Was Christ a Created Being?

June 21, 2019

[Was Christ a Created Being?]

ON December 1st 2018 I did a post titled “He Received Not of the Fulness at First: When did Jesus Christ BECOME the Son of God?”

In the post I made the outlandish suggestion that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things AND that he, himself was a created being.

I am sure that raised some eyebrows.

Recently I got comments from two people who have indigestion with the notion that Christ is a created being.

JN and Mike, thank you for providing thoughtful responses regarding this particular post and topic.

JN said:

“Hey Watcher, thanks for this blog post and all others. They always make me think and turn to the scriptures, so thank you!!!

I just reread this post because this topic has been on my mind. This is a tough subject with no easy answers. I have some ramblings I want to pass by you. If you have time, I’m super curious of your response… after much of my own searching I think I have to agree with biblical Christians that the Son was not and is not a created being; but, is coeternal with the Father.

Maybe I’m only seeing one side of the coin right now, but I see a many scriptures showing Christ as being from eternity to all eternity and that he is the Eternal God.

Mike said:

“JN, this is a puzzle to me as well… The Only Begotten was with the Father from the beginning and was the means by which all things were created. If Christ is a created being of God, He couldn’t have been created along with us on the 6th day. He was already there, doing all the work of creation on the previous days.

I think we can all agree that the mystery of Godliness/God and the full understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son will remain a mystery to each of us until God personally reveals Himself to us. Until Christ reveals himself to us, we cannot speak authoritatively on the topic, other than to quote scripture.

Even then it can be a messy business since we can interpret scripture differently as this exchange will demonstrate. According to the JST, Christ must reveal the Father to us and until then, we will obviously not fully comprehend who and what God is.

In the meantime, we have been commanded to search the scriptures and to meet often to discuss them (even meeting online to discuss them??)

I think that it behooves each of us to try and understand what information God has given us in the written word of God about his nature and character including the relationship between the Father and the Son, who are ONE God, although they clearly can and do manifest themselves independently as they see fit.

Each of us is trying to do this to the best of our ability and to the degree of personal revelation that we each enjoy during this time of hidden darkness. We all labor to understand the things of God during a dark time when God has turned his face from us. The Lord had told Moses that in the latter days he would scatter his people and hide his face from us-

Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them

This is why the Lord commanded the saints in Section 88 to “call upon me while I am near

This presents a challenge in discerning God’s written word even though God has not altogether withdrawn his spirit from us.

Gratefully, God has assured us that at the appointed time, he will once again turn is face toward us again and the light of the everlasting gospel will shine forth.

Regarding this controversial topic, allow me to reiterate some past observations in light of some new scriptural evidences not previously visited.

I have mentioned in a few of my posts that during my years of study and research, I have become converted to Biblical Christianity as the foundation of my belief in Christ and his atonement. It is my contention that most Mormons are not Biblical Christians and that the restored church has become corrupted and cult-like, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men.

I consider the Old and New Testaments to be the foundation of Christianity as well as the LDS restoration movement that the Lord conducted through Joseph Smith Jr..

I have found the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants to be congruent with the Bible as it is translated correctly, however, if I were to find discrepancies, I would have to go with the Bible (in its original inspired form) as the ultimate authority. I say this because it is the primary witness of Christ and his original apostles while the other books of scripture of the restoration are secondary witnesses of the gospel and the foundational truths contained in the Bible.

I take the same stance with the teachings of Joseph smith.

Any time he has taught something out of harmony with the true translation of Christ’s teachings in the Bible and other supporting scriptures, I roll with the Bible and supporting scriptures.

They are my rock when it comes to the written word of God.

Those that do not believe in the infallibility of modern prophets must ultimately come to this conclusion to avoid heresy. The words of living and recently living prophets take no precedence over the inspired words of ancient prophets. Truth does not change.

In my opinion, Joseph Smith was restoring Biblical Christianity up until about the end of 1834 when the fulness of the gospel was rejected by the gentiles of the LDS restoration.

I consider Joseph Smith to be the quintessential Biblical Christian and I believe God has provided critical new scripture through him that adds upon and magnifies the written word of God in the Bible and never contradicts it. Because of this, protestant biblical Christians are at a real disadvantage in understanding the nature and character of God and other doctrines.

