His name)

June 22,1834 (Section 105) Revelation given to Zion’s Camp. The expedition to redeem Zion is called off. Because of Transgression-Zion and her laws must wait for a little season of learning and chastisement.

November 29 1834 HC Joseph and Oliver enter into “Covenant of Tithing [consecreation]” “for the continuance of [gospel] blessings“. This covenant was part of an intercession made on behalf of the Latter day saints that prevented the saints from being destroyed from off the face of the earth and enabled the completion of the Kirtland Temple and some very important events. It made possible the continuance of spiritual gospel blessings under the gospel of grace despite the breaking of the covenant of consecration by the collective church. It enabled the fulfillment of the prophecy, that the Lord would come “suddenly” and “secretly” to his temple after which the saints had the keys of the Gospel of Abraham and the law of mercy, ( see Section 110 April 3 1836)

After rejecting the fulness of the Gospel, the saints found themselves in the same situation that ancient Israel found themselves in when they refused to go up the mount and see the face of God.

The Old Testament records the fact that the Lord was going to wipe all of ancient Israel off of the face of the earth until Moses made an atonement offering in their behalf and pleaded with the Lord to spare them.

The same happened during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

He and his brethren were instrumental in receiving a priesthood endowment and having it renewed and confirmed upon them that would impact the entire church and world.

It was critical in providing an atonement offering and intercession that prevented the latter day saints from being wiped off the face of the earth for their disobedience.

This latter day intercession of the condemned and rejected church is briefly mentioned in the allegory in the book of Jacob:

49 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto the servant: Let us go to and hew down the trees of the vineyard and cast them into the fire, that they shall not cumber the ground of my vineyard, for I have done all. What could I have done more for my vineyard?

50 But, behold, the servant said unto the Lord of the vineyard: Spare it a little longer.
51 And the Lord said: Yea, I will spare it a little longer

Praise God.

During Joseph’s ministry, the trees of the vineyard were spared instead of burned.

According to the same allegory the appointed time is fast approaching when that same servant will gather others and return to the vineyard and “will labor with their mights” and the Lord of the vineyard will return to labor with them and they will preserve the natural fruit before the vineyard will be burned with fire.


Praise God







“And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.”

August 2, 2018

I had someone contact me and ask if I could succinctly document how and why the modern church has embraced the false doctrine that it teaches about the Godhead. (namely that “the Father has a body of flesh and bones“]

I will try to condense the issue and the important “take away” that we should get from it. (thanks again to “Josh” who brought this to my attention years ago.)

Point #1 Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants was added in 1876 by Orson Pratt under the direct of Brigham Young. Prior to this, Lectures on Faith was probably the most high profile teaching about the characteristics of the Father and the Son.

Point #2 The preface of Section 130 erroneously refers to the content as “Items of Instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet”. The truth is that some of the content in Section 130 came from a series of talks that Orson Hyde had given in the presences of Joseph Smith in 1842. It is Orson Hyde, not Joseph Smith, who taught that “the Father has a body of flesh and blood, the Son also”

Point #3 Following Orson Hyde’s address, Joseph Smith offered some private correction. According to Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, Volume 2 page 324, on April 2, 1842, Joseph recorded that he said to Elder Hyde: “Elder Hyde I am going to offer some corrections to you.” To which Elder Hyde replied, “they shall be thankfully received.”.

Joseph Smith then said “When he (Christ) shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he (Christ) is a man like ourselves.” – (Parenthesis added). On page 326 Joseph Smith documented the corrections that he made to the false teachings of Orson Hyde. Joseph Smith said: “There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven. Before the foundation of the world upon which all blessings are predicted and when we obtain a blessing it is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated. Again reverted to Elder Hyde’s mistake. &c the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit…”

In other words, Joseph Smith was clarifying that Orson Hyde”s teaching that the Father has a body of flesh and bone was a false doctrine. Orson Hyde had been correct about the Son having a physical body but was wrong about the Father having a physical body. Joseph was also clarifying that Orson’s teaching about the Holy Ghost being a personage of spirit was also false.

By making those two corrections, Joseph Smith was bringing Orson Hyde’s declarations into conformity with what had already been taught in Lections on Faith, namely, that God the Father is a personage of spirit who differs from the Son in that the Son has a tangle body. Also taught in Lectures on Faith is that the Holy Spirit is not personage of spirit, rather, the Holy Spirit is a spiritual essence and is the mind of God.

It is astounding and quite remarkable that after being corrected on these two doctrinal issues, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde and their brethren who became the  leaders of the Utah church would eventually canonized the false doctrines and claim that Joseph Smith had taught them.

Interestingly, the false doctrine in Section 130:22 that was canonized in 1876, would eventually be used as doctrinal evidence to bring into question the credibility of teaching about the Godhead contained in Lectures on Faith.

It became instrumental in helping the committee that decided to remove the Lectures on Faith from the D&C in 1921 (without a vote) to justify their actions. They felt that the teachings in Lectures on faith were not congruent with the teachings in Section 130 and that Section 130 trumped the teachings in Lectures on Father.

Hence a teaching about the Godhead that had been originally canonized by Joseph Smith, was removed from the scriptures and replaced by a heresy taught by Orson Hyde.

We have been warned that we inherit lies from the “tradition of our fathers” but we seldom evaluate how the traditions of our fathers get integrated into a religious system that started out with doctrinal integrity.

Well, know you know.

The Lord warns us in scripture that once his people reject a higher truth, God takes away from us the truths that we have been previously taught. This is just one of many examples of how this takes place.

When the saints of the restoration rejected the fulness of the Gospel, God began taking away all of the truths that had previously been revealed.

This is why virtually every true doctrine of the restoration has now been discarded or corrupted.



A Review of What the Book of Mormon Tells us about the Eschatology of the Latter day Jews: Part One

July 29, 2018

In this series we are  going to parse every major prophecy about the Jews in the Book of Mormon to show and document the true prophetic narrative about their restoration and recovery from their lost and fallen state.

I am going to detail the great mystery about the grafting in again of the Jews into the Olive tree in the latter days that is described in allegory in Romans 11 and Jacob 5.

I will show unequivocally that the true Jews of the end times began to be restored/recovered from their lost and fallen state and began gathering into the restored Church in America during the Nauvoo era of Joseph Smith’s ministry.

Also included in this series I will address the Blood Curse that is still upon the Jews and explain why neither Jews nor Gentiles are allowed to see the face of God or personally converse with him during this time of “hidden darkness” until AFTER the ushering in of the final great work of the last generation.

Much of the information in this series has been discussed before in my blog. This series is being provided primarily for the newer subscribers, although there may be some new information of interest to long time readers.

For quite some time, I have provided documentation to show that the heavens began to close upon the believing gentiles when they fell under condemnation in 1834. The heavens were completely closed by the time that the saints were rejected by God as a church sometime between September of 1841 and the death of Joseph Smith.

The Lord made it clear to the believing Gentiles that they had broken the covenant of consecration that they had entered into and failed to establish Zion and therefore, the fulness of the gospel could not be lived and Zion and could not be redeemed until after a “little season” of “chastisement” and “teaching” and “preparation“.

Doctrine and Covenants 100:13
13 And now I give unto you a word concerning Zion. Zion shall be redeemed, although she is chastened for a little season.

Doctrine and Covenants 103:4
4 And that those who call themselves after my name might be achastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not bhearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.

Doctrine and Covenants 105:9,13,21
9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

9 Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion—

10 That they themselves may be prepared, and that my people may be taught more perfectly, and have experience, and know more perfectly concerning their duty, and the things which I require at their hands.

11 And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high.

12 For behold, I have prepared a great endowment and blessing to be poured out upon them, inasmuch as they are faithful and continue in humility before me.

13 Therefore it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season, for the redemption of Zion.

As you can see from the above declarations from the Lord, Zion and the fulness of the Gospel were put on hold for a little season of chastisement and preparation. During this time, God’s people are to be taught more perfectly than they were before. After this little season at the appointed time, there will be an endowment and blessing that will be poured out upon those that are humble and teachable.

We are currently in a little season when the heavens are not open, a true prophet is not on the earth, and the gifts of the spirit that always accompany the true church are no longer present.

This is why the believing Gentiles of the restoration have not been allowed to see or directly converse with Christ from the time they were rejected as a church, up to this present time.

This is why they will not be allowed to see Christ until the true servants that still hold the priesthood keys return to usher in the dispensation of the fulness of times and prepare us for the endowment and blessing.

But what about the believing Jews that began to accept the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness of the gospel and begin flowing into the church from across the great waters during the Nauvoo era?

Joseph Smith referred to this second demographic in the second great wave of missionary work as the “dispersed of Judah” and the “outcasts of Israel“.

Why have none of them or their leaders in the LDS Church been allowed to see Christ?

It does not seem fair that the heavens have remained shut over their heads when the Lord set his hand to begin recovering them during the Nauvoo era.

Just because the believing Gentiles failed to consecrate and live the fulness of the Gospel shouldn’t mean that the second wave of missionary work that began during the Nauvoo era should result in the Lord withholding his presence from the Jews, right?

If you are wondering why the current membership and leaders of the LDS church that have descended from the New Testament Jews do not get to see and converse with Jesus Christ, I would suggest that the answer may be found in the following declaration of the Jews in the meridian of time.

“Then answered all the people, his blood come upon us and our children”

There is a curse upon the New Testament Jews and their posterity that has to do with the above declaration and their collective demand that Pilate give the order for Christ to be crucified.

The modern LDS Church is now inhabited by many of the descendants of the New Testament Jews who are now mingled with gentiles.

The New Testament informs us in three separate places that the Jews will not be allowed to see Christ until AFTER the dispensation of the fulness of times is ushered in.

The first passage is in Matthew 23:37 in which the Savior tells the Jews that they will not see him again until they see him coming in the clouds of heaven.

The second section pertaining to the Jews is in Acts 3:

In that passage, Peter informs the Jews that they should repent however, he informs them that despite their repentance, their sins will not be blotted out until the times of refreshing that will come from the presence of the Lord.

In a discourse given on May 16 1841, Joseph Smith made the following observations about these passages:

“Peter preached repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the Jews, who had been led to acts of violence and blood, by their leaders, but to the Rulers he said,

“I would that through ignorance ye did it, as did also those ye ruled.”

— Repent, therefore, and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (redemption), shall come from the presence of the Lord, for he shall send Jesus Christ, who before was preached unto you &c.”

The time of redemption here had reference to the time, when Christ should come; then and not till then would their sins be blotted out. Why? Because they were murderers, and no murderer hath eternal life.

