I am nobody of consequence.
I am one of many who wants to be found watching… .
“..But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready…” JS-M 1: 47 .
Any commentary and scriptural interpretations provided by me are simply to stimulate thought and encourage people to search the scriptures. .
The only parts of my posts and/or articles that should be taken seriously are the scriptures quoted from the holy, eternal and infallible word of God.
Everything else should be considered the personal opinion of a religious heretic.
Because I am Watching 
I’m trying to go to the threewatches blog and read the numbered posts in order but I can’t find #7 and #9. I’m sure there are others. I would like to read the numbered posts in order but I can’t find them all.
Can you reply to my email and let me know how I can get all of those “required” reading?
Mark-
Here is where # 7 is
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/08/7-voice-of-warning-shall-be-unto-all.html
Here is #9
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/08/9-when-those-tribulations-should-take.html
You may need to copy and paste those two url’s into the browser.
I am sorry the site is so difficult to navigate.. there was probably a better way to lay it out but I am somewhat technically challenged.
Watcher
Thanks.
The only way I determined to search on your blog was by entering “#7” or #8. Sometimes that would work – but other times it doesn’t. I don’t seem to be able to see a chronological post list either.
Do you happen to have all of the “required reading” saved into one word document or PDF file?
now I can’t find #15 – I’m working my way up.
Now – I need #15 and #31, please.
I have been meaning to try to come up with an easier way for people to access these posts chronologically..
I hope to figure something out in the near future that makes it less burdensome and time consuming.
In the mean time, I just adjusted the archive feature in the right hand column of the http://www.threewatchesblogspot.com site.
the drop down is located just above the “Mormon Related Blogs” area.
You may need to refresh your browser to see it.
It now has a drop down that lets you see all the posts for a given month chronologically.
I noticed that by choosing the month and then scrolling down you can find the numbered posts fairly easily.
Welcome to the three watches boot camp.
Please don’t be shy about challenging any suppositions or asking any questions you may have.
Thank you for visiting.
Watcher
Okay – I still can’t find #15 and #31, 32 and 33.
I did find #34 and #35 – still moving up.
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/08/15-he-had-reference-to-those-whom-go_27.html
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/09/31.html
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/09/32-earth-also-is-defiled-because-they.html
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/09/33-their-names-shall-not-be-found.html
I am concerned that you are taking in too much information to quickly.
This is not a race.
I suggest that you take a break, ponder what you have read during the rest of the day while drinking some hot chocolate and some Valium, then take in a jazz game or something totally ridiculous tonight, take a few tranquilizers later tonight and go to bed.
In the morning you will be refreshed and ready to read 30 more posts.
Thanks – that was VERY helpful. Were there a total of 51 numbered posts that you wanted us to read first?
I quit numbering the evidences at about 51 since my original goal was to provide about 30. In total I suspect I have provided well over 100 in the additional posts on both sites.
There are still quite a few posts following 51 on three watches site that would be very helpful for you to read.. mainly the ones having to do with doctrine and church history… the ones regarding current events and the signs of the times are not necessarily important as far as providing a foundation for the onewhoiswatching site.
I’m simply copying and pasting information into a word document so I can print and read over time.
Don’t worry – I’m pretty far along in my understanding of the Latter-day apostasy.
I also enjoy Rock Waterman’s blog.
I’m a 9/11 Truther.
I look forward to reading this. I’ve also read some things at LDS Anarchist before too and agree with most of it.
One more thought or “evidence”. You may have touched upon it – but I’m only at #19. Do you recall in the Joseph Smith film at the Legacy Theater when Joseph is looking out over the Mississippi and Emma is with him and he turns to Emma and says “The Lord is going to let me rest for a while”?
That seems to be another hint by Joseph that he was only going to go away and rest for a while. That seems to indicate that he would be “back to work” – so to speak, doesn’t it?
Yes, if that is an accurate quote from JS that would be yet another great evidence!
The problem I have noticed with several of those films is that the script writers sometimes they take some literary license.
It tried googling the quote and cannot find it on the internet, perhaps he said it a little differently.
Is it possible for you to send me an email so that I have your personal email address and can ask you questions as they come up?
It has been sent. If you don’t see it check your spam filter. If that doesn’t help reply here and we will figure something out.
Your black and white robes posts seem to have disappeared. Can I still read them?
I had temporarily made them private posts because I didn’t want to confuse people when I did the post on Oliver’s Secret.
Prophecy has different layers of interpretation and the two posts use differing interpretations.
Anyway, the post have been made public and should work now
I didn’t realize that by making an old post public again that it would resend it to all of my subscribers. I am sorry about that. If anyone knows how to make an old post that has since been made private, public again without sending the post to subscribers, please enlighten me.
Watcher
Thank you! I’m trying to figure out my feelings about the temple so that helped. I told my husband the first time I went that it was exactly the same as the secret combinations the Book of Mormon warns about but I was told the same excuse, that Satan copied the Lord’s covenants. I have never felt good about it but I forced myself to go for 16 years waiting to someday understand it and maybe feel the Spirit there. My mother admitted to me that she doesn’t understand a bit of it and wonders what the point is but she has been going for over 50 and is convinced that it holds the key to her salvation. sigh. When will we ever learn to follow our own promptings and direction from the Lord?
Jane-
When Mrs Watcher went through for the first time and got to the “pae lae ale” part, the spirit told her that what she was doing was evil and wrong and it freaked her out, but she did not dare tell me or anyone else what happened or how she was feeling.
She began to question her own feelings
It was not until many years later when I began to have my awakening and confide in her that there were some disturbing things I was finding in the scriptures about the modern church that she remembered what she had experienced.
I firmly believe the spirit was talking to her.
The amazing thing about your experience is that you were so familiar with what the Book of Mormon says about secret combinations that you were able to connect the dots.
I frankly was not able to connect the dots when I first went through.
Watched,
I have finally decided to acknowledge you and your incredible work on all of your deep drilling expeditions! specifically your tribute to Sidney Rigdon, thank you! Well done indeed.
I have to admit that you are one of a few out there that I feel I can relate to. My family was baptized in 1968 in Detroit, Michigan when I was 9 yrs., we were practicing the Methodist faith prior and my mother from a Baptist upbringing was in search of truth so she explored many religions and I took an interest in her persuit to find truth. At 6 yrs of age I had a testimony of the Savior and by 9 while being taught the lessons from the missionaries I gained an understanding of the truth that Joseph had seen the Father and the Son and the organization of the early church and the restoration that they were teaching me at that age. By the time I was 16 I gained a testimony of the BoM and was sealed in the temple by 23 and have been active and holding various callings most of my adult life. My wife from the same town and I have 7 children, I have had two sons serve missions and to date three of our children have married and have chosen the temple to do so.
By now you are thinking, and your point is? Ha ha, just a little history of someone who was taught in the traditions of his father and my gaining my own testimony of the Truth of the Gospel contained in the BoM has had an incredible effect on me though my studies of all scripture. I have been one of the fortunate ones who has placed my trust in the arm of God and not the flesh an by doing so I have always had the ability to discern truth and get validation from the Holy Spirit of Truth and Promise not have allowed what others have said including the Prophet and GA’s pertaining to my faith.
It has always amazed me that we have so many characters throughout the scriptures good and bad and more
Specifically the BoM that has crystal clear warnings and examples of an apostate church and people and yet most people of this church have a hard time with any thing that isn’t smooth in its digestion? I have been questioning the program from go because that is how I get the answers that I need for my own salvation.
