Sealing up the Testimony- Part Four- Old Covenant and New Covenant

The Terrestrial Souls are Saved without Repentance during Probation

Paul reveals the great mystery that Gods people have had a blindness put upon them that has obscured their vision and prevented them from accepting the fullness of the gospel until a set time when the fullness of the Gentiles finally comes in and Gods deliverer triumphantly comes out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11


Have you ever wondered how ALL Israel can be saved from UN-RIGHTEOUSNESS into RIGHTEOUSNESS?

After all, the children of Israel rejected the higher law when Moses tried to get them to see the face of God were a very wicked and rebellious people.

After Moses plead with God to not wipe them off the face of the earth, God told them that he was only going to delay their punishment… he warned that in the last days they would feel his wrath.

Modern revelation tells us that the Jews [kingdom of Judah] only come forth to their salvation AFTER THEIR PAIN.

And they also of the tribe of Judah after their pain shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night for ever and ever.” (section 133:35)

Incredible.

It appears the holiness of the Lord will sanctify the terrestrials after they endure their pain.

Although they will not receive the fulness of the father, they will be able to dwell in the presence of Christ forever.

The Book of Mormon and other ancient documents testify that most of latter day Israel will be just as wicked as ancient Israel, their forefathers, and will make war against the Lamb of God prior to his second coming.

behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (1 Nephi 11)

Also, did you catch the last verse in Rom 11?

This particular set of gifts and eternal calling that is given to terrestrial Israel comes without repentance.

This is a specific reference to the incredible truth taught in sections 76&88, that the terrestrial souls do not repent and accept the fulness of the gospel during probation, they conform with, and comply to the law after they are brought forth from the dead to be judged according to men in the flesh.

They are not valiant in gaining the TESTIMONY of Jesus during probation.

This is an amazing concept that God is going to save the portion of Israel who are clearly not the elect and who apparently don’t even repent during probation.

Paul was paraphrasing what Isaiah had prophesied about the deliverer that would come to Zion

When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

20 ¶ And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.” Isa 59

As strange as it seems the whole house of Israel will be saved (from outer darkness), we are told that, time after time in the scriptures, not just from those two passages from Isaiah and Paul.

Here are a few more

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isa. 45: 17

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer. 23: 6

13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong. Zech. 8: 13

25 And Israel shall be saved in mine own due time; and by the keys which I have given shall they be led, and no more be confounded at all. D&C 35: 25

33 And from thence, whosoever I will shall go forth among all nations, and it shall be told them what they shall do; for I have a great work laid up in store, for Israel shall be saved, and I will lead them whithersoever I will, and no power shall stay my hand. D&C 38: 33

12 And in that day all who are found upon the watch-tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved.
D&C 101: 12

Notice from the Book of Mormon how Christ spoke about the fulfilling of the covenant of the Lord to the house of Israel

4 And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.

5 And then will I gather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfil the covenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the house of Israel.

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them. (3rd Nephi 16)

The First and Second Harvest

Why is it that sometimes the scriptures only talk about the REMNANT of Israel that will be saved and other times it assures us that ALL of Israel will be saved?

Because there are two separate covenants, two separate salvations… two separate harvests being talked about.

The elect of Israel are first gathered out from among the tares during the first harvest. ( Culminating in the resurrection of the Just)

These are they that were valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

The remainder of Israel will be gathered out by the elect, during the second or third harvest.

He then will turn all of Jacob from transgression even though they did not accept the fulness of the gospel during probation.

How can he do this?

God says “this is my covenant with them

What covenant is God referring to?

Under what covenant is terrestrial Israel saved?

It is done under the covenant he had with Abraham their Father.

That is right, there are two gospel laws and two gospel covenants and two levels of salvation at play in the end times. It does not have to do with whether a person was living in Old Testament times or New Testament times, indeed there were people who lived according to the new and everlasting covenant during the Old Testament and there are people living the Gospel of Abraham right now, in these latter days.

The Fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ

The fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the covenant that saves the elect and makes them HOLY by grace through faith. Indeed they “overcome by faith and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise which the Father sheds upon all those who are just and true” (76:53+) “the Just shall live by faith”

The Preparatory Gospel of Abraham

The preparatory gospel, even the Abrahamic Covenant is the covenant that saves the terrestrials and makes them RIGHTEOUS by grace through works.

These are they who “died without law” and “who received not the TESTIMONY of Jesus in the flesh but after wards received it”.

“These are they who are not valiant in the TESTIMONY of Jesus wherefore they receive not the crown over the kingdom” Why? “because they were deceived by the craftiness of men”.

They are “the spirits of men kept in prison” who are brought forth at the time of redemption to “receive the gospel” and “be judged according to men in the flesh“.

After receiving the gospel and conforming to gospel law and being baptized, they will be righteous and will “receive of the presence of the Son but not the fulness of the father.” (76:72-77 & 88)

The existence of two saving covenants is revealed in Ether 13 where the two levels of salvation and the two groups or cities of saved beings are identified as the “New Jerusalem” (Celestial) and the “Old Jerusalem” (Terrestrial).

The New Jerusalem is the holy city that descends with Christ at his coming. It is inhabited by those who became NEW creatures through the new and everlasting covenant established by Christ.

The Old Jerusalem is the righteous city that meets Christ at his coming, after their pain, when he descends with his Elect. They are those who come under the OLD covenant established through Abraham.

The New Jerusalem

Notice how the elect of God are described in verves 3 & 10 of chapter 13 of Ether and are referred to as the “New Jerusalem” and how they come down from heaven, descending with Christ at his coming in the holy sanctuary of the Lord. They are MADE WHITE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB because they received the testimony and accepted the fullness of the gospel during probation.

The Old Jerusalem

The Terrestrial portion of Israel is referred to in verse 11 of chapter 13 as the “Old Jerusalem“. They have BEEN WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB and have entered into their portion of salvation because they were PARTAKERS OF THE FULFILLING OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD MADE WITH THEIR FATHER ABRAHAM

If you did not already understand this concept pertaining to the two gospel covenants and gospel laws, and yet have still not experienced an epiphany, I suggest you read the above paragraphs again.

This is incredible.

It will explain a multitude of scriptures that have previously been confusing and it proves that both the gospel of works and the gospel of faith are both taught in the scriptures as separate and distinct doctrines and as separate and distinct levels of salvation.