On the 10th of March 1844 Joseph Smith addressed this same topic in another discourse and once again explained that the Jews could not have their sins blotted out until AFTER the times of refreshing:

“..the people [Jews] asked what shall we do, Peter says I would ye had done it ignorantly speaking of crucifying the Lord &c He did not say to them repent & be baptized for the remission of your sins but he said repent therefore & be converted that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, Acts iii, 19 this is the case with murderers they could not be baptized for the remission of sins for they had shed innocent Blood..

As you can see from the above quote, Joseph Smith clearly acknowledged that the blood curse was in effect and that the Jews could repent and convert, but their sins could not be blotted out until AFTER the times of refreshing.

This also applies to the latter day Jews that have been and shall be restored from their lost and fallen state. They had the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness preached to them and they were invited to repent and convert, however, they were not offered the ability to live the fulness and will not have their sins blotted out until the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Lastly, the third passage is in Acts 11 wherein Peter informs us that blindness is upon the Jews until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. God’s covenant with the Jews is that AFTER the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, in the third watch, he will send the deliverer out of Zion at that time he will take away their sins.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Peter was paraphrasing the prophetic words of Isaiah in chapter 59-

19 So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

20 ¶ And the Redeemer [deliverer] shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

As you can see, “all Israel shall be saved“,  because of God’s covenant with them, but not with the same level of salvation as the elect. The Jews will ultimately be redeemed after the “times of refreshing” and “after their pain” (see D&C 133:35).

This explains why there has not been a president of the LDS church since the death of Joseph Smith that has seen and directly conversed with the Father or the Son.

This explains why no Jew on the face of this earth has truly seen Christ since the he was crucified and no Gentile has seen Christ since the saints of the restored church were rejected as a church.

Clearly, no Jew or Gentile is allowed to see and converse with the Father and the Son at this time while the heavens are closed prior to return of the fulness to the gentiles and the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times.

This is one of many reasons why it is so easy to identify the false prophets that arise up and claim to have seen and spoken with God.

The True Identity of the Latter day Jews is a Mystery to the World

One of the very remarkable things about the Book of Mormon is that it plainly identifies who the latter day Jews are.

It reveals that the believing latter day Jews have been grafted into the latter day church.

Yet the false prophetic paradigm about the gathering of the Jews by secular Christianity is so strong, that even LDS scholars and students of the gospel are blinded to the truth and reject the true narrative in the Book of Mormon in favor of the narrative that has been promoted by the Catholic and Protestants.

They have actually been indoctrinated to believe that the gathering of the Ashkenazi Jews to the Old World Jerusalem represents the fulfillment of the prophecies about the end times gathering of the Jews in the Old Testament.

This means that the real Jews that have been grafted into the LDS church are unaware of their own true identity.

For hundreds of years the Catholic Church and many Biblical Christian prophecy scholars have taught that as a collective tribe, the Jews will continue to reject Christ as the Savior of the World even after they begin to gather.

Some believe the Jews will be the last tribe of Israel to repent and accept Christ while others feel they will never accept Christ in time to be saved.

These beliefs grow largely out of the account in the New Testament of the Jews demanding that Pilate Crucify Christ and crying out in unity that “His blood be on us and our children“.

This historical event has become known as the “Blood Curse” upon the Jews.

“The blood curse refers to a New Testament passage from the Gospel of Matthew, which describes events taking place in Pilate’s court before the crucifixion of Jesus and specifically the apparent willingness of the Jews to accept liability for Jesus’ death” (See Blood Curse in Wikipedia)

The following is a comparison between the KJV and the JSV of the Blood Curse that the Jews brought upon themselves:

blood curse.png

It is interesting to note that according to the inspired version of the Bible, Pilate would not allow the Jews as a community to take it upon themselves to punish or  kill Jesus.

“See that you do nothing to him”

Any executions must be performed by the administrators of the law of the land which happened to be Pilate and the Roman Government that he worked for.

This is why the Jews put so much pressure on Pilate to mandate the crucifixion.

Although some scholars argue that it really was not the Jews that actually killed Christ, but rather it was Pilate and his Gentile soldiers that technically carried out the crucifixion and are therefore to blame, the Book of Mormon disagrees, placing the blame on the Jewish nation collectively;

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God. (2 Nephi 10:3, 5)

So how significant is it that the Jews collectively demanded that Christ be crucified and unitedly cried out “His blood come upon us and our children“?

Were they correct in their beliefs pertaining to generational sins being past down?

Apparently Christ seemed to think there was validity to this concept of sins being passed down upon the children.

Indeed, speaking to the Jewish Scribes, and Pharisees of his day,  he declared that they were descendants of those who had killed the prophets anciently and that they would do the same thing their fathers had done:

Ye are the children of them who killed the prophets; And will fill up the measure then of your fathers; for ye, yourselves, kill the prophets like unto your fathers..”

This is a somewhat troubling concept as it may foretell what may ultimately happen to the believing Jews of this last generation.

As painful as this may be, this teaching is worth taking a close look at. Here is a more detailed snippet from Matthew 23:

23 Ye blind Pharisees! Cleanse first the cup and platter within, that the outside of them may be clean also.
24 Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but are within full of the bones of the dead, and of all uncleanness.
25 Even so, ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
26 Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
27 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets;
28 Wherefore, ye are witnesses unto yourselves of your own wickedness, and ye are the children of them who killed the prophets;
29 And will fill up the measure then of your fathers; for ye, yourselves, kill the prophets like unto your fathers.
30 Ye serpents, and generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?
31 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and of them ye shall kill and crucify; and of them ye shall scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;
32 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, unto the blood of Zacharias, Son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
33 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
34 Ye bear testimony against your fathers, when ye, yourselves, are partakers of the same wickedness.
35 Behold your fathers did it through ignorance, but ye do not; wherefore, their sins shall be upon your heads. JST Matthew 23

Although it is a wonderful miracle that God has extended set his hand to gather the remnant of his people that had rejected him when he came the first time, they have only begun to believe and live the fulness of the gospel. Sadly, they collectively appear to be righteous unto men, but within, they are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The True Prophetic Narrative about the Jews

As previously noted, the prophetic Catholic and Protestant worldview of the Jews in prophecy is radically different from the narrative that is revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

Nevertheless, modern LDS prophecy scholars have embraced the common prophetic view of the end times gathering of the Jews and discarded the one given in the Book of Mormon and D&C.

The Blind spot that Mormons have concerning this topic appears to be largely inherited from Brigham Young, a leader who rarely preached from the Book of Mormon and who brought many protestant notions with him when he joined the church.

Brigham Young was blinded to the fact that he and his brethren of the Twelve, along with many of the converts they had made from across the great waters, represented the Jews of the latter days.

Listed below are some snippets of some of the declarations that Brigham Young made about the Jews:

. . . You may break their iron bands, and set them at liberty, and but few of them will receive the Gospel.

Why is this?

Because their fathers heard the Gospel, and most of them rejected it; and the curse of the Almighty is upon them, and upon their posterity until they have wrought out their salvation by suffering; for the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

A nation which has had the privilege of receiving the everlasting covenant, and has rejected it, will be saved in the kingdom of God, but it will be among the very last which will receive the Gospel.

Perhaps you will marvel at this. It is no marvel to me, because I perceive natural principles and sound reason for all these providences of the Almighty. All His providences to His people upon the face of the whole earth, are perfectly philosophical. Then recollect, there is a chance for all who are honest in heart. What shall we do with those who are dishonest? Let them remain with the good until the time comes to cast them away, and gather out the good.

We might say much on this point, showing you why things are as they are concerning the inhabitants of the earth receiving or rejecting the Gospel. Do you suppose they believe in Jesus Christ at Jerusalem?

Can you make a Christian of a Jew?

I tell you, nay.

If a Jew comes in to this Church, and honestly professes to be a Saint, a follower of Christ, and if the blood of Judah is in his veins, he will apostatize.

He may have been born and bred a Jew, have the face of a Jew, speak the language of the Jews, and have attended to all the ceremonies of the Jewish religion, and have openly professed to be a Jew all his days; but I will tell you a secret–there is not a particle of the blood of Judaism in him, if he has become a true Christian, a Saint of God; for if there is, he will most assuredly leave the Church of Christ, or that blood will be purged out of his veins.

We have men among us who were Jews, and became converted from Judaism. For instance, here is brother Neibaur; do I believe there is one particle of the blood of Judah in his veins?

No, not so much as could be seen on the point of the finest cambric needle, through a microscope with a magnifying power of two millions.

This is a secret that you will perhaps find out, in a coming day, to your satisfaction. The Lord knew how to preach to the Jews, and told them what the truth was. You may as well undertake to command the most degraded of these Indian tribes, and give them arms and accoutrements, and try to put them through the regular military exercise, as to preach to the Jews to make them believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jerusalem is not to be redeemed by the soft still voice of the preacher of the Gospel of peace.


Because they were once the blessed of the Lord, the chosen of the Lord, the promised seed. They were the people from among whom should spring the Messiah; and salvation could be found only through that tribe.

The Messiah came through them, and they killed him; and they will be the last of all the seed of Abraham to have the privilege of receiving the New and Everlasting Covenant. You may hand out to them gold, you may feed and clothe them, but it is impossible to convert the Jews, until the Lord God Almighty does it..

 . . I would rather undertake to convert five thousand Lamanites [American Indians], than to convert one of those poor miserable creatures whose fathers killed the Savior, and who say, “Amen to the deed,” to this day. Yea, I would rather undertake to convert the devil himself, if it were possible.

Here are the Lamanites. . . . Their wickedness was not so great as those who slew the Son of God. Jesus revealed himself to them after he was slain, preached to them the Gospel. But in the fourth generation the Priesthood was driven from their midst, and after that, the laws, ordinances, and power of the Gospel ceased to be with them.

Is their curse as great as that of those in Palestine? No, it is light, in comparison. They began to thirst for each other’s blood, and massacred each other, from generation to generation, until they sunk into wickedness, and evil principles the most degrading, and have become loathsome and vile. Still, the curse will be removed from them before it will be removed from the children of Judah; and they will become “a white and delightsome people.”

. . . I say to all the Elders who are in lands where the Gospel has been preached previous to our day, come away from that people, and leave them to live and die in their sins and ignorance. For the sins of their fathers are a sweet morsel to them, and they take pleasure in their wickedness; therefore, let them alone, and come home, and preach to the Lamanites.

As you can see, Brigham Young feels similarly about the Jews as do many Catholic and Protestant prophecy scholars.

Remarkably, there is quite a bit of truth in his words which are mingled among falsehood.