So the truth is, I like to jump from high perches into the very deep because my faith is and has always been in Gods plan that was presented before coming down here, so I have a confession to make to you, i have developed a gnarly wart on the end of my nose that I am so grateful for!!! But because I enjoy a like minded soul I have been reading incessantly on each of your blogs as well as a few others! Here’s the crazy part, I have always been a voracious reader and have read a lot of good stuff that has taught me the strange way that God operates and I have not researched any Internet sites concerning anything remotely associated to any philosophies on religion, none, period! until one week ago! I was done researching some other things and I just had a random thought burst into my mind! And it was, what is the level of apostacy that the church was currently at? Boom! Just boom, a thought, and I googled it and KABOOM! I have been suspect throughout my membership especially because being from Detroit and serving in the Navy in CA, living in AZ, CO and now Utah for 20 years, I have been around a little and living in Utah County for 17 of those years, wow! I’ll leave it at that for now! Anyway, I have seen a steady decline from day one, literally and chose to observe and learn more truth to discern from the absolute true naive blues to the true bullshiters along my journey! I noticed my views were beginning to gain momentum when Hinckley was at
The helm and conferences were harder to sit through and all of the spending on elaborate structures and most of all the increased judgements amongst those who participated. I have always known that we were going down as a nation too and amped up my studies on constitutional law a number of years back which caused me to take a closer look at the laws in the Goapel and the word of wisdom. Two things that bothered me most was wow and teme attendance and children starving that were members, and I was working through my concerns and getting facts when one day a friend of mine said, hey let’s go check out City Creek, to which I knew was going up and I knew it was controversial and I said sure.
Watcher, when I saw that monstrosity with my own eyes I felt embarrassed to be associated with this organization, honestly! I was dumb struck! I have work in development and construction my whole adult life and have always known much of the progress of the corporate church but this was a whole new feeling that I had never felt! That was right after it opened, I was there for 20 minutes and had no more
Interest in being there and have not and will not go back! Not because of anything more than I had felt what I had always wondered what Babylon must of felt like back in the day if you were a God fearing man and stumbled upon it!? Well I know now! That is what triggered the thought a week ago that I responded to and fortunately found your material! Each time in my life when i have sensed things getting worse I go back to my studies to reinforce my testimony on the times and where we really are! This time I finally decided to see what the world was saying and I am so grateful to have found you in the mix! I admire your search for Truth and the time you have dedicated to your studies and what you are sharing with the world! I have always had a profound belief in Joseph and Sidney and many others coming back to get this ship on its proper course as I have been watching also!!! The Spirit works as strangely as the Father when you remove preconceived notions and resistance to what you would like things to be!!! Anyway I have a great story to tell when people ask me how I got this nose wart! I have an incredible story to share with you pertaining to Sidney and a scratch that I had I my neck about him that you so eloquently reinforced about my beliefs with your dedication to Truth!!! God Bless you Watcher and feel free to send any meat to feast on as I am charting the deepest of depths! Peace.
It is alsways a privilege to hear from another kindred spirit, nose wart and all.
Thank you for sharinging some information with us about yourself.
Thank you for being true to the true faith instead of trusting in the arm of flesh.
Praise God
Watcher
“Everything else should be considered the personal opinion of a religious heretic.”
You sound like the heretic that would tear down free-thinking individuals in their quest for light and truth. Only fools deal in extremes.
Jean
I have no desire to tear down your “free-thinking” if you don’t want it to be challenged.
I support your agency to be a free thinker.
Ha! You are legit!!! I know I was lengthy in my first response to you Watcher, sorry for that, I was so excited becaise of your exhaustive efforts in digging deep into the word of God! I am so greatful for all that you have put forth on your blogs! I am truly grateful that my testimony of truth is based upon the Godhead and the scriptures and that I have not trusted in mans perversion of sacred truth because there are so many good people out there that have missed the message from the get go, and that all knowledge pertaining to Gods kingdom and His children have to be brought before the Holy Spirit for verification and validation period. By not doing so one is not doing as one has been commanded to do and therefor one cannot expect to be guided as promised. Anyway I appreciate your interaction with Denver Snuffer, I have not read any of his works and sense that he is a good man and certainly has done good for others based on what others have said of him. I was a little concerned in your first part on him as you seemed to be classifying him and his agenda, which doesn’t matter because by you staying focused on what you do by scriptural account you enlighten those who are not limited in their striving for truth. In the second part you toned it down to make your point so much more powerful on how one lie can be perpetuated amidst much truth! Well done!!! I am all about your desire in keeping accord with a high vibration! That’s pure bad ass!!! The Lord will chasten those who are unwilling to learn from Him and His example, we need not bother with any chastisement, assumption, presumption or hearsay because all that does is place ourselves in the same level as those who are spewing untruths! I have read almost all of your posts on your various blogs and just can’t thank you enough for the important role that you are living as a teacher of truth in His kingdom! I would love to meet you as in my journey I have yet to find one like you! You have been an incredible inspiration in my life and that has only been a couple of months of extensive reading of your material! The fascinating thing for me recently was becoming I’ll in July and finally submitting to seeing what was out there, as I had never cared to venture out on the net to see who and what was being said as of late concerning the sad state that the church is in! I recently bought a house in south Salt Lake on RIGDON Ave!!! As I found this place I had a little prompt of my recollections of Sidney Rigdon and always felt that he was not treated right, but that was based on my learning from back in the 70’s, as I was excited to get this place because it was on a street that reminded me of him I made a promise to God that I would find out the truth about Sidney as soon as I could do so. Well, as you know, be careful what you ask for! The inspiration came to get on the net to see, and I not only found you, I found the truth about Sidney through your diligence, and it is truly one of the most profound truths that has been revealed unto me!!! God bless you for your researching this profound truth and sharing it with the world!!! This has made my year and then some!!! Thank you!
I was wondering if you have ever done any research on D&C 89 and the word of wisdom. If you’ve previously written about this section a link to your writing would be great. My questions regarding section 89 are two fold. One, from reading church history we can see that word of wisdom was treated very differently than it is today. Many drank wine, used tobacco and so forth. Secondly, the wording in Section 89 seems contradicting at times. It opens in verse 2 with, “To be sent greeting, not by commandment or constraint..” this wording leaves me to wonder if it is a commandment or suggestion, but the section ends with a promise of blessings if kept? The whole thing to me is confusing. Your thoughts?????
Thanks
Great questions, Questioning.
I have noticed some of the same things and have had similar thoughts as you.
I have never dedicated a post to section 89 or done a lot of research on it except for doing a short blurb regarding the historical background on the infamous comma that had been mysteriously inserted into verse 13 which, according to some, reverses the previous meaning of the verse, regarding the eating of meat. That info is in the article titled “Why have ye transfigured the Holy Word of God?”
Some of what I have read seems to indicate that even though it was not given as a commandment, it was treated as such during the Kirtland years. There is one instance where some members of a congregation refused to partake of the sacrament because the priesthood holder officiating in the sacrament was breaking the word of wisdom.
There are also some records that indicate that by the time the saints got to Nauvoo, some of them, perhaps even Joseph, were not following its guidelines very strictly.
It would not surprise me at all if the word of wisdom was initially given as wisdom in 1833 but became a “letter of the law” commandment after the fulness of the gospel was rejected in 1834.
Didn’t know where to post this question, hope it’s ok to post here? In your blog you refer to the everlasting covenant as baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. I have been searching the scriptures, looking through the topical guide and other references, and all I find is the wording everlasting covenant used over and over again in the scriptures, but no definition. However when you come to D&C your told it’s marraige. Ok so I don’t buy that definition, but where did you come across the information or references for what the everlasting covenant really is? Love some help!!!! Thanks
It is really interesting that the spiritual rebirth is not mentioned very much in the New Testament. I am only aware of two passages in it that specifically mention the baptism of fire and the holy ghost. It may well be that, that covenant is one of the ones the Book of Mormon refers to that was taken out of the Bible.