Something New Must be Done for the Salvation of the Church

As explained in previous posts, the restored church had a 3 1/2 year period during which they attempted to comprehend the Celestial Light of the Celestial Law from mid June 1831 to late December 1834. Shortly after they cumulatively rejected the FULNESS of the Gospel, the Prophet Joseph Smith proclaimed that the Lord had revealed to him that “Something new must be done for the Salvation of the Church“.

All of this coincided with the restoration of the Gospel of Abraham that took place in the Kirtland Temple in 1836.

This enabled the Church to live a lesser gospel law.

Now, instead of striving to-

1- be baptized of water, fire and Holy Ghost,

2- gain the testimony of Jesus by being  transfigured and to see and hear the Father testify of the Son, and

3- to establish Zion,

the new goal of the church was to-

1- believe,

2- be baptized and to

3- endure to the end.

Shortly after the restoration of the Gospel of Abraham, the apostles were sent to foreign missions to take the preparatory gospel of Abraham to the world. (if you read their mandate of the Lord to them in section 112 and compare it to the mandate he gave to the 12 apostles in other places you will be amazed at the difference)

Later in this series we shall see that there are two levels of salvation, three degrees of glory and four categories of souls spoken of in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Section 76 was actually not revealing a complex plan of salvation that was not already taught in the New Testament!

The New Testament actually lists all four categories of souls that inhabit this earth.

One level of salvation has to do with becoming RIGHTEOUS while the other level has to do with becoming HOLY.

We shall see that the TESTIMONY given by the Seer and the Spokesman in section 76 contained the plan of salvation that had already been taught in the New Testament. (more on this in part six)

To be continued

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25 Responses to Sealing up the Testimony- Part Four- Old Covenant and New Covenant

  1. I added the following paragraph to the above post

    Something New Must be Done for the Salvation of the Church

    As explained in previous posts, the restored church had a 3 1/2 year period during which they attempted to comprehend the Celestial Light of the Celestial Law from mid June 1831 to late December 1834.

    Shortly after they cumulatively rejected the FULNESS of the Gospel, the Prophet Joseph Smith proclaimed that the Lord had revealed to him that “Something new must be done for the Salvation of the Church”.

    All of this coincided with the restoration of the Gospel of Abraham that took place in the Kdrtland Temple in 1836.

    This enables the Church to attempt to comprehend The Terrestrial Light of the Terrestrial Law.

    Now, instead of striving to-

    1- be baptized of water, fire and Holy Ghost,

    2- gain the testimony of Jesus by being transfigured and to see and hear the Father testify of the Son, and

    3- to establish Zion,

    the new goal of the church was to-

    1- believe,

    2- be baptized and to

    3- endure to the end.

    Shortly after the restoration of the Gospel of Abraham, the apostles were sent to foreign missions to take the preparatory gospel of Abraham to the world.

  2. Watcher, this is certainly food for thought. Thanks for the post.

  3. Fusion says:

    Watcher,

    Are there to be two New Jerusalems- one descending from heaven and the other to be built by the Lamanites and assisted by the repentant Gentiles?

  4. Yes

    The scriptures speak of the New Jerusalem that descends from heaven and also the new Jerusalem that is built by the Lamanites and repentant Gentiles

  5. Does it really say that the Lamanites are going to build the New Jerusalem? If so, where?

  6. Very in interesting question..

    There are two passages in 3rd Nephi that you and I have discussed before Anarchist. I have always taken the position that they are referring to the return of the Nephites that Jesus was speaking to, not to their posterity.

    It is commonly taught that the Lamanites help build the New Jerusalem, and I have never really search for other passages that might support that contention… but I am not sure it actually comes out and says that anywhere in scripture… that might be an interesting research project.

    I guess I have assumed that when the Marvelous Work begins, there will be those of the seed of Lehi that repent and accept the fulness of the gospel, and if that is the case, it seems like they would join with those that return to build the city…

    I am sure there will be a mass conversion of the seed of Lehi, however, I don’t know if they respond to the fulness or not..

    It seems like this passage in 3rd Nephi indicates that everyone that repents will help

    23 And they [repentant Gentiles] shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

    We have lots of quotes from the Brighamites that make the claim that the Lamanites will build the NJ but their declarations seem to come from the two passages in 3rd Nephi

    Here is a typical declaration from O Pratt

    These Lamanites, or American Indians, that are now so far sunk beneath humanity, are to be lifted up by the power of the Almighty when the day shall come for Israel to be restored, for God will not forget them. They are descendants of the tribe of Joseph, and consequently they are numbered with the people of the covenant. God will remember the covenant which he made with our ancient fathers. These Lamanites, these American Indians, will come to the knowledge of the covenant, and they will arise and will build upon the face of this land a magnificent city called Jerusalem, after the pattern and in the same manner that the Jews will build old Jerusalem. That is what the Lamanites will do, and we will go and help them too, for it is predicted in the Book of Mormon that when this work should come forth, when the time fully arrives for the redemption of this small remnant of the house of Joseph, “As many of the Gentiles as will believe, they shall assist my people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel, that they may build up on the face of this land a city that shall be called the New Jerusalem, and then, behold, the powers of heaven shall come down and be in the midst of this people, and I also will be in your midst.”

    “Zion must be redeemed before the coming of Christ, the temple must be built upon the consecrated spot, the cloud and glory of the Lord rest upon it, and the Lamanites, many of them, brought in, and they must build up the New Jerusalem.”

  7. And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel. (Ether 13:10)

    But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; and they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem. (3 Nephi 21:22-23)

    Consider that one scripture mentions a more general numbering (the seed of Joseph), which would be Ephraim and Manasseh, while the other mentions a more specific numbering (the remnant of Jacob that Jesus Christ was speaking to), which would be the Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites and Zoramites, who were also numbered among the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

    The present day Lamanites are a mixture of the seed of Laman and of Lemuel and of the sons of Ishmael, with the seed of all the Nephite dissenters (Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites and Zoramites.) Not to mention all the subsequent mixing that may have occurred with Asians (according to the DNA data.) We (the latter-day saints) call them Lamanites in their current, confounded, blinded or obscured state, but if and when these people are converted to the Lord, will they call themselves Lamanites?