Suffice it to say, Brigham shared many beliefs about the Jews with his Protestant and Catholic brethren. Because of these foundational beliefs, the whole Christian world has been duped into thinking that the unbelieving Ashkenazi Jews that began gathering to the Old World Jerusalem in 1947-8 are the true remnants of Judah and that they are fulfilling prophecy by gathering to the Jerusalem of the Old World.

Of course that prophetic narrative is in complete conflict with the prophetic narrative in the Book of Mormon that informs us that the Jews of the latter days will begin to believe in Christ BEFORE they gather and that they will gather to America in the latter days, not to the Jerusalem of the Old World.

The True Prophetic Narrative of the Jews

It is difficult to understand why LDS scholars accept the orthodox interpretation of biblical prophecy of apostate Christianity regarding the restoration of the Jews in the latter days,  given the glaring contradictions that narrative has with the scriptures Joseph Smith brought forth.

In this series we are going to parse out the true eschatology as it pertains to the Jews primarily using the Book of Mormon.

We will begin by acknowledging the words of Peter in Romans 11 as he speaks of the great mystery of how God would miraculously set his hand a second time in gathering his chosen people in the end times.

His use of allegory would refer to the House of Israel as an Olive tree and the Jews would represent a branch of the tree that would be grafted back into the larger tree during the last days.

Peter begins his discourse by informing his listeners that God has not cast away the Jews who had rejected him-

 “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..”

Peter informs his believing listeners that they were the “elect” of God among the gentiles and that their Jewish brethren who had rejected the message of salvation had been temporarily “blinded” and given the “spirit of slumber” by the Lord.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Peter explains that the temporary stumbling of the Jews resulted in the message of salvation coming to the Gentiles by provoking them to jealousy

 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Peter then warns the Gentiles against pride and counsels them to not “boast.. against the branches” that had been cut off so that the gentile branches could be “grafted in“.

Peter informs his Gentile listeners that God is still able to graft the Jewish branches back into the tree. “for God is able to graft them in again“.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Peter then sums up the great mystery that he is revealing to them. He informs them that the Jews will have “blindness in part” until the “fulness of the Gentiles be come in

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We know from the Book of Mormon and latter day revelation that the fulness of the Gentiles comes in twice.

The first time was at the end of the 1st watch, during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

When Joseph Smith was visited by the angel that told him about the plates he was informed that the fulness of the gentiles was soon to come in.

“He.. stated that the fulness of the Gentiles was soon to come in” (JSH 1:41)

It did come in and many wonderful things were accomplished but it ultimately ended in failure to live consecration and redeem Zion.

The second and last time that the gentiles will received the fulness of the gospel will be in the third watch in the last generation which some of us believe we are currently living in. This time it will be successful.

Even though the Gentiles failed in their first attempt at living the fulness and redeeming Zion, the fulness of the Gentiles will come in again. After this happens and the dispensation of the fulness of times is ushered in, the blindness will finally be taken off of the believing Jews.

The Jews finally began to believe and gather in from their lost and fallen state after the Gentiles rejected the fulness during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

A summary of what Peter said in Acts 11 is cryptically given in D&C 45. Section 45 is a prophecy with a dual fulfillment.

It informs us that the Jews would be in a scattered state both times that the fulness of the gospel would come in among the Gentiles.

The first fulfillment of the prophecy took place during Joseph Smith’s ministry among the gentiles during the Kirtland era:

24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;

25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain [scattered] until the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As you can see, the Jews of the latter days were to be in a scattered state when the Lord began restoring the fulness of the Gospel among the latter day Gentiles through Joseph Smith.

Once the Gentiles failed to establish Zion and rejected the fulness of the gospel by the end of 1834, the Jews could finally begin to be gathered again.

At that time, the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that something new must be done for the salvation of the church. He announced that missionaries would be sent across the great waters. This began the gathering of the Jews who had been scattered among all nations.

We shall return to the prophetic snippet from Section 45 later in this post.

When Joseph Smith said that something new must be done for the salvation of the church, he was referring to the beginning of the grafting in of the Jews into the Olive Tree and the great promise that God would one day set his hand to recover his people who had rejected his message in the meridian of time

God Sets His Hand Two Times

At this time I am going to suggest a radical interpretation of the prophecies that refer to God setting his hand the second time to gather his people.

First of all, I believe “his people” in this context refers primarily to the Jews from Judah and only secondly to some other remnants of the House of Israel.

Next, I am going to suggest that the first time that he set his hand to recover his people was not in the meridian of time.

The Jews did not need to be gathered during the meridian of time. They had already gathered to Jerusalem when Christ came into the world. Therefore God did not need to set his hand during the meridian of time to reclaim his scattered people.

The first time that the scattered Jews needed to be gathered was during Joseph Smith’s ministry when he revealed that something new must be done for the salvation of the church. At that point, God set his hand the first time and the Jews began to believe and be gathered to the covenant land of America. This initial grafting in of the House of Israel into the Olive tree is spoken of in the allegory given in Jacob 5.

It was also prophesied of by Christ in 3rd Nephi. He revealed that AFTER the judgments of God would fall upon his people of the House of Israel causing them to be smitten and afflicted, the gentiles would receive and reject the fulness of the Gospel.

After the Gentiles reject the fulness, God would take it from among the Gentiles and remember his covenant with his scattered people again. At that time they would receive the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness of the gospel:

 9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel… and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 …but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

The Latter day Jews are Once Again Scattered

Fast forward to our present day as we are getting ready for the return of God’s true servants. Since the modern church no longer teaches the principle of a physical gathering and has established Stakes all over the world and told the membership that they can scatter into the world and live anywhere they choose, the latter day Jews of the latter day church are once again in a scattered condition.

Since they have embraced the precepts of men instead of believing the scriptures, they are oblivious to who they are and which tribe they come from. Hense, they are once again in a lost and fallen state as well as being scattered.

In the third watch, AFTER the true servants of God return and usher in the fulness of times, God will once again begin to recover his people from their lost and fallen state THE SECOND TIME during the Marvelous Work and a Wonder!

Notice the chronology of the following prophetic narrative from the Book of Mormon which shows that the second time that God gathers his lost and fallen people takes place during the Marvelous Work and a Wonder!:

14 And behold it shall come to pass that after the Messiah hath risen from the dead, and hath manifested himself unto his people, unto as many as will believe on his name, behold, Jerusalem shall be destroyed again; for wo unto them that fight against God and the people of his church.

15 Wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations.

16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind—and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.

17 And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.

18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.

19 For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

I would suggest that the following chronology of events can be found in the above passages.

1- Messiah arises from the dead and appears to those that believe

2- Jerusalem is destroyed the second time.

3- The Jews are scattered

4- God will scourge the Jews from generation to generation until they BEGIN to believe in Christ (This leads up to the first time God sets his hand to recover his people during the Nauvoo period)

5- AFTER the Lord begins to recover his people during the Nauvoo period, “the day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.

As you can see, it is sometime AFTER the first attempt to recover his people during the Nauvoo era, that God’s people will finally worship God properly, with pure hearts and clean hands.

Finally AFTER God’s people the Jews finally begin to worship the true Christ, God will “set his hand the second time to recover his people”.

During the meridian of time the Jews were already a gathered people.

God set his hand the first time to reclaim them during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

It is during the second time that God sets his hand to gather his people that the marvelous work and a wonder takes place.

It may seem odd that the Jews and the entire world are oblivious to who the real Jews are and that God has set his hand the second time to gather them. Yet we are informed in modern revelation that “God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons” and “to blind their minds, that they may not understand his marvelous workings

Truly God has blinded our minds for four generations about what really happened during Joseph Smith’s prophetic ministry and who the real Jews are that have already begun to believe in Christ.

Yet in his mercy, he is now beginning to reveal things that have been hidden in the past.

A great example of this is found In D&C 98:16-17.

Those passages reveal a great secret.

They reveal another more specific meaning to Malachi’s prophetic observation about the who the children of the fathers really are:

“ diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children; And again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets, and the prophets unto the Jews; lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse, and all flesh be consumed before me.



The Set Time had Arrived

From that, we realize that when Elijah secretly appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple to declare that “the time has fully come” spoken of by Malachi.

Some very important was taking place that needed to happen BEFORE the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” (the Marvelous Work and the ushering in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times).

What was it that needed to be happening BEFORE God set his hand the SECOND TIME to restore his people?

He first needed to begin restoring them the FIRST TIME!

This would begin the process of turning the hearts of the Prophets to the Jews and the hearts of the Jews to the Prophets!

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

This visitation and declaration from Elijah took place within a week after the saints petitioned the Lord to REDEEM JERUSALEM FROM THAT VERY HOUR and begin returning the children of Judah to the land of the Abrahamic Covenant where the Lord brought the Nephites and where he restored his church.

“We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob that Jerusalem from this hour, may begin to be redeemed.. and the children of Judah may begin to return to the lands which thou didst gie to Abraham, their father..”

Shortly after that, Joseph Smith commissioned the apostles by revelation to began the taking of the KNOWLEDGE of the gospel across the great waters to the Jews, or as Joseph Smith put it, to the “dispersed of Judah“.

Although it may seem strange that these apostles from the restored church were being used to begin the restoration of the Jews in the latter day, their responsibility was foretold in an earlier revelation:

26 And now, behold, there are others who are called to declare my gospel, both unto Gentile and unto Jew;

27 Yea, even twelve; and the Twelve shall be my disciples, and they shall take upon them my name; and the Twelve are they who shall desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart.

28 And if they desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart, they are called to go into all the world to preach my gospel unto every creature.

As you can see, as early June of 1829 the Lord was announcing that it would be the responsibility of the latter day apostles of the restored church that would be chosen by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, to take the gospel to both the Gentiles and the JEWS!

On the day that the restored church was organized the Lord revealed that Joseph Smith would be the first preacher of the restoration to both the Gentile and the JEW!

[Joseph Smith is] the first preacher of this church unto the church, and before the world, yea, before the Gentiles; yea, and thus saith the Lord God, lo, lo! to the Jews also. Amen.

In previous posts I have provided additional documentation regard the role of the restored church in gathering the Jews.

The Jews did begin to be “Recovered” and return to the lands of their covenant inheritance back during the Nauvoo era of the church.

Sadly, according to the testimony of Paul, the latter day Jews that have been gathered into the latter day church are still blinded in part and will continue to be until the dispensation of the fulness of times comes in.

This is why the Book of Mormon informs us that the Jews only “begin to believe” in Christ after they are recovered.

7 And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people.

Because of this, they largely sit in darkness even though they have begun to believe in Christ.

Section 45 and other prophecies inform us that the believing Jews of the restored church will not comprehend the fulness of the gospel when it returns among the Gentiles because their beliefs have been built upon the “precepts of men“.