You are correct that the term is not easily found and defined in modern revelation.
One way to arrive at the conclusion that I did, is that the following two passages inform us that the “everlasting covenant” is the same covenant that was from the beginning.
1 BEHOLD, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning. (D&C 22:1)
“Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning. (D&C 49:8-9)
Both passages confirm that the everlasting covenant that Joseph restored to the earth is the same one delivered at the beginning, which would be when Adam was on the earth.
The first passage informs us that the everlasting covenant does away with the old Law or covenants. The second passage implies that the new and everlasting covenant includes or follows after the principle of faith.
The implication is that it is the spiritual rebirth of the Baptismal Covenant… but to verify, we need to go back to the beginning to see what the covenant was that Adam participated in from the very beginning.
This is an amazing doctrine that differentiates Mormonism from other christian churches. We believe that the fulness of the Gospel was preached to Adam from the very beginning, long before the law of Moses in the Old Testament.
Go to Moses 6:59-68 and you find that the covenant given to Father Adam in the beginning, was the three part baptism of water, fire and the Holy Ghost 🙂
I just finished your post on the Book of Abraham.
Thank you for that!
Did you ever get around to writing part two?
Hi watcher,
do those links you have to the specialbulletinboard site work for anyone else? I cannot seem to open them.
Or is this another Down Under Shifty Internet conspiracy?!
No conspiracy there my friend, it is a defunct website.
Hi watcher,
Commenting here as I’m not sure where else it may more appropriately fit.
In all my research, one thing that seems to be a bit conspicuous is the lack of documentation of joseph teaching or giving sermons from the BOOK OF MORMON.
I’m not sure why this oddity exists but thus far I haven’t seen much of a justification for using the stumbling block- Bible- as opposed to a ) the most correct book on earth and b) the book he was responsible for!
Whatcha think? I would love to hear from anyone on this blog.
Fusion
Fusion
I think you bring up a great observation.
I have commented on previous posts how curious it is that Joseph continued preaching from the Bible most of the time during his ministry, AFTER bringing forth the Book of Mormon!!!
It is interesting to me that “lectures on faith” which was the “doctrine” portion of the “Doctrine and Covenants” and was presented to the church and sustained as scripture, used Biblical documentation 99% of the time, instead of the Book of Mormon.
The point, in my opinion, is not that the Book of Mormon was not important, and correct in its quality of translation, the point is that the Bible, even before the inspired version was translated and published, was held in the upmost of respect and still remained as the primary Book of scripture to preach out of.
While it is obvious that missionaries would need to preach out of the Bible since it would only have credibility in the eyes of investigators, the point that I am making is that Joseph and Sidney virtually always used the Bible for sermons and substantiating doctrine, when preaching to the Saints. That was true from the early days in Kirtland until the very end, in Nauvoo.
The importance of the Bible is further verified by the commandment of God for Joseph to translate it and publish it to the world. Somewhere, as I recall, Joseph said that the inspired version needed to be published for the salvation of the church, or something to that effect.
We sometimes forget that the Book of Mormon is a SECOND witness to the FIRST and PRIMARY witness, which is the Bible! The Bible contains crucial first hand documentation about the birth, life, death, teachings and atonement of Christ, not to mention the creation story, fall of Adam, history of Israel, countless prophecies of the end times, etc., etc., etc.
In your comments you mention the inspired version of the Bible that Joseph was commanded to translate. My comment is that Joseph’s translated (and now published) Bible is so imperative to be reading from. It is like “the rest of the story”. It finishes and clarifies so many passages and in some cases adds many additional verses. It finishes the Mount of transfiguration which suggests that John the Revelator as a crucial end-time servant (see also D&C 77 “A mission to gather the 12 tribes in that day) Not only did John the Baptist (also an alias) “know him” as opposed to “and he knew him not” in the KJV, but it is reversed in the parable of the 10 virgins as well; “ ye know me not” rather than “I know ye not”. Genesis has many clarifying additions and so on and so on. In order to get the correct fullness of the gospel contained in the B of M and Bible, I suggest emphasizing the need to use the most CORRECT version. Just saying….
yes I have said many times that we should always consult the JST version. It is amazingly revelatory and it provides essential clarifications and correction.
I believe it has to do with…
11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.
12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
13 And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 3:11 – 13)
One thing I love about the Word of the Lord is its transcendental nature, and its ability to reveal itself among very different time periods, resulting in multiple fulfilments. With that said, I doubt it has crossed many minds(due to the partial blindness of Israel), that the above verses were also prophesying about the Book of Commandments, and Doctrine and Covenants, not just the Book of Mormon.
And so I think the astute observation that Joseph’s work was primarily in the convincing of the Bible, Book of Commandments, and D&C in place of the Book of Mormon; draws attention to the fact that even though certain powers that be claim the above has been fulfilled; that when truth be told, the above verses still has need of being fulfilled with the utmost precision. And I am sure the Lord has his bases covered for the grand slam, in the convincing of all the words that he has brought forth including his word contained in the book of Mormon.
11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 21:11)
17 And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men.
18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:17 – 18)
I am sure Joseph knew he had plenty of time in the convincing of the word, just at that time the Bible had already gone forth among them, the Book of Mormon wasn’t as scattered as it is now. And rest assuredly in the near future, Joseph will be bringing forth additional words from the plates, and convincing of the Book of Mormon, that by now has already gone forth; growing with the bible and doctrine and covenants.
Sorry I’m posting here not sure where else I would. In D&C we are told to baptise our kids at 8, can you give me the history of that section and that revelation. Just knowing what I do about the true ordinences this cause me confusion? Thanks
To be honest, I have been somewhat befuddled about the logic of section 68:27.
I understand and agree with the scriptures that little children don’t need baptism and that children begin to understand the difference between right and wrong at about the age of eight and for that reason, it seems logical to me that those that are spiritually and emotionally mature enough to have the desire and make the decision and confession of faith at that age should have the opportunity anytime they choose from that age on.
The concept of categorically “having your children baptized” because they have turned eight years of age is a struggle for me to understand. It seems contrary to the whole purpose of baptism and what is outlined in section 20. It almost seems akin to allowing and even encouraging unworthy people partake of the sacrament although God has commanded us to not allow that to take place. (luckily the condemnation is not as severe at this time since the sacrament is not really a true sacrament.)
Therefore, there is something that I am not seeing with regard to this concept of having kids baptized and I am probably not a good person to be asking about it.
My speculations are as follows:
During a time of living the lesser law of works it is probably consistent to just dunk a child since they have turned a certain age.
With specific reference to section 68, it is one of the few revelations that specifically refers to how things should be done once Zion is redeemed. That may be the key right there. The rules and laws and dynamics of what is taking place in a redeemed land or stake may be quite different for those in Zion than for those who are not in a consecrate and spiritually prepared and protected environment.
Bottom-line for me is that children need to desire to be baptized because they believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement.
Wish I could be of more help… go by the spirit… 😉
No that was perfect! So for a crazy follow up question, I am of the belief that the church is in a state of apostasy, but I am a mother of young children and I see the value of raising my children in the church. When it comes to the morals and values of the LDS people I like the structure of the church, I think the members are good people trying to do good in the world, but do you think it’s possible to raise children in the church while teaching them a different set of beliefs. I don’t know if that’s possible and just wondering what your experience has been or if you have heard of others being able to do this?
I think it is possible to raise kids in the church and yet give them coaching at home and teach them to be critical thinkers.