    The gospel covenants given to the ancients of this land were through Lehi and Nephi, not through Lehi and Laman. Laman and his followers got a promise of having their seed not destroyed and of them one day being restored and no longer being cut off from the presence of the Lord, but prior to that first “cut off” point, it was Nephi who was the one who reigned and ministered. The book of 1 Nephi is, after all, all about his “Reign and Ministry.”

    To Nephi were the promises and covenants extended, and also to all who were called his people, which is why all the Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Mulekites, and Amulonites, etc., all eventually adopted the name of Nephi, calling themselves “Nephites.”

    The word “Lehites” is not found anywhere in the scriptures, because it wasn’t the Lehites (all the descendants of Lehi) that had the covenantal promises, but only those that called themselves “the Nephites.” The Lamanites were, are, and always have been all those who dissented from Nephi or the Nephites–Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael being the first Nephite dissenters.

    So, converted Lamanites, who learn that they are descendents of Laman, should not be expected to retain the name of Laman, after their conversion. This could be why it is never stated in the scriptures that “the Lamanites” will build the New Jerusalem. Yes, it is stated that the Lamanites will blossom as a rose, but after they blossom, will they take upon themselves the name of Nephi, as did their converted fathers? And what of those Lamanites who learn of their true history and genealogy through the restored records, but who don’t repent of their sins? Will they continue to call themselves by their current tribal designations, or will they take upon themselves the name of Laman, calling themselves Lamanites, and begin to fight the Nephites, as their fathers did?

    My point in all this is that it might be more prophetically accurate to say that the New Jerusalem will be built by a people calling themselves “Nephites,” not “Lamanites,” and that they will be composed of many different people, both of the house of Israel and of the Gentiles, both of the literal seed of Lehi (of any of his sons), as well as those who are not his literal seed, and that all these people will possibly be numbered among the four ancient Nephite tribes (Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites and Zoramites.)

    If the land of Lehi-Nephi is the actual spot in which the New Jerusalem will be built, which I believe it is, it is instructive that it was anciently called “Lehi-Nephi,” since the covenant went from Lehi through Nephi, not through any other son. That land was also called simply, “Nephi,” again possibly showing that only through Nephi (or through those calling themselves Nephites) was the New Jerusalem going to be established.

  8. Those are very interesting observations. I don’t disagree, and that is why I said that while I think the seed of Lehi may be converted after the marvelous work begins, I don’t know if they will accept the fulness.

    The Nephite covenant theology is very interesting. I have been lately examining how Moses and Samuel are considered by many Bible scholars to be the two primary mortal intercessors during Old Testament time, springing from God’s declaration in Jeremiah 15:1, when the Lord, in his anger, cast the kingdom of Judah out of his sight, among the nations:

    THEN said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.”

    It is very possible that Nephi was an intercessor for his people

    My question to you Anarchist is, why would the Nephites continue to call themselves Nephites while building the temple? Would they not call themselves after the name of Christ?

  9. The ancients of this land took upon themselves the name of Christ, but they did not call themselves Christians. “Christian” was the name given to them by the unbelievers.

    And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—for thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.

    And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.

    And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored. (Alma 46:13-16)

    The covenant with Nephi concerning the blessings he and his posterity and all those who would be called by his name was perpetual:

    and I will bless thee
    and whomsoever shall be called thy seed
    henceforth and forever (Alma 3:17)

    See also these two comments:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/mormonism-as-the-coming-state-religion-and-other-crazy-thoughts/#comment-16615

    and

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lehis-josephite-prophecy/#comment-16925

    After you read those two comments, then read this answer to your questions:

    It has to do with tribal designations, or the tribal doctrine. The Lord gives tribal designations or names to his people to distinguish them from other people:

    And now it came to pass that the king and those who were converted were desirous that they might have a name, that thereby they might be distinguished from their brethren; therefore the king consulted with Aaron and many of their priests, concerning the name that they should take upon them, that they might be distinguished.

    But when the people are one, there is no more need to distinguish them from one another, hence we get this period of time:

    There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

    The Nephite designation, as the name given to the Lord’s people, will exist as long as the populations of this land are not one. In other words, as long as there are wicked people living in this land, the name “Nephite” will always be used as the designation of the Lord’s covenant people. So, during the Millennium, these designations will be done away with, for all will be one, but at the end of the Millennium, when wicked men appear again, they will be brought back. It is the same pattern seen in 4 Nephi, and it is according to the law of expediency.

    The building up of the New Jerusalem will occur while there are wicked upon this continent, thus there must, of necessity, be again those who will take upon themselves the name of Nephi in the land, to distinguish themselves from the wicked. Nephi and Laman, or Nephites and Lamanites, appear to be the names designated by the Lord, for those who follow Him and those who dissent, so we can expect also a group of people to appear who call themselves Lamanites, at some point in the future.

  10. “The building up of the New Jerusalem will occur while there are wicked upon this continent, thus there must, of necessity, be again those who will take upon themselves the name of Nephi in the land, to distinguish themselves from the wicked.”

    Are you suggesting that the gentiles that repent will be called Nephites? If not, what does you theory suggest that they will they be called?

  11. I am suggesting that when the remnant is restored, they will call themselves Nephites, not Lamanites. And when that happens, the Gentiles who repent and join these new Nephites, will be numbered with them and also will be called Nephites. As well as all the other people of the house of Israel that joins them. Everyone that joins these people will be called Nephites. And it will be these people, who call themselves Nephites, that build the New Jerusalem.

    The current Gentiles that repent, during this time in which the remnant has not yet been restored, have taken other tribal designations upon them (Ephraim, Manaseh, etc.), which pertains to the umbrella covenants (Abraham and Joseph), but nobody but Nephites, meaning nobody but this people that I am speaking of, who will call themselves Nephites, will be able to build the New Jerusalem, because that work pertains specifically to the Nephic covenant, he and his posterity and those who are called his people being the ones chosen to perform that work.

    Thus, although it may be technically correct to say that there will be descendents of Laman who participate, these descendents will call themselves “the people of Nephi.” They will not self-identify as Lamanites, since the designations “Nephite” and “Lamanite,” in antiquity, represented who you followed, not who was your ancestor. And the spirit of antiquity will be upon the land, which spirit I got a major taste of in January of this year.