Having said that, I think it is fair to say that some of the teachings attributed to Joseph Smith are not historically accurate. Further complicating things and necessitating the need for personal revelation, I believe Joseph Smith’s erred in doctrine during the dark years of Far West and Nauvoo.

I believe his calling as an intercessor eventually had caused his mind to be darkened because of his intercessory offering and the subsequent rejection of the gospel by latter day Israel. This caused him to eventually teach false doctrine about the nature of God and to contradict his earlier teachings as well as the scriptures he was instrumental in bringing forth. God the Father was never a mortal man.

All of this makes our study of gospel topics like this one challenging and requires us to look for multiple credible scriptural sources that testify of each other when determining which principles are valid. By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

I accept Lectures on Faith as scripture with regard to the doctrines taught in it.

I believe the JST provides some amazing clarifications and corrections to the bible, although it is not perfect and is not the Book of the Lamb of God that is yet to come forth.

JN and Mike-

While I appreciate your observations and concerns, and I think you have brought up some good points to ponder, I remain convinced that even though Christ has an eternal spirit that originally existed within the Father, and is now co-eternal with the Father as a member of the Godhead, enjoying the fulness of the Father, Christ did become the Son of God and transition from a spirit personage to a personage of tabernacle at some point.

In that sense, he was a created or, organized being which is one of the major differentiating characteristics between him as a distinct personage and the Father as a distinct personage.

Nevertheless, since the Father dwells in the physical personage of the Son and the Son dwells in the spiritual personage of the Father, they are ONE and Christ enjoys the fulness of the Father, which means that all of the attributes of the Father can now be attributed to him in their state of oneness. This is why it can be said, referring to Christ’s inherited fulness, that Christ has been God from eternity to eternity, from everlasting to everlasting, simply because the Father has been.

The Fulness of the Father

I accept this mind-blowing truth about the Godhead written by Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith in Lectures on Faith:

“There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing, and supreme, power over all things, by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space.

They are the Father and the Son — the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fulness, the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or rather man was formed after his likeness and in his image; he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fulness of the Father, or the same fulness with the Father.

Being begotten of him, and ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh, and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer; or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be.

But, notwithstanding all this, he kept the law of God, and remained without sin, showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin; and also, that by him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins.

And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme, power over all things; by whom all things were created and made that were created and made, and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one; the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness—filling all in all; the Son being filled with the fullness of the mind, glory, and power; or, in other words, the spirit, glory, and power, of the Father, possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father, which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments;

Truly, the Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power. The Son is a personage of tabernacle fashioned after the image of the Father.

Truly, the Father and Son share the same mind which is the Holy Spirit and Christ has been imbued with the same fulness as the Father and has inherited all that the father has.

With regard to the potential of mortal man who repents and accepts the gospel and keeps the commandments of God, here is the ending snippet of the above Lecture which informs us how man can become a son of God.

“..and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all; being filled with the fullness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.”

In my opinion, the supposition that the Father and the Son have both been co-existent for all eternity and that the Son has never changed and has always been a personage of tabernacle, is simply not congruent with the countless declarations that Christ is the Son of God.

What is the point of declaring Christ to be the Son of God if in fact he is not the Son of God?

An integral issue here has to do with the fact that the Father is “sovereign” and “self existent” and “without cause” and has never derived his power and glory from another God. This is what is meant when He declares that “there is no God beside me“.

(g)ods beneath him yes. (g)ods within him yes. But independent self existent sovereign (G)ods outside of his domain that are just like him and exist independent of him, NO!

.My contention is that all power originates with the Father and all other beings INCLUDING Christ, derive their power and glory from the Father. He is the originating and continuous power source from which all beings derive their power.

Christ was not ever sovereign and self existent nor was he without cause in becoming the Son of God. He derives his power and glory from God. This is one of the reasons for the declaration that he is a Son of God.

In the Beginning

One of the challenges when studying this topic is the scriptural concept of “in the beginning”.

It is easy to assume that some passages are saying that Christ has been the Son of God from the beginning of eternity, however I do not think that is what they are saying.

Many if not all of the passages that speak about Christ being in the beginning with the father are referring to the beginning of the creation of this “world” or “earth”, or the creation of all “worlds and earths”.

I am unaware of any scriptures that refer to the beginning of ETERNITY. That would be a contradiction in terms. Context is so important when interpreting scripture and building belief based on oxymorons is a slippery slope.

