Follow Up About the Claims Made by Elder Joseph Smith and Seventy Bob Moore at the Zarahemla Branch Testimony Meetings

November 1, 2017


There has been quite a bit of interest in the last post I did which provided links to the testimonies by the two Gentile witnesses that have now been given about the appearance of the Angel Moroni, the reception of the Gold Plates, the Interpreters, and the Sword of Laban.

I have been contacted by several readers of this blog and they have shared their initial opinions about these claims with me. At least two of them have personally contacted and spoken with Joseph Smith or his associate witness.

Since I did my last post, the number of views on those videos has significantly increased. It would interesting to know how much my readership and their friends that they shared the links with had to do with jump in views.

It has occurred to me that it might be a very interesting and helpful project to invite all readers of this blog who would like to share their initial reactions to these claims, to submit them and then I will post all of them in one blog post or a series of blog posts, for everyone to see.

So….. that is what I am doing.

If you have listened to the testimonies and associated claims and would like to share your thoughts, email me at

I will then catalogue or somehow present all of the responses for everyone to read.

I also plan on sharing my own in-depth analysis of the claims that have been made and the personalities making them, but I don’t want to show any bias until everyone has had the opportunity to state their case.

Clearly, if the claims made by these two brethren are true, then this is what many of us have been waiting for and the Marvelous Work has begun. Rejecting these testimonies would have severe consequences if they are true.

On the other hand, if the claims are not true, then a lot of people are going to go down a dark rabbit hole of deception. Those consequences would also be significant.

This should not be taken lightly.

I will wait a few days to accumulate any responses that people want to make. Then I will post them and also provide my own two cents worth of observations and conclusions.

As a group of believers who have been awaiting the emergence of the Marvelous Work and a Wonder that has been foretold in scripture, we are going to collectively weigh the claims of Elder Joseph Smith and Seventy Bob Moore in the balance to see if they are found wanting, or if they do in fact fit the prophecy template that has been presented in scripture.

Get out your scriptures and get on your knees.

If you have treasured up the word of God and taken the Holy Spirit as your Guide, you will not be deceived.


Did the Marvelous Work begin on April 6th 2007?

October 31, 2017

For nine years I have been documenting the apostasy of latter day Israel.

I have shown how and when the restored church became condemned and how and when it became rejected as a church with it’s dead.

I have shown that the true church that came out of the wilderness of darkness went back into the wilderness of darkness within a relatively short period time.

I have demonstrated from the scriptures and history of the church that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder spoken of by Isaiah and the Book of Mormon did NOT begin during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

I have shown that Joseph’s ministry was to lay the foundation for the future Marvelous Work that was to be a future event. One I believe will take place during our time.

I have tried to get people to dig deep into the scriptures and the true history of the church and to understand prophecy so that they would be able to discern between true prophets and false prophets claiming to be involved in the Marvelous Work.

During the past nine years there have been a few people rising up and claiming to be doing the Lord’s Marvelous Work.

I have just been informed of yet another movement making some pretty spectacular claims.

I am providing links to the videos of the two gentile witnesses of this new work who claim that they have personally held the gold plates, the sword of Laban and the interpreters.

I am presenting links to these videos as a noteworthy current event that relates to the prophetic times we are living in, regardless of whether the claims being made are true or false.

I am not endorsing nor challenging any of the claims being made. I am leaving that up to the discernment of my readership.

I am doing this because we have been admonished to prove all things and then hold fast to that which is true.

The second presentation moves much faster and has a Q & A, but both presentations are necessary to view in order to get the complete narrative and to get a feel for the personalities of the witnesses.

H. Verlan Andersen Warned about Secret Combinations and Secret Murders Entering into God’s Church

October 29, 2017

In my last post, I mentioned the reminiscences of my friend that had attended the lectures of a Black, FBI informant who spoke at an LDS ward in the 60’s.

Decades ago when she listened to the lecturer, she wrote down many of the key points for posterity. I shared portions of her notes in my last post. Sadly, she neglected to write down the name of the FBI informant.

Although I had no reason to question the accuracy of the testimony of my aged friend, I must admit that it was a little perplexing to not even be able to provide the name of the FBI informant or any documentation that the person actually existed.

I shared her testimony based on my belief in her personal integrity..

Thankfully I got an email following that post from a subscriber who spoke to a relative whose mother “.. took her to [the]  Julia Brown (The black infiltrating FBI informant) meeting in Boise in 1963 at Capital High School…she knew her name very well and remembered what was taught.”

Hot damn!

Now I have a name and a second witness about what was being said as this woman traveled around to communities in Utah and Idaho talking about the Communist agenda and the infiltration taking place in virtually all organizations including the US Government and the Mormon Church.

I did a little Google-ka-noodling and found a video of Julia Brown

It turns out that there is a wealth of information about Julia Brown and her story on the Internet.

I even found a reference to her in a footnote of one of Ezra Taft Benson’s talks which has been published in a book:

The article written by Ezra Taft Benson was titled, “Civil Rights: Tool of communist Deception

The footnote provided by Benson is as follows:

3. Manning Johnson, now deceased, spelled out this blueprint in his book, Color, Communism and Common Sense (Western Islands, Belmont, Mass.). Leonard Patterson, Mrs. Julia Brown and Mrs. Lolabelle Holmes are currently active on lecture tours carrying this unhappy truth about the Civil Rights movement to as many of the American people as they can reach.   (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 354).

It would appear as if Ezra Taft Benson considered Julia Brown to be a credible voice of warning.

President Benson Feared for His Life

I recently got an email from a subscriber asking me the following question:

“Do you ever wonder why Benson was not more vocal about these matters [secret combinations infiltrating the church] when he became President?”

This was my reply-

Did you watch the youtube that I added to the last post?
 President Benson did publicly warn the world in a conference talk that a secret combination was seeking to overthrow the freedom of all people. I admit that he was somewhat ambiguous as far as providing the specifics.
Nevertheless, he was scared to death of the infiltrators among the brethren.
Had it been during a time when the fullness was on the earth and if he had been a real prophet with fullness of priesthood, I am sure he would have been more specific and given a more detailed warning.
He would have boldly cleansed the church of the combination, or had his blood shed in the attempt. 
As it is, since he is just an inspired man trying to do the best that he can in an apostate church during a time of “hidden darkeness, and since the church has long since been delivered over to Satan, his warning was sufficient.

The Course Correction the Never Took Place

When Mrs Watcher and I met with Elder Andersen some three decades ago, we were a bit taken back by his passion and concern about the state of the nation and the church.

His observations about licensing were only a small part of what concerned him. He spent over an hour quoting statements from David O. MacKay and Ezra Taft Benson about the threat of communism, about the evils of the secular education that Latter day Saints were being brainwashed with and about the many false doctrines that were being taught in the church.

The following declaration by Ezra Taft Benson is one that few latter day saints take very seriously and it was one of the major themes found in the writings and lectures of H. Verlan Andersen.

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “. . . they have all gone astray save it a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Ne. 28:14).

Elder Andersen and President Benson were both convinced that the above passage in was referring to the latter day restored church. They both referenced the scathing rebukes of God’s people in 2nd Nephi 28 and Mormon 8 as being directed at the Latter day saints.

They were both concerned that modern Mormonism had gone astray because of false doctrines and the precepts of man.

That is largely what this blog is about.

I have documented the fact that the apostasy of the latter day restored church began way back during the early Kirtland Years and was followed by additional waves of apostasy that followed in Jackson County, Far West and Nauvoo.

They resulted in the Lord rejecting the latter day saints as a church with their dead. Following that, Brigham Young led a faction of the apostate saints to Utah under the delusion that they still had all of the priesthood keys that Joseph and the first elders had been given to restore New Testament Christianity to the earth.

Nevertheless, despite the darkened state of the apostate church, God has from time to time salted the church with highly inspired men who provided the church with a leavening and a voice of warning. The saints have had the opportunity for introspection and collective repentance. In theory, a course correction could have taken place in the modern church if the leadership and membership would have collectively repented.

The Fourteen Fundamentals in Trusting in the Arm of Flesh

I am not suggesting that President Benson was perfect or that he had a perfect understanding of the depth of apostasy that the church was in. President Benson taught his own share of false doctrines. His talk on the “Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet” when he was a member of the Twelve, was a doctrinal disaster.

It was a classic primer in modern day idolatry and putting trust in the arm of flesh.

Nevertheless, the remarkable thing about both Benson and Andersen is that despite being raised in a religious cult that had been programming them for years, they had the amazing ability and humility to see God’s warning of chastisement to the modern church in scripture.

The reason I am addressing the life and ministry of H. Verlan Anderson in these blog posts is because I believe that he was a truly inspired man of God who was offering a warning voice to a people who were sinking deeper and deeper into the dark abyss of apostasy.

He had been prepared by the Lord to follow up the warning voice of President Benson to give those that had ears to hear the opportunity to dig into the sobering prophetic passages in the Book of Mormon that identify the apostasy that we find ourselves in.

Technically, the church had the opportunity to get back on course.

Elder Andersen was a Watchman on the Tower

It seems to me that H. Verlan Andersen was being a watchman on the tower who was trying to warn the latter day saints that all was not well in Zion. Yet his message was silenced by other leading authorities in the church.

I don’t meant to suggest that Elder Andersen and President Benson were the only general authorities that had concerns about the apparent latter day apostasy of the church and the false teachings and infiltration of secular learning over the years. Here is an interesting observation from Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, recorded in his personal journal that he apparently neglected to share publicly.

“I attended sessions of meetings for the institute teachers, held in the assembly room on the fourth floor of he Church Office Building.

I cannot say that I was very greatly edified. Too much philosophy of the worldly nature does not seem to mix well with the fundamentals of the gospel.

In my opinion many of our teachers employed in the church school system have absorbed too much of the paganism of the world, and have accepted too readily the views of the uninspired educators without regard for the revealed word of the Lord.

What to do about it I do not know. It is a problem for the Presidency to consider.

It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I don’t know . But if we drift as far afield from the fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith?

It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Jesus Christ. Are we not traveling the same road?” (The Life of Joseph Fielding Smith 212. Deseret Book Co., 1972 )

As you can see, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith also had his concerns about false teachings being taught in the church.

Because of his concerns about people putting their trust in leaders of the church he made the following declaration:

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.

My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them.

Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.

“You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

“Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 3:203–4; also cited in Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed. [1966], p. 609.)

Wolves Among the Sheep

In my opinion, Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson are largely responsible for the current doctrinal direction and general state of the modern LDS Church. I believe they have neglected their responsibility to act as watchmen on the tower.

They are also responsible for preventing the nomination of President Benson to have H. Verlan Anderson ordained into the Quorum of the Twelve. It appears as if they were responsible for silencing his voice of warning during the last years of his life.

For this reason, I think it is important to review and scrutinize the lives and ministries of these two general authorities and to evaluate their own knowledge of the scriptures and their relationship with Jesus Christ through his Holy Word.

Deeply Searching the Scriptures

I realize that some people probably feel that I am simply being prideful, self righteous and judgmental of Hinckley, Monson, and other leaders of the church. Latter day saints have been conditioned to think that it is categorically evil to question and criticize the brethren.

I disagree.

Our salvation is at stake here.

Those men are being presented as prophets that hold the keys of salvation for our generation.

I believe we have an obligation to discern what is going on and what is being taught and what motivates our leaders.

We have a responsibility to scrutinize the words and deeds of these men, using the four standard works as our measuring yardstick, to see if they are true prophets. Frankly, when I weigh them in the balance, they are found wanting.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

I have been very critical of modern day general authorities in my blogs over the last nine years because I believe that Latter day General Authorities have led us astray.

Most General Authorities Do Not Search the Scriptures

I am also of the opinion that latter day General Authorities that deeply search the scriptures and take their seriously and literally are an anomaly.

Years ago I had occasion to enter the office of President Gordon B. Hinckley. As I gazed around the office I was struck with the fact that the Wall Street Journal was sitting on his desk but I could not see a set of scriptures anywhere.

It appears to me, based on the content of his conference talks, that the visual I had from viewing his office, pretty much tells the story with regard to how President Hinckley and most General Authorities spend and prioritize their time building up their kingdom outside of giving talks in General Conference, visiting stakes, and setting apart new Stake Presidents.

It would have been so refreshing to hear President Monson or President Hinckley give a talk of substance deeply rooted in the scriptures using quote after quote from the New Testament or Book of Mormon as they testify of Christ.