  12. Your interpretations are very interesting and I appreciate you sharing them on this forum. I have a few more questions if you of a mind to humor me.

    It is my understanding that it is the Gentiles that usher in the Marvelous Work and take the gospel to the rest of the house of Israel. If that is the case, why would the Gentiles that usher in the Marvelous Work and then need to become Nephites? If the primary covenant of this land is only with the Nephite remnant, wouldn’t it make sense that they would usher in the Marvelous Work?

    I am having a disconnect with your theory, assuming that I am understanding it properly.

  13. Actually, OWIW, I don’t know why I’m writing this stuff here. I do this all the time, writing things on other people’s blogs instead of putting it on my own blog…

    Okay, so on to your question:

    My understanding is that the latter half of Mormon chapter 8 (from verse 25 onward) is speaking of the same period of time that 2 Nephi 28 speaks of, which is still future to us.

    In verse 24 Moroni says,

    Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

    So, the Nephite record will come forth twice, once during the time of Joseph Smith, and again at a future time, which will restore the Book of Lehi, etc. If memory serves me correctly, the scriptures do not say that the Gentiles will be the ones that restore the fulness and records, but that the fulness will first go to the Gentiles, be rejected, and then taken to the house of Israel (the remnant.) Joseph was a Gentile, of the house of Ephraim, but there is also supposed to be a Josephite restorer, meaning a literal descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi, that was to bring about “much restoration.” It would appear, then, that the restoration starts with a Gentile Ephraimite (Joseph Smith) and then is to be completed by a descendant of Joseph (son of Lehi), who we can assume was of the tribe of Manasseh. Whether this man will also be a Gentile, I don’t know. If I had to venture a guess, I would say, “yes,” just to complete the pattern (Gentile Ephraimite and then Gentile Manassehite.)

    Whether the man is a Gentile, living among the Gentiles, having been raised by the Gentiles, etc., or whether he will be an Indian, living on a reservation, raised with Indian traditions, etc., doesn’t really matter. This Josephite restorer will usher in the marvelous work among the Gentiles first (which may indicate that he has been raised as a Gentile), and then it will go to the remnant, restoring them.

    His purpose will be to restore what the Nephites had. A Gentile convert would not be able to accept the new records, traditions, teachings and covenants, that the Josephite restorer restores, which are all about the ancient Nephite system, without entering into the same covenant and living the same Nephite system. It would be impossible. You either accept the new stuff, and become a Nephite like unto the ancients of this land, or you must reject it and remain a Gentile.

    The Lord, in His mercy, will essentially give the Gentiles the option to “enter in and partake” of the same covenants and system and blessings given to the Nephites, by becoming Nephites themselves. The Gentiles get first dibs at entering into the covenant because the remnant of this land broke it.

    Most Gentiles will reject this “fulness,” while some will accept it. After the rejection, the “fulness” will be taken to the remnant and most of the remnant will accept it, while some will not. Those that accept it, must, of necessity, become Nephites (for that is the only way to accept it.)

    These, then, will use the ancient pattern and plan to build the New Jerusalem.

    Re-iteration

    So, although the primary covenant of this land is with the Nephites, everyone on the face of this land will be offered the opportunity to enter into it. But no one can enter into it until it is restored through the work of the Josephite restorer. What will be restored, then, is fully Nephite centric, creating a new Nephite society upon the land, as was had anciently. (Joseph Smith did not restore enough to re-create the Nephite society that existed anciently.) Acceptance of the new revelations and records can only be demonstrated by becoming a Nephite, just as baptism is viewed as evidence of having entered into a covenant to follow Christ. Rejection means you refuse to become a Nephite.

    What came through Joseph Smith was a mixture of some, but not all Nephite customs, along with a tailoring of the gospel to the Gentiles. In other words, what was revealed in Joseph’s revelations were things both Nephitish and also Gentilish, or more acceptable to the Gentiles, conforming to Gentile ways and customs. We didn’t get a strictly Jewish or Nephitish canon of revelations. Our commandments are custom tailored to fit Gentiles.

    But what is coming is what the Lord gave to the Nephites, in its fulness, which is completely foreign to the Gentiles, which is why many of them will reject it, for it requires that a Gentile shed his Gentile ways and become like unto the Israelites of old, adopting the customs of the ancients, which were given them by the Lord.

    In essence, what we have today is Nephite-lite, a diluted version of what the Nephites had. This is to prepare the Gentiles so that they may be able to accept the fulness easier. Later comes the fulness, in which most will choke and not be able to accept it.

  14. Uh, there’s a typo in there. It should say, “In verse 34 Moroni says,” not “In verse 24″…

  15. Anarchist

    This is a fascinating set of interpretations that you have provided. It is interesting that you are sharing them here instead of your blog. I am sure you will be blessed exceedingly for sharing them here since this is the primary place where all truth and controversy springs from.. LOL

    There are several things you have said that I would like to address, however, I don’t want to overwhelm people as you and I can both be somewhat long winded and can cover many issues at one time. I want to avoid confusing people and allow them to focus on each topic so I am going to address one topic at a time, per comment. If you don’t want to invest the time to keep responding I will understand, but some of your blessings may be cut off if you do.

    feel free to bail at any time.

    I disagree with your supposition that there will be “Josephite restorer, meaning a literal descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi, that was to bring about “much restoration.”, However, I think the proper interpretation of the primary passage you are getting that belief from will become plain as we visit some other issues.

    I want to run something past you to see if you can agree with me on it.

    Traditional Mormon theology teaches that the narrative in Isaiah 29 took place during Joseph’s ministry in the 1800’s. It has to do with Marin Harris visiting Charles Anthon. It is taught that those event that fulfills the prophetic events mentioned in Isaiah 29

    “And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.”

    I am going to challenge that teaching and suggest that the BofM actually provides an inspired, prophetic interpretation of what Isaiah 29 is actually talking about and it testifies that EVERYTHING that we associate with the Martin Harris and Charles Anthony actually takes place in the third watch, when the Marvelous Work is ushered in.

    In other words, the remarkable similarity of events that happened to Martin Harris and Charles Anthony was really a preliminary TYPE AND SHADOW of what is yet to take place.

    The literal fulfillment of the events listed in Isaiah 29 are all still in the future.