JN you have provided some good mental gyrations in dissecting the Greek translations to suggest that terms like “only begotten” and “first born” do not necessarily literally mean what we may think they mean in the English language, however, we cannot get around the declarations in modern revelation that Christ is indeed the “Son of God“.

What does it mean to be the Son of God?

I believe it inherently implies that Christ originates from the Father. Further, it inherently implies a beginning point of some kind regardless of what the exact process was or how it may differ from how a mortal father begets a mortal son.

I take those declarations of Christ’s Sonship to be evidence of a literal beginning point having to do with his state of Sonship and I don’t see how Christ can be the Son of God if he has always eternally been co-existent with the Father and self existent.

The very act of being a Son inherently implies an act of being begotten or created by a father.

Christ was the Beginning Creation of the Father

The Book of Revelation informs us that Christ is the “Amen” and the “beginning of the creation of God

14 And unto the servant of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Some translations of this verse state that Christ is “the beginning of God’s creations“. Some state that Christ is “the chief of God’s creation.

Edward Harwood’s translation of 1768 puts it; “The very first Being that the Deity called into existence.”

Although anyone can choose to interpret a passage differently, to me, Rev 3:14 is clearly identifying Christ as the first of God’s creations.

It is interestingly to note that In the 4th century, a major doctrinal controversy occurred in the church based on the question of whether Christ was a created being. A teacher from Alexandria named Arius believed and taught that the three persons of the trinity were not equally God, and that the Son of God was a created being. This resulted in a major council of church leaders, which became known as the Council of Nicea.

Since the fulness of the Father teaches that the Father shares his fulness with the Son, I do not agree with Arius, however, I think his supposition that Christ was a created being is on solid scriptural footing.

Paul seems to agree with John that Christ was the first of all creations:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

16 For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him

While we all agree with Paul that Christ created all other creatures, few people realize the subtle declaration of Paul in those verses, verifying that Christ is also a creature, or created being


1.    That which is created; every being besides the Creator, or every thing not self-existent. The sun, moon and stars; the earth, animals, plants, light, darkness, air, water, etc., are the creatures of God.

Additionally, another somewhat subtle declaration is made in Lectures on Faith wherein we are informed that Christ was MADE or FASHIONED like unto man and in the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father after whose image man was created!

The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;


FASH’IONED, participle passive Made; formed; shaped; fitted; adapted. made


Just because Christ was made, fashioned, created, does not mean that he is a finite being. He was an eternal spirit being before he was fashioned. It does not mean that he is not our divine creator. It does not mean that he is not now God by receiving the fulness of the Father.

Those that get indigestion about the possibility of Christ being created go to great lengths to challenge the terms “only begotten” and “first born” and “Son” and to suggest that maybe they don’t imply a creation point, but the truth is that when read contextually with other declarations from John and Paul, and the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham and modern revelation, they appear to mean just exactly what they say.

It is important to stress that Christ was never “self existent” as a God, rather, he like all other created beings, gets his power from the Father.

The Book of Moses reveals that the Father created all things through his Son. I believe that is largely why John refers to Christ as the chief creation of the Father.

Is the Book of Abraham is a valid inspired book of scripture?

I believe it is. (although I am going to share some very interesting research on this topic done by a reader of this blog in a future post)

I have found to much contextual support for it to be a fabrication.

It informs us chapter 3:21-2 that there were two types of beings in the pre-earthly council of this world. One of them is referred to as “organized intelligences” leaving us to deduct that the other type of beings were “unorganized intelligences“.

..I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

The very next passage appears to give the clarifying descriptives for “organized intelligences” and unorganized intelligences. They are referred to as “spirits” and “Souls

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Again, contextually, it appears as if unorganized intelligences are being referred to as spirits while organized intelligences are being referred to as souls.

Interestingly, the term soul varies between the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon sometimes treats the word soul synonymous with spirit while the Doctrine and Covenants defines soul as the joining together of a physical body and spirit.

Contextually, it becomes obvious to me that the Book of Abraham translation of soul is consistent with the D&C. It is differentiating and clarifying the declaration in the previous passage about organized intelligences vs. unorganized intelligences.