It would be wonderful to hear them truly give the warning voice about the current state of the church.

Can you remember either of them ever warning about the threat of communism and the false doctrines being taught in the church?

Have they ever given a passionate talk about the importance of redeeming Zion?

                                        Worldly Success I Requisite

Most of the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints have been called to their positions in the church because of worldly success and a bloodline that can be traced back to Nauvoo.

The highest quorums of the church are filled by highly educated men holding impressive degrees from the notable schools of Babylon. These quorums include world class surgeons, attorneys, high profile educators and successful business people who have all demonstrated their ability to rise to high levels in their professions.

They have demonstrated leadership skills and have excelled above their fellowmen. They have achieved the adoration of the world.

One of the most insidious practices that takes place during general conference talks is how they spend an inordinate amount of time quoting each other instead of quoting the words of Christ and his apostles from the Holy Scriptures. By so doing, they set themselves up for a light of the world.

This represents a form of priestcraft.

The following passage speaks of this phenomena-

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

Another passage that identifies the pride, priestcraft and secret abominiations in the latter day church is found in Mormon 8-

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

In my last blog, I pointed out how Elder Andersen corresponded with Elder Benson about the above passage in Mormon 8, asking him who the gentiles were that had polluted the holy church of God and asking him to let him know when he figured it out!

Anderson’s humble and haunting petition to Benson ended with ” when you get it figured out let me know” LOL

The truly remarkable thing about Elder Anderson that set them apart from many of his brethren is that he truly loved and searched the scriptures deeply while becoming proficient in his profession.

Very few if any of the other General Authorities seem to be rooted deeply in the Holy Word of God.

I would venture to guess that precious few of the members of the two leading quorums of the church have averaged more than ten minutes of casual reading in the scriptures per day. Furthermore, in my opinion, NONE of them have ever experienced the exhilaration and revelatory download of spending 12 solid hours in a given day doing an exhaustive keyword search in the scriptures to better understand a specific topic or doctrine.

Despite getting a law degree, Elder Andersen retained a love of the truth and the constitution and warned of the evils of licensing and the corruptions in the legal system.

Secret Combinations and Secret Murders In God’s Church

I suspect that one of the things that was so offensive to Elder Monson and Elder Hinckley is that Elder Andersen had the audacity to use scripture to point out that secret combinations and secret murders have a long standing tradition of infiltrating Gods church.

As pointed out in the previous post, Andersen used scripture to verify that God’s church can be and usually is overcome with secret combinations and secret murders. It must have been very offensive to his brethren when he would opine that active members of the Mormon church were simultaneously members of the Devils organization.

“Who considers it either impossible or unlikely that a person can belong to the Devil’s organization and Christ’s Church simultaneously?

The Nephite scriptures provide some interesting information. No one who believes that the Book of Mormon is the word of God doubts that the secret combinations described therein were built up by the devil.

The record is most explicit about this fact. But notice in the days of the reign of the judges among the Nephites, that when this secret society came among them, they seduced even the more part of the righteous to join them. (Hel. 6:38)

38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations)

Then in that period of time immediately preceding the terrible destruction which almost obliterated the Nephite nation, the very people who formed the secret combination which was largely instrumental in killing the prophets and bringing about this awful disaster, included, almost all the lawyers and the high priests. (3 Ne. 6:25)

If the more part of the righteous and almost all the lawyers and the high priests can be deceived, how can anyone feel safe?” (Personal notes: Can one belong to the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil at the same time? 1970)


The Lord warned the saints in 1829 that if they hardened their hearts, he would “deliver them over to Satan”.

The thought that secret combinations and secret murders could ever enter into God’s church is beyond the comprehension of most latter day saints, yet there is a rich history of the phenomena in scripture as pointed out by Elder Anderson. Furthermore, the modern church is not without numerous questionable circumstances relating to the deaths of the presidents of the church.

We can start with the account of Joseph Smith’s death. We know that the masonic conspiracy behind the martyrdom is well documented, but few latter day saints have considered the fact that there were masons on the inside as well as on the outside of the jail. Some day the full truth will come out about what really happened during those last hours of Joseph’s life.

I have also blogged about the suspicious circumstances behind the death of Brigham Young and the fact that he was probably poisoned.

I could name at least three other presidents of the modern church who had questionable circumstances behind their deaths.

Why Were the Saints Kicked out of Zion?

The fellow that contacted me about the post I did on H Verlan Andersen and prompted my last post, has contacted me again with some very thought provoking information.

He appears to be the gift that just keeps on giving.

He has loaned me a copy of “Teachings of H.Verlan Andersen and Shirley H. Andersen”

He also provided a quote from WW Phelps from the seven volume history of the church that simply blew my mind.

I suppose I have read it before years ago, but I did not have the necessary context to realize just how significant it is, and the fact that it provides a compelling reason to believe that one of the reasons the saints got kicked out of Zion is because of secret murders that had been committed.

Here is my response to him:

It is interesting that you quoted the following from the letter of WW Phelps written to the Saints in Zion in 1833

“I know it was right that we should be driven out of the land of Zion, that the rebellious might be sent away. But, Brethren, and, if the Lord will, I should like to know what the honest and heart shall do?… If, from what has been done in Zion, we, or the most of us, have got to be persecuted from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, we want to know it; for there are those among us that would rather earn eternal life on such conditions than lose it; but we hope for better things and shall wait patiently for the word of the Lord. Our people fare very well, and when they are discrete, little or no persecution is felt.

Last night when Mrs  Watcher was checking one of the references that Andersen provided for Benson in the letter he wrote to him, (Section 63, a revelation given to the saints in Zion 1831 ) she noticed the following warning given to the saints in Zion from the Lord. Notice the similarity to the wording to what Phelps says above

27 Wherefore, I the Lord will that you should purchase the lands, that you may have advantage of the world, that you may have claim on the world, that they may not be stirred up unto anger.

28 For Satan putteth it into their hearts to anger against you, and to the shedding of blood.

29 Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood, otherwise there is none inheritance for you.

30 And if by purchase, behold you are blessed;

31 And if by blood, as you are forbidden to shed blood, lo, your enemies are upon you, and ye shall be scourged from city to city, and from synagogue to synagogue, and but few shall stand to receive an inheritance.


It appears that the above revelation given to the saints in Zion in 1831 provides the context for why Phelps was suggesting in 1833,  that the saints must be scourged from city to city and from synagogue to synagogue.

According to the above revelation, the saints would be scourged from city to city IF THEY SHED THE BLOOD OF THE ENEMY!

Apparently, some blood was secretly shed by the saints in Zion if we take a literal assessment of the dots that need to be connected.

One of the passages quoted by Andersen from the Book of Mormon notes that the more righteous part of the Nephites were “seduced” to believe in works of darkness and “secret murders”. This is consistent with those passages.

Section 101 acknowledges that the Saints were cast out of Zion because of their TRANSGRESSIONS which included jarring’s (disputes) and contentions

[.] CONTENTION, n. [L. See Contend.] [.] 1. Strife; struggle; a violent effort to obtain something, or to resist a person, claim or injury; contest; quarrel. [.] [.] Multitudes lost their lives in a tumult raised by contention among the partizans

Interestingly, in Mormon 8, a few passages before Moroni identifies the saints of the restoration as those believing gentiles who polluted the Holy Church of God, in verse 31, he saw in vision that there would be “murders and robbing and lying, and deceivings  and whordoms and all manner of abominations” among those same people that believe in God. They justify their actions by saying “God will uphold such at the last day”.

During the Far West period, the secret order of the Danites was formed by several of the high priests of the Church. This secret order entered into blood oaths to avenge the latter day saints.

When the saints finally got to Nauvoo, the Lord acknowledges the abominations still being practiced among them at that time

48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord. (Doctrine and Covenants 124:48)

Interestingly, the Lord had previously noted that there were abominations in the church-

2 Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world.

3 And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you.

4 Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name.

5 But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life.

6 But wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment.

7 Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed;

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

In the prophecy given by Christ in 3 Nephi 16, about the gentiles of the LDS restoration rejecting the fullness of the gospel, Christ notes that “murders” and “secret abominations” are committed among the latter day saints-

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

As hard as it is to believe that the believing saints of God could be seduced into secret combinations and to commit secret murders, it is actually a reoccurring pattern that shows up in scripture.

This very thing happened among Gods people during the time of the Jaredites as well as during the time of the Nephites and Lamanites. :

The following passages in Alma 37 speak about the work of darkness among God’s people anciently and how they were involved in secret murders and abominations.

22 For behold, the Lord saw that his people began to work in darkness, yea, work secret murders and abominations; therefore the Lord said, if they did not repent they should be destroyed from off the face of the earth.


23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

In 3rd Nephi, Christ informs us that in the end times just before Zion is established, God will need to destroy the secret combinations and the secret murders of those that fight against Zion.

Silencing God’s Messengers

Many years ago I heard through the grapevine that Elder Andersen had been told by Elder Monson and Hinckley that there were four things he was no longer allowed to publicly speak about. I don’t remember the exact list, however, I believe the list included the topics of Communism, secret combinations and the constitution.

I have been informed that following the death of Elder Andersen, representatives of the quorum of the Twelve visited with Elder Andersens son, Hans and asked him to not publish any of his fathers remarkable books such as : (1) The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil. (2) Many are Called but Few are Chosen. (3) Moral Basis of a Free Society. (4) The Proper and Improper Role of Government. (5) Book of Mormon and the Constitution. (6) Teachings.. .

This is a travesty.

Now that I have in my possession a rare book that includes many of the personal notes of H. Verlan Andersen, I plan on sharing pertinent snippets from it in future posts that will be edifying to the readership of this blog.

Truth will prevail.

Remember, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is true, even if the restored church has temporarily fled back into the wilderness of darkness.


A Prophecy from H. Verlan Andersen?

October 23, 2017

Shortly after I published my last post about our meeting with H Verlan Andersen and how a signature is used to put people into bondage, I got the following email from a subscriber.

Watcher, we have corresponded about H. Verlan Andersen in the past but somehow I didn’t catch at that time you had visited with him prior to his death.

You probably already know but I thought I would point out his prophecy in the book Hans Anderson compiled of his father’s writings to his family…

This person has access to the book containing the personal writings of Elder Andersen because he has close connections to his son Hans. Below is a copy out of the book that he sent me:

andersen prophecy

The church will fail if it does not cleanse the government?


What a prediction!

I had never seen the above quote before and was curious to know if it had been published on the Internet. I was unable to find it doing a keyword search so I assume that this family book has lots of very interesting and revealing information in it that has not been widely published. The subscriber has offered to let me peruse the book which I look forward to doing.

As I pondered the above declaration and prediction that Brother Andersen had made in his personal notes, I wondered which scriptures would back up such a prediction.

I believe there are many.

The one that came to mind first is this prophecy in Section 103 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.

6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.

7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

As you can see, in February of 1834 the Lord promised that from that hour, the saints would

either hearken to the voice of the Lord and prevail against their enemies until all of the kingdoms of the world had been subdued..


..they would fail to hearken to the voice of the Lord and be overcome by the kingdoms of the world.

In retrospect, which part of the conditional bifurcated prophecy do you think has come to pass?

Have the saints of the restored gospel prevailed over and subdued the kingdoms of the world or have the kingdoms of the world overcome and subdued the saints?

Section 103 was given when the fullness of the Gospel was on the earth and the saints were attempting to gather to and redeem Zion resulting in their ability to live by the laws of God instead of the corrupt laws of man.

Sadly, the fullness of the gospel was rejected by the saints shortly after this prophecy was given. The saints in Zion had to flee, and the Lord pronounced the leaders and members of the church to be under condemnation.

The context in the narrative in Section 103 bounces back and forth between the second and third watches, giving several hints as to which of the two prophetic narratives would take place.

In the opening statements, before the conditional promises were even given, the outcome was revealed when the Lord declared that-

“those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement, because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.”

The latter part of the Section provides an unconditional prophecy about the return of Joseph Smith to lead the saints out of bondage with a stretched out arm.

Does that sound like the saints were going to prevail over the kingdoms of the world at that time?

Nobody with the spirit of discernment would argue which of the two above prophetic outcomes have taken place.

The restored church did NOT begin prevailing over and subduing the kingdoms of the world at that time.