    We know this because 2nd Nephi explains to us that the prophetic narrative in Isaiah 29 does not even begin until “that day” when the inhabitants of “this land” “shall be visited of the Lord of Hosts, with thunder and with earrthquake, and with great nose, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire”.

    once this is understood, the context of the narrative become directed at the corrupt modern day church which is also spoken of in 2nd Nephi 28.

    This means that the three witnesses spoken of in 2nd Nephi 27 come forth in the third watch, not during Joseph’s time. (whether they are three entirely new witnesses or the return of Oliver Martin and David is a topic for another day).

    Contextually, this means that there are at least three different times the words of the record are brought forth. The first was the preparatory event that was a type and shadow. Then when the Marvelous Work opens up, another portion of the record will come forth… thirdly, the sealed portion that reals everything from the beginning to the end of the world will come forth.

    This means that the following passage is not talking about taking the words to a learned non believer in the LDS restoration, it is actually referring to taking the book to a learned, high profile Mormon. Ether a highly respected Mormon scholar or a General Authority who is expected to actually act like a prophet and seer and read the words.

    Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.
    16 And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God.
    17 And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.
    18 Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it.

    After the learned says he cannot read it

    20 Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee.

    Again, the statement “I am able to do my own work is a clear reference to a later restoration, not the one Joseph Smith was initially involved in.

    Continuing on-

    24 And again it shall come to pass that the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him:
    25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men—
    26 Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.

    27 And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay. But behold, I will show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works. For shall the work say of him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, he had no understanding?

    The servant that successfully reads the words then reads the above declaration that is clearly rebuking the modern apostate church, not the protestant churches.

    It is the Mormons that “draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men—

    It is the Mormon people that the Marvelous Work begins with

    Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder,”

    It is the Mormons who offer false wisdom

    for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.

    It is the leading councils of the Modern LDS Church that seeks to hide their counsel from the Lord and thinks they cannot be found out

    27 And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us?

    It is the sanctamonous leaders of the church that are watching for iniquity in others and cutting people off and making people an offender for a word.

    and all that watch for iniquity are cut off;
    32 And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.

    Finally “They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.”

    that is another great key that this is third watch narrative.

    This explains in vivid detail what is taking place when the light shines forth again among those that sit in darkness, ie the LDS

    28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
    29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
    30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Section 45:28-30

    All of this is congruent with the unconditional prophecy in section one that promises that “the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
    5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
    6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.”

    It is the gentiles that published the Book of Commandments that are commissioned to return and raise the voice of warning.

    “this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you..”

    Ok Anarchist.

    Can you agree that the narrative in Isaiah 29 is future and not past? If so, it is clearly the same Gentiles that laid the foundation of the great work that will return to finish it under the direction of the Father.

    If you disagree, bring forth your strong reasoning… and let the games begin!

  16. Ryan says:

    Ok, I’m getting my popcorn ready.

    Watcher,

    Why can’t the Josephite restorer be none other than Sidney Rigdon, a descendent of Joseph through Judah?

  17. Ryan says:

    Um yeah disregard that last comment.

    I’m pretty sure that can’t be the case unless the family tree I’m looking at has some serious grafting that took place. 🙂

  18. OWIW, it does not appear that you ever read the following post and all the comments on it:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/1-nephi-13-14-commentary-using-ctcs-view/

    If you had, you would have read this comment and had the answer to (most of) your question, already:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/1-nephi-13-14-commentary-using-ctcs-view/#comment-11076

    You might want to also read these comments:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/1-nephi-13-14-commentary-using-ctcs-view/#comment-12459

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/1-nephi-13-14-commentary-using-ctcs-view/#comment-16929

    So, after reading all of that, I will say that I’ve also written (somewhere on my blog, but I have no idea where and Justin is not around with his computer mind/memory to tell me where I wrote it) that there will be many people returning that will be involved in the great and marvelous work of restoring Israel to the lands of their inheritance and to the knowledge and covenants of their fathers. Where you and I differ in interpretation, I believe, is in your emphasis on the role certain former Gentile servants and disciples will have, while I take a more liberal view as to how the whole thing will unfold, in which I include many people, all the tribes of Israel and all of their records and prophecies (which we currently don’t have), which prophecies (written in those other records) must also be fulfilled.

    (The difference in our interpretations remind me of the difference between the interpretations of Anthony Larson and myself, over the plasma displays of the future. Whereas he interprets all as resulting from the appearance of one, single planet/comet, I see many planets appearing. Whereas you subscribe to a view which puts the disciples of the time of Joseph in chief place, fulfilling many or all of the prophecies of our scriptures, I see multiple prophets, seer, revelators and restorers returning, from many tribes, all playing important parts and fulfilling scriptures that we don’t currently have. What I’ve stated concerning the interpretation of Anthony Larson, namely that he takes a too narrow view because he is too focused on the scriptures given to the Gentiles, thinking that this is all the prophecy that needs to be fulfilled, also, I believe, applies to your interpretation. I think it is noble and commendable that you delve as deeply as you do, but without the view that all the tribes of Israel are as equally important in the winding up scenes, and that they all will be contributors, it is easy to miss the mark and end up misinterpreting the prophecies.)

    But you can say that I generally agree with you on what you have written, and that I have also more or less taken the same stance that you have about Isaiah 29 and then you can proceed to explain your theory that the Josephite restorer is not some Indian prophet but Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery or some other early disciple.

  19. I have toyed with that speculation in a previous post. However, I disagree that 2 Nephi 3:24 is referring to “a literal descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi”

    I believe that is a misinterpretation of what is being said.

    The whole focus of the chapter is about Moses anciently and the one like Moses in the latter days whose name is Joseph which is also the name of this father.

    The summation in verses 22-25 does not change topic, it reiterates that “Joseph the son of Joseph” is going to bring about much restoration which will be a blessing to the seed of Lehi’s son, Joseph. The narrative alludes to Joseph’s two part ministry in verse 11. First, during his first commission in the 2nd watch, he brings forth the word, during the LDS foundation movement. Secondly, during his second commission in the 3rd watch, he convinces God’s people of the word that had previously gone forth.