In light of the above passage, the following passage in the D&C that you believe to be speaking about two unrelated concepts, does in fact identify man as an intelligence

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

As we continue in the narrative from that same section (93) we learn that man is a “spirit” and that when clothed upon with physical “element” that is “inseparably connected“, a “fulness of joy” can be achieved:

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

Here we have another verifying witness that man is spirit and that when organized with element, we have the distinguishing characteristic between a spirit (unorganized intelligence) and a soul (an unorganized intelligence).

[Editorial Notes: As an interesting side note, it is implied in that passage that only celestial beings will be resurrected in an inseparably connected body composed of spirit and element resulting in a “fulness of joy“. This may explain why section 88 identifies those celestial spirits of the morning of the first being raised from death to be quickened and caught up, while those terrestrial inhabitants that come forth in the afternoon of the first resurrection remain on the earth to be judged according to “men in the flesh” with no mention of a final resurrection where their spirits and elements are inseparably connected for eternity. Indeed Section 76 informs us that the terrestrial spirits “are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness [of joy].!!]

According to an alleged statement from Joseph Smith, there are two types of beings in heaven, (the celestial kingdom) “spirits” of just men made perfect, [who are not yet resurrected, but inherit the same glory] and “angels“. That would be consistent with the spirits and souls spoken of in the pre-earth council in the book of Abraham.

As you can see, there are multiple scriptural witnesses that are consistent with regard to the concept of organized and unorganized intelligences.

JN your assumption that organized intelligences refers to the organizing of a council is not contextually congruent with the text in the Book of Abraham or the corresponding passages that I have documented.

The Old Testament is very clear about the Fact that God is the same yesterday today and forever and that he never changes. Yet by your own admission, the scriptures note that Christ was called the Son of God “because he received not the fulness at first“. Is that not depicting a changing being when, in fact God has told us that he changes not?

Clearly, he went through a change or transition that is not consistent with the characteristics that define the eternal God. He is referred to as God because he is infused with the fulness of the Father and therefore he becomes one with the Father legally claiming all of the divine attributes of the Father.

JN you quoted section 93 about Christ being called the son of God because he received not the fulness at first. You said:

D&C 93:14: 14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first. I see the connection of not having the “fulness at first” with its relation to condescending in the flesh and not in the preexistence. I agree that John was talking about the beginning before the world was, but I believe that shifts in verse 11 when he mentions Christ condescending coming down and dwelling in flesh.

Yet the Father refers to Christ being the Son before he condescended to go to earth:

1 And I, the LORD God, spake unto Moses, saying, That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning;

2 And he came before me, saying, Behold I; send me. I will be thy Son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost; and surely I will do it. Wherefore, give me thine honor.

3 But behold, my beloved Son, which was my beloved and chosen from the beginning, said unto me, Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

JN, I realize you are interpreting some of these passages differently than I do. However, I have provided in this response other scriptural evidences not previously discussed by me that provide additional context.

Again, we all see through a glass darkly at this time, and I don’t expect that we are going to agree on this topic. But I appreciate you and Mike bringing another interpretive perspective to the discussion and for the opportunity to explain why I see things differently than you do.

Until the servants return and we are all brought into a unity of the faith, keep watching.


Update on the Brazil Deception Part 4: Additional Information about the Brazil Gold Plates Movement

June 9, 2019

We are back from vacation. We had a wonderful time although my ebike broke 😦

In this post we will consider more of the problematic issues with the Mauricio Berger saga and we will continue reviewing more of the amazing details that Bob Moore has disclosed

Let’s review some really important observations that Bob Moore made in his initial response to my email to Tyler Crowell.

First of all, Mauricio had prophesied that the sealed portion would result in unity among those that believed in the Brazil Plates and the storyline presented by Mauricio about Moroni’s visit. However, just the opposite took place. Great contention and division followed among the witnesses and followers.

Secondly, Joseph F. Smith began organizing a church and calling apostles which was apparently outside of the instructions that had supposedly been given by Moroni. Strangely, Joseph F. Smith exercised his newly ordained position as a high priest (even though he has spent his life teaching people that there was not to be high priests in the church.)

Next, Bob noticed some inconsistencies in the instructions that Mauricio was sending to the American believers. Some of them blatantly contradicted scripture.

Another observation shared by Bob was the fact that Joseph’s plan to organize a new church was disrupting the branch that Bob and Brad were participating in.

Bob noted that when he began reading the translation, before it was even published, he could see discrepancies and that it was not of a divine origin.