For this reason, they will not be able to “perceive” the light when the light breaks forth:

28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in [AGAIN], a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Other prophetic passages inform us that a small remnant of the Jews will repent and be numbered among the elect of God.

As you can see, the allegory of the Olive tree in Romans 11 pertaining to the mystery of how the Jews will be grafted back into the true church in the last days is summarized in Section 45.

It is also covered in much greater detail in the Book of Jacob in the book of Mormon which we have covered in previous posts.

In part two of this series, we will parse the cryptic eschatology of the Jews from the Book of Mormon to definitively prove that the latter day gathering of the Jews has nothing to do with the  Ashkenazi Jews that began gathering to the Old World Jerusalem in 1947-8 under the financial support of the Rothchilds.

Indeed, the gathering of the real latter day Jews began under the direction of Joseph Smith and the Twelve Apostles back during the Nauvoo era.

As a collective body of people that have BEGUN to believe in Christ, they call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

Keep Watching




Outer Darkness

July 25, 2018

I recently got an email from one of my readers. He shows a keyword search that he has done which is really quite amazing.

Here is the email I got from him:


Hi Watcher, 

I enjoyed reading your latest post…there is so much value in reasoning out the scriptures, even if participating vicariously. 

That post covered a lot of ground and there are several topics I need to go chew on a bit. But one really caught my attention because I’ve been working on it lately: Outer Darkness. The Outer Darkness I was taught by the LDS Church does not match the Outer Darkness referred to in the scriptures. I’d like to hear your thoughts on my analysis. (I’ve been working this up for a blog post, so if it sounds a little odd in places it’s because I got lazy and just copied and pasted from my work in process. I’ve highlighted in red several key words that are associated with Outer Darkness and they pop up repeatedly in the scriptures.) 

Ask a Mormon, “who goes to outer darkness?”, and you’ll most likely be told “the sons of perdition.”  These people, at the final judgement, will be deemed too wicked to receive a kingdom of glory and will be banished to outer darkness with Satan. Let’s see what the scriptures say. 

Alma teaches what happens after death for both the righteous and the wicked. 

Alma 40:12-17

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. 

There’s our first problem. Alma teaches that the wicked are sent to outer darkness BEFORE their resurrection. And he teaches that there are only two groups, the righteous who go to paradise and the wicked who go into outer darkness. He even goes on to clarify that while there are several usages of the term resurrection, when he says they remain there until their resurrection he’s specifically referring to the resurrection when body and spirit are reunited and we are judged.

Alma 40:21

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. 

So Alma seems to think that outer darkness is where the wicked are sent to await the final judgement, not where a handful of really, really bad people are sent after they have been judged. 

In Doctrine and Covenants 133, the Lord is talking about the Second Coming. Near the end, he begins talking about the fate of the wicked who are alive at the time of the Second Coming.

D&C 133:63

63 And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people.

64 And also that which was written by the prophet Malachi: For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

65 Wherefore, this shall be the answer of the Lord unto them:

66 In that day when I came unto mine own, no man among you received me, and you were driven out.

67 When I called again there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver.

68 Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, and die for thirst.

69 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.

70 And this shall ye have of my hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow.

71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.

73 These shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth. 

According to D&C 133, those that go away into outer darkness are the ones that did not listen to God or his servants. They will be cut off from the righteous and delivered over unto darkness. While not stated specifically, it would appear that this is the beginning of the Millennium when Satan and his followers are bound for a thousand years. There is no talk of resurrection and judgement before they are sent to outer darkness. 

In D&C 101, the Lord tells the church to importune at the feet of government leaders for protection from their enemies. If the leaders don’t act, the leaders will suffer for their choices.

D&C 101:89-91

89 And if the president heed them not, then will the Lord arise and come forth out of his hiding place, and in his fury vex the nation;

90 And in his hot displeasure, and in his fierce anger, in his time, will cut off those wicked, unfaithful, and unjust stewards, and appoint them their portion among hypocrites, and unbelievers;

91 Even in outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth. 

If only Sons of Perdition, who have had the fullness of the Father and then rejected it, go to Outer Darkness, the leaders of the US government in the 1830s and 1840s definitely don’t qualify as Sons of Perdition. Yet the Lord says those government officials will go to outer darkness. So we’ve got a problem. 

In Matthew 8, when the Centurion has faith for his servant to be healed remotely merely by Christ’s word, he compares the faith of that Gentile to the house of Israel and says:

Matthew 8:12

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

Surely anyone who lacked adequate faith to have a miracle doesn’t qualify as a Son of Perdition. If so, then I’m doomed. 

When Christ tells the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22, the guest who is not wearing the wedding clothes is discovered.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

In Matthew 25, Christ tells the story of the unprofitable servant. Whereas the first two servants provide an increase and receive a reward, this third servant, who didn’t squander the Lord’s money but merely didn’t do anything with it, is cast into outer darkness:

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

So the first question I have is: where in the scriptures does it say that Sons of Perdition go to outer darkness? 

I can’t find a single verse that says that. Section 88:32 only says that sub-telestial people return again to their own place. It doesn’t say what that place is. D&C 88:37 says there are many kingdoms but only mentions the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial specifically. I’m guessing there has to be more than just outer darkness for the Lord to say there are many. 

D&C 76 talks about the Sons of Perdition, but never says anything about outer darkness.  

Now let’s take a look at those word links: weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. 

D&C 19
2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—
3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth,
weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 

Those on the left hand refer to a binary judgement Christ performs at his return: the righteous on his right hand and the wicked on the left hand. No degrees of glory or different kingdoms yet. But those on the left hand receive weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, which the scriptures uniquely identify with outer darkness. 

Abinadi teaches about those who will weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth…and they aren’t the Sons of Perdition.

Mosiah 16
1 And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.
2 And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and
weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.
3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

Abinidi is basically saying that all mankind have qualified for outer darkness (where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth) and it is only those who have been redeemed of the Lord who avoid it. That’s consistent with what Jesus taught in Matthew, and what the Lord says in D&C.

This imagery of those on the inside being saved and those cast into outer darkness weeping, and wailing, and gnashing their teeth is common in the scriptures.

Luke 13
24 ¶ Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Matthew 24
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Here we have people who don’t appear to have done anything close to what Cain did who are nevertheless sent to where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (outer darkness). We’re back to the binary judgement that Alma and Abinadi taught. In Matthew 24, these are servants who stop looking for the return of their master. And their sentence is to be with hypocrites. D&C 101 (referenced above) says that hypocrites get sent to outer darkness. If hypocrites go there, there’s going to be a lot of people in outer darkness!  Just look at how many people Christ called hypocrites during his mortal ministry! Or Alma 34:28…yikes!


So help me out here. Am I totally looking straining at gnats or is outer darkness as described in the scriptures different than outer darkness taught by the LDS Church?

I shared the above email with my gospel scholar/ attorney friend in the Denver area and this was his response, which was similar to my own response:

This is awesome! 

I don’t remember ever noticing that the term “outer darkness” was applied to the post-death, pre-resurrection spirit world in the Scriptures, nor did I realize that the term outer darkness is never used in the scriptures directly in relation to the Sons of Perdition! 

Here is my take (buckle up, because this and a $1.50 will get you a cold Orange Fanta if you are at the right machine!):  

The term “outer darkness“ is not a place, or a specific doctrinal term, as we have come to use and think of it in the Mormon church.  Note that it is never capitalized in the Scriptures.  

Rather, it is simply quaint old English we don’t use anymore (kind of like “without a city wall” instead of outside a city wall) and is nothing more nor less than a description of something, in this case, a specific condition or circumstance.  

Looking at other translations of the original text is, in my opinion, again quite enlightening. Here are some other translations of Mathew 8:12 

“will be thrown outside, into the darkness” 

“will be thrown out into the dark” 

“will be thrown out into the darkness” 

“will be thrown into the darkness outside” 

And others that use the term “outer darkness” but add the critical clarifying word “the”-  

“will be thrown out into the outer darkness” 

As such, it applies perfectly well to anyone who finds themselves in the condition or circumstance of being outside of the light, or of a lighted place, and as a result, are literally in darkness.  

This would thus include both those who are in this condition in the spirit world while awaiting resurrection (Group 1), and also those who in the end, after resurrection and judgment, are ultimately found to be “filthy still” and end up in one of the kingdoms of darkness outside of the kingdoms of glory or light, as referenced in Sec 88 (Group 2). Both of these groups find themselves outside of the light, in the dark, i.e., in “outer darkness”. 

There are two places in the NT that  immediately jump to mind that vividly describe this circumstance with powerful imagery. One is the parable of the 10 virgins and the other is the parable of the wedding feast (which is one of the places where the expression is used).  

In both cases one is left with the powerful imagery of being left outside in the cold, miserable dark looking in at a warm, lighted place (symbolically the wedding feast / celebration of Christ and His bride the Church) into which there is no further entry permitted. On the outside looking in, as it were.  

What I believe few people realize, and apropos of the Scriptures we have been discussing recently, is that Group 1 is comprised of (at least) two different subgroups, and Group 2 is comprised exclusively (or almost exclusively) of sons of Perdition who became such not on this earth but as a result of choosing to follow Satan at a time when they were not blinded by any “veil” and they had full access to the Holy Spirit, truth, light and a full understanding of God and His plan of salvation. They “knew of his power” and were made “partakers thereof”. These are the Sons of Perdition.  

Group 1 is comprised of (a) the Sons of Perdition, but also (b) those who freely chose to follow Christ and participate fully in the Plan is Salvation, but then after passing through the veil, were not valiant and did not live either the law of mercy or the law of justice.  Rather, they lived the law of judgment and (will eventually) qualify to be saved in the Telestial Kingdom of Glory by the power of the atonement under the law of judgement. 

This next bit is pure speculation, but upon reflection, I wonder if there might not be a second way that people can qualify as Sons of Perdition in this life, even after having chosen to come and participate in the Plan but without walking by “knowledge” or “sight” here? 

Everyone has the Light of Christ. I wonder if it might be possible that one can continually choose evil over light (reject the Light of Christ within) so willingly, wantonly, knowingly and repeatedly, that it could qualify as putting Christ to an open shame and crucifying him afresh? 

Just a wild thought, but probably can’t standup in light of 76:31. 


BTW I found out that the guy who sent the initial email to me has recently started his own blog. You might find some of his posts interesting. I have not read them all and do not endorse anything he has written, but I am so impressed with his ability to keyword search and parse that I think his site might be worth perusing.