    Generally, the narrative in this chapter speaks of the final work of Joseph Smith, which brings God’s people out of hidden darkness and captivity (verse 5). The first part of Joseph’s work is not a work of power and miracles but of laying a foundation. Finally, verses 22-25 are reiterating that Joseph Smith’s second work which will bring forth much restoration. This is an obvious allusion to section 110 where in the keys of restoration were given to Joseph and Oliver.

    22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. [referring to father Joseph of Egypt

    23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book.

    24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, [mighty and strong… see Section 85 who is Joseph Smith, the one like Moses, named Joseph who is named after his Father] who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration [see Section 110:11 Moses gives Joseph Smith the keys of RESTORATION] unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren.

    25 And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi, and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father. Amen.

    Updates and clarification at 7:00 3/24

  20. “you can say that I generally agree with you on what you have written, and that I have also more or less taken the same stance that you have about Isaiah 29”

    Very good, I am glad we agree on that Anarchist. I also wrote an article on this years ago.. it is difficult for each of us to remember everything that has been blogged about.

    “and then you can proceed to explain your theory that the Josephite restorer is not some Indian prophet but Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery or some other early disciple.”

    Hold the phone. I have actually shown how I think the Josephite restorer verse should be interpreted, thanks to our popcorn chomping friend’s interjections, however before we continue dissecting that verse, we need to resolve why our agreement one this issue is so important.

    You have previously stated or alluded to the fact that the Marvelous Work is ushered in by descendents of the BofM people and more specifically you “Josephite restorer”

    “the But no one can enter into it until it is restored through the work of the Josephite restorer.”

    The problem with that is that the the content in 2 Nephi 27 that we have both agreed upon demonstrates that the same gentiles that ushered in the foundation work are the ones that return to usher in the final Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

    That is a critical point. Perhaps the most critical point of this discussion.

    I have never said that people from other tribes do not play important roles. I believe they do, but I am sticking with the scriptures that provide clear documentation.

    I think those that discount Joseph’s second commission and try to impose definitions on single passages of scripture that have no second witnesses to them for clarification are just as guilty of having tunnel vision.

    I am fine with descendents of Lehi’s Joseph playing an important role but I just don’t think the passage you are using to justify your belief holds any water.

    Can you agree that since we agree on Isaiah 29, that it is indeed the gentile servants of the second watch that are the primary servants that usher in the Marvelous Work and take the gospel to the descendents of Lehi’s son Joseph?

  21. I need to get my beauty sleep. We can continue this conversation tomorrow if you have still not repented.

  22. The summation in verses 22-25 does not change topic

    And what is the topic? It is Lehi applying Egypt-Joseph’s prophecy regarding the fruit of his (Egypt-Joseph’s) loins and a choice seer coming out of those same loins (Egypt-Joseph’s loins) to his (Lehi’s) own loin fruit (Joseph, son of Lehi, who I will refer to as Lehi-Joseph from now on.)

    And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed. For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph. Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day.

    Egypt-Joseph’s prophecy talks of the fruit of his loins, also a seer being raised up unto the fruit of his loins, also a seer being raised up out of the fruit of his loins, an expedient book, writings of the fruit of his loins and writings of the fruit of the loins of Judah, Moses, one like unto Moses, a seer like unto Egypt-Joseph, etc. Lehi quotes all of this and then applies it to a Nephite miracle worker to be raised up among his son, Joseph’s, seed.

    Now ,both Egypt-Joseph and Lehi use the word “among.”

    Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. (7)

    But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them. (11)

    Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (12)

    And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord. (13)

    And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. (24)

    Here is the meaning of the word “among” from the 1828 dictionary:

    1. In a general or primitive sense, mixed or mingled with; as tares among wheat.

    2. Conjoined or associated with, or making part of the number.

    Blessed art thou among women. Luke 1.

    3. Of the number; as, there is not one among a thousand, possessing the like qualities.

    So, when Lehi says, “And there shall rise up one mighty among them [Lehi-Joseph’s seed],” he is saying that this mighty man is either “mixed or mingled with” Lehi-Joseph’s seed, or that the mighty man is “conjoined or associated with, or making part of the number of” Lehi-Joseph’s seed. Either way, the meaning is the same, namely, that this Josephite restorer is accounted as of the fruit of the loins of Lehi-Joseph.

    Now, you are free to wrest the scriptures as you like and twist the meaning into whatever you like, but that doesn’t change what the word “among” means, nor the actual meaning of the passage. Joseph Smith does not fit the passage, for he was an Ephraimite, and this mighty man spoken of by Lehi will be a Manassehite, for Lehi was of the tribe of Manasseh, as were his sons.

    Lehi associates the ministry of the mighty man with both Moses and with Egypt-Joseph, for Moses worked mighty wonders, delivering the house of Israel and so will this man, and Egypt-Joseph saved the house of Israel and this man will save them by restoring them to the knowledge of their fathers, which will save them.

    The only part of the chapter that fits Joseph Smith’s ministry is verses 18-21:

    And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it.

    And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins. And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith.

    And they shall cry from the dust; yea, even repentance unto their brethren, even after many generations have gone by them. And it shall come to pass that their cry shall go, even according to the simpleness of their words.

    Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren who are the fruit of thy loins; and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith, unto the remembering of my covenant which I made unto thy fathers.

    But notice that it speaks of a seer being raised up unto, not out of the fruit of Egypt-Joseph’s loins. That matches Joseph Smith, since he was raised as a Gentile, not as an Israelite. The book mentioned in these verses also matches the description of the Book of Mormon. But the rest of the chapter, or I should say your interpretation of the rest of the chapter, is a supposition on your part, taking the “Joseph son of Joseph” part, applying it to Joseph Smith, and then forcing-fitting Joseph into every mention of a seer in the chapter, including the mention of a miracle worker at the end, even if it means bringing him back from the dead to fulfill the as yet unfulfilled parts. You also must do away with the meaning of the word “among” and invent a new definition. All of this is a wresting of the scriptures.

    Finally, verses 22-25 are reiterating that Joseph Smith’s second work which will bring forth much restoration. This is an obvious allusion to section 110 where in the keys of restoration were given to Joseph and Oliver.

    There is nothing obvious about it. This is merely another supposition on your part, by doing away with the meaning of the word “among” so that you get rid of the need of a Lehi-Josephite restorer, and then force-fit your new chosen seer Joseph Smith onto the passage.