In fact I think there are already lots of people who participate in the church with many different levels of belief and some have zero belief but still love the culture and the morals that are taught and the community and friendships that are offered, etc.
Hi Watcher,
Just wanted to alert you and readers to Daymon Smith’s offer to read his books on the Cultural History of the BoM for free:
I think regardless of one’s opinions and leanings, there will be much to learn from, well, Daymon’s opinions and leanings as he brings another side of the coin into focus, and most especially, helps us in our walk back toward the marvellous Book of Mormon.
It will be interesting to see what he makes of the environment and air of the early 1800’s and the effect of that world on the Bom.
Fusion
Hey Watcher,
I am trying to open this post of yours, but it keeps asking me for a wordpress log-in:
‘Apparent Discrepancies Pertaining to Priesthood’
Any chance you can shake that loose?
Thank you,
Fusion
It works for me mate-
Give it another try
Hoping you could help me with something. I know this will be your opinion but I would love some insight from a well versed scriptorian. I have been reading a lot of the old testament and as I read the stories of Moses going and killing all the Midianites except the virgins, God killing the first born unless there was blood on the doors, and in Deuteronomy the rebellious kids could be stoned by the elders, I really struggle to connect and understand this God. The narrative of the restoration, the 3 watches, and the atonement statute you have written about on your blog has lead me to greater understand in regards to so much confusion I had growing up LDS, but these Old Testament stories really baffle me? Any thoughts would help!!
To me, one of the harsh realities of the plan of salvation is the fact that there was and is a “war in heaven” that is also taking place on this earth. The is a spiritual war taking place right now on earth that we don’t even comprehend the magnitude of. I have suggested in the following article that Satan himself was cast down to earth and had a physical body and that those that followed him and supported his plan, also came down to earth in physical bodies and participate in a probationary experience.
This is why there is so much pure evil on this planet.
I realize that this challenges common beliefs and that it is not politically correct to take this stand, but, I see much evidence to support the supposition. Isaiah speaks of the time that Satan will be cast out of the earth at the time of the resurrection, etc.
Building upon that premise, it appears to me that there have been periods of time during the OT that the children of God and children of the evil evil one, have been in separate, clearly defined and clearly distinguishable groups. During those times, God was very harsh and did condone various types of genocide and other things that we have been conditioned to believe are categorically wrong.
It is natural for us to judge the actions of God in those instances because we see through a glass darkly… we only see from our very limited perspective based on our own perception of reality and morality, assuming that the strict code of morality that God has given us also strictly applies to him…. NO TRUE.
I would suggest that we don’t see the big picture and that is why we have a disconnect when we read the OT. For all we know, God is being compassionate to put some groups of people out of their misery. Those that don’t have the spiritual potentiality to worship the only true God are only wasting their time here doing Satan’s own bidding. In fact their visit my be very detrimental to themselves as well as the people they interact with.
Perhaps their is no net advantage to their short stay here and it does not enhance their eternal state.
We know that God is merciful and just, but we don’t understand what his providence is in being merciful and just.
During Old Testament times, when Good and evil groups were clearly defined, God often dealt harshly with the heathen people that loved darkness rather than light and that refused to worship the God of light. It was difficult enough for God to deal with his own unruly and stiff-necked people let alone the seed of the serpent.
Contrary to Gods commands, Gods people mingled with other groups. You can read about when God cast Israel out of his sight among the nations. Both kingdoms of Israel were dispersed among the Gentile nations.
In the last days we are informed that the blood of all nations has been mixed and that the wheat and the tare must grow together until the time of the harvest when the two groups will be separated again. We live in a time when physical appearance means nothing. It is impossible to distinguish Gods people from Satan’s people. Skin color means absolutely nothing. Apparent lineage means absolutely nothing. The only truly significant differentiating feature in God’s eyes is what is in a person’s heart.
At the time of the harvest, God will simply be doing what he was doing anciently, destroying evil and saving the good.
I realize this sounds harsh to those who have been indoctrinated on the sanitized version of reality and morality, but I would suggest that truth is sometimes different than what we have been taught… 😦
As you have pointed out.. this is just my opinion
You have closed comments on your recent posts, so maybe you will see my question here and respond. I am intrigued by your thoughts about the marred servant. Would you please post or send the “multiple” references you referred to where the Lord identifies this as Joseph Smith? I would like to study this topic further.
Thanks, and please keep writing. I don’t know if I agree with everything you write, but I appreciate the thoughts and discussion.
I responded by email to you Julie
Let me know if you did not get it. 🙂
onewhoiswatching,
Who are you? Is your name associated with this blog in any way? I looked for information or a profile but could not find anything. Just curious so that I can know who to attribute the writings to. I believe that when we speak the truth we should freely identify ourselves with that truth. Your friend, Chris Harrison
Hi Chris
The reason I don’t identify myself is because Mormons have been conditioned to judge the messenger instead of the message. I want people to judge the content on this blog solely on its own merits, under the influence of the Holy Ghost.
If you want to know who I am badly enough I have provided hints by which people can find out. There are lots of people who know who I am. But who I am is not important, the only thing that is important is the truth and all truth come from the Holy Ghost. 🙂
hi there,
I have a couple questions but would rather share them by email.
I am currently reading the “second comforter” by you-know-who.
I do not appreciate everything he says and don’t believe he’s right on many points (about history for instance) but I appreciate one thing : he invites us to come closer to Christ.
Do you believe we can have such a personal relation with our Lord ? and if so, should we seek that communion ?
A post on that matter would be interesting.
I appreciate your thoughts and efforts.
Watcher
My eyes have been opened. I have read through almost everything you have written here and have delved headlong into the scriptures as a result. The insight provided by the Atonement Statute and JS’s intercessory offering explain so much. The Spirit has testified to my soul of the truthfulness. Thank You.
In the Zechariah prophecies about the Brand and the Branch, the Brand is identified as having filthy garments and coming out of the fire. If this is SR are you aware of sins that he committed or of any recorded instance of the sins being placed upon his head (similar to what the priest did under the Atonement Statute) prior to him being led off by the fit man?
To my knowledge he wasn’t part of what secretly took place in the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836.
I am now watching.
Feel free to respond directly by email.
I like this JL fella that you have written about recently. If he is in Utah I would like to reach out to him, as he sounds like a like-minded truth seeker. Maybe we could do lunch. With his permission, can you put me in touch with him?
Thank you
Robert
I have forwarded your email to him.. the ball is in his court.
Thanks for visiting
Watcher
I just read your latest blog and fully agree with you. Yes “millions shall know Brother Joseph AGAIN.”
Please open your blog articles to user comments too.
I just read your latest blog and do not agree.
For as long as I have listened to Gileadi (admittedly only since 2012), he has consistently denied Joseph Smith as the Servant whenever I asked. I remember him distinctly saying to always look for players in our own time, because we don’t need to have men come back from the past to fulfill God’s purposes. I understand him better now when he says that’s how we frequently get it so wrong, because we assume things that are not verified in the text of scripture. There is a good discussion about Hezekiah and the Davidic Covenant in the Literary Message of Isaiah, 1994 (second edition, 2012), by Gileadi, pages 39-53, and in the section on “Suffering and Salvation,” pages 183-239, but I am certain he wrote about the same things in the 1980s in his two books with Deseret Book.
Jonathan Felt
Thank you for your observations Jonathan-
I am a little confused by your declaration that you don’t agree with my post, followed by your observation that Gileadi has consistently denied Joseph Smith as the Servant. That is exactly what I said:
“Brother Gileadi has told several people that he does not believe it is Joseph Smith. He is apparently still looking for a future Davidic Servant.”
What part of the above comment did you not understand?