Measuring Doctrine





Wo unto Those who deny the High Priesthood and Office of High Priest

July 23, 2018

I have blogged about the controversial claims of Mauricio Berger out of Brazil who says he was visited by the angels Gabriel and Moroni. He says he has received the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. He now has eight witnesses from America that have seen and held the plates.

His ever changing and fantastic story includes the fact that he smashed one of the interpreters in a fit of doubt and rage.

He also claims that the Lord needed to use  a Brazilian like him to begin the last great work because there is not one righteous gentile in America to do the work.

After his claims were rejected by the LDS Church and the Temple lot church, he has sat around doing virtually nothing for over a decade while waiting for someone to show some interest in his story.

Finally, Bob Moore and Joseph F. Smith, two people from the RLDS tradition took an interest and decided to visit Brazil and drink some Kool-Aid with Mauricio.

Inconsistent with the Prophetic Narrative in Scripture

I have demonstrated in past blog posts that the claims being made are contrary to the prophetic narrative in scripture regarding the coming forth of the Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

The great last work of the Lord will come forth through the Gentiles, from the heart of America, God’s covenant land where Christ visited the posterity of Lehi and where the LDS restoration through the prophet Joseph Smith took place.

The last great prophetic work of God does not begin in Brazil.

The next translation to come forth will not be from the sealed portion, it will be more words of the Nephite prophets to the Jews and Gentiles and it will be instrumental in a mass conversion of the seed of Lehi.

The Lords last prophet that holds the keys to the things that are sealed will be the same prophet that began the process and brought forth the Book of Mormon. It will be none other than Joseph Smith Jr. the Seer.

Bob Moore has been Setting the Stage for this Drama in His Books

In previous blog posts I have shown that the emerging storyline with regard to Mauricio’s American counterparts, Bob Moore and Joseph F. Smith, coincidently fits the past prophetic surmising’s of Bob Moore who has authored books on prophecy and previously attempted to start a new church. He has been saying for years that a descendent of Joseph Smith like his contemporary, Joseph F. Smith, needs to be the prophet that finishes the work that Joseph Smith Jr. began.

Using the Hofmann Forgery to Fabricate the Gold Plates

I have pointed people to the amazing research done by the Price Publishing in showing that an entire segment of the Hofmann forgery shows up in the fabricated plates that Mauricio has shown to the world.

While important spiritual things having to do with God’s mysterious work should never ultimately be judged solely on empirical evidence, one should always be using a healthy dose of inspired logic and a reasonable degree of critical thinking in the light of scripture as they parse through the claims of those that claim to be God’s chosen mouth piece.

Judging those who claim to be Prophets according to the Doctrine they Teach

In this post, I want to focus on the doctrinal beliefs and declarations of the emerging prophet of the American arm of this new movement.

His name is Joseph F. Smith.

joseph f smith

Joseph F. Smith is a direct descendent of Joseph Smith Jr.

He recently conducted a missionary tour in Utah to proselytize the Mormons. 

During his recent trip to Utah, I had occasion to personally speak with him at a park where he was sharing his story and answering questions.

I was curious to see how well he was being received by the Utah Mormons so I drove down from Idaho and was riding my ebike around the park observing the very small group of people who came out to see him and hoping to hear in additional information about his claims.

Towards the end of the day, I noticed that he was sitting by himself as the group began to disperse and separate into a few smaller groups.

At this time I road my ebike up to the table where he was sitting and initiated a conversation with him. Of course he did not know that I am the “Watcher” and the writer of this blog.

We were both very cordial to each other.

I must say he is a delightful and very likeable person who appears to be very sincere and transparent about the work he is involved in. 

During the conversation he revealed some things to me that really shocked me.

He informed me that while in Brazil, he was commanded to return home to the Zarahemla Branch to see if he could find seven people in that congregation that would be willing to sustain him as a prophet of God.

To his dismay, when he returned home, Pastor Brad Gault of the Zarahemla Branch refused to bring that nomination to a vote among the congregation.

I was a little bit surprised that Joseph was sharing this very personal information with me and I was even more surprised to hear that Pastor Gault was refusing to allow Joseph to obey the mandate that he had been given.

I asked him why Pastor Gault was refusing to allow him to be sustained as a prophet by the Zarahemla Branch.

I told him that I had been under the impression that Pastor Gault was one of the eight  witnesses that had been to Brazil and held the plates and testified that the work was true.

Joseph F. Smith’s response to me was astounding.

This is what he said to the best of my memory. ( I am paraphrasing)

He said, “Yes Pastor Gault is a believer and one of the witnesses of the gold plates, but he and Bob Moore are scared of me and don’t want to bring the vote before the Zarahemla Branch”

Why are they scared of you?” I asked.

Because, he said, “They know that my prophetic calling requires me to set the church in order and they know that I do not believe in the office of High Priest and that I will do away with it if the Lord tells me to… When this happens they will be humiliated because some of their leaders have been claiming to be High Priests!”

Pastor Gault and several other leaders of the Zarahemla Branch, as well as some of the leaders of some of the other restoration branches claim that they have been ordained to be high priests. 

I was surprised at what I was hearing.

“Why don’t you believe in the office of high priest? ” I asked.

His reply was “I believe that Jesus was the last great high priest and there were not supposed to be any High Priests called after that”

Oh! I said, “So you agree with what David Whitmer said after he apostatized from the restored church and became critical of Joseph Smith. You think Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan in 1831 when he restored the office of High Priest!”

He just smiled at me with a twinkle in his eye.

(Those who are not familiar with the criticisms levels against Joseph Smith Jr. by David Whitmer can read his expose at this link)

I was flabbergasted to realize the this literal descendent of Joseph Smith Jr. had accepted the teachings (or at least arrived at the same conclusions ) of David Whitmer.

After David Whitmer apostatized from the restored church, he became disenchanted with Joseph Smith and he claimed that Joseph Smith Jr.. had been deceived by Satan into  establishing the office of high priest.

Here is what David Whitmer had to say about the restored church ordaining high priests:

“..the next grievous error’ which crept into the church was in ordaining high priests in June, 1831. This error was introduced at the instigation of Sydney Rigdon. The office of high priest was never spoken of, and never thought of being established in the church until Rigdon came in.”

“As to the High Priesthood, Jesus Christ himself is the last Great High Priest, this too after the order of Melchisedec, as I understand the Holy Scriptures….” (An Address to All Believers in Christ)

David Whitmer eventually claimed that Joseph Smith was only called to translate the Book of Mormon and that he was not authorized to restore God’s church nor was he authorized to bring forth the revelations that are contained in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Much of what motivated David Whitmer after the spirit of the Lord began to depart from him was the humiliation that he experienced as the officiating High Priest in the land of Zion when they failed in their attempt to redeem Zion. Another issue is that he was jealous of Sidney Rigdon who became a counselor to Joseph Smith in the first presidency of the church shortly after his conversion.

I have previously blogged about these events and the doctrinal errors of David Whitmer in the following post. See the following link.

Crushing David Whitmer’s Stumbling Block


As you can see, it appears as if brother Joseph F. Smith has been highly influenced by the teachings of David Whitmer which is really unfortunate.

Getting Sustained by Seven People from the Zarahemla Branch

I asked Brother Smith how Bob Moore and Pastor Brad Gault were going to facilitate  him in keeping the commandment of getting a sustaining vote of seven people from the Zarahemla Branch.

He informed me that Bob and Pastor Gault said they could comply with the commandment by simply getting seven sustaining votes from the eight witnesses of the gold plates to sustain him.

I said to Brother Joseph, “But there are not seven members of the Zarahemla Branch among the eight witnesses of the gold plates,Do you think that is acceptable to the Lord?”

His reply was an emphatic No!

He said he felt like that would be cutting corners and not  being strictly obedient and that would put them on the same path as the saints that became condemned during the ministry of Joseph Smith Jr.

Shortly after Joseph F. Smith returned to Missouri he gave a talk at one of the restoration branches and according to some testimonies , he publicly questioned the legitimacy of the office of High Priest in that talk as well, which confirms what he told me!

Why am I sharing this conversation with you?

Because we have a man in our midst who is a descendant of Joseph Smith Jr. who is claiming the role of prophet.

He is planning on setting the church in order.

He is teaching that Joseph Smith was deceived in restoring the office of High Priest.

It therefore behooves us to evaluate the doctrine that he teaches to see if it is consistent with the scriptures and with the true history of Mormonism.

Was Joseph Smith Jr. deceived when the office of High Priest was restored?

Here is the testimony of Joseph Smith himself about the event that took place in June of 1831 at the Morley Farm: 

the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the Elders. It was clearly evident that the Lord gave us power in proportion to the work to be done, and strength according to the race set before us, and grace and help as our needs required.” History of The Church, 1:175-177

So who is correct about the legitimacy of the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of High Priest? Is it Joseph Smith Jr. the prophet of the restoration or Joseph F. Smith his descendent?

Joseph F. Smith has just Called for a Solemn Assembly

Joseph F. Smith has just called for a Solemn Assembly to take place in August wherein I suspect he plans on having himself sustained as the prophet of the new organization in America. Perhaps it will be at this assembly that he will attempt to set the church in order and do away with the office of High Priest. 

I suspect that during the sustaining vote, he plans on accumulating at least seven sustaining votes from people from the Zarahemla Branch so that he can complete the mandate that he was given when he was in Brazil.

This is the announcement he has posted on his blog post

Joseph F Smith, Great Grandson of Joseph Smith Jr.,  calls all those who believe in Zion, and especially those who have an interest in the events transpiring out of Brazil, to a Solemn Assembly in Independence, Missouri.   Date – August 18th 2pm-5pm & August 19th  2pm-5pm.   Exact location -to be announced shortly.

The Restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood and Office of High Priest

The Irony in all of this is that Joseph F. Smith quotes from Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants in his recent blog post wherein he calls for a Solemn Assembly.

Section 84 was received by Joseph Smith four months AFTER the Melchizedek priesthood and the office of high priesthood was restored through the instrumentality of the prophet Joseph Smith!!!

If Joseph F. Smith is correct about Joseph Smith Jr. being deceived about the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of High Priest, then Joseph Smith would have been a fallen prophet at the time that section 84 was written and Section 84 would be a false revelation or at least its credibility would be very questionable! Why is he authoritatively quoting from it?

Of course we know that the revelation is true and it is one of the most important revelations ever received.

In Section 84, the Lord makes reference to the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of High Priest that had just been confirmed upon the seven men receiving the revelation.

He also gives a blood curdling warning to all of those that fail to come unto that priesthood that had just been restored:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you. Doctrine and Covenants 84:42

You will notice that the priesthood that had been previously “received” by Joseph Smith and six others,  and was being “confirmed” upon them that day, was being confirmed by the voice of God out of heaven, not by men or angels.