    I have written about this same practice at length, some years ago. See:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/and-they-understood-me-not-for-they-supposed/

    The problem with that is that the the content in 2 Nephi 27 that we have both agreed upon demonstrates that the same gentiles that ushered in the foundation work are the ones that return to usher in the final Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

    It does no such thing. We agree that it speaks of future events, but it certainly does not identify who the men are that will fulfill this prophecy. You, on your own authority, are force-fitting Joseph and others into it, because of your belief that they will return and fulfill all these prophecies. But dual-fulfilled prophecy does not require the same people to fulfill the prophecy twice. In fact, shadow fulfillments usually are done with different people than the literal fulfillment.

    I have never said that people from other tribes do not play important roles. I believe they do, but I am sticking with the scriptures that provide clear documentation.

    The “clear documentation,” though, that you provide, is not as clear as you make it seem. Often, many of the things you provide as “evidence” is portrayed (by you) as being written in a cryptic code, having a cryptic meaning, which requires a key to decipher it, which key you say you possess. That’s not clearness, that’s cryptography. Many of the “evidences” you bring forth to support this or that view have simpler ways of understanding the passages. Occam’s razor does equally apply to scriptures, you know? But you are so invested in the cryptic meanings that you assign meanings to the text that are not plainly written there and present it as “evidence.”

    Now, my interpretation of Lehi’s prophecy as referring to a Nephite miracle worker does not deviate from what the text itself says in plain English, according to the rules and meaning of English words. My interpretation is plain, whereas yours is cryptic and it also deviates from the meaning of English words. Which is the preferable interpretation?

    I think those that discount Joseph’s second commission and try to impose definitions on single passages of scripture that have no second witnesses to them for clarification are just as guilty of having tunnel vision.

    First, I don’t discount that Joseph (and many others) are coming back. Secondly, the only one trying to impose a definition on the Lehi passage contrary to what it reads is you. Third, there is no second witness to your interpretation, because all the “witnesses” that you bring forth also don’t specify as to who the people are that are spoken of. So, none of that counts as a witness.

    Finally, to answer your question:

    Can you agree that since we agree on Isaiah 29, that it is indeed the gentile servants of the second watch that are the primary servants that usher in the Marvelous Work and take the gospel to the descendents of Lehi’s son Joseph?

    The whole “primary servants” line is an invention on your part. There is no place in the scriptures that state that this or that person, or these people, are the “primary servants” that do the bulk of the great and marvelous work. Instead we have multiple prophecies of work to be performed by many named individuals and also by many unnamed individuals, but unless a passage states that this unnamed individual is the same as that named individual, to equate one with another on your own authority is supposition. Now, if the Holy Ghost has revealed something to you concerning a passage, that’s different. But to say that this unnamed person prophesied here can only be that named person come back from the dead, is privately interpreting the scripture and mere conjecture.

  23. Anarchist

    I am sorry if my dry sense of humor has offended you and I am sorry if you honestly think I am wresting the scriptures.

    I think it is a natural tendency for all of us to interpret passages of scripture in favor of our world view and the bigger storyline that we each think we are seeing in the general narrative.

    Please don’t become emotional and angry, it is one thing for each of us to passionately defend what we think is the truth, it is another to become angry at each other and start accusing each other of “wresting the scriptures.”

    Thank you for going to great lengths to dissect 2 Nephi 3:23-24 and show how you are coming up with your interpretation. I realize there are lots of fundamentalist that agree with your interpretation as well.

    I simply disagree with it and don’t think it is supported anywhere else in the Book of Mormon. In short, I think you are making a very simple narrative extremely complex in your effort to make it conform to the narrative you want to believe, yet I don’t consider that to necessarily be wresting the scriptures… it is simply seeing them through the context that you assume to be true.

    IMO Lehi was simply telling his son Joseph about the prophecy given by Joseph of Egypt and assuring his son Joseph that his posterity would not all be destroyed and that they would eventually be blessed by the work of restoration that the seer, Joseph Smith would oversee.

    I believe Joseph Smith is referred to as Elijah the “restorer” because he holds the keys to the work of restoration and that he got the keys of restoration pertaining to the whole house of Israel from Moses.

    If your interpretation of the passage is correct, it seems odd to me that it is almost given as a footnote or afterthought following the earlier commentary in the chapter on Joseph Smith’s ministry.

    It is also odd that Joseph Smith’s role and calling as a restorer that is documented in several places, gets only a brief mention and then is overshadowed by some obscure person that only merits two verses in the Bofm.

    Very very strange.

    It seems to me that if the passage really is speaking about a completely different person than the seer spoken of in the first part of the narrative, and if he is of a different lineage, and if he does a work as important as doing “much restoration”, that would be HUGE news that would get some details.

    It would not be just be a two verse, “by the way, after all I told you about Joseph Smith, someone from your posterity will do much restoration…” wink wink.

    That just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Such news would warrant much more than a few verses, with no other passages in the entire Book of Mormon to back them up (from the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established)

    If such an important person with such a significant prophetic role existed, his story would be the major, reoccurring theme in the Book of Mormon. Yet the reoccurring theme actually has to do with the fact that the Gentiles will be the ones that are involved in the final great work that will benefit the seed of Lehi and the whole house of Israel.

    The reason I did not want to discuss the interpretation of 2 Nephi 3:23-24 until we have fully developed and established the fact that it is the Gentiles that bring forth the next portion of the Book of Mormon and begin the Marvelous Work, and usher in the dispensation of the fulness of times, is because if we create a bullet point listing of everything contained in those Book of Mormon passages having to do with the last work done by the Gentiles, they prove all three of your following claims to be wrong:

    Here are your claims that I must take issue with:

    1- You claim there will be a restorer from the seed of Joseph the son of Lehi and that he does much restoration instead of Joseph Smith: “Josephite restorer, meaning a literal descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi, that was to bring about “much restoration.”…..

    2- You claim the repentant Gentiles will be called Nephites: ” the Gentiles who repent and join these new Nephites, will be … called Nephites. As well as all the other people of the house of Israel that joins them. Everyone that joins these people will be called Nephites. ”

    3- You claim that the Gentiles don’t restore the fulness: “the scriptures do not say that the Gentiles will be the ones that restore the fulness and records, but that the fulness will first go to the Gentiles, be rejected, and then taken to the house of Israel (the remnant.)”