With regard to your contention that Gileadi has previously taught that the end times servant of the Lord does an intercession and takes upon himself the sins of the people, I am very excited to hear that. I was not categorically claiming that Gileadi has never previously taught that, I was simply saying that I did not remember hearing him teach it, nor have any of his readers prior to “M” brought it to my attention.
Here is what I said:
“I must say, I am baffled at what I heard because I remember listening to this segment years ago and did not remember him saying that. Furthermore, I have never heard any of his listeners talk about this concept, until “M” brought it to my attention, and lastly, I attended one of his lectures last year when he addressed the topic of “proxy saviors”, and again, he did not mention anything about the Lord’s latter day servant being a proxy savior that I can recall. It causes me to wonder if he has arrived at this conclusion recently.”
As you can see, I did not claim categorically that Gileadi has not previously taught that the end times servant provides and intercession and takes the sins of the people upon himself, I am simply stating that I was not aware that he had, and I was speculating, and not sure if he had previously taught that.
I really appreciate hearing that he does teach this concept in two of his previous books.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Unfortunately, I don’t own either of those two books and do not desire to purchase either of them. I do have his “The Last Days, Types and Shadows…” book which I love. And I have his “Isaiah Decoded” book which I did not enjoy at all. It seems strange to me that he does not cover this concept in either of those books, if my dwindling memory serves me correctly. If I am wrong, please direct me to the appropriate pages. Now I am curious and may go back and look in those books. It has been a long time since I have read them…
Regarding the two books that you referenced, would you be willing to provide a direct quote from one or both of them for me to review? I would be happy to update my post with your comments and with the quotes from his book.
With regard to his rejection of Joseph Smith returning, it really baffles and saddens me that he denies the many unconditional promises in the D&C regarding Joseph’s return, not to mention prophetic declarations from Isaiah such as found in Isaiah 49 that are so clearly referencing the return of a servant that failed in his first attempt to gather Israel but is ultimately successful.
How does he justify believing in a God that makes unconditional promises in modern revelation and then fails to fulfill them? Does he reject the fact that God is all knowing and has all time, past present, and future continually before his eyes?
Has Gileadi ever addressed D&C 1:6-7, 38-39 and explained why he rejects those declarations of the Lord?
“Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.”
I would love to hear his explanation on why he seems to be believe that God’s word is not true and faithful and will not all be fulfilled.
About the last thing I want to be is contentious so I will tread lightly. I thought you also said, “It causes me to wonder if he has arrived at this conclusion recently.” I disagreed with you because Gileadi is now and has been consistent in looking for a Davidic Servant which is not Joseph Smith. Occasionally I have the privilege of asking him questions and he always answers me succinctly. One of my questions has been, ‘why are some members of our church so against what you say?’ I then ask, ‘do you play the role of a prophet?’ To which he says he is more of a scribe. Scribes, after all, do not make things up, but elucidate and clarify what is written in scripture for our time. Gileadi would NEVER reject anything the Lord says, and we can trust him on that. In other words (and unfortunately for me), he is not a speculator like I want him to be. BTW…I think you are more informed about things generally than I, but a speculator you are (and you have stated as such). His advice has always been to find out what’s in scripture precisely before saying ANYTHING. Ouch. I am always so disappointed when I get advice like that, but he is right.
Since you asked, I looked up in my copy of The Last Days, 1991 (first edition), by Gileadi, pages 177-259, “Priesthood, Patriarchy and Proxy Salvation” for the exhaustive discussion about Hezekiah and Davidic Covenant which, I also remember in his book “Isaiah Decoded.”
Anyway..and In conclusion: I was reading D&C 90:3-4 today and thought of you. Speaking to Joseph the Lord said, “Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church. And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.”
I don’t know exactly how the mortal Davidic Servant will operate, but I am confident his authority will hinge from the keys of the key holder of this last dispensation. When I think about it, there will be a great deal of temporal and spiritual work to do in ushering the Millennial age to this earth. For starters, Ephraimites need to start acting like Israel again (in other words shed our lost tribe status), and who better to teach us than another mortal? it’s too late for Joseph because he’s already ascended above us.
Treading carefully again in my opinion, you and I need to be more careful about how we speculate in this last space of time before the “winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon..” our house. Our church members are not reading the scriptures like we should and thus we are easily drawn away from what the scriptures are actually saying….etc…
It’s too bad you aren’t in my high priest group on Sundays because you would keep things lively for me.
“About the last thing I want to be is contentious so I will tread lightly. I thought you also said, “It causes me to wonder if he has arrived at this conclusion recently.” I disagreed with you because Gileadi is now and has been consistent in looking for a Davidic Servant which is not Joseph Smith.”
I wasn’t saying that Gileadi has not been consistent in looking for a Davidic Servant that was not Joseph Smith. I simply think you misunderstood what I was saying.
It was never my intent to question whether Gileadi has been consistently teaching about the topic of the “Davidic Servant” or “Davidic King” that provides protection for his people, or the topic of “proxy saviors” or “proxy salvation” or “vassals” and “suzerain king” etc. I understand that he speaks of these general concepts particularly in reference to the latter day servant of the Lord. I very much appreciate that he does speak of these things.
What I had never detected from Gileadi’s writings is that he may have come to the conclusion that I have arrived at, which is that there is a very specific, identifiable prophetic event that takes place in the last days wherein the Davidic servant literally takes upon himself the sins of his people as an intercessory act (atonement offering) that causes him to be marred and that he needs to be healed of; An intercessory act that prevents his people from being destroyed from off the face of the earth.
That is what I was getting excited about. I felt that what Gileadi was saying in the blurb was more congruent with my findings (not referring to Joseph Smith as the servant, but simply the narrative about having the sins of Israel put upon him) than anything else I had heard him say. It is very possible that he wasn’t even saying what I thought he was saying.
I suspect that you have read my thesis about the Intercessory offering by the latter day servant. I would not be surprised if Gileadi has read it as well. In it, I claim that the Davidic servant in 2 Samuel 7 is NOT referring to Christ or Solomon as the literal fulfillment of the prophecy. My contention is that Joseph Smith fulfills every aspect of the prophecy. I then reference many other Old Testament prophecies to support the thesis, including the atonement statute in Leviticus 16, which I believe is also a prophecy about the same event.
(If you have not read the thesis, it is here https://onewhoiswatching.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/atonement-statute-final-63.pdf)
The thing that struck me about the statement by Gileadi that “M” referred me to is that it sounded to me as if he was describing something quite similar to what I am saying in my thesis, despite the fact that he and I disagree about WHO the servant is.
That was the only point I was trying to make. I was not saying that Gileadi was softening about Joseph Smith being the Davidic servant and I was not saying that he had not spoken in general terms about how davidic servants can act a protectors, etc., I was simply saying that the explanation and verbiage that he used, particularly in reference to Isaiah 52 and the “marred servant” narrative seemed to be more to the point of what my research has led me to conclude about the servant being spoken of.
I appreciate that you don’t want to be contentious. I don’t either. But there is no need for you to tread lightly, I want you to be hard hitting in what you believe and in the points you want to make. I want you to stand up valiantly for what you believe in and to defend the beliefs of your friend Brother Gileadi, because that is how we learn from each other .
There is no need to be thin skinned. We need to be bold in declaring the truth as we see it.
I realize that in my enthusiasm and passion about these topics, I sometimes sound more contentious and combative in a personal sense than I mean to be. To me it is not personal; it is somewhat of a contest of ideas. It is a contest of proving which doctrines are sound and which ones are not.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with being hard hitting with regard to doctrine and in showing someone where they err in doctrine. I believe that debating the meaning of scripture can be beneficial if both parties sincerely just want to get to the truth while trying to be respectful and understand each other.