Notice the similar wording in JST Genesis 14 speaking about the Melchizedek Priesthood

26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name. JST Gen 14

As you can see, the JST version of Genesis 14 informs us that the Melchizedek priesthood COVENANT is not bestowed by man or angels but rather it must be bestowed by the voice of God from heaven.

Section 84 continues on to reveal a great secret.

It informs us that the Melchizedek Priesthood Covenant that had been previously “received” in June of 1831 and then “renewed” and “confirmed” upon them on September 23 1831, was confirmed upon those seven men not only for their own sakes, but for the sake of the whole world!

“…the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit;  and everyone that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit, cometh unto God, even the Father;    and the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world..”

As you can see, the Melchizedek Priesthood Covenant will eventually be entered into by everyone “that hearkeneth to the voice of the spirit

It is that Melchizedek Priesthood Covenant that enabled Joseph Smith and his brethren to lay the foundation of the church and of Zion.

It is that same priesthood that will enable Joseph Smith and the first laborers of the last kingdom to return and finish the work that God has given them.

The Book of Revelation informs us that there will be 144,000 servants of God that will be sealed in their foreheads:

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


In another revelation provided in the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord reveals that the 144,000 will have the Father’s name written in their foreheads:

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—

18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Finally, in section 77 of the D&C, a great secret is revealed. It informs us that the 144,000 will all be High Priests!!

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

The 144,000 servants of God are High Priests!!!

As you can see, the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of High Priest did not end with Jesus Christ in the New Testament. David Whitmer and Joseph F. Smith are wrong about that which shows that they are not being led by the spirit of the Lord.

They are teaching a doctrine of devils.

Very few people know very much about the true, secret history of Mormonism and about the true restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In fact most Mormons have erroneously been taught that the Melchizedek priesthood was restored by Peter James and John in 1830.

Without this knowledge it is difficult to have the proper context in reading the D&C.

If you don’t understand what happened at the special conference at the Morley Farm that was held in June of 1831 and the impact that that priesthood restoration had upon the restored church and will have on the entire world, you will be deceived by false prophets that don’t even understand their own church history.

The restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood was not Sidney Rigdon’s idea.

It was divinely initiated by the Lord.

In February of 1831 the Lord gave a revelation (See D&C 44) mandating that Joseph Smith and the leading elders of the church should be “called together” from the east, west, north and south. In the revelation it was promised that if they exercised faith, the Lord would “pour out his spirit” upon the assembly.

That promise was fulfilled and three people saw the Father and the Son and the Melchizedek endowment and covenant was bestowed along with the office of High Priest.

I have provided a series on what happened at the special conference at the Morley Farm wherein the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of High Priest was restored.

I implore you to read it and gain a testimony that the Melchizedek COVENANT and the  office of High Priest is to be bestowed upon all of the elect of God who are referred to in scripture as the first fruits.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



Searching for the Holy Order and 23 High Priests Part One

Searching for the Holy Order and 23 High Priests Part Two




Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Eight: The War in Heaven did not take place in the pre-existence… and “first estate” means mortal probation.

July 19, 2018

In this part of the series of highlighting some of my past blogs and articles (primarily for the benefit of the newer readers of this blog) I am going to direct you attention to the post I did on the war in heaven and the fact that Satan and his minions DID come to a mortal probation.

The teaching by the modern corporate church that Satan never came to earth to get a body and that those that followed him also did not come to earth to get a body is easily proven false in the scriptures.

You can read the article here

Another provocative article very closely related to it about the real definition of the term “second estate” can be found here.

Having directed you to those two oldies but goodies, I am now going to share some correspondence that I have been having with a friend who lives in the Denver area.

He is a mainstreamer although he claims that he agrees with a few of the things I have written.

We enjoy chatting about gospel topics from time to time.

He is a brilliant attorney who can still generate coherent thoughts with good logic despite having been trained in the schools of Babylon.

He is very knowledgeable in the scriptures.

He violently disagrees with my definition of “second estate“.

I love to be challenged on my doctrinal beliefs because it forces me to dig deep and revaluate my views. I never feel threatened about being wrong about something because I am much more interested in learning the truth than in proving I am right about something.

I openly admit that I am not always right in my doctrinal assessments and speculations and that I have been wrong before, and I admit that I am on a learning curve just like everyone else.

There have been times when my readers have been instrumental in helping change my views… (although precious few)

I think that having a lively discussion about doctrine is a good thing as long as nobody gets angry or personal.

Here is a portion of an email that he recently sent to me

Hey- I can’t remember if we ever talked about this – I am convinced that section 90 verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estatesand were cast out of heaven in the preexistence.  ( actually meant to say 88: 24, 32-35)
While theoretically possible, I seriously doubt that that there are any sons of perdition created in this life.  Example: Judas. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that would support him ever having been walking by “knowledge” or having sufficient light and knowledge to become a son of perdition. That status must have been obtained in the preexistence and he came to earth with it. Section 90 fully supports this. 
I’d love to re-read what you wrote in your original opus all those years ago on that topic. You made a compelling case. Did you use/address section [88]:24;32-35 there?
Did you ever blog about that subject?
Among other things It answers the otherwise troubling question why would Hitler and Charlie Manson types end up in a kingdom of glory?  Answer: of course, they won’t. 
It strikes me that might be a good blog series for you- revisit things you wrote in that first book in light of what you believe now – what has changed, how and why?Example: the doctrine that Adam was the Holy Ghost and Jesus acted in that role while Adam was on the earth. 


This was my response:

Hey- I can’t remember if we ever talked about this – I am convinced that section 90 verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estatesand were cast out of heaven in the preexistence.
I suspect you are referring to section 76 not 90. ( I was wrong, he actually meant section 88, it is just a coincidence that section 76 also is speaking about SofP)
Have you read my post on what first and second estate actually means? You might find it interesting. I don’t think it means what the church has indoctrinated us to think it means. The first “estate” takes place on earth, not in heaven.
Also, I stick with my belief that Satan and all of the third portion that followed him all came to mortality.
While theoretically possible, I seriously doubt that that there are any sons of perdition created in this life.
I can’t disagree… We are informed in the PofGP that Cain was a SofP from the pre-existence.
Example: Judas. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that would support him ever having been walking by “knowledge” or having sufficient light and knowledge to become a son of perdition. That status must have been obtained in the preexistence and he came to earth with it.
Agreed that it is difficult to find any damning evidence that would suggest that Judas qualifies as a Son of Perdition. He did not seem to have deep knowledge and he was truly sorry for what he had done…. he even seems to have exercised the Old Testament law of blood atonement upon himself. 
Seems like Peter was guilty of a greater sin when denying Christ. 
The Judas thing has never made sense to me. 
Interestingly modern revelation has Christ declaring that he would return with the twelve that we with him in his ministry…. would that not include Judas????
Example: the doctrine that Adam was the Holy Ghost and Jesus acted in that role while Adam was on the earth.
Yes I have certainly been on a learning curve that has continued non-stop to this present minute… I am continually having to revisit things I have been taught and taken for granted and then attempt to cleanse my mind of the bullshit I was taught in the church and from the gospel according to Brig. 
Did you ever read my take on Joseph Smith’s claim that the Holy Ghost had a mortal probation?


This was his reply

I meant section 88. (Don’t know where the heck 90 came from.)
Please read the cited verses carefully. 
They are truly Mind blowing and the most powerful scriptures yet that confirm your hypothesis that even those who were cast out of heaven and lost their first estate still had to come to earth and get bodies. 
I think the church teaches (I was taught) the first estate is the spirit body and the second estate is the physical body. 
This is nonsense. The scriptures (Jude 1 / Abr 3) are clear. 
The first estate is the heavenly abode with the father (that some were cast out of and thus “lost”).  
The second estate is this earthly abode that all but the sanctified will eventually lose. 
The verses i cited in sec 88, properly understood, can now be added to Jude and Abraham in giving understanding of this marvelous and illuminating doctrine. 
Can’t imagine who you could have concluded that he first estate is on this earth based on those scriptures. 
I will reread your post but now that you’ve been taught true doctrine I’ll be looking for a retraction / amended version. 🙂


This was my response

I’ll wait until you have read the articles and eaten a little crow before commenting.

It is such a coincidence that the verses you quote also address the topic of the SofP in section 76!!!!


This was his reply

I read the two relevant links – thanks for sending.   In “summary” (lol) – and with all due respect-

– Agree fully that everyone from (this earths) preexistence had to come to earth to get a body (that was an amazing insight you had – Your list of 6-7 scriptures that support it are awesome. I think you used those in your original book) 

Sec 88 provides perhaps most compelling scriptural evidence of all on this – that should be added to that list IMO. 
– disagree fully with your hypothesis on first and second estates. You are really reaching and “wresting” hard there IMHO!  You are ignoring scriptures which are quite clear and common sensical and using journal quotes from all the Brighamites (undoubtedly from the dark Nauvoo period) to argue against the clear scriptural meaning!?
 (Much of the “corrupting” of doctrine was done long before the “modern corporate church” arrived on the scene!)  Also many of those quotes (including Smith diary) can just as easily be used to support my position. 
Those who keep their second estate will be “added upon” – I suspect this means, among several other things, they inherit the second estate with the promised blessings of plan of salvation, ie, guarantee of a kingdom of glory, unlike those who lost their first estate (unless they become SofP which is virtually impossible for them, as already discussed). 
Occum’s Razor Brother! The simple, concise doctrine I have taught “fits” perfect, makes logical sense and has far more SCRIPTURAL support. 
I think you are also conflating the 1st / 2d estates doctrine with doctrine of demonic possession – two different things 
– Consistent with the doctrine that everyone must come to earth to get a body, but taking it one step further, when read closely, section 88 also makes clear that everybody will be resurrected and get a body. That’s what being “quickened” is referring to. But the resurrected sons of perdition will inherit a kingdom that is not a kingdom of glory. Amazing!
You yourself quoted the BofM scripture (2 Nephi 9) in the link that says “ALL MEN” will be resurrected and become “immortal”!  Of course!  Makes sense, because Just as with coming to earth to get body in the first place, it is part of the fathers plan
I suppose you could be right that their spirits and bodies are subsequently “torn asunder” but can you provide any scriptural evidence? Are you sure that isn’t just hangover from false church teaching on this whole subject?  Also that would make them less than “immortal”. 
– disagree, don’t understand and don’t get your obsession with this idea that the war in heaven didn’t occur in the preexistence wherein Satan and his minions were kicked out of “spirit heaven” (1st estate) and sent to earth (spirit prison – for them) and also their second estate, which they will inhabit as pre-mortal spirits, mortal humans and post-mortal spirits, until eventually losing it when they are sent to their respective kingdoms of NON glory. Just as those who inherit Kingdoms of Glory other than the Celestial will also lose it. 
(Fully agree that said war is continuing down here.)
BTW – I’d be careful about using the “touch me not” scripture since (a) it directly contradicts one of the other gospels (where resurrected Christ IS embraced) and (b) it’s a bad translation. The correct translation is “hold (keep/detain/delay) me not”, for I have not yet ascended …
With LOVE ! 😋


My response


In reading the one post on the second estate I noticed how I might provide additional clarification. I made the following changes, I don’t see how you can disagree with that.