On March 10, I believe that I was divinely instructed to research when Elasah traveled to Babylon as an ambassador for King Zedekiah.  During that trip, he took a letter from Jeremiah to the captives.  I discovered that Elasah went in the fourth year of Zedekiah’s reign, but the translation states that it was in the first year.  That proved to me that the translation is false.
I wrote my concerns to the witnesses on several occasions, but to no avail.  At the end of March, just after the translation was released, I posted my testimony concerning the translation.  I am attaching it, as well as two longer articles that are mentioned in my testimony.”

I will be making links to the documents made available by Bob in this series.

Bob also observed the uninspired instructions from Mauricio on what to name the new church:

“Joseph followed the instructions from Mauricio and named the new church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  Those instructions promised that the name was in the open domain and had been divinely preserved so Joseph could use it for the restructured church.  However, the Secretary of State for Missouri dissolved that corporation because it perpetrated fraud on the state.
This event is clear evidence to me that the instruction that Mauricio gave and which he said came from Moroni is false.”

All of this information is critical information for people to understand that are currently involved in this deception and for anyone else that is considering participation.

Notice one of the key observations that Bob made:


Worse yet, for me, was a statement that I had made while in Brazil printed in the translation in two places, both as if inserted and out of context with the surrounding narrative.  I had made that statement to Joseph several times in Mauricio’s presence.

The reason that I found this observation by Bob so interesting is because this is exactly what happened to me!

Mauricio has a tendency to observe other people’s observations and beliefs and then incorporate them into his fabricated text in the sealed portion. I think he does this thinking it will add to the credibility of his text in the mind of the person that the idea was taken from.

I want to now draw people’s attention to a prophetic speculation that I made in my blog back one June 10th 2018. In that post, I speculate that the book sealed with seven seals spoken of in the 5th Chapter of Revelation is the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, with six of the seals being hidden under the top seal.

After you read the snippet from my blog, read the snippet from the so-called sealed portion translation from Mauricio which was published in 2019.

mauricio 4

As you can see, Mauricio, or whoever did the fabrication, plagiarized the concept not only of the book sealed with seven seals being synonymous with or inside of the sealed record that Joseph Smith had, but even addressing the concept of six of the seals being covered over and hidden by a larger seal, explaining why the seven seals are never mentioned by Joseph Smith Jr. or any of the witnesses.

Is it just a coincidence that the concept from my blog shows up shortly afterwards in Mauricio’s translation?

I don’t think so.

It was a matter of public record that Mauricio has been a reader of my blog as demonstrated by the fact that Mauricio had directed Bob Moore to one of my blog posts to substantiate the fact that the sealed portion would come forth in multiple parts.

In an email Bob Moore had sent to me shortly after the Brazil movement began to emerge in America, he said. “He (Mauricio) gave me some instructions that he said were from the Holy Ghost.. He wanted me to study it..  I noticed on that blog that you discussed how the sealed portion would come in two parts.. He said that the Holy Spirit told him that the blog contained enlightening material..”

As you can see, Mauricio has a history of observing what various people say, and then uses that information to either conform his storyline, or imbed the information into his translation text.

He has done this with Bob Moore and myself.

It is quite apparent that Mauricio is simply making stuff up along the way as he integrates plagiarized concepts from others into his narrative. Similarly, when Joseph F. Smith noted some problematic parts of Mauricio’s translated text, Mauricio claimed that errors had been made when translating the translated text into English and then he corrected the text to make Joseph happy.

Woops. Moroni was not speaking to the Gentiles in Moroni 10!

Another major blunder I noticed as I was parsing through the supposed sealed Book of Mormon translated by Mauricio is found on pages 15-19.

According to the words of Moroni in Mauricio’s new translation, the Book of Mormon that was translated by Joseph Smith Jr., was “written unto the Gentiles and sealed again unto the Lord..” and this next portion brought forth by Mauricio is once again brought forth to the gentiles . The narrative informs us that we are living “in the last days, yea in the days of the gentiles“.

While directing his remarks to the gentiles, about the gentiles, Moroni declares-

and I exhort you again if God deems it prudent for you to read these records, if you have only the desire to understand the truth about them and from your heart meditate on their words, then I axhort you to ask God, the eternal Father, in the name of christ, if these things are not true, and if you ask with a sincere heart and with a true intention to know, having faith in Christ, then He ill manifest to yo the truth of them by the power of the Holy Spirit, for through the Holy Spirit you may know the truth of all things..”