The prophecy in the Book of Daniel about the stone rolling forth to crush the kingdoms of the world would not be taking place at that time. It would be a time in the future when that prophecy would be fulfilled.

The kingdoms of the world have clearly prevailed against the saints as was foretold anciently in the Book of Daniel

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The book of Daniel informs us that the “horn” would make war with the latter day saints and prevail against them UNTIL the Ancient of days comes.

The saints will not possess the kingdom UNTIL the ancient of days returns.

Has the Ancient of days returned?


You can read about the specific events associated with the return of the ancient of Days in ancient and modern scripture. They have not taken place.

That means the Ancient of days returns in the future and that the kingdoms of the world will prevail against the saints UNTIL the Ancient of days returns. It also means that the “saints” do not yet possess the keys of the kingdom that they claim to possess.

Clearly, we are nearing the end of the “little season of chastisement” that was foretold of in the beginning passages in Section 103.

The saints have been chastised now for four generations and they appear to be much further away from gathering to and redeeming and keeping the laws of Zion than they were back in 1834.

Clearly, the observation and prediction of Elder Andersen is congruent with and verified by the prophecy in section 103.

It is impossible to live the laws of God while living the contrary laws of Satan’s kingdom. This is why the Lord put such a great emphasis on redeeming Zion so that God’s law could be lived by the saints.

In Section 38 the Lord warned the saints that those in the secret chambers were conspiring to destroy the church and that the only thing that could save the saints would be for them to flee to Kirtland where they would get the LAW and POWER FROM ON HIGH.

In Kirtland the LAW was received as documented in section 42 and at the special conference at the Morley Farm the Melchizedek POWER FROM ON HIGH was given.

The question is, were the saints valiant in living the law which required celestial marital monogamy, living the law of consecration, and the establishment of Zion?

Did the saints retain the priesthood power received at the Morley Farm or was it taken from them as documented in Section 124?

Elder Andersen was exactly right about the fact that the restored church could not prevent the corruption of the saints as long as the saints were going to submit themselves to the laws of the Government and participate in the corruption of Babylon.

As previously documented many times on this blog, I believe the restored church became corrupted during Joseph Smith’s ministry.

Given the fact that the saints failed to establish Zion, Andersen was simply observing that the only other solution was to “cleanse the government” which was mandating and maintaining corrupt laws that were contrary to God’s laws.

How in the world do you cleanse the government without a physical uprising?

What was Elder Andersen advocating?

Pretty radical don’t you think?

But what about the rest of Elder Andersen’s prediction”?

Will it be our fate to experience what took place among the Nephites and Lamanites just prior to Christ’s return?

Those wondering what is taking place right now, prior to the light shining forth would do well to study what was happening in the church of Christ among the Nephites and Lamanites just prior to Christ’s visit in 3rd Nephi.

In 1968 Elder Andersen posed the following observations and questions to Ezra Taft Benson in a letter:

I am rather firmly convinced that the great deception being practiced upon LDS today largely comes from our socialized educational system. Satan’s doctrines are being boldly taught to our children and we are failing in our duty to set them straight.

I have read Moroni’s statement in Mormon, Chapter Eight wherein he states every Church has become corrupted and where he says that we Gentiles have polluted the holy church of God. (verses 36, 38) I wonder if he is speaking of our restored Church. What do you think? (Compare this with 2 Ne. 28:9-14.)

Then there is reference to a great division which will take place among the people. (2 Ne. 20:10, compare D&C 63:54) When you get these matters figured out let me know.…(Letter to Ezra Taft Benson, 4/20/1968)

That correspondence between Elder Andersen and Elder Benson took place while Benson was a mid-level apostle and BEFORE Andersen was called to be a general authority.

It is really quite touching to see how they were searching the word of God and posing touch questions about disturbing passages of scripture.

Is it the gentiles of the restored church that had polluted the holy church of God?

What a sobering question for Elder Andersen to ask Elder Benson.

Of course those of us that have been searching the scriptures in conjunction with the true history of the church know what the answer to the sobering question is.

The saints of the restored church during Joseph Smith’s ministry were the believing Gentiles that polluted the holy church of God.

Obviously, Benson and Andersen were viewing the scriptures through the lens of their own paradigm and assuming that the apostasy was still in the process of taking place.

President Ezra Taft Benson and H. Verlan Andersen were very close friends and shared their gospel insights and concerns with each other. They agreed with each other that the LDS church was in a phase of apostasy.

According to the person that sent me the email,  who has close ties with the Andersen family-

H Verlan Anderson was presented by President Benson to be a member of the quorum of the 12… His rejection was fueled by Hinckley and others..

He did not specify when Benson presented Andersen to the quorum nor did he indicated what position Benson held at the time the recommendation was made.

Anderson wanted to warn the saints about the evils of secular education and how it was destroying the minds of the saints. Sadly, the Hinckley-Monson era would proclaim what a wonderful tradition of education the saints have.

All is well in Zion !

Here is another snippet from Andersen’s personal files pertaining to his prophetic view of the future:

One of the more frightening things related in the Book of Mormon concerning the destruction of the Nephite government by the secret combinations is that Satan had such a strong hold upon men that had been high priests in the Church, that they joined in the destruction of government.

Notice how angry these former high priests became at the testimony of those who mentioned their sins. (3 Ne. 6:21-30) It also mentions the lawyers and judges but I suppose that is only to be expected because it was their positions and craft that was being threatened. They put these prophets to death secretly the record says.

Nephi prophesies that Satan will stir the people up to anger against that which is good in our day. (2 Ne. 28:20) Also Moroni indicates that the blood of the saints will be shed in our day by these secret combinations. (Ether 8:22)

I am rather firmly convinced that the great deception being practiced upon LDS today largely comes from our socialized educational system. Satan’s doctrines are being boldly taught to our children and we are failing in our duty to set them straight

Andersen points out in his personal files that Zion and Babylon cannot co-exist and that during Book of Mormon times “almost all” of the high priests and lawyers in God’s church became deceived

Who considers it either impossible or unlikely that a person can belong to the Devil’s organization and Christ’s Church simultaneously?

The Nephite scriptures provide some interesting information. No one who believes that the Book of Mormon is the word of God doubts that the secret combinations described therein were built up by the devil.

The record is most explicit about this fact. But notice in the days of the reign of the judges among the Nephites, that when this secret society came among them, they seduced even the more part of the righteous to join them. (Hel. 6:38

38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations)

Then in that period of time immediately preceding the terrible destruction which almost obliterated the Nephite nation, the very people who formed the secret combination which was largely instrumental in killing the prophets and bringing about this awful disaster, included, almost all the lawyers and the high priests. (3 Ne. 6:25)

If the more part of the righteous and almost all the lawyers and the high priests can be deceived, how can anyone feel safe? (Personal notes: Can one belong to the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil at the same time? 1970)

It is no wonder that people like Hinckley and Monson opposed President Benson’s apostolic recommendation of H. Verlan Andersen.

However I want to pose a question about the callings of Monson and Hinckley.

Were they among the humble followers of Christ that became elevated into the hierarchy of the church and eventually became deceived or were that plants by a secret combination?

Years ago a close friend of mine (who is in her 90’s now) shared with me an experience that she had back in the sixties.

She had been invited by friends to attend a lecture by a black lady being held at an LDS stake house in Kaysville Utah. This lady was not a member of the LDS Church.

The speaker was a lady who “had been an undercover agent for the F.B.I.” who had “infiltrated the Communist Party“.

This was during the days of the “cold war” when people considered communism to be a real threat to our national security.

Having her assignment and having testified in court to what she had discovered; she was free to disclose what she knew.. if she dared to do so

Although she did not feel safe and feared for her life , feeling that they would retaliate because of her testimony against them and for spying for our government while working for the communists and disclosing information she received in their employ

She felt compelled to reveal what she had learned to the American people .

She chose smaller Christian groups and community meetings because she realized that larger meetings would draw too much attention.”

“she was very personable and sincere, very believable and likeable. She told us many things about the Communist Party and the activities and effects of Communism in our own country. She gave examples of how the communists worked and explained how much their power was evident in our different organizations and government. She showed us the insidious manner in which they worked and undermined our national beliefs and goals.”

According to the recollection of my friend, the lecturer claimed that the Communists were planning to infiltrate the US government with their own people.

I am going to now deviate from the testimony of my friend for a moment to share the testimony of Tom Fife, an American Entrepreneur who claims that Obama was a plant that is a communist infiltrator. His testimony seems to support the long range plans of the communist party that the F.B.I. lecturer shared:

“During the period of roughly February 1992 to mid-1994, I was making frequent trips to Moscow in the process of starting a software development, joint-venture company with some people from the Russian scientific community.

One of the men in charge on the Russian side was named V. M.; he had a wife named T.M. V. was a levelheaded scientist, while his wife was rather deeply committed to the losing communist cause.

Early in 1992, the American half of our venture was invited to V. & T.’s Moscow flat as we were about to return to the States. As the evening wore on, T. developed a decidedly rough anti-American edge—one her husband tried to quietly rein in.

The bottom line of the tirade she started against the United States went something like this:

 “You Americans always like to think that you have the perfect government and your people are always so perfect. Well then, why haven’t you had a woman president by now? You had a chance to vote for a woman vice president and you didn’t do it.”

The general response went along the lines that you don’t vote for someone just because of their sex. Besides, you don’t vote for vice president, but the president and vice president as a ticket.

“Well, I think you are going to be surprised when you get a black president very soon,” she said. The consensus we expressed was that we didn’t think there was anything innately barring that. The right person at the
right time and sure, America would try to vote for the right person, be he or she, black or not.

“What if I told you that you will have a black president very soon and he will be a communist?” she said. “Well, you will; and he will be a communist.”

One of us asked, “It sounds like you know something we don’t know.”

“Yes, it is true,” she replied. “This is not some idle talk. He is already born, and he is educated and being groomed to be president right now. You will be impressed to know that he has gone to the best schools of presidents. He is what you call ‘Ivy League.’ You don’t believe me, but he is real and I even know his name. His name is Barack. His mother is white and American and his father is black from Africa. That’s right, a chocolate baby! And he’s going to be president.”

She became more and more smug as she presented her stream of detailed knowledge and predictions so matter-of-factly—as though all were foregone conclusions.

“It’s all been thought out. His father is not an American black, so he won’t have that social slave stigma. He is intelligent and he is half white and has been raised from the cradle to be an atheist and a communist. He’s gone to the finest schools. He is being guided every step of the way and he will be irresistible to America.”

She was obviously happy that the communists were doing this and that it would somehow be a thumbing of their collective noses at America: They would give us a black president and he’d be a communist to boot. She made it obvious that she thought that this was going to breathe new life into world communism. She always asserted that communism was far from dead. She was full of details about him that she was eager to relate.

She rattled off a complete litany. He was from  Hawaii. He went to school in California. He lived in Chicago. He was soon to be elected to the legislature. “Have no doubt: he is one of us, a Soviet.”

Since I had dabbled in languages, I knew a smattering of Arabic. I commented: “If I remember correctly, ‘Barack’ comes from the Arabic word for ‘blessing.’ That seems to be an odd name for an American.” She
replied quickly, “Yes. It is ‘African,’’’ she insisted, “and he will be a blessing for world communism. We will regain our strength and become the No. 1 power in the world.”

She said something to the effect that America was at the same time the great hope and the great obstacle for communism. America would have to be converted to communism, and Barack was going to pave the way.

So, what does this conversation from 1992 prove? Well, it’s definitely anecdotal. It doesn’t prove that Obama has had Soviet communist training nor that he was groomed to be the first black American president, but it does show one thing that I think is important. It shows that Soviet Russian communists knew of Barack from a very early date. It also shows that they truly believed among themselves that he was raised and groomed communist to pave the way for their future.

This report on Barack came personally to me from one of them long before America knew he existed. Although I had never before heard of him, at the time of this conversation Obama was 30-plus years old and was obviously tested enough that he was their anticipated rising star. Ref

 I have no idea if the above testimony is true, however, it seems to be consistent with the motives and insidious plans of the Communist Party according to the FBI lecturer and the profile in the above testimony fits Obama even though he initially presented himself to be a Christian.

Now, for the most interesting and provocative recollection of my friend’s experience when she attended the lecture of the FBI agent:

“The fact that stood out in my memory with the greatest impact was when she told us that she had been in a meeting where people had been chosen to infiltrate our L.D.S. Church.

She said some were families and the young were chosen to grow up in the church so that no one would suspect.