The most powerful part is from scripture, not from somebodies conjecture. ”

I believe that the following passages actually reveal the fact that the first ESTATE refers to our physical tangible bodies during mortal probation and that the second ESTATE refers to the physical body after it has been quickened and added upon with glory into an immortal body of element.

Look closely at the following passages:

“24..we will go down for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 

26 And they who keep their first estate [from that earthly probation] shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.”

There is a progression of thought in the above passages.

First, a physical earth must be made from MATERIALS.


So that those being sent can prove themselves during their FIRST ESTATE!

Just as the term “estate” has reference to a material possession in this life, it has a similar connotation in the above passage. the “first estate” is the first opportunity for a spirit body to be clothed with a physical element in an earthly body so that they can prove themselves. 

I am not suggesting that there was no testing or taking of sides in the pre-existence prior to this life, (although it is difficult to prove there was) what I am suggesting is that the term ESTATE has application to the spirit body being clothed upon in mortality!


His reply

Amazing!  It’s like we’re both looking at that old picture (you remember it) and one of us can only see a beautiful young lady and the other can only see an ugly old hag! Lol. 
Let me recap-
1. We are in violent agreement that everyone who was in the heavenly preexistence for this world with the father had to come to earth and get a body.  Even those who chose to follow Satan (Perdition) and got kicked out of heaven. 
Also that the term “third part” does NOT mean 1/3, only that there were three “parts” (portions or groups) of spirits. Two parts stayed in heaven with God and one part got kicked out. That part could potentially be the largest of the three. 
2.  Per your post, you believe our first estate is the physical body we get here on earth. You have concluded this by interpreting the verses in Abraham leading up to where Satan’s followers are kicked out of heaven and lose their first estate as a chronological “progression of thought” and so, since the reference to losing the first estate is after the reference to the physical creation of the earth, it must needs be that that is the chronological order in which those events happened.
3.  I believe the “first estate” refers to two things: a) a certain domain or place we lived in or inhabited prior to coming to this current domain or habitation (earth), and b) certain rights or privileges we had, that were associated with or “part and parcel” of being in that  former estate or place. 
This fits well with all the primary definitions of the word estate:
1: state; condition
2social standing or rank, especially of a high order
3: a social or political classspecifically : one of the greatclasses (such as the nobility, the clergy, and the commonsformerly vested with distinct political powers
4: the degreequalitynature, and extent of one’s interest in land or other property
b  (1) : possessionspropertyespecially : a person‘s property in land and tenements a man of small estate
 (2) : the assets and liabilities left by a person at death
: a landed property usuallywith a large house on it
The thesaurus also lists as synonyms or related for “estate”: abode, domicile, dwelling, habitation, home, place. 
4. The entire book of Jude is a marvelous disquisition on the topic of whether the Sons of Perdition (followers of Satan) from the preexistence came to earth, and goes hand in glove with the verses in sec 88 and the ones you listed in your post to prove beyond a doubt that the baddies that got kicked out of heaven STILL HAVE TO COME TO EARTH TO GET PHYSICAL BODIES. 
5.  The scripture in Abraham must be read together and in harmony with Jude – the only two scriptures that make specific reference to this term I believe. And Jude couldn’t be clearer:  
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains”. 
They lost their estate, (abode, dwelling, place) or habitation, when they were kicked out of their heavenly home!
What is truly fascinating is to go back to the original text by checking other translations of Jude. These show clearly that “first estate” connotes BOTH a habitation or dwelling place AND ALSO certain rights or privileges associated therewith!  Check it out!
New International Version
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling–New Living Translation
And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. 

English Standard Version

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, Berean Study Bible
And the angels who did not stay within their own domain, but abandoned their proper dwelling, 

New American Standard Bible 
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, 

Christian Standard Bible
and the angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their proper dwelling, 

Contemporary English Version
You also know about the angels who didn’t do their work and left their proper places. 

Good News Translation
Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place:  

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and He has kept, with eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day, the angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling. 

NET Bible

You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, 

New Heart English Bible
Angels who did not keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And those Angels who kept not their Principality, but abandoned their own way of life, 

Many of these seem to be referring to some sort of special, privileged position or authority (eg, blessings of priesthood and/or gospel blessings??) that were associated with this first dwelling place!  
In any event, clearly there is no support whatsoever for the first estate being a physical body in this, the primary text on the matter. 
6.  Leaving all the foregoing aside for a moment, there is another major hurdle you must cross – not to prove your argument – but simply for it to survive at all so you continue to tilt at this windmill!
We both agree that all these evil spirits come to earth and get bodies. 
There are numerous scriptures that make clear that ALL men who live on this earth will be resurrected with mortal bodies. 

John 5

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 
Acts 24:15
Alma 40:26 
Helaman 14:18
Therefore, for your argument to survive at all (so you can address all the contrary points I have made above), you must prove from the scriptures that these resurrected immortal beings must have their souls “excruciatingly ripped from their bodies” (as I think you phrased it) after they are resurrected as immortal souls. 
I think the amazing scriptures in sec 88 clearly teach, when read in light of those referenced above, what “outer darkness” really is!
It is nothing more nor less than a kingdom (actually, innumerable kingdoms) of darkness (ie, not a kingdom of light or glory) where resurrected immortals dwell!  
They have suffered the second death, ie, living in a kingdom that is cut off from God the father, God the Son and God the HG,ie, a kingdom of darkness. 
Sec 88 also makes clear what losing the Second Estate is. That’s what will happen to all but the Church of the Firstborn (who will inherit this second estate (habitation, domain, dwelling place, abode) where we now dwell, yea, even this very earth, as a Celestial kingdom to live in forever), when they are sent off to a kingdom of glory other than the Celestial, or, for those Sons of Perdition (because they knowingly and willingly chose to follow Perdition (Satan) out of our First Estate), to one of the innumerable kingdoms of darkness referred to in that section.  
The following represents my last reply to him ( I am awaiting his response with baited breath… I will simply add it to this post when I get it if it has merit. You will simply need to refresh this page to see it. (not your email, you will need to log into the blog and refresh to see it.)
BTW does it really even matter who is right in this speculative topic???? probably not with regard to our personal salvation, but it is an important piece of the puzzle as far as understanding the plan of salvation)

“violent agreement” ?!?! LOL what an interesting term.

Did you mean to say “violent disagreement”?
You previously said
“I am convinced that section [88] verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estates and were cast out of heaven in the preexistence.”
Are you aware of any scriptures that state that the war in heaven took place in the pre-existence? I have already proven that the war in heaven spoken of in section 76 was apparently a future event and that there is strong reason to believe that the first war in heaven may have taken place in NT times with Christ seeing Satan being cast down)
The book of Abraham does not support that conclusion… just the opposite.
Is that one of the sanitized doctrines that you are holding onto?
The scriptures seem to indicate that Satan’s work of deception began in the Garden of Eden…. Indeed there is strong evidence to suggest that Satan began as an “anointed cherub” who may have been guarding Eden “before there was iniquity found in him”   See  Ezek 28
Indeed, if you accept the literalness of the existence of Job and his trials and lamentations, Satan was in heaven with the father having a reciprocal relationship with him in doing his work of testing us…. Satan does not appear to have been kicked out of heaven prior to Jobs time in Old Testament times.
Are you aware that Satan, as an angel of light is the one who was guarding the garden of Eden and the is why he was able to influence Adam and Eve?
Here is an interesting statement by Joseph Smith that, in my opinion, shows that he interpreted the scriptural term  “habitation” to mean physical bodies or “tabernacles“.
habitation = body or tabernacle
“The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and receivedtabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodiesthey will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men.”13
I agree with you that we are each seeing the picture differently and I have no doubt that the above snippet will somehow provide further evidence for how you are seeing things .
Now let’s dissect section 88 which has given you such a powerful epiphany, to see where we differ.
Verses 24-27 gives us some keys having to do with the eternal laws which govern in eternity.
One nugget of truth is that those that cannot abide the lowest kingdom of glory (telestial) must inherit a kingdom without glory.
The second nugget of truth is that the earth that we dwell on which has been made of tangible material substance, will go through a plan of salvation and will ultimately abide a celestial law. It will die and then be sanctified and glorified and quickened by celestial law.
The third nugget of truth is that those people who live on the earth and also abide a celestial law, will also be glorified and quickened by celestial law and live on the earth
Forth: Interestingly, the glorified body that the righteous inherit, is referred to as a “spiritual body” even though we have been indoctrinated to use terms that reflect the physical attributes of a “resurrected” body. That is noteworthy in my opinion because I am not convinced that resurrection necessarily means what we have been taught, nor am I convinced that the term is always used consistently in scripture. there is even a passage in the Book of Mormon where a prophet acknowledge that he is not sure if resurrection is the appropriate term to describe what he is trying to describe.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

Ok, on to verse 28 is one of my favorite predestination scriptures.

It informs us that when God took unorganized spirit intelligences and organized them, he took those spirits from differing parts of the eternal universe. Some came from darkness, having no light and glory, some came from a telestial sphere of glory and law, some from a terrestrial sphere of glory and law and some of the spirit intelligences came from a celestial sphere of glory and law.

When these preexistent spirit intellegences were spiritually organized and come to earth and are clothed upon with a physical body, they will ultimately live the law from the sphere from which their unorganized spirits were originally taken from because that is their spiritual potentiality.

Each of the 144,000 high priests who are the elect of God can trace their spiritual genetics back to the celestial sphere of existence from which they originally came.

After they have gone through their refiners fire of the mortal probation and lived celestial law, they die and then will be quickened by a celestial glory.

The scripture also informs us that they will receive their earthly bodies but they will be quickened. A key to understanding what a quickened body is, has already been given in a previous verse…. it is referred as a “spiritual body”

The best example I can think of having to do with a tangible/spiritual body is Christ mystically dematerializing and entering the upper chamber through the locked door so that he can let them feel his physical hands.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

The next passage of scripture informs us that the resurrection seems to be a process of glorification rather than an instantaneous one. In other words. Celestial spirits will initially be resurrected with a “portion” of a celestial glory and will eventually receive a fulness of it. No time frame is given in which this process will take place of completion… is it during the millennium? .