Joseph and Sidney were commanded to confound their enemies that were spreading false rumors and false doctrine:
2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.
3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.
4 Wherefore, labor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.
5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;
6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.
7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.
8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.
9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;
10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.
11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.
Frankly, I would really like to meet brother Gileadi either in public or in private in a friendly debate because I think that much of the great work he has done is negated by the fact that he is indoctrinating his followers into rejecting who the true servant really is.
That is a serious thing.
Would you be willing to pass on this challenge to your friend and ask him if he would be willing to have a friendly little debate in private or public over this issue?
You have said:
.”Gileadi would NEVER reject anything the Lord says, and we can trust him on that.”
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that. He already has rejected something the Lord has said.
I don’t mean to be mean spirited or demeaning; I am simply calling a spade, a spade.
Brother Gileadi as set himself up as an expert in Hebrew and furthermore, he considers himself a scribe that is inspired in the art of understanding ancient scripture and prophecy. Therefore it is fair to scrutinize his claims and to see if he is teaching sound doctrine.
Allow me to explain my concerns.
I have presented you with a literal example of how Gileadi has in fact rejected what the Lord says and you have not defended the claim in his behalf. If you have been in contact with him about this discussion, then perhaps your neglect in mounting a defense is a result of his neglect in defending his position.
Now that I know that you are personal acquaintances with brother Gileadi and that you have a line of communication with him wherein he answers questions that you ask him, I am going to ask him a question through you and see if he is able and willing to defend himself.
In your last communication, you said this:
” For as long as I have listened to Gileadi (admittedly only since 2012), he has consistently denied Joseph Smith as the Servant whenever I asked. I remember him distinctly saying to always look for players in our own time, because we don’t need to have men come back from the past to fulfill God’s purposes.”
Lets analyze what is taking place here.
You took a scriptural narrative to brother Gileadi that indicates that Joseph Smith is the Davidic servant. That narrative is clearly provided in modern revelation.
Brother Gileadi simply responded with a personal opinion that has no scriptural backing.
He said:
“we don’t need to have men come back from the past to fulfill God’s purposes.”
Sadly, he did not feel the need to substantiate what he was saying with scripture.
Is he speaking on behalf of the Lord? I don’t think so because he told you he is more of a scribe than a prophet and he did not say “thus sayeth the Lord”
So why did he feel that he did not need to justify the personal opinion he proffered with the word of God?
I am now going to ask the same question I asked you earlier only I am going to break it down and be much more specific just in case you or he, is unfamiliar with what scripture says.
First of all, God has told us that every unconditional promise and prophecy in the D&C will come true. I use the following passages of scripture to justify that claim:
“Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.”
OK now, I need you to ask brother Gileadi if he accepts the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture which is just as valid as the book of Isaiah.
If he does, please ask him to agree or disagree with my interpretation of the above passages.
If he thinks I am wresting the meaning of the scriptures, please ask him to explain why I am wrong. Have him break it down for me in simple terms so that I can understand what the above passages really mean.
Now then, if he agrees with my interpretation of the above passages, then lets go on to the next passages that I am presenting as evidence that Joseph Smith is the Davidic Servant.
The following passages are taken from section 103 of the D&C. Please have him read them carefully and not take anything for granted.
Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun. is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.
22 Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith, Jun. say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged—Gather yourselves together unto the land of Zion, upon the land which I have bought with money that has been consecrated unto me.
23 And let all the churches send up wise men with their moneys, and purchase lands even as I have commanded them.
24 And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land, which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands after these testimonies, which ye have brought before me against them, ye shall curse them;
25 And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies.
26 And my presence shall be with you even in avenging me of mine enemies, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
To fully appreciate what is being said in section 103, brother Gileadi needs to carefully read the parable of the redemption of Zion in section 101.
My interpretation of the above passages is that Joseph Smith is the servant mentioned in the parable of the redemption of Zion that is given in section 101 and that he will literally fulfill the parable to the letter.
He will, as unconditionally stated in the above passages, be raise up and will go forth in power.
He will lead the Lords people forth with a stretched forth arm just as Moses did. Just as Moses was successful at leading the children of Israel out of bondage, Joseph Smith will be successful in leading the latter day saints out of bondage.
Verse 26 informs us that when Joseph Smith returns, it will be during the time of the 3rd and 4th generation of those living back in 1834 that hate the Lord.
Ask Brother Gileadi to show why the above interpretation is wrong.
I am not looking for his personal opinion as to why we do or don’t need someone to return from the dead, I am asking him to explain why he disregards the literal declarations of the Lord.
Now, the next passage I want to present is found in Section one of the D&C, the same section that the Lord declares that all of the promises and prophecies will be fulfilled:
“1 HEARKEN, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.
2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.
3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.
4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.”
In my opinion, a literal interpretation of the above passages would indicate that when the appointed time comes, Gods servants will go forth providing a voice of warning. The servants are described as “my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.”
As you can see, that disciples that go forth warning the people in power, had already been chosen by the Lord by the time that revelation was given in November of 1831.
Providing even more clarity as to who the servant are, the Lord declares that the servants being referenced are the same disciple that had been commissioned to publish the revelations in the BofC and the D&C.
As I am sure you are and brother Gileadi are aware, the committee that was commissioned to publish the revelations was composed of Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery and Frederick G. Williams
The way I interpret that unconditional promise and prophecy by the Lord is that those four individuals will be among the ones that go forth in power with the voice of warning to the inhabitants of the world.
Please ask brother Gileadi if he disagrees with my literal interpretation of the above passages and if in fact they are not congruent with the prophecies contained in sections 101 and 103.
there are other passages the support the ones mentioned above which I will bring up in the live debate.
Finally, you made the following statement:
“Treading carefully again in my opinion, you and I need to be more careful about how we speculate in this last space of time before the “winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon..” our house. Our church members are not reading the scriptures like we should and thus we are easily drawn away from what the scriptures are actually saying….etc…”
The problem with you directing the above statement to me is that it applies to brother Gileadi more than it does to me.
I am the one backing my conclusions up with scripture. He is the one throwing out personal opinions about people not needing to come back from the dead without providing any scriptural support for what he was saying.
I look forward to hearing brother Gileadi’s responses to my above questions and I am hopeful that he would be willing to have a personal discussion with me in public or in private.
Thank you for your consideration
To OneWhoIsWatching:
BTW…thank you for watching.
I guess I don’t know what to do now. My background is fairly weak, in regards to Davidic Servants and the like, but when I was first introduced to the subject it was intriguing, and I can see why you like it. I respect your passion and wish sincerely to be in your ward where we could discuss this stuff face to face.
Anyway…my everyday job is to work with a group of exemplary Chabad Jews in Brooklyn, NY and they teach me things which truly fascinate. To be sure, almost every Ephraimite Latter-day Saint would be happy to have JS as the Servant; that is we are happy after we have gotten over our seminary training about the Servant being the Savior and no other. 🙂
My friends in Brooklyn, after all, want the Messiah (or the Servant for that matter) to be Rabbi Menachem Schneerson which would also please me because he’s a late great shepherd of his people. Schneerson and Smith are like Moses to their flocks and I love them both for what they did, but they aren’t here.
I have considered your challenge with some contemplation and necessary delay, but I respectfully don’t think it’s appropriate for the student to challenge or inspire the schoolmaster to a debate; it’s not my place or privilege. Brother G. demonstrates well enough on page 46 of “The Book of Isaiah, A New Translation With Interpretive Keys from the Book of Mormon” the contemporaneous political rivalry between the King of Assyria and the Davidic Servant. He’s said he had to study the text of Isaiah for a long time (and over and over) before he was comfortable with an interpretation. Brother G. paid the price of scholarship many years ago and I trust him on this subject.