Others were to become converts and others she claimed were already in the church and would facilitate others speedy ascent [into the hierarchy].

She said that there were six which she could identify right now as being in that meeting that were sent on their “mission” that she had seem some in the Utah newspapers since she arrived. There are others but I can only point out six at this time”.

She wouldn’t tell us who , as she feared for her life, but she urged us to consider what was said and what was done [by these men in their callings] and discover for our selves who they were”

Again, there is no way to verify the truthfulness of whether this lecture really took place. Nevertheless, I have known this lady for over 30 years  and do not believe she would conjure up a story like this. She is an active member of the church.

As I have pondered the above testimony about key people chosen at a very young age to ascend into leadership positions in the church, I am reminded of the unusual publicity received by one of the youngest and most dynamic Bishops in the church.

A lady who was excommunicated when she accused this young Bishop of sexually abusing her, claimed that when she rebuffed him and threatened to bring charges against him, he exclaimed-

“Don’t you know, I am going to be the Prophet some day!”

What a bizarre statement of the accuser to make up!

What a bizarre claim for a young Bishop to make!

Who would possibly know they were going to be the prophet someday?

Who would be power hungry and corrupt enough to use that knowledge to silence someone they were bullying?

Is it really possible that conspirators have infiltrated the church?

I am also reminded of a president of the church that was accused by multiple sources of indecent acts that resulted in one of the most exhaustive protests to ever take place at Temple Square, only to be blocked by the mainstream media.

I am also reminded of the meteoric rise of an obscure member into the counsel of the Twelve whose biography states that he “worked in Washington DC, first for the US government and then as an assistant to Senator Wallace F. Bennett“, conveniently neglecting to specify that his employment for the US Government was with the C.I.A. .

Why has an effort been made to hide the fact that he worked for the Jesuit controlled CIA?

In my opinion, H. Verlan Andersen was one of the most inspired men of his generation. Those that prevented him from being ordained into the quorum of the Twelve did so, in my opinion, because they were enemies of truth. Andersen was a threat to their worldview and objectives.

Andersen boldly spoke the truth about the latter day apostasy and the secret combination that, according to president Benson, is increasing its evil influence over the entire world:

“Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing.

A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world.”

I am ending this post with one of my favorite quotes from H. Verlan Andersen who I consider to be a Godly and inspired man:

“Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, no people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations.

Time after time the Lord has established his church among a group who have lived his commandments for a few years and then fallen away thus bringing upon themselves his judgments.

This cycle of human folly which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own” apostasy is certain and the only question about it is how long it will take.”


BTW here is an interesting story related to the secret combinations that have entered into the church

How Your Signature Relates to the Bondage You are Currently In

October 21, 2017

Many years ago Mrs. Watcher and I met with H. Verlan Andersen.

Photograph of H. Verlan Andersen

Brother Andersen was a prolific LDS author who had served as a general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and a professor at Brigham Young University (BYU).

Andersen was called to the LDS Church’s First Quorum of the Seventy in April 1986. On April 1, 1989 he was transferred to the newly created Second Quorum of the Seventy. On October 5, 1991, he was released from his service as a general authority. He died of cancer on July 16, 1992.

He passed away shortly after Mrs. Watcher and I met with him.

We requested this meeting with him because we had read his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil and were really impressed with it.

great and abom

In the Book, he postulates that GOVERNMENTS are the root of all evil in society and that they represent the great and abominable church of the Devil that is mentioned in the scriptures.

It would take us several more years to connect the dots and realize that the Crown and the Vatican and more specifically the Jesuits represent the secret order behind all other secret orders and that they secretly control virtually all of the governments of the world. Hence, what Andersen was saying about the great and abominable church of the Devil being government, was in fact, consistent with the obvious references to the Catholic Church being the great and abominable church of the Devil in the Book of Mormon.

After reading the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, we could not believe that such an enlightened man could serve in high places in the church and still be unaware of the obvious problems in the church and we wanted to ask him first hand, if he was aware of the apostate condition of the Church.

Our goal was to spend a few minutes of chit chat with him and get to know him a little and then we were going to pop the great question, regarding the current status of the church and whether or not he felt that it had left the strait and narrow path.

However the conversation took quite a different turn than we expected. He immediately went into a diatribe about the evils of government and the unconstitutionality of LICENSING. His diatribe lasted for about two hours.

In his pontification he claimed that every kind of license that Government requires is an unconstitutional scam. Building licenses, drivers licenses, marriage licenses, business licenses, you name it. They are all a big, unconstitutional scam that robs us of our rights and our money. They give government way too much money, power and control over the lives of God’s people.

The ultimate result is BONDAGE.

We all ready have a God given right to own property, build structures on it, travel, get married, and participate in commerce without the permission and requirements of government.

No license is required.

Prophecy informs us that God’s servants will return and break all of the BONDS that we have been coerced to enter into and that God’s mighty and strong servant will lead God’s people out of bondage.

The amazing thing about our day in age is that most people have no clue that they are even in bondage. They have grown up in a corrupt system and they just assume that all of their God-given privileges that were originally protected by the constitution must actually be granted and tightly controlled by government.

The following video addresses much of what Brother Andersen told us.

I personally do not agree that people should be trying to get out of the SYSTEM and trying to get out of the contracts they have been coerced into with corrupt local state and federal governments.

I think the servants will take care of that.

Nevertheless, the first part of the video is very informative about how the acquisition of your signature by government has played a large role in putting you in the bondage that you are in.

The second video simply demonstrates how corrupt the Jesuit controlled court system and the BAR is.

If you will do an in-depth search on the original court system of our country, you will find out that in the early years of this nation’s independence from England, the scoundrels that were members of the BAR were not allowed to practice law or run for public office because they hold titles of nobility and have an allegiance to foreign powers. Most attorneys don’t even understand how evil, unjust, and unconstitutional their public stewardship is.

Originally, all citizens were encouraged to study and understand the law for themselves. It is only after the process of time that this corrupt system has encompassed us all around.



There is currently a false prophet (who is also a member of the corrupt Jesuit controlled BAR) who is praising the Jesuits as a positive force that grew out of the catholic church in response to the protestant reformation.

It is incomprehensible to me that anyone could be so naïve and depraved in their understanding of history and prophecy.

One has to seriously wonder if in fact that man is in fact a Jesuit infiltrator himself who is trying to maintain the secret agenda of the Jesuit combination!

Do You Believe Joseph Smith was a Fallen Prophet?

October 8, 2017

A longtime reader of this blog got an email from an acquaintance asking him if he believes that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet.

The content of the email is as follows:


We have never discussed your position regarding Joseph Smith but I’m told you believe him to be a fallen prophet.

Would you be willing to email me about your perspective regarding JS and how he fell as a prophet, assuming I have been informed correctly?

I’m sure your time is very valuable so as an alternative would you mind sharing any links you believe would do your position justice that I could investigate on my own.

Either way, I appreciate you considering my request.

Thank you,


Here is the response that was provided

[Editorial Note: I have taken the liberty of making a few modifications and additions for further clarification]


Great to hear from you. 
Hope all is going well for you and your family.
In answer to your question, I believe that Joseph Smith is one of the greatest prophets that has ever lived and that he is getting ready to return and fulfill all of the ancient prophecies about him, as well as all of the unconditional prophecies about him contained in modern revelation

I think the term “fallen prophet” is a very confusing term.

I kind of wish Joseph Smith would have never introduced that term because people assume that it implies that a true prophet falls from grace and never returns into a state of grace.

I am not convinced that is what the term refers to.

I am aware of several ancient prophets that sinned, but I am not convinced any of them became unredeemable and could not be restored to a state of grace.

Countless prophecies reveal that Joseph Smith would stumble and then recover. One of them is in Isaiah 49. In that Davidic Lamentation we are informed that God’s latter day servant fails to gather Israel and laments about it, then the Lord assures him that he will yet gather Israel.

Several passages inform us that Joseph Smith is a “type and shadow” of Moses. (He is one like unto Moses)

As a latter-day Moses, Joseph Smith mirrored (or will mirror in the future) every major event that took place in the life of Moses.

The mistake that most people make when comparing Joseph Smith to Moses is that they only remember the positive and faith-promoting aspects of the life and ministry of Moses.

However, one of the most prominent and profound events in the life of Moses is when he committed a grievous sin of idolatry before the Lord. ( when he struck the rock with his staff and took credit for the miracle instead of sanctifying the Lord (giving credit to the Lord) as commanded. By so doing, he enticed the Children of Israel to put their trust in him, instead of God)

Because of that sin, the Lord told Moses that he could not cross over the river Jordan into the promised land with the Children of Israel.

He also informed Moses that he needed to forfeit his life.

Little is mentioned about how the Lord took Moses life, although Jude informs us that Michael the Archangel contended with the Devil in a disputation over the body of Moses.

As with many narratives in the Bible, there is a deeper narrative that sheds light on that surface narrative about the sin of Moses and the explanation about why Moses sinned.

The story behind the story is that prior to Moses’ committing this grievous sin, as he was walking down the mountain with the tablets containing the higher law, the Lord informed Moses that the Children of Israel had “corrupted themselves”.

Moses then observed that the Children of Israel were committing idolatry and worshipping a golden calf.

Because of this Moses made the following declaration to the Children of Israel:

“Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.”

Moses knew this transgression would bring the wrath of God down upon the Children of Israel. Indeed, the Lord informed Moses that he was going to CONSUME the Children of Israel off of the face of the earth.

In response to that grievous sin, Moses petitioned the Lord and offered HIMSELF as an INTERCESSORY “ATONEMENT” OFFERING in behalf of the apostate Children of Israel.

The details about this negotiation between Moses and God are quite impressive and revealing. The reader is encouraged to read the account for themselves.

Again, when Moses first intervened on behalf of the Children of Israel, the Lord exclaimed that he was going to consume the Children of Israel from off the face of the earth. He also stated that he would use Moses and his posterity to make a great nation:

Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.”

One might assume that such a response from the Lord would be acceptable to Moses and would take a great burden off of him. After all, he had labored painstakingly with the ungrateful, murmuring, and unbelieving Children of Israel and now was being told by the Lord that he would no longer need to labor with them and that his posterity would become a great nation.

In the act of compassion that is a type and shadow of the infinite atonement that would eventually be provided by Christ, Moses continued to intervene and negotiate with the Lord on behalf of Israel.

Although all atonement offerings before this time had to do with birds, animals, and precious metals, Moses offered HIMSELF up as an atonement offering.

This was the declaration Moses made to the Children of Israel:

“Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.”

The terms of the atonement offering that Moses suggested when the Lord did not initially agree to forgive the transgression of Israel, is beyond my comprehension:

“..blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.”

I don’t pretend to fully understand what Moses actually meant by that negotiation. It seems incomprehensible to me that Moses would forfeit his salvation in behalf of such a rebellious people.

It appears as if the Lord did not accept those terms. The Lord declared that it would not be Moses’ name that would be blotted out of the book, it would be those that had sinned:

“And the Lord said unto Moses, whosoever hath sinned against me, him w will I blot out of my book..”

Nevertheless, God accepted the intervention of Moses and withheld his wrath from consuming the children of Israel at that time.

However, the Lord’s wrath upon ancient Israel was only delayed until the day of visitation in the last days.

“..nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.”

A contextual study of this narrative and the events associated with it indicates to me that as a result of this intercession made by Moses, the sins of Israel were temporarily placed upon Moses and Aaron and they acted out the sins committed by the Children of Israel.

The Old Testament documents that when Moses and the Children of Israel arrived at the Jordan River, the Lord allowed Moses to climb a mountain and gaze over upon the land of promise that he was being prevented to enter. At that point, Moses pleaded with the Lord to change his mind and allow him to cross the Jordan and enter the land with the Children of Israel.

The Lord would not change the terms of the consequences of Moses’ sin.

Moses was not allowed to accompany Israel across the river into the promised land. Moses was directed by the Lord to go to the bottom of the mount wherein his life would come to an end.

Despite this abrupt ending to the life of Moses because of the sin that he committed, the scriptures and the Lord make it clear that Moses did not fall from grace. He continues to be revered by the Lord and the Lord’s future servants as a great prophet.

In the latter days, Moses was sent to Joseph and Oliver as a ministering angel ( Section 110).