    The Book of Mormon claims repetitively that the Gentiles usher in the final work that they challenge the above claims that you have made.

    Okay, you have already agreed with me that 2nd Nephi 27 and Isaiah 29 speak of a future event wherein the Gentiles do a work of restoration just like the work of restoration done in Joseph Smith’s last ministry.

    (David Whitmer referred to this future work in an interview that I have provided in previous posts.)

    Now that you and I are in agreement on that, lets review the points covered in some of the passages in the Book of Mormon that testify that it is the Gentiles that usher in the last great work:

    2 Nephi 3
    Isaiah 29
    2 Nephi 22
    2 Nephi 27
    2 Nephi 30
    Mormon 7
    3rd Nephi 21
    3 Nephi 28
    Ether 4

    • Marvelous Work done among Gentiles, Seed of Lehi is nourished by and carried in the arms and on the shoulders of the Gentiles (3rd Nephi 22:8)
    • It is the Gentiles that take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the seed of Lehi in the Marvelous Work. The Gentiles RESTORE the Gospel to the seed of Lehi (2 Nephi 30:5)
    • The Gentiles RESTORE the seed of Lehi to the knowledge of their fathers (2 Nephi 30:5)
    • It is the Gentiles that COMMENCE God’s work among all nations ( 2 Nephi 30:8)
    • It is the work begun by the Gentiles that causes the great division among the people (2 Nephi 30..)
    • It is after the Gentiles become established as a free people in the 3rd watch, that they will take the gospel to the seed of Lehi and facilitate in God fulfilling the covenant with his people Israel (3rd Nephi 21:3-4)
    • The entire seed of Lehi is in a state of unbelief when the Gentiles bring them the gospel during the Marvelous Work (3rd Nephi 21:3-4)
    • It is the coming forth of the gospel from the Gentiles that enables the believing gentiles to repent and become adopted back into and numbered with the whole house of Israel (3rd Nephi 21:6)
    • In the day when the Father works his work, the marred servant, brings forth the words of Jesus Christ among the Gentiles first, not the seed of Lehi (3rd Nephi 21:9-11)
    • It is the Gentiles that assist the remnant of Jacob in building the New Jerusalem and in gathering in upon the face of the land upon their land of inheritance (3rd Nephi 21:23-29)
    • The Marvelous Work is wrouhgt by the Gentiles (3rd Nephi 28:32)
    • The seed of Lehi recieves the Bible from the Gentiles (who initially got it from the Jews) (Mormon 7:8)
    • The Book of Mormon only speaks of two covenants, not the four covenants that you have suggested. The “first covenant” is the lineage based covenant which applies to the seed of Jacob. the Second covenant is the Gospel covenant which is entered into by the baptism of water, fire and Holy Ghost (Mormon 7:10)
    • The sealed portion with the vision seen by the brother of Jared comes forth to the Gentiles first, after they repent of their iniquity. Then it goes to the house of Israel (ether 4)
    • Joseph Smith the Seer brings the posterity of Joseph unto the knowledge of the covenants that have been made with their Fathers and also brings forth Gods word and also convinces the of Gods word in the 3rd watch (2 Nephi 3:7,11)
    • Joseph Smith will confound all false doctrines and establish peace. (2 Nephi 3:12)
    • Joseph Smith does the work of restoring for the House of Israel 2 Nephi 3:13 ** this is the “much restoration” that verse 24 is alluding to !!!)
    • It is Joseph Smith that brings the Lords people out of hidden darkness and captivity unto freedom in the spirit of power (2 Nephi 3:5)

    As you can see, the book of Mormon establishes the fact that the Gentiles, led by the Seer and restorer, Joseph Smith, will oversee EVERY ASPECT OF RESTORATION that needs to take place. There is no work of restoration for an obscure descendent of Lehi’s son Joseph to do.

    The two verses you are using to create an entire theology out of is prefaced by “wherefore because of THIS COVENANT” referring to the covenant that Joseph Smith restores!

    Further, the work of “much restoration” referred to in verse 24 is simply referring to verse 13, referring to Joseph Smith’s stewardship of restoration.

    The gentiles don’t become Nephites. That claim is simply not supported anywhere. They take upon them the name of Christ. Even the Nephites that repent will take upon them the name of Christ.

    All three of the claims that you have made are refuted by the above passages of scripture from the Book of Mormon.

    Numerous others could be taken from modern revelation to further substantiate this.

    Please don’t be wroth.

    You are certainly entitled to your beliefs. I understand why you believe the way you do.

    Anyway, you and I are not going to change each others minds and I doubt there are many readers of this blog that really care to continue hearing you and I each beat a dead horse… so, I am going to get back to my pressing projects and quit spending so much time reiterating things I have been saying for six years.

  24. I only read your first sentence, so far:

    “I am sorry if my dry sense of humor has offended you and I am sorry if you honestly think I am wresting the scriptures.”

    and had a laugh at the irony. You say that you offended me but it seems that I have offended you. You called me to repentance, so I did the same, but I guess I came on too strong. I’ve got a thick skin and thought you did, too. Now it is my turn to say I’m sorry, for offending you. But I will have to come back later and read the rest of what you wrote. Hopefully it will be something interesting… Until later.

    (Oh, btw, you didn’t offend me. I got the humor in your remarks.)

  25. A few weeks ago I mentioned that I will be preoccupied for a month or two and will not be moderating comments or commenting very much. I have found it very difficult not to respond to comments since then, and yet I cannot find a way to turn off comments. I did, however, find a way to make all comments turn of on all posts within 24 hours of the post, which is what I have done.

    I hope to be back blogging within a few months.

    For those who are interested, the Anarchist has posted a very compelling quote from Oliver Cowdery and also pointed out that Parley Pratt had put a footnote in the Book of Mormon which has since been changed in more recent versions of the scriptures. Both of those support his interpretation of 3rd Nephi 23-24

    Those interested in seeing that evidence may view it here

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/lehis-josephite-prophecy/#comment-19057

    I still hold my view that I have presented, for the reasons presented, but I admit that it is pretty interesting that some of the early leaders of the church interpreted that passage of scripture the same way that the Anarchist interprets it. 🙂

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