The same is true of the other laws and glories.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

This next few verse is a good example of where you and I may disagree.

I have studied the term resurrection at length and it is a messy topic. It is not as clear-cut as the sanitized church would have us believe. Sometimes it appears to mean coming forth to be judged… etc. Other times it does mean a tangible but spiritual body….

We learn from the following verses that those who cannot live one of the three laws of glory are returned to where they came from and they have not received the “gift” that they were offered.

It is true that they are temporarily quickened because they must be in order to stand at the judgment, however, after that, they are returned to their own place because they were not willing to receive a law or glory.

Arguably, they do not enjoy a physical habitation (body) throughout eternity nor would there be any reason to have one.

If you want to believe that they have a body that is fine, but I cannot find conclusive evidence to suggest that they do or that it would be of any consequence in a kingdom of darkness.

I am not saying they do or they don’t, I just don’t know.

At this point I find there to be a lack of evidence for it. I find it interesting how verses 96-98 of the same section are very clear about the celestial spirits being quickened and verse 99 is very clear about the terlestials being judged “according to men in the flesh”.

Both of those two groups are clearly resurrected in some kind of tangle bodies.

Verse 100 and 101 seem to inform us that the telestial spirits don’t come forth until after the 1,000 years of therapy… and then there is no explanation of how they come forth, but their judgment and emergennce is clearly different from the first two groups and should not be comfused with them…. . I suspect they do have some sort of quickened body of telestial glory.

HOWEVER verse 102 informs us that the Sons of Perdition will REMAIN FILTHY STILL That does not seem to indicate that they have in anyway improved their situation from the pre-existence, Indeed the Savior uses terms like it would have been better to have never been born, etc.

Is a resurrected body an improvement over their previous state? Is so, the passage does not seem to acknowledge it.

Now back to the earlier part of secion 88 and verses 32-35 which has had a great impact on your thinking…

Having already reviewed verse 102, we can read the following passages with even greater clarity. Verse 32 informs us that those who REMAIN shall be quickened.

You are apparently assuming that they are enjoying an eternal quickening that improves their situation from the pre-existence.

I would suggest that they are temporarily quickened so that they can stand in the presence of God to be judged and condemed for eternity…. following that they are returned to outer darkness from whence they came.

Returning to their own place because they were not willing to receive the gift of salvation is hardly a step upward.

The passages inform us that those that are governed by law can be preserved and sanctified and perfected by law.

They cannot be sanctified by mercy, (Celestial Law) justice (Terrestial Law) , nor judgment  (Telestial Law)

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.


Previous Oldies but Goodies

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Seven:  Documenting God’s Relationship with His People in the Latter days

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Six: The Law of Adoption and the Sealing Principles

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Five: Discovering the Doctored Covenants and then the Interpretive Revisions and then the changing of the Ordinance    


Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Four: “Seven Seals and a Paradisaical Millennium

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Three: A Mystical Look at the LDS Restoration Movement

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Two: Be Ye Therefore Perfect.. right now

Essential Oldies but Goodies Part One The Succession Crisis



The Eternal Law of Certification and Record Keeping Part 4 (Bonus)

July 5, 2018

Every once in a while I get an email from a reader providing supporting documentation to the prophetic speculations I proffer.

This has happened again and the latest email just blows my mind.
This happened in regard to “The Eternal Law of Certification” series.
You will recall that it was suggested from reading Section 128 and other related passages that both the New Testament Saints and the Restoration Saints ultimately went into apostasy and failed to establish the welding link between the Old Testament Fathers and their children that is necessary for any of us to be saved.. nor did they establish Zion or endure in the fulness of the Priesthood and Gospel.
It was suggested that virtually all those who die from New Testament times up until our day are prisoners who are awaiting God’s strange act of sending his servant to deliver the prisoners as documented in Isaiah.
It was suggested that the “Lion of the Tribe of Judah” that “prevailed to open the [sealed] book” mentioned in Revelation 5, is God’s covenant servant Joseph Smith, the great prophet intercessor of the end times.
One of the great mysteries of this mystical prophecy is that prior to Joseph emerging, “no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book..”
Yet a man emerges from somewhere..
We learn later in the revelation of John that there is a forth place in addition to heaven, earth and under the earth where the “man” was being kept until the appointed time. It was in the “sea“.
It was suggested that it was necessary for a “man” to come out of the “sea” holding the keys to loose those things that are sealed.
Having refreshed your memory about these things, here is the email that I got which supports the servant of God coming out of the sea prior to the coming of the Lord in glory:


I have been reading your blog posts for a little over a year now and I really like the latest post.

The only account we have of the welding link being attempted during the first watch is from the Bible. I find it interesting that Joseph Smith didn’t introduce baptisms for the dead until after Elijah returned in 1836, which is during the second watch. We know in the third watch the attempt will be successful and Joseph Smith will play an important role in it. What of those Saints who attempted it during the first watch? Could John the Beloved also play a role in the third watch, combining the previous failed efforts together into success?

[This was my response to that question:

Great to hear from you…
You said:

We know in the third watch the attempt will be successful and Joseph Smith will play an important role in it. What of those Saints who attempted it during the first watch? Could John the Beloved also play a role in the third watch, combining the previous failed efforts together into success?

Very interesting that you would bring that issue up. Early this morning I was led to the following statements of Joseph Smith that I think you will find very interesting and I think they address this issue:

Paul spoke of the Dispensation of the fulness of times, when God would gather together all things in one &c &. [14] Those men to whom these Keys have been given will have to be there. (I.E. when Adam shall again assemble his children of the Priesthood, & Christ be in their midst) the Ancient of Days come &c &c J.T.) And they without us cannot not be made perfect. [15] These men are in heaven, but their children are on Earth. Their bowels yearn over us. God sends down men for this reason, Mat. 13. 41. & the Son of man shall send forth his Angels& c—All these authoritative characters will come down & join hand in hand in bringing about this work—

I think that without question all of the major players in the New Testament and Book of Mormon will be among the angels that return to gather the elect. Those are they that are called into the vineyard in the Jacob allegory. 


Here is the remainder of his email which blew my mind:

Your post also tied in to some studies I have been doing of 2nd Esdras from the Apocrypha. I’ve read an online book by an LDS author and his interpretation of Ezra’s dream about the eagle. (

His interpretation is that Ezra is seeing the return of the lost 10 tribes. As I read the dream and Ezra’s subsequent dream, I came to see the lion that confronts the eagle as an actual person, not just representative of the lost 10 tribes. In Ezra’s next dream, he sees a man coming out of the sea. I believe the person Ezra is seeing in both dreams is Joseph Smith.

2nd Esdras 11:

37 And I beheld, and lo, as it were a roaring lion chased out of the wood: and I saw that he sent out a man’s voice unto the eagle, …

The interpretation given to Ezra of his first dream:

2nd Esdras 12:

31 And the lion, whom thou sawest rising up out of the wood, and roaring, and speaking to the eagle, and rebuking her for her unrighteousness with all the words which thou hast heard;

32 This is the anointed, which the Highest hath kept for them and for their wickedness unto the end: he shall reprove them, and shall upbraid them with their cruelty.

33 For he shall set them before him alive in judgment, and shall rebuke them, and correct them. 

The Christian interpretations I have read think of the lion as Jesus. However, in Ezra’s dream the wicked set up a kingdom AFTER the lion rebukes the eagle. For this reason, the lion cannot be Christ’s return in power and glory. I also found the words in verse 33 to be pointing to Joseph Smith, it notes that he will be “alive in judgment”, I believe that is referring to the fact that Joseph returns from the dead!

With what you provided from Revelations 5, with the lion in that vision being Joseph Smith, the imagery from both visions seems to me to point to the same person. The next vision of Ezra does the same:

2nd Esdras 13:

2 And, lo, there arose a wind from the sea, that it moved all the waves thereof.

3 And I beheld, and, lo, that man waxed strong with the thousands of heaven: and when he turned his countenance to look, all the things trembled that were seen under him.

4 And whensoever the voice went out of his mouth, all they burned that heard his voice, like as the earth faileth when it feeleth the fire.

5 And after this I beheld, and, lo, there was gathered together a multitude of men, out of number, from the four winds of the heaven, to subdue the man that came out of the sea 

This is another match for the imagery from Revelations 5, where the man who had the key to open the sealed book came from the sea! The interpretation of this dream is just awesome:

2nd Esdras 13:

25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:

26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind. 

Doesn’t this fit perfectly with Joseph Smith overcoming the bondage of death and hell, and breaking out of that prison?

27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;

28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:

29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.

30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth. 

Note, this isn’t the 2nd coming of Christ. This is when God BEGINS to deliver them that are upon the earth. Also, he returns to the astonishment of those on the earth. This fits with Joseph Smith’s part in God’s strange act.

31 And one shall undertake to fight against another, one city against another, one place against another, one people against another, and one realm against another.

32 And the time shall be when these things shall come to pass, and the signs shall happen which I shewed thee before, and then shall my Son be declared, whom thou sawest as a man ascending.

33 And when all the people hear his voice, every man shall in their own land leave the battle they have one against another.

34 And an innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as thou sawest them, willing to come, and to overcome him by fighting. 

When Joseph Smith returns and declares the gospel of Christ to all, they will turn to fight against him. Is part of this declaration to all the people Joseph fulfilling D&C 124’s commandment to write a proclamation?

35 But he shall stand upon the top of the mount Sion.

36 And Sion shall come, and shall be shewed to all men, being prepared and builded, like as thou sawest the hill graven without hands.

37 And this my Son shall rebuke the wicked inventions of those nations, which for their wicked life are fallen into the tempest;

38 And shall lay before them their evil thoughts, and the torments wherewith they shall begin to be tormented, which are like unto a flame: and he shall destroy them without labour by the law which is like unto me.

Isn’t this the reunion of the earthly Zion with the Heavenly Zion? Also, note the power Joseph Smith has to destroy his enemies. The vision continues with the return of the lost 10 tribes. There is a final statement by the angel to Ezra:

51 Then said I, O Lord that bearest rule, shew me this: Wherefore have I seen the man coming up from the midst of the sea?

52 And he said unto me, Like as thou canst neither seek out nor know the things that are in the deep of the sea: even so can no man upon earth see my Son, or those that be with him, but in the day time. 

I’m still working on what the answer means. Other translations of verse 52 end it with “but in the time of his day.” Is this referring to the fact that we cannot see the dead, that Joseph is in the depths of the sea along with those that are also in prison? We cannot see him until the day comes when he breaks out of that prison?