Back to the Servant…In other words the bad guy Archtyrant King [of Assyria] and the good guy Davidic King will be duking it out on the world political stage in this life before the Coming of Messiah.
My question to you is, how, in your mind, can the deceased Joseph who represents the House of Joseph be the political Davidic King (Judah) in a realm even the realm of this mortal telestial earth; how can he JS be here after he has already transcended this place? As I understand the nature of progression, great prophets like Joseph move up and move on into a higher realm which is well out of our reach. Please give me something more to understand about your understanding of Joseph as a Davidic figure when he is a “Josephic” figure as the Lord has declared. If you have already addressed the progressive nature of beings like Brother Joseph and the Savior I apologize, but I thought we can’t be where they are until we have progressed and we’ll need a telestial being (like a separate Davidic King) to help us get to Zion from this world to the next.
Thank you for all your past blogs and your consideration of my question.
Jonathan Felt
Jonathan
We cannot move forward in this conversation until my questions are answered.
I understand from your response that you are unwilling to pass my challenge to brother Gileadi, on to him.
Apparently his exalted status as the “teacher” cannot condescend to debate a lowly “student” such as me.
Nevertheless, did you at least ask him to respond to the series of questions that I posed?
After all, he had assured you that he would NEVER reject anything the Lord says, yet I showed you that he has rejected something that the Lord said.
You claim that he answers your questions succinctly.
Don’t you personally want to know how he would respond to the questions? Does it concern you at all that he has denied revelation? If he refuses to believe the unconditional promises of an all knowing God that has all time, past, present and future before His eyes, then nothing else that Brother Gileadi has to say, has any credibility.
You are now asking me to speculate on how I perceive the return of Joseph Smith to be possible despite your personal assumptions of how progression works, but these questions you are asking are irreverent and just a distraction to change the topic and avoid responding to the original questions that I have presented to Brother Gileadi. This is not about me and my opinions.
It is about the unconditional promises of the Lord and why Brother Gileadi has rejected these promises. I am happy to leave it up to the Lord as to how he will make good on his promises. He has told us that his word never returns to him void.
You seem to be convinced that Joseph Smith only represents the “House of Joseph” and therefore cannot be the Davidic Servant because he is not from the lineage of David. Did you get that assumption from Gileadi?
Apparently you did not take the time to read the thesis I gave you and you are unaware that Joseph is being described in 2 Sam 7 as the descendent of David.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the fact that there are two end times servants that are of mixed lineage. The “Rod” servant is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or the house of Joseph. The “Root” servant is a descendant of Jesse as well as of Joseph, unto who rightly belongs the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom.
The throne of King David was re-established by Joseph Smith as per the petition in section 109 to begin taking the “yoke” of bondage off of the House of David. A king of the Davidic lineage has rule over Israel ever since, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
But again, there is no need to get side-tracked here. Why don’t you ask for a response from Brother Gileadi to the simple questions I asked? Does he reject modern revelation? Do you?
I will not post any more of your comments until you provide a response from Brother Gileadi.
Thanks for visiting and sharing Brother Gileadi’s scripturally undocumented opinion about how God will not be returning Joseph Smith back to the earth to fulfill his mission, as promised in multiple revelations, and both of Joseph Smith’s patriarchal blessings.
We have caught the attention of the messianic Jews in Israel. Makes sense, the gentiles and/or gentile church ha
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Copyright © 2011 Jewish Heritage s for the most part expired. Next step is the Kingdom though the church will unavoidably be set in order.
The gentile church will unavoidably be set in order as the Kingdom comes in
Because the comments were closed in “The History Essays Addressing Controversial Issues”, I’d like to offer the following regarding Priesthood restrictions to the seed of Cain, omitting any remarks or quotes from Brigham Young, whom you dismiss as a valid source of legitimacy. Please address your opinion of the following:
Moses: 7:22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Book of Abraham in Pearl of Great Price: “”Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.”
Joseph Smith Jr. said: “I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then to name certain passages from the Bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon the matter as the fact is uncontrovertible, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation, and walked with God. And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude! ‘And he said cursed be Canaan: a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem: and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem: and Canaan shall be his servant.’ (Gen. 9:25–27.) Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfillment of this singular prophecy.” (Apr. 1836, in Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 290; paragraphing omitted.)
“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species.” (Joseph Smith Jr., 2 Jan. 1843, “History of Joseph Smith,” The Deseret News [weekly], vol. 5, no. 52, edited by Albert Carrington [Great Salt Lake City: 5 Mar. 1856], p. 409; also History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 5, introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City, Utah: Published by the Church via Deseret News, 1909], pp. 217–18.)
“The notion of amalgamation is devilish!—And insensible to feeling must be the heart, and low indeed must be the mind, that would consent for a moment, to see his fair daughter, his sister, or perhaps, his bosom companion, in the embrace of a NEGRO!” (Oliver Cowdery, Apr. 1836, “The Abolitionists,” Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 300.)
In the Book of Ezra, we read that “the people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. … O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments, which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness. Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons. … And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? O Lord God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.” (Ezra 9:1–2, 10–12, 13–15.)
“The curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before Him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do His own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel.” (Joseph Smith Jr., Apr. 1836, in Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 290.)
Cathy
Thank you for you comments and the quotes that you provided.
If you know anything about me then you realize that my foundation is the holy word of God in the scriptures. Secondly, to the extent that their words are congruent with scripture, I also consider the words of modern prophets such as Joseph and Sidney. I am even willing to consider something that Brigham Young and his apostate brethren of the Utah Saints said if and when it happens to be consistent with the word of God
Let me share an observation with you regarding the three scriptural supports that you have offered to back up your supposition about priesthood restriction.
All three of them are not only pre New Testament, they were also made prior to the scattering of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel among ALL of the heathen nations.
Why does this matter?
Because CONTEXT and TIMING is everything when it comes to this particular topic.
You see, prior to Israel being scattered, it is true that the chosen had been kept separate from the other seedlines and commanded not to mingle with them. Sadly, they did eventually mingle with the other seedlines.
Things have changed since those ancient times and after Israel was scattered.
Satan thought he could thwart the gospel plan by getting the chosen seedline to mingle with the other seedlines among the gentile/heathen nations.
But the God of Israel, who is always several steps ahead of old Scratch has told us that he will mystically gather his chosen seed from among ALL nations in the latter days despite the fact that they will be packaged in tabernacles of varying colors.
Because of the traditions of his fathers, Peter made the same mistake you are making when he had a prophetic vision to prepare his heart to take the gospel to the gentile/heathen nations.
“Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
nd there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.”
Of course it was contrary to the law Peter had been taught to eat unclean animals and furthermore, the deeper meaning of the vision was that Peter was to take the Gospel to those that had previously been labeled as unclean and unworthy of the Gospel.
Hence Peter sought to instruct the Lord, or, at the very least, show the Lord that he was holding fast to the law that he had been taught. therefore Peter exclaimed:
“Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.”
But Peter was in for a huge rebuke and paradigm change
” And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Cæsarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
”
Paul also understood this great secret as he began preaching the gospel among the gentiles declaring that God “hath made of one blood all nations of men”
If you will search the New Testament, the Book of Mormon and the D&C, you will not find any scriptures the support the supposition that the separation of seedlines and associated laws pertaining to that fact still apply. Quite the opposite. We are now informed that the wheat and the tares are all mingled together and that color of skin and supposed seedline is not the requisite for participation in the gospel or the priesthood. The gospel is available to all who believe and the priesthood, when the true gospel is on the earth, is determined by prophecy. Indeed we are informed that the seedline of Christ is composed and identified by the following parameter:
“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?” Mosiah 15:10-12
When Jesus was approached by the hypocrites that could show their lineage from abraham, who no doubt had the appearance of being white and delightsome, he exclaimed to them
“ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep..”