Several prophecies in the Old Testament prophesy that in the latter days, there would be a prophet that would once again offer himself up as an atonement offering. One of them notes that the latter-day servant would not depart from the mercy of the Lord despite committing a great sin and being chastised by the rod of men:

“If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.”

Additionally, the Dead Sea Scrolls prophesy about a latter-day servant that would make an atonement offering for the children of Israel.

Unlike the atonement that would be made by Christ, the atonement offering made by this latter-day servant would be a temporal one for the sins of his generation.

In addition to the sin offering made by the servant, people would invent lots of lies and shameful things about him.

This servant would one day ARISE after making his atonement.

It would be during a time of lying and violence and great wrath. At that time, the servant would overthrow his generation:

ds prophecy.png

 [Note: The brackets in the above text are provided by the translators, not me]


It is my belief that Joseph Smith is the latter-day servant that offered himself as an atonement offering like unto Moses.

He experienced a very similar scenario with Latter-day Israel, as the one that Moses had with ancient Israel.

Just as Moses attempted to deliver the higher law and get the Children of Israel to repent and see the face of God, Joseph Smith also attempted to get the Children of Israel to live the law of God and behold his face.

Just as Moses sinned before God after offering an atonement on behalf of the Children of Israel, Joseph Smith did also.

Just as Moses delivered the Children of Israel out of bondage with a stretched out arm, ancient prophecy informs us that a latter day servant will once again lead latter day Israel out of bondage with an outstretched arm.

Modern scripture agrees with this and identifies Joseph Smith as the latter day Moses that returns with power and an outstretched arm.

Notice how the ancient scriptural texts regarding the “stretched out arm of Moses” in leading the Children of Israel out of bondage compare to the keywords in the prophecy in the scriptural text referring to how Joseph Smith will lead latter-day Israel out of Bondage with a stretched out arm:


The Stretched Out Arm of Moses
Exodus & Deuteronomy
The Stretched Out Arm of Joseph Smith
D&C 103
Exodus 6:6

6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:


Deuteronomy 4:34

34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?


Deuteronomy 5:15

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.


Deuteronomy 7:19

19 The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the Lord thy God brought thee out: so shall the Lord thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.


Deuteronomy 9:29

29 Yet they are thy people and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest out by thy mighty power and by thy stretched out arm.


Deuteronomy 11:2

2 And know ye this day: for I speak not with your children which have not known, and which have not seen the chastisement of the Lord your God, his greatness, his mighty hand, and his stretched out arm,


15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.

22 Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged—Gather yourselves together unto the land of Zion, upon the land which I have bought with money that has been consecrated unto me.

23 And let all the churches send up wise men with their moneys, and purchase lands even as I have commanded them.

24 And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land, which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands after these testimonies, which ye have brought before me against them, ye shall curse them;

25 And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies.

26 And my presence shall be with you even in avenging me of mine enemies, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

27 Let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake; for whoso layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again.

28 And whoso is not willing to lay down his life for my sake is not my disciple.


A comparison of the above passages clearly establishes Joseph Smith as the servant that will lead latter-day Israel out of bondage with power and a stretched out arm just as Moses did anciently. An all-knowing God who has the past, present, and future continually before his eyes has given an unconditional promise.

I believe that a close examination of the life and ministry of Joseph Smith parallels the narrative found in the life and ministry of Moses.

After Joseph Smith restored the scriptures and the LAW and built the Kirtland Temple, the latter-day saints rejected the law.

Following that, Joseph offered an acceptable offering unto the Lord just as Moses had done anciently. In so doing, the sins of Israel were placed upon him as the intercessor just as they had been placed upon Moses. Because of this, Joseph began acting out the very sins that latter-day Israel had been guilty of committing just as Moses had previously acted out.

Joseph’s Early Kirtland Years vs. the Later Nauvoo Years
In the early Kirtland years Joseph Smith- 
1- produced scripture that revealed that the law of the gospel required the marital law of monogamy. (see section 42 & 49). Additionally, the Book of Mormon warns against the evils and polygamy and reveals that polygamy is one of the primary reasons why God declared that the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites and that the Lamanites would not be destroyed off of the face of the land and would eventually become a blessed people.   (Jacob 3)
2- produced scripture and taught that involvement in any kind of secret society that required blood oaths were offshoots of the covenant that Satan and Cain entered into, and that we should expose them and avoid them like the plague. The Book of Mormon provides details about the very first secret combination, revealing the same dark elements found in Free Masonry. In modern revelation, the Lord complimented Elder Warren Cowdery for separating himself from the craft of Masonry. 
 3- in concert with Sidney Rigdon taught and canonized what has become known as the Lectures on Faith which taught that God the Father has always existed as God and has never been a mortal man. They teach that there have NEVER been any Gods before or beside him. He is the all-powerful self-existent being from which all other created beings gain their power and existence. 
A decade later during the late Nauvoo years, Joseph Smith completely contradicted is prior teachings and many of the scriptures he brought forth. Among other things, he- 
1- secretly introduced a spiritual wife form of celestial polygamy that totally contradicts the marital law of celestial monogamy. It totally contradicts what the Bible, Book of Mormon and modern revelation. 
2- led the saints into the dark practice of Free Masonry and supported the building of multiple Masonic Temples during the time when the Lord was chastising the saints for not focusing all of their time, energy and money on building the Nauvoo Temple. He also allowed (and possibly endorsed) the creation of the Danites which was a secret order within the church that entered into a secret blood oath to avenge the latter day saints against the “gentiles”. The Danites are responsible for wreaking havoc on several non-Mormon communities and possibly guilty of committing murders. That secret organization apparently provided the inspiration if not the leadership and manpower for what would later become known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre. 
3- He taught the blasphemous King Follett Discourse which contradicts virtually every major point about the nature and character of God contained in the Lectures on Faith as well as the Bible and Book of Mormon and original Doctrine and Covenant. It falsely teaches that God the Father was once a mortal man and that he is just one in an infinite number of Gods that went before him. It falsely teaches that we can become a God with a capital “G” rather than gods with a small “g”, ie, the sons of God who reach godhood and receive of the fulness through the atonement of Christ.  

Other teachings and practices during the Nauvoo period that were incongruent with the pure and simple fulness of the Gospel that was introduced a decade earlier could be sited but for now, this will suffice.

Just as there was a secret narrative behind the sin of Moses, the same was true of the sins committed by Joseph Smith.

Before the later years in Nauvoo, the latter-day Saints became an apostate people just as ancient Israel did. The entire church was condemned by the Lord in 1834 and they were rejected as a church with their dead in 1841.

Joseph Smith offered himself as a temporal atonement offering in behalf of the apostate latter day saints just as Moses had offered himself as an atonement offering for ancient Israel.
All of this was foretold by the Lord in 1829 when the Lord warned the saints that he would deliver them over to Satan if they hardened their hearts and failed to repent. 

This has all been documented in the following book.

book 1

You can listen to the three chapters documenting the intercession of Joseph Smith and the Atonement Statute prophecy below-


Notable Emails #33: “God Will Not Fix the Broken Apostate Church”

October 2, 2017

[Editorial Notes: It has been a long time since I have shared some notable emails. This series got ahead of me and I lost track of many great exchanges. Some of these exchanges are quite old.

Many very interesting exchanges have been lost in the shuffle. I may go back and try to retrieve some for the next installment if I can. My apologies to those that have had some good exchanges that have not been included.]

Email Exchange #1
“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our
enemies and put them under our feet.”

Dear Watcher,

I was intrigued the first time I read your suggestion that, as Moses had offered to bear the sins of his congregation, so JSjr had done similarly.

You described the scapegoat in the story of the two goats presented yearly for the High Priest to make his selection of the goat to be driven into the wilderness.

Now I’ve not been a student of the Old Testament so I followed along without expending a great deal of energy.

But tonight I read an article which was based on the same OT story, but also included other facts which I wondered whether you had ever considered or rejected. This is actually part 9 of a 10 part series and I only listened to it because it was recommended by Steve Quayle on one of his podcasts. It’s not long, so I copied it off for you. [The article is not included in this post but you can read it here ]

My Response

Interesting article..

That is a wonderful parallel about Jesus building upon the rock of the watchers… of course, Joseph Smith and the scriptures inform us that the literal meaning is the “rock of revelation”, nevertheless, I love the parallel..

I can remember reading about the evil watchers and wondering if I was ill advised to call myself onewhoiswatching and accepting the nickname of Watcher LOL… luckily there is a positive use of the word watcher in the scriptures as well…

Also, I remember reading about Azazel in the Book of Enoch (although spelled slightly differently than in the OT) and wondering if it was referring to and relevant to the Azazel in the Atonement Statute in Lev 16… it really sobered me up wondering if in fact Joseph could have been an evil demon that did a work of deception, either from the beginning of his ministry, or if he was a true prophet at first, perhaps he fell never to repent after falling from a high and holy calling.

Ultimately, I have concluded that the name is similar in the Book of Enoch but does not refer to the same historic figure.

His response

I think your nom de plume of OneWhoIsWatching (Watcher) is the best name I’ve seen for the type of work you do. It is such a great name that OneWhoIsSearching has given you credit by his close approximation.

The storyline for the 10 episodes is that Jesus came to the earth to die on the cross, not only to redeem humanity, but also to destroy the work of the evil ones.

That statement brought me up sharply because I had just finished working on my poetic rendition of DC 3. There are 12 references where Jesus tells JSjr that “I will” perform something and two more where he says that “will I” also referring to performing a thing.

Word crunching “I will” yields 205 citations to RLDS DC 1-144. But, section 3 makes specific reference to the destruction of the evil works of satan.

2a Verily I say unto you:

That I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing.

This was given in connection with the loss of the BOM pages during the translation effort. The Lord says also:

And thus I will confound those who have altered My words.
9d I will not suffer that they shall destroy My work.
Yea I will show unto them that My wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil.

Two other comments:

1. I was struck by the forcefulness of the repetitive use of “I will” which is stated as a strong, confident warriorlike being. It thrilled me to see that the Lord was so committed to taking charge.

2. I’m attaching a copy of the full section because I have started separating and highlighting the opening Lord’s statements in introducing a particular subject matter. Looked at this way, it is as if the Lord were putting in his own “heading” which again is a great help to the readers.

Finally, I showed this technique to my congregation (small though it may be) last sunday, and they commented that even though they had read section 85 (the olive leaf) many, many times, this time they felt like they were seeing it really for the first time. It’s really fun to share with the saints that which brings renewed excitement about our current scriptures.  [DC 3 poetry]

My Response

“The storyline for the 10 episodes is that Jesus came to the earth to die on the cross, not only to redeem humanity, but also to destroy the work of the evil ones.”

Very profound observations ….

You have done some marvelous keyword crunching magic in unlocking higher truth.

You have hit on two of my very favorite topics that I have been pondering.

One of the overriding contextual narratives that shows up time and again throughout the scriptures that one needs to understand in order to fully appreciate the plan of salvation is the fact that there must needs be “opposition in all things” ie, opposing forces in all things and that one of the primary reasons we have been sent to this earth life is to overcome the opposing forces.

As I was doing my study of the restoration of the high priesthood I came across several passages and statements from Joseph Smith that address this topic of destroying and overcoming the work of the evil forces… including the the following definition of salvation:

Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death… Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies… TPJS Page 297 & 305

Section 50 was given just prior to the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood for the purpose of preparing the elders for the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In that Section we are informed that those that are “ordained of Godbecome a possessor of all things and all things are subject to them:

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.
27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all things; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth,

The topic of “when ‘I will’” is one of Mrs. Watchers favorite topics.

When asked when the Lord will make his move in pulling down the towers of the enemies and destroying the work of Satan, the Lord replied; “when ‘I will’“.

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.
27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all thing58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.
59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?
60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth,

Just as attorneys like you have their own secret language that the masses don’t understand, where English words and phrases mean completely different things than commonly assumed, scripture also has words that have a deeper meaning sometimes that need to be searched out.

We have a tendency to take His words for granted in the scriptures and thus, we miss the real deeper intent.

There is POWER in words once they are understood and used properly.

There is a book that you would really enjoy if you have not already read it Ed.

It is called “Written by the Finger of God” by Joe Sampson.

I am providing a few screen shots that pertain to the cryptic key phrase “all things


Inline image 1

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Email Exchange #2
The Dispensation of Mercy


I remember reading somewhere in your book or one of your many blogs about the dispensation of mercy.