Did you catch that? Moroni is telling the Gentiles that he is once again exhorting them with the same promise he gave them previously in Moroni 10 that Joseph Smith Jr. translated.

Just one very big problem with that.

Moroni was not speaking to or exhorting the Gentiles in Moroni 10. He was speaking to and exhorting his brethren the Lamanites:

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you [Lamanites].

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

How in the world could Moroni have forgotten who he was addressing in Moroni 10?

Obviously the counsel on how to divine the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is applicable to everyone, but that is not the point. The point is that the words of counsel and exhortation were literally being directed to the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, yet in Mauricio’s translation of the next part of the record, Moroni is claiming that the original exhortation given in Moroni 10 was directed to the Gentile!

Does Moroni have a bad memory? I don’t think so. I think it is Mauricio  (or his ghost writer) that has a bad memory.

But I digress.

In this part of the series I want to focus on the insider information provided by Bob Moore.

After I got the response from Bob Moore last week, I responded with a few more questions looking for further clarification on where he stands with regard to this Brazil Movement.

Here is what my email said:


Thank you for providing additional information to be considered by those not closely associated with the movement. It is my understanding that I am free to share the information you have given me in this and future emails and attachments in my blogs and podcasts although you are opting to not do a recorded and interview.

I have not yet read the attachments so forgive me if my current questions are answered more clearly in those.

I understand that you feel that instructions given by Mauricio from Moroni were not followed closely and properly

I understand that you feel that those involved in the movement have been continually buffeted by contention, accusations, and division which seems to have become somewhat of a pattern for groups who have attempted to unify in the past.

What is not clear to me is where you currently stand with regard to Mauricio, Moroni, and the validity of the plates.

It is difficult for me to entertain the comparison between previous splinter groups that have simply made attempts to reorganize efforts and unify, with the Brazil Plates movement since the claims of the Brazil movement involve the emergence of angels and the golden plates of the restoration movement of the 1800’s , etc.

Do you still maintain that the Plates are authentic?

Do you still maintain that Mauricio is a true servant of God called to bring forth the plates and the last great work?

Do you still feel that Joseph F. Smith is a descendent of Joseph Smith Jr who has been divinely appointed by God?

Do you accept the divine calling of this Chenery (sp??) woman who seems to have emerged as a divinely called high profile leader in the movement?

Did Joseph F. Smith ever call people to be apostles like he said he was going to and if so, do you accept that action?

If the answer is yes to any/all of those questions, it leaves me with cognitive dissonance since the prophetic written word of God does not inform us that God would make another attempt at his great last work of restoration and fail at it. Prophecy informs us that when God sets his HAND the second time to recover his people it will be successful and will unite the hearts of the elect.

I am baffled if you are still maintaining the validity of the plates and/or Maurcio’s divine calling after the crazy events and inconsistencies that have taken place.

BTW my email was put on an email list that you have recently responded to. It was placed on the list without my permission. I assume it was XXXX XXXX that put my name on it. I have never been associated with those people [on the list] and don’t know the vast majority of them.

My gut feeling is that many of the people on that list are more excited about creating community and starting any movement that seems viable than worrying about sound doctrine and checking the validity of the claims having to do with angels and plates. XXXX XXXX claims that he “believes all things” which enables him to participate in competing movements with conflicting beliefs. This mentality mystifies me and represents a gross misunderstanding of the original source from which the snippet comes from.

 Essentially it sounds like you are withdrawing participation from Mauricio’s movement because of contention and lack of cohesion rather than the fact that the work is fraudulent .

I thank you in advance for providing further clarification to the above questions.

Here is the response I got from Bob


I understand that what I write and send by email is in the open domain.  You have the right to quote from them.  Thank you for confirming that understanding.

I need to modify one point.  I wrote that Joseph enlarged the witness group in November 2018.  I need to add that he was following instructions that he received from Mauricio.

Mauricio gave several instructions that he said were from Moroni, some from the three visitors, and some from inspiration.  Two of the Brazilian witnesses earnestly counseled Joseph.  In my opinion, Joseph did not follow that counsel.  I also believe that he misinterpreted one statement in “Moroni’s Transcript,” which are also called the “Words of Moroni.”  I pointed out my concerns to Joseph and the witnesses.