He then declared that the sole qualifying attribute that identifies a person, regardless of the color of their skin as one of his elect, is that they hear His voice and follow him:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
So, I agree with the passages of scripture that you provided, when read in the proper context , realizing that they referred to the ancient times when the two general seedlines had been kept separate. However things had radically changed.
With regard to the statements of Joseph Smith, which were given in 1836 and 1844, I can also find statements by and his close associates that seem to contradict those, which were given during the early Kirtland era in the midst of the revelatory sweet spot of the restoration during a time when Blacks were given priesthood under his watch and full knowledge. However it is not necessary for me to take the time to dig through my notes to find them because the four standard works have made it very clear what the truth of the matter is on this subject.
Thank you for a thoughtful question and for visiting the blog!
tried to counsel the Lord during his vision of the
Hi Watcher,
I want to thank you for your blog and sharing your thoughts. It has helped me make sense of so much.
I would like to be one of the proofreaders of your new book. I’m pretty good at grammar, spelling and usage. And I love the the subject matter!
I hope you will
Great! I will contact you when the book is ready
Hello OWIW,
I was wondering if you could send me a pdf of the timeline of Church Histopry you used in your YouTube video?
My e-mail is jeffreyclinton12@yahoo.com
Thanks!
I sent it let me know if you did not get it
I got it. Thank you !
Watcher,
Can I get an e-mail of the time line you provided in your youtube videos for my personal study?
I just sent it.. let me know if you don’t get it
Hello Watcher,
I just finished watching your two videos, on the “secret history of Mormonism”.
Could I please make a request for the PDF of that slide you used?
If its not too much, my email is: francisedetz@gmail.com
Thanks!
Francis.
Oops! Sorry for the typo….
“Can I” not. “Could I” .
Watcher, was it you that did a commentary on Joseph Fielding Smith and his teaching about the meridian of time and the earth timeline being 8000 years rather than 7000? Or did I read that somewhere else?
Yes
If JFS was correct in his general interpretation and if my understanding of his interpretation is correct, the end of the second seal would be in 2017 which means that the servants need to return and the marvelous work must begin pretty darn soon!
Hello Watcher. I recently awoke or at least have begun to awaken. Since August I’m no longer blindly following the brethren and traditions of the church. I’m still active at church, but I’m very confused. I was raised in the church, served a mission, married in the temple, and have always been active. Though I’ve committed my fair share of sins and am at best an unworthy servant of Christ, I have always tried to do what’s right. I never questioned or wavered in my belief that the church was the Lord’s true church and that the brethren were true prophets and apostles, but now I’m not so sure. Something is off. I recently found your blog and I’m thankful I did. I admit I have been reading your recent posts and have kind of bounced around through different posts of yours and haven’t read through all your blogs in order on your sister blog, but I plan to as I have time. I have a few questions for you and I don’t know how to get a hold of you except for in this comment section.
I have four kids, the oldest is 9 and I baptized him when he was 8 before I woke up. My next child turns 8 in the spring. In your opinion is it ok to baptize her? I’m not sure what priesthood authority, if any, I actually possess. I’m also very concerned about my children and even myself being mislead by corrupted and false doctrine at church, but I don’t know if leaving the church and the support system of fellow believers of Christ. It’s very frustrating.
For the most part I find your blog very enlightening, but I have questions about a few of the things you teach. One question from a recent post of yours is about John the Baptist and Elijah. You say they are the same person, but the JST of John 1 says that they aren’t the same person. It also appears from the D&C that Joseph Smith understood them to be different people since he refers to them by theit seperate names. Any thoughts? I have other questions too, is there a better way to reach you?
Hi MC. You can reach me at onewhoiswatching@gmail.com
I will respond to your via my next “notable email” series.
Thanks
Watcher
I read the Morley Farm posts. I am grateful you were able to put all that together in a way that made sense. I had to let go of many traditions to understand it. Thank you.
Thank you for the kind feedback.. great to hear from you
I’ve just read and truly enjoyed your Commentary re: Br Gileadi’s position that Joseph will not be brought back to fulfill D&C revelation.
FIRST: I happen to agree with you about Joseph’s return. My beliefcstems not only from scripture, but from the Patriarchal blessing his father gave him.
SECOND: not knowing Gileadi’s intent and not wanting to second guess his perspective, I lean in agreement with him as well.
I believe you MAY BOTH BE CORRECT!
Gileadi’s Isaiah analysis takes me into the realm of understanding “a” last days servant of significance” will arise from the remnant. I may be well off track, but I suspect this significant servant may reside among what we call our Lamamite remnant. I know they will provide a prophet and servants that comprise a force (within the 144,000????) That will “call out and powerfully convert” Lamanites and remnant people’s to build the New Jerusalem.
While you might wish we are might be more confident in proclaiming our beliefs and testimony, as a woman in the Church I’ve been admonished far too often to keep my passionate learning’s to myself (asked by the priesthood). Not because I voice them in gatherings or classes, etc, but because they influence my obedience to the “gospel” and the Scriptures. I gave studied extensively in my 54 yrs as a member and find others are not on the same page as I often have open in my studies.
NOW… HOW COULD YOU BOTH BE CORRECT?
I know ( the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me) that Joseph will play a prophetic role within his eternal stewardship and keys in “these” soon to be acknowledged, last days. We need his “keys” (and I won’t say more about that).
Joseph’s role as a “seer” and translator may also play a significant role. His love for the LAMANITES most certainly is essential. Not to throw stones, but when we are told to “carry them in our shoulders” and we drop them so harshly and demean them so entirely, we need Joseph’s example of love and mentoring.If my interpretations from my studies are correct, I believe you can see how you both may be correct.
I KNOW I am not entirely wrong in either of these analysis, but I’ll not impose my perspectives on anyone
To read Joseph snrs Patriarchal blessing upon Joseph, please refer to the book Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, pg 175.
Could you please send me a copy of your timeline as displayed on you tube. Thank you for your efforts.
Just sent it to you let me know if you did not get it.
How might I get a pdf copy of your timeline?
My email is onewhoiswatching@gmail.com.
contact me and I will send the pdf as an attachment
Don’t put your email in this comment section
I really appreciate what you have done so far as exposing all of this false doctrine and claims from these men in Brazil and Bob Moore and Joseph F. Smith. I have also been contending against all of this here myself in Missouri. I have some information about all of this for you if you want to reach out to me through email. Thanks again for everything you have done!
Hey I am sorry about the delay responding. I just saw this message and released it. feel free to contact me at onewhoiswatching [at ] gmail dot come
It seems that the olive tree allegory refers to Joseph Smith being a good root. But needing all these wild branches to give strength to the root and someday the divine will reach down and put some branches onto the good root
could someone help me to identify if the recent discovery of gold plates in central america are real? this is the video of the gold plates discovered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPNHsQQEa64&t=3s
What is this and why don’t we no more about it?
How do I send you a comment about your last blog about Morgan Philpot
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I’m very interested in the presentation you posted by Wayne May regarding the Kinderhook plates. However, the link takes me to a youtube page that states “this video is private” with no other info. Do you have an alternative way for me to find this presentation? Much thanks.
Sadly Wayne controls and apparently decided to limit who can listen to the outube.
I don’t know why he changed it from public to private.
you would need to contact him to see if he will give you access.