I cannot recall if it was dispensation of Abraham, because Christ appeared to Joseph and Oliver standing on the mercy seat or if the dispensation of mercy was the last dispensation prior to the dispensation of Abraham.

Here’s why I ask.

I was reading in your book, and you had mentioned that the term “from day to day” is really referring to “dispensation to dispensation”.

You had quoted 2 Ne. 28:32

Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

Yet the Lord says that he will be merciful unto them. Then I found this interesting phrase, “all the day long”

In other words, all the dispensation long.

So I did a word search for “all the day long” and found these interesting verses.

Jacob 5:47
But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?

Jacob 6:4
And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Jacob 6:7
For behold, after ye have been nourished by the good word of God all the day long, will ye bring forth evil fruit, that ye must be hewn down and cast into the fire?

D&C 43:25
How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!

For me, I tend to remember that the dispensation of Abraham was one of mercy. And as I follow the scripture chain it looks like that during this dispensation prior to the dispensation of the fulness of times or the ushering in of the 3rd Watch that we are being felt after, or God’s hand is stretched out still and we are being nourished by the good word.

That his mercy can be found by those who take his word to be their guide. But there will be many who will deny him and his word because they put their trust in the arm of the flesh as stated in 2 Ne 28:32 or 31

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men.

My Response

Great string of related passages thank you for sharing

I had two ah ha’s regarding these topics.

One had to do with how the protestants characterize and differentiate between the definitions of mercy and grace

Question: “What is the difference between mercy and grace?”

Answer: Mercy and grace are often confused. While the terms have similar meanings, grace and mercy are not the same.

To summarize the difference: mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve, and grace is God blessing us despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mercy is deliverance from judgment. Grace is extending kindness to the unworthy.

Another similar quote from a protestant site is as follows:

“Grace is what God gives us when we don’t deserve and mercy is when God doesn’t give us what we do deserve”

Although there is some overlap in the use of the two terms and there are always exceptions to the rule, I have noticed that when the fulness was on the earth, grace seemed to be the primary emphasis and when the fulness was rejected, mercy seemed to be the reoccurring theme in the scriptures… case in point, even though the term grace shows up more times in modern revelation than mercy, the dedicatory prayer in 109 and God’s response to it in 110 that was taking place during the transition point ushering in the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham pleads for mercy instead of requesting grace-
Doctrine and Covenants 109:34

34 O Jehovah, have mercy upon this people, and as all men sin, forgive the transgressions of thy people, and let them be blotted out forever.

Doctrine and Covenants 109:50

50 Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;

Doctrine and Covenants 109:54

54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

Doctrine and Covenants 109:62

62 We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob, that Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed;

Doctrine and Covenants 109:69

69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand.

Doctrine and Covenants 109:70

70 Have mercy upon all their immediate connections, that their prejudices may be broken up and swept away as with a flood; that they may be converted and redeemed with Israel, and know that thou art God.

Doctrine and Covenants 110:7

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house

With that for context, I was struck by the following use of the terms “today” and “day” in conjunction with the term sacrifice in the following passages:

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.

” 25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.
Those passages came on September 11 1831 just months after the restoration of the fulness.

Before the secret history of Mormonism began to emerge in my consciousness, I assumed “the coming of the son of man” was referring to the final coming of Christ in glory…. and it probably is, taking into consideration the duel fulfillment of prophecy, HOWEVER, I think the passage also had reference to the secret coming of the Lord that would take place about 4 1/4 years later.

The coming of the Son of Man was to be the transition point between a day of Grace when the fulness was on the earth and the day of mercy when the fulness would be taken from the earth and only the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness would remain, requiring us to study the word of God and receive his mercy until the next day change comes. During this time frame that we have been living in, we have not had the opportunity to offer up the daily sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit or enter into the true law of consecration that can only successfully be lived by those who offer up the daily sacrifice.

I think that the above passages were stating that “today”, or, in other words, the current “dispensation” that they were living in was the “time” or “day” when the SACRIFICE OF A BROKEN HEART AND CONTRITE SPIRIT could be offered up and that TITHING (consecration) could be entered into since the fulness was on the earth.

That “day” or dispensation was to come to an end when the Son of Man came to his temple in 1836.

During that next day, marked by the coming of the Son of Man, was to be a day of Mercy since gospel blessings could not longer be enjoyed in their fulness.

Hence the significance of Joseph’s petition when he and Oliver entered into the covenant for the “continuation of [gospel] blessings” to bridge the gape between the rejection of the fulness and the end of the opportunity to offer up the sacrifice and tithing.

Interestingly, an understanding of the significance of this concept ends up being just one more evidence that the false prophets of our day who are claiming the gospel blessing of the second comforter are deceived.

Email Exchange #3


Hey one more question if you don’t mind.  I am just getting to your 4 PDF timeline videos on Youtube.  I just listened to the first one today.  You mentioned that we could email you and ask for the PDF you put together to go with those videos.  Might I still be able to get a copy?

Also do you believe Jehovah (YHVH) is the name of God the Father and that he is the God of the Old Testament, and the Yeshua is the name of Christ?  I also listen to some of Jake Hiltons stuff and this has been what he has been talking about most as of late so I thought I would ask you in passing.

Thanks much,

My Response

I have attached the graphic

I believe that Christ and the Father are one in the sense that Christ is the tabernacle of element  (or temple) in which the Father dwells. Conversely, the Father is a tabernacle of spirit and flaming fire in which Christ dwells.

This is why we are told multiple times in scripture that they are ONE.

Nevertheless, they have the ability to separate out of each other and to converse with each other and to function as separate and specific beings that can be differentiated one from another which is why there are multiple places in scripture that clearly establish how they can function individually and communicate with each other.

We are informed from the JST genesis that the Father created the Son and that the Father creates all other things through the son.

I was not aware that Hilton was still actively teaching or making videos.. is the stuff you have been listening to recent?

Can you send a link?

His Response

Great thanks for sending that.

Very interesting thoughts you shared there on Who God is. Thanks. This ride just keeps getting crazier and crazier.

A couple thoughts on that if you don’t mind just to help me try and piece this together and understand. I listened to video 2 of those 4 videos you had made today and you had mentioned something along the lines of these people that are claiming to have their second comforter experience just may not be the case do to them being able to skip over all the stuff that the early saints didn’t do. I do have some close friends that I have made that the Spirit has lead me to, and they have had this experience and I do believe them. So my thought is in their experiences they have gone to the Throne room, and then Christ has taken them to The Father and to Mother. So any thoughts on that or is it like you said in your previous email ” Nevertheless, they have the ability to separate out of each other and to converse with each other and to function as specific beings that can be differentiated one from another which is why there are multiple places in scripture that clearly establish how they can function individually and communicate with each other.”

In Video 2 today you also spoke of the Morley Farm experience where several saw the Father and the Son.
Would that just happen to be a time where he had separated himself for whatever purpose needed to be filled that day?

So John 17:11 – And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are

So we’ve been taught all our life that this is one in purpose, and will and desire and so forth. So how can we become one with them where we are clearly separate beings than who God is? Hope that makes sense.

So Here is a scripture that may tie into this, or it may not. It is a scripture that is most interesting the way it reads, it is D&C 88:28. It says:

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

So this is something I have been taught elsewhere, that we are more than just spirit and a physical body. That there are more aspects, or bodies that make up the complete us. We are more sophisticated than just spirit and a tabernacle of clay. That these other bodies that make up ourself are out there doing something, we just don’t have full awareness of them yet.

Anyways, I know I am not the clearest writer, and I wish I could explain myself better, but hopefully some of that makes sense. I truly am only seeking truth and greater understanding, and I have come along ways. I do appreciate you letting me bounce some thoughts and questions off of you and to get your feedback with your knowledge.

In regards to Hilton he started making videos again about 2 months ago and has one each week, I really enjoy them actually. He explains his little adventure while he was absent in his first newest one I believe. Here is the link to his youtube channel:

Also is there any other stuff you would rec

ommend me listen too? I have several hours each day that I can listen while I work.

Thanks much

My Reply

I don’t know what you are looking for in a response. I simply don’t believe your friends are having a valid experience with the true God. Period.
God has said that he would send this apostate people their delusions. This is why so many delusional people are claiming to have the Second Comforter even though they don’t qualify for it and they don’t fully understand what it is.
If you want to believe they are having those experiences that is up to you… but I can’t comment on why they are seeing the Father and Mother when I don’t believe their story.
I believe the fulness was rejected four generations ago and we are in total apostasy. Your friends seem to be oblivious to the fact that they are in darkness, they are not living the LAW and they simply don’t qualify to be admitted into the presence of the Father and the Son.
You said:
“In Video 2 today you also spoke of the Morley Farm experience where several saw the Father and the Son.  Would that just happen to be a time where he had separated himself for whatever purpose needed to be filled that day?
Yes. In an upcoming post I am going to reiterate how the Father and the Son dwell in each other and can separate out when they deem it necessary.
You said:
So John 17:11 – And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are
So we’ve been taught all our life that this is one in purpose, and will and desire and so forth.  So how can we become one with them where we are clearly separate beings than who God is?  Hope that makes sense.
The relationship of the Father and the Son is typological to how ours will be with them. Those that become exalted will have the Holy Ghost as their mind Just as the Father and Son have the Holy Ghost as their mind. Further, it is very possible that we will dwell in the Father and Son just as the Son dwells in the Father.
These are mystical eternal things that our natural minds cannot comprehend. 
You said:
So Here is a scripture that may tie into this, or it may not.  It is a scripture that is most interesting the way it reads, it is D&C 88:28.  It says:
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
So this is something I have been taught elsewhere, that we are more than just spirit and a physical body.  That there are more aspects, or bodies that make up the complete us.  We are more sophisticated than just spirit and a tabernacle of clay. That these other bodies that make up ourself are out there doing something, we just don’t have full awareness of them yet.
I believe that God organized intelligences out of unorganized intelligences but he used intelligences from celestial, terrestrial and telestial parts of eternity and that each type ends up going through probation and becoming quickened and resurrected  based on what kind of intelligence they were to begin with… that is why the New Testament speaks of predestination and Joseph Smith did not change that term when he did the inspired version.
Another Response from Him
Also is there any other stuff you would recommend me listen too?  I have several hours each day that I can listen while I work.
I don’t necessarily have anything to recommend.
Thanks for sending the link to Hilton… I don’t accept his testimony. I think he has seen a false Christ just like all of the other false prophets out there.
Another Response from Him
Watcher, I just read your recent post where you outlined many of the questions that I had from my recent emails with you. I thank you for all the information in that post. I wish I had the capacity, and brain power, to comprehend all this information but I simply don’t. I wanted to say I have only read a few chapters of one of Snuffers books. I am not super familiar with him at this time. I ask this question not to be combative, but in all sincerity as I try and understand. Aren’t there many many scriptures where the invitation from our God has been extended to seek Him, to know Him, and to see his face?
I understand that the church has gotten off track in many ways. I understand that we are in a state of apostasy now, but weren’t things also in a lost state when Joseph had his experience in seeing God?
So can’t individuals literally come unto God now in this state of apostasy just as Joseph was able too?
Again I only ask this because I value your understanding. I am weak in my learning and understanding, and so I hope you don’t mind one more email from me. I do appreciate your time.
After I had read that lengthy post, I prayed for help and understanding to try and comprehend all this information because it is quite heavy. I felt the Spirit tell me that it is ok if I don’t understand all of this perfectly at this time, non the less I am still a little curious of my other questions that I asked above.
I thank you again for all you do. Thanks for your time, and I continue to look forward to your future posts.
Thanks much brother,
My Reply
“Aren’t there many many scriptures where the invitation from our God has been extended to seek Him, to know Him, and to see his face?”

I don’t find your questioning to be combative at all. You are asking a really good and important question.

Yes there are lots of scriptures that talk about the importance of seeing Gods face. In fact, Section 76, in my opinion, informs us that all of the elect will see the face of God in the flesh during mortality. (but there are aspects of those passages that are misunderstood, I think the elect that have passed on without having seen the face of God will be returned to the earth and will see God in the flesh)

There are two issues at play here.

The general one has to do with whether or not people (any people) are actually seeing and conversing with Christ and the Father right now.

I happen to believe from my studies that the heavens have become sealed until the appointed time comes and the servants return. The sealing of the heavens has to do with the rejection of the fulness that took place four generations ago. The Book of Mormon informs us that it is through faith that people see God but that the heavens can be shut through a general lack of faith of the people.

My scriptural and historical reasoning for the conclusion that the heavens have been sealed involves countless references that are scattered throughout over 300 blog posts.

I totally understand if you don’t understand or agree with that conclusion and frankly, I don’t see any harm in people desiring to see and converse with God while the heavens are sealed as long as they are worshiping in conformity with scripture and their beliefs are founded in sound doctrine.

The second issue at play has to do with whether or not Denver Snuffer is a true prophet that we need to accept or be damned.

I believe you can discern a true or false prophet by the doctrine they teach.

Again, my reasoning for rejecting Snuffer and related documentation for my conclusions is dispersed through many posts that i don’t have the time to catalogue and explain in detail right now. ( I have been asked by a Snufferite to do a post and detail all of the false doctrines which I may do in a few months)

Suffice it to say, virtually every major doctrine he has introduced has been false.

We can begin with the false doctrine that made him popular and famous and generated a huge following for him.

Many years ago he taught that the LDS church was true and that any baptized member of the church can receive the “second comforter” by simply exercising faith.

He has greatly changed his narrative since then. Instead of encouraging people to get their second comforter he is now telling them they need to start all over and repent of their apostasy and get the true baptism and enter into a new covenant with God, etc.

The chronology of events and teachings association  with the Snuffer movement is one continuous contradiction.

I have shown that the fulness of the priesthood must be on the earth, that a person must first enter into the gate through the true water baptism followed by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, and that a person must then receive the “first comforter” and prove that they will follow God at all costs.

Next, a person would need to receive their calling and election BEFORE Christ himself would ever visit and reveal the mysteries of the universe to someone.

The huge mistake that Snuffer made on that doctrine is in assuming that ALL visitations of Christ ( including Joseph Smith’s first vision) fall under the definition of the “Second Comforter” which is not true.

Christ does and has visited people before they received their calling and election and received their Second Comforter visits wherein the mysteries of the universe are revealed.

An example of that is in the case of Joseph Smith and the “first vision”. The First Vision that took place in about 1820 was not a “Second Comforter” visitation. Joseph did not even receive the “first comforter” ” until 1832. ( See D&C 88:3)

The other false doctrines taught by Snuffer are to numerous to list but they include stating in his book that no authority from God is necessary to perform a baptism… then he later decided that people needed to be endorsed by seven women to have priesthood authority to perform baptisms, etc. He teaches that the historicity of the event documented in Section 110 is questionable. If he was a true prophet he would authoritatively declare one way of the other whether it is true or not. ( he would declare that it is true) [editorial note: Snuffer has since received a revelation substantiating that section 110 did take place but changing the content thereof]

He teaches that celestial polygamy as taught in section 132 according to his interpretation, is a true doctrine

He teaches that Abraham’s patriarchal priesthood is a higher order of priesthood than the Melchizedek Priesthood.

He recently taught that his inspired version of the Testimony of John the Beloved (Gospel of John) is the fulfillment of the “record of john” that was to come forth according to section 93. The “record of John” in section 93 is actually referring to the record of John the Baptist.,

In his inspired version of St John he deleted at least three of the things that Joseph revealed in the Inspired Version of the Bible

I could go on and on but don’t have the time to list everything and elaborate.

These are just my opinions.

Obviously, if your inspired study of scripture and the history of the church reveals to you that Denver is the Lords true servant then of course you should heed his worlds.

I only share my opinions.. I have no desire to be anyone’s guide. The Holy Ghost should be your guide

Another Response in this Exchange

I am still studying out your view on the Godhead vs. what we’ve been taught our whole life. I know you touched on the Father and the Son being one, and I did read Lectures on Faith, 5th lecture, where it described the Father, and where it described Christ as the tabernacle. I am curious how D&C 130:22 ties into that:

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Does this tie into what you are saying, they can each have their own body and be separate if they/HE/GOD wants? or can be one entity if HE wants? Or is the Father only Spirit with no body, and Christ is God in Tabernacle?
I think you know what I am asking hopefully. Wish I was more capable of being clear, but I will see what you respond with if you have a sec.

Thanks much,

My Reply

Section 130 has been proven false.

Under the direction of Brigham Young, Orson Pratt is the one that inserted section 130 into the Doctrine and Covenants, HOWEVER, if you research the whole content in the proper context, Joseph Smith was correcting Orson Hyde for teaching the false doctrine that the Father has a body of flesh and bones.

You can verify this by going to the Joseph Smith Papers Project and looking at the original

I have covered this in past posts, including this one

Here is a email from the searcher covering this topic:

P.S. You should check the comments section of my blog on King Follett. Josh left an amazing reference from the JS Papers which indicates that Joseph was actually correcting the false doctrine taught by Orson Hyde, namely that the Father has a body of flesh and bones that has since become D&C 130:22.

A great post on the background as to how we received D&C section 130 can be found here:
To quote directly from that post — “where did section 130 come from?”
Elder Orson Pratt and Elder Orson Hyde added it to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1876. It came from a series of talks that Orson Hyde gave in the presence of Joseph Smith in 1842. Some of the items that Orson Hyde spoke on were not accurate, such that it required a private correction by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, Volume 2 page 324, on April 2, 1842, Joseph recorded:
“Elder Hyde I am going to offer some corrections to you. Elder Hyde replied – they shall be thankfully received. – When he (Christ) shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he (Christ) is a man like ourselves. – (Parenthesis added).
This is consistent with the Lectures on Faith. The Son (Christ) is a man, a ‘tabernacle of clay’. Just like us. However, later on, Joseph records the following on page 326:
“There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven. Before the foundation of the world upon which all blessings are predicted and when we obtain a blessing it is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated. Again reverted to Elder Hyde’s mistake. &c the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. – and a person cannot have the personage . It may descend upon him but not to tarry with him.— (Bold and Italics added)
“So the clincher here, the way Joseph Wrote in his Journal is he elaborated on “Elder Hyde’s mistake”, by writing. “&c”. I had to look this up, but &c is another way to write Etc. Normally we would write this after the sentence. However, Joseph Used it before the sentence, in fact it starts the sentence, listing Elder Hyde’s mistake. What was Elder Hydes mistake? Amongst other things (&c): the Father having a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans the son also and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. I assert that Joseph was trying to lay out to Elder Hyde, that to know God, you must know correctly about God. Then preceded to correct his errors, which errors, he listed for us in his Journal.”
“In Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith Clearly states that God is a SPIRIT OF GLORY AND POWER, and further that the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE MIND OF GOD.”

joshsaid:October 4, 2016 at 10:01 am
the Joseph Smith Papers captures this incident with Joseph correcting Elder Hyde on the Godhead:
Section 130:22 was one of the things at odds with those brethren on the committee that decided to remove the Lectures on Faith from the D&C in 1921 without a vote. They felt that the description Joseph gave of the Father in lecture on Faith chapter 5 (?) was at odds with what was in section 130:22, which apparently was added to the D&C sometime after Joseph and Hyrum were slain.
This is really awesome and really shows just how easy it is to inadvertently mistake notes from Joseph correcting Orson and how it literally can change the entire trajectory of belief of all of us!

Email Exchange #4
“..your lack of integrity and filtering comments is appalling”


I’ve given up on Adrian and his blog.

This was my last post after he sensored me again.

I can no longer take this blog nor its content creator seriously.

Adrian, your lack of integrity and filtering comments is appalling.

For someone who proclaims to “love the truth” your willingness to defend the Denver Snuffer from the accusations of being a false prophet to the point where you filter comments from your readers that challenge Denver has led me to believe that both you and he are not only deceived but maliciously trying to deceive others by not allowing the truth to be told.

Regardless of your fear of the scriptures exposing you, the truth will stand on its own.

My Reply

Frankly, it is difficult to take any of the growing number of Snufferites seriously who try to defend what Snuffer has taught, particularly the ones who claim to have received the Second Comforter, which includes continuous ongoing visitations of instruction into the mysteries by the Savior.

To the credit of Anonymous Bishop, he seems to allow at least some differing views on his blog- Here are some from a recent post that are notable-

[I realize that providing these links can increase readership to a blog that I think is dangerous and promotes a false prophet, but, people who read this blog are grown ups and should be able to discern truth from error]

Email Exchange # 5
“I appreciated you pointing out what the “new covenant” means in other scripture”


In a recent post you disagreed with Snuffers interpretation of D&C 84: and said that it is not referring to the Book of Mormon and revelations Joseph brought forth as being a literal covenant that the saints were to enter into.

I appreciated you pointing out what the “new covenant” means in other scripture, but could you please explain away the actual wording of those passages because I can see how they might appear to be stating what snuffer says they are saying.

My Response

I think a contextual reading of the passage in view of everything previouly said in scripture about the “new covenant” and the book of Mormon (which includes a detailed description of what the “new covenant” is), indicates that this is what was meant:

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant [by repenting and receiving the baptism of water, fire and the Holy Ghost], even [as it is contained in] the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

In the above passage I have provided clarity by making some insertions.

To verify the above interpretation one only needs to do a simple keyword search of the term “new covenant” to find that it is always referring to the covenant with Christ and never refers to the written word.

Exchange #6
“Of course, once you entertain the possibility of multiple mortalities,
other sacred cows are up for debate”


Back to the original topic, related to multiple mortalities.  For some reason, this concept has appealed to me since I took a world religions class 25 years ago.  Our culture seems to value “upward mobility”. There is something to be said for those who can find value in living well any class of life they are born to. Our drive for wealth and honor probably take us in the exact opposite direction of eternal salvation.  My concept of reincarnation involves living best the life I have, knowing my reward or punishment is coming in the next life.  I cannot imagine eternal punishment, but I can imagine being born into an abusive family as a consequence of abusing my children. Whether it is real or not, it helps me to treat others the way I would want if I were in their place. It also makes sense to me that we can’t possibly experience everything in one life.  Just look at how long Adam had to get things right!  If I incorporate Buddhist belief, when I finally learn to transcend the fallen man, to stop lusting for the chains of hell, I can get off the wheel.  (In that case, the path of Christ and spiritual rebirth is really the only viable way to do it because the spirit we die with is the same one we take with us to the next life.)  The Buddhist concept of bodhisattva is similar to what we have been talking about with the return of the servants.  These are people who obtained enlightenment and have earned the right to “get off the wheel” who choose to come back to mortality again to help others find the path also.  As far as I know, they don’t necessarily have power to do miracles, or remember who they were, they just have the ability to lead others by their example because they have already found the way themselves.

You talked about the justness of whether someone lives in a time of available light or only darkness.  It seems to me that God is content to let things go for the most part. letting people learn through experience, little by little.  Unfortunately, that usually leads to a time when they will be universally destroyed.  Then the window of light opens, the prophets warn of coming destruction and repentance. A few are saved, most are not.  If there really are only certain times when the opportunity to ascend is provided, then there must be other chances for people to learn and try again.  God intends to save as many as will hear his voice.  During the Millennium, those who didn’t make the spiritual mark won’t get a chance to mess it up for everyone else.  When they are finally allowed to return, the millenium ends with major warfare before the earth is burned.  Somehow we do believe that children who die young can be raised in the millenium, but we don’t believe in being born more than once.  I’m not really sure how that works. Nor does it seem fair that some people will live and die at a time when Satan is bound when so many others have been lost because they live in times of extreme spiritual darkness on the earth.

Of course, once you entertain the possibility of multiple mortalities, other sacred cows are up for debate, like the idea we just came to earth so we can have a body, and that our spirits look just like our physical bodies.  Appearances could be a matter of choice, like what clothes you choose to wear each day.  Joseph Smith taught spirits are composed of matter already, it is more refined.  So, we want to permanently trade refined purer bodies for the ones we have? I don’t know that is an upgrade. It could just be these bodies are our only means to experience opposition, which is the refiing fire that upgrades our spiritual bodies.  Or, the privilege to interact with matter as matter, rather than energy and light is the blessing we were wanting.

Multiple mortalities also calls into question our concept of eternal families as a permanent form of our earthly families.  What would be the point if you have had several family situations, and if we are all children of God anyway? I tend to think we were put in family groups before we came, and the test is to see which will not wipe themselves out before this term of earth’s probation is finished.  That is why Abraham was promised his seed would continue.  For me, the family provides a workshop to refine us.  We can practice on a small scale the skills needed to build Zion.  I don’t think the Lord ever intended for us to focus on the family to the exclusion of the rest of humanity.  The Nephite and Lamanite Zion started falling apart as soon as they brought back the labels.  One of the tricks we need to learn is to see and think of “others” as “family”. Even better would be to see Christ in everyone and act accordingly, but that is asking for a bigger leap of imagination.

I suppose there could be a point where a husband and wife are “sealed” in some manner, in the course of multiple lives, but the majority probably wouldn’t want to be.  It seems to me that we lure men into the idea by telling them that’s the only option other than eternal celibacy, and we tell the wives to hang in there because any husband who is celestialized will be worth keeping forever, no matter how flawed he seems now.  Besides, the alternative is to be a servant to other couples who took the forever marriage track.  I know you have talked about composite beings, but couldn’t it just as likely be that through marriage, each half develops the strengths of the other half, so you become two complete beings instead of just one at the end?

Well, that’s enough of my off the cuff ramblings.  As you can tell, I didn’t back up anything with scripture, and you probably won’t see any of this on any comment sections. It is helpful to me to try organizing it into some kind of sense instead of letting it roll around in my thoughts in random bits.  I would appreciate any other thoughts you have either is support or to refute it.  At this point, none of these beliefs are solid.  I’m kind of waiting for the record of Jared’s brother to straighten me out, since I doubt the church will change its polygamy  based family doctrine any time soon.


My Response

I once knew a fundamentalist fellow who quoted the scripture “how long can rolling waters remain impure?” and he opined that the scripture was referring to the fact that just as dirty water becomes pure over the process of time rolling over rocks, the imperfect and unclean soul also eventually becomes clean and prefect over the process of multiple probations. He felt that EVERYONE, even Satan would eventually become clean and pure.

At the time, I thought that was a beautiful way to explain and justify the doctrine of multiple probations.

Many years later I have come to the conclusion that his theory contradicts most of what the scriptures teach and denies the power and purpose of the atonement. Frankly, I don’t think it is a good way to describe the fulness of the Gospel that is described in the scriptures.

I think the warning in the Book of Mormon, that “today is the day of your salvation” to those who live when the fulness is on the earth is very literally and justified. There is a window of opportunity that needs to be taken.

I have come to the conclusion that there are three differing gospel laws and that the concept of multiple probations is not congruent with the highest one. Probably not with any of them, but definitely not with celestial law as described in scripture.

My sister was recently asked to speak at a women’s conference at BYU on the topic of the atonement. She was given 20 minutes for her talk LOL.

She asked for some suggestions pertaining to how the atonement interrelates to gospel law.

My brother and I referred her to section 88 and pointed out that it refers to three gospel laws, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial. Shortly after making reference to those three laws, that section specifically mentions Mercy, Justice & Judgment.

I speculated that those descriptives refer to and describe the three gospel different and distinct laws.

Much of the content in my “be ye therefore perfect” post is built around those concepts with emphasis on the celestial law aspect.

For me, the highest gospel law of Mercy and Grace represents a mystical process of becoming clean and perfect through God’s perfection, not our own works, and is not compatible with the multiple probations theory. Indeed, the essence of the fullness of the Gospel is in putting our faith in God’s righteousness to cleanse and transform us, instead of our own righteousness letter of the law works.

The concept of multiple probations makes a lot of sense to those that are focusing on the gospel of works and on becoming perfect through our own efforts, however, those that realize that it is through the mystical and merciful perfection of Christ and HIS righteousness that our fallen souls can be made perfect realize that multiple probations are not necessary and the doctrine marginalized Christ’s atonement.

I don’t think that it took Adam very long to get things right once the fulness of the gospel was preached to him because he relied on God’s perfection not his own works.

The works that saved him was his humble repentance and reception of the spiritual rebirth offered through Christ’s infinite sacrifice and atonement.

One of the most beautiful and revealing aspects of the gospel that was revealed through Joseph Smith is the account of Adam’s baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No treadmill or gospel of self improvement, or multiple probations necessary for him.

I think the reason it feels like a long grueling process to us is because the church we grew up in lives and teaches terrestrial law. We have not experienced the true, full mystical baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost that is described in the scriptures.

We have not experienced the spiritual download of comprehending all things within a split second of God’s grace like Moses experienced.

We have been fed a constant diet of the Stephen Covey- Tony Robbins type of Positive Mental Attitude and gospel of self improvement where all of the emphasis is directed on our own hard works where  the glory is directed at the human spirit and the human effort to excel. We work and work and work to gain an inch of self mastery over a long and grueling process of time.

you said: “It seems to me that God is content to let things go for the most part. letting people learn through experience, little by little.”

I agree that it feels that way now because we are living during the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham, not during the fulness. We are basically left with the letter of the law since the saints of the restoration rejected the spirit of the law and the fullness thereof

You feel that If there really are only certain times when the opportunity to ascend is provided, then there must be other chances for people to learn and try again.

I feel that way to.

But I don’t think multiple probations is the answer.

Multiple probations is fear based and works based and it does not give adequate credit to the mystical atonement and the mystical process of miraculously changing the natural man into a new creature through the power of the atonement instead of personal improvement.

The doctrine of multiple probations glorifies the natural mans ability to overcome adversity over time through the process of increasing in knowledge and hard work, instead of acknowledging that God’s supernatural power can instantly overcome adversity in a split second.

I suspect part of the answer is in all people physically returning to the earth during the final wrapping up scenes. Perhaps that is why the term “preparatory redemption” is used to refer even to those few people that appeared to be in a saved condition during this probation. It appears as if God’s work has not been completed and that there are still a few more surprises to be unfolded during the Marvelous Work and the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Perhaps God is going to provide a way for all of us that have come to this earth life to experience what everyone else in this earth existence has experienced during the last 6,000 years… by proxy with some kind of mystical download.

At any rate, i have come to the conclusion that the law of Mercy has more to do with submission to God’s will and putting off the natural man through the grace of Christ’s atonement, than personal improvement through hard work over the process of time.

Email Exchange #7

“One of the misconceptions among most of the LDS fringe groups is that God will one day FIX his broken apostate church”


One reason i enjoy reading your material is because you weave church history, especially early church history, into your scriptural analysis and interpretation.

I’ve learned things I’d never heard or considered before.  If I understand correctly, revelations from Joseph Smith had to be approved and recognized as such by the general body of the church before they became scriptural canon.

Did this practice continue after his death?

I believe BY still did it, albeit after the move west and only the more loyal faction of the saints were there to endorse it.

When did this practice end?

My Response

Your question presupposes that God continued giving revelation to the Brighamites to be canonized following the death of Joseph Smith.

It is my opinion that during the Nauvoo period, probably in 1841, the saints were rejected as a church with their dead.

God still acknowledges all of the remnants of the LDS restoration movement who believe the book of Mormon as remnants of his people, but following the rejection of the church with its dead, the fullness of the priesthood and the fullness of the saving ordinances had been removed out of their midst and God has hidden his face from the world.

One of the misconceptions among most of the LDS fringe groups is that God will one day FIX his broken apostate church (referring to the church organization that had been restored through Joseph Smith). Following that, the great work will continue to spring forth from the apostate church after it has been FIXED.

Many fundamentalists believe this.

I believe this is a lie that will cause many to stumble when the true servants return.

Bishop Koyle of Dream Mine fame falsely taught that Joseph Smith would one day return and make his appearance during an LDS general conference in which he would officially release all of the corrupt general authorities and institute men of God. In this manner Joseph Smith is to “set in order the house of God

After fixing the apostate church in said manner, the great work of restoration would continue from the fixed church .

I believe this false teaching comes from a misinterpretation of the following passage in Section 85

6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

You will notice from the above passages that the one mighty and strong (see also Isaiah 28) sets in order those whose names are found enrolled in the book of the law of God.

There is not one person living today whose name is found enrolled in the book of the law of God. This is because the law of God was rejected by the latter day saints during Joseph’s ministry along with the priesthood keys to live the law of consecration which is an integral part of the law of God.

The latter day saints are not living the law of God. Most have no clue what the law of God is.

The first thing God’s mighty and strong servant will do when he and his associates return is to restore the law of God upon the earth and invite everyone to repent and gather to Zion.

This will not be done through the apostate church although there may be some of the elect who will repent and gather out of the apostate church to accept and live the law of God when it is restored to the earth.

Prior to being rejected as a church in 1841, the restored church had been condemned in 1834, meaning that they had been censured, relieved of their priesthood keys, and sentenced to the punishment of being delivered over to Satan for a little season.

There is a big difference between being CONDEMNED vs. being REJECTED.

From the 1828 Websters the following words are defined thusly:


CONDEMNED, pp. Censures; pronounced to be wrong, guilty, worthless or forfeited; adjudged or sentenced to punishment.


1. The act of condemning; the judicial act of declaring one guilty, and dooming him to punishment.
For the judgment was by one to condemnation. Romans 5.
2. The state of being condemned.
Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation. Luke 23.
3. The cause or reason of a sentence of condemnation. John 3.

REJECT’ED, pp. Thrown away; cast off; refused; slighted.

Just as God cast ancient Israel out of his sight anciently, he has cast off the apostate latter day saints and turned his face from them and he has given them their delusions.

Everyone who is claiming that the church is still relevant in providing the saving ordinances or that it will once again provide the saving ordinances, is delusional. Those claiming that all of the spiritual gifts are still available including calling and election and the reception of the second comforter are delusional and deceived.



Notable Emails #32: “during the Messianic years, John the Baptist turned the hearts of the prophets to the Jews– but… he never turned the hearts of the Jews to the prophets!”


Notable Emails # 30 “I have to disagree to the credit you give to the LDS Church and saving ordinances. I do not see any saving ordinances, temple rites, secret signs or tokens as of any value.”

Notable Emails #29 “I enjoyed your post on Joseph Smith as the ‘Covenant Servant’ in Isaiah 42.. however..”

Notable Emails #28- “Why do we need prophets and apostles when they refer us to scholars for doctrine and church history understanding”Notable Emails #27 “what makes you so sure JS was not just a charlatan from the beginning?”

Noteable Emails #26 This and that, this and that, tell us how it is Hugh, we won’t look back!

Noteable Emails #25 “Can I ask you for some help with chapter 27 in 2 Nephi?”

Notable Emails #24 “I recently awoke or at least have begun to awaken. Since August I’m no longer blindly following the brethren and traditions of the church.”

Notable Emails #22 “My prediction is that those who accept the gospel of Bill Reel (non-literal historicity of the Book of Mormon) will ultimately either loose all of their faith…”

Notable Emails #21 ” I don’t believe the current LDS Church has ANY “authority” – especially BECAUSE they preach that the culmination of the Gospel is the Masonic Rituals..”

Notable Emails #19- “Sometime ago I had an extraordinary experience where I was forgiven of some of my sins”

 Notable Emails #18- “I wake up every morning with this intense feeling that we are getting closer”

 Notable Emails #17 “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.”

 Notable Emails #16 “the Lord wouldn’t give a young church such responsibility so early”

Notable Emails #15: “It would be so hard to do if we didn’t have the word crunching software available to us to use. Now I can see why so many are deceived. “

 Notable Emails #14 (b) “who was the legal heir and successor of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.?”

 Notable Emails #14 (a) “Baptism for the dead is illogical and pretty much impossible to ever accomplish”

 Notable Emails Part 13 “Gileadi compares the Servant to Hezekiah, in that he answered for the temporal sins of the people and acted as a proxy savior”

 Notable Emails Part 12 “the scriptures will become corrupted and deceive the elect and give Satan power”

 Notable Emails Part 9 “My number one desire right now is to protect my wife and honor her tender feelings about the gospel as she understands it.”

 Notable Emails Part 8 “Who are the Jews and Gentiles?

Notable Emails Part 7 “My eyes have been opened”

Notable Emails Part 6: “Can anyone tell me anything about this blog?… This guy seems to have some new ideas I’ve never heard before using the scriptures to back his views.

Notable Emails Part 5: “the truths that both you and I hold so dear …are things that cannot be taught they can only be revealed.”

Notable Emails- Part 4 “I have now caught the spirit of watching along with you and others.”

Notable Emails- Part 3 “Have you ever read ‘Letter to a CES Director?’” Yes… and it has strengthened my testimony!

Notable Emails- Part 2: “Readers deserve to know if you truly are a heretic or just a faithful divergent thinker”

Notable Emails Part 1- Mormon Missionary: “I too am watching”