The contention, accusations, and divisions that I mentioned refer to the actions of many people in the Restoration Branch Movement.  It is important to note that Mauricio testified to Joseph and me when we were in Brazil during October 2017 that our testimony concerning the plates would unite three groups: the Temple Lot Church, the Remnant Church, and the Restoration Branches.  I understood that the promised unification would happen before the translation was completed.  Others thought it would happen because of it.  I must also add that at that point, the translation was to be what turned out to be 42 plates.  What was printed is suppose to be only from 18 plates.  The rest was “lost.”

Since most of the American witnesses came from the Restoration Branch Movement and their primary testimony was to the three fellowships mentioned above, their testimony precipitated added contention and condemnations within that group.  However, contention and division also happened among the witnesses.  Those who remained in the translation study group after November could easily accuse Brad and me.  They stated such in the preface to the translation; but division also happened within the group that still supports the translation.

I understand your confusion about how the Brazilian episode fits into the other attempts to organize and unify splinter groups of the RLDS Church.  I am not sure my explanation will help.  Let it suffice for me to say that other groups claimed revelations and angelic visitations.  None claimed access to the Book of Mormon plates.

Now to answer your questions:

Do you still maintain that the Plates are authentic?

I have no explanation for the plates.  The plates are real and bespeak antiquity.  I doubt that they were forged, but I am no expert. They could be another set of ancient plates, but all this is conjecture.  I have no other explanation than what I said.  There is a slight possibility that they are the Book of Mormon plates, but it is inconceivable to me now.  If they are divine, they have been misused.

Do you still maintain that Mauricio is a true servant of God called to bring forth the plates and the last great work?

I believed Mauricio when he testified that angels appeared to him and that Moroni gave him the plates.  His subsequent actions, the words from Moroni, and his translation have proven his claims to not be true.  I need to add that in the beginning Mauricio said that he could receive no revelation for the saints in Zion, which I interpreted as meaning America.  I understood that he was called to translate the plates.  He also taught that disasters and war would befall America as Zion emerged, which would sever communication between him and the saints in Zion.  At that time, his task was to lead believers from South America through Central America to join the saints in Zion after it emerged.  I understood these factors were the limits of his prophetic ability, but that idea was only implied.

Do you still feel that Joseph F. Smith is a descendent of Joseph Smith Jr who has been divinely appointed by God?

I believe the unconditional promise given Joseph Smith, Jr. (D&C 107:18 RLDS and 124:58), “In thee, and in thy seed, shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.”  In keeping with that promise, I believe that Joseph Smith III was appointed to succeed his father and that Fred Smith, Israel Smith, W. W. Smith, and Wallace Smith were properly appointed and ordained as president and prophet.  Wallace Smith still holds that position, although he has laid down the mantle and said that he will not take it up again.  Like Wallace Smith, Joseph F. Smith is the great-grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr.  He has a right, if worthy, to either the office of president and prophet, or presiding patriarch, but he must he called by revelation through a previous prophet.  In my mind, as long as Wallace lives, the revelation must come through him.  It is possible and scripturally valid that Joseph Smith, Jr. could return (like Moroni did) and reorder the Restoration.

Do you accept the divine calling of this Chenery (sp??) woman who seems to have emerged as a divinely called high profile leader in the movement?

I know Bobbi Chinnery.  My wife saw her talking to Joseph after the March 31, 2018 meeting in which the witnesses testified about their experiences in Brazil.  We understood that her involvement with Joseph would cause problems.  When Joseph realized how she tried to manipulate him, she visited Mauricio.  I think that is why Mauricio added her to the study group.  I also heard that she received a calling through Mauricio, but I do not know what it is.  I do not think that Moroni visited Mauricio or authorized him to call or ordain anyone.  I do not recognize any of his ordinations.

Did Joseph F. Smith ever call people to be apostles like he said he was going to and if so, do you accept that action?

Joseph called and ordained apostles, I think seven.  I do not know who actually ordained whom.  I did not attend.  I do not believe that Joseph has authority to call or ordain any apostles and do not accept those ordinations.  Neither do I accept any re-ordinations that have happened (if any) in the Restructured Church.

Before closing, I would like to clarify why I withdrew from the effort of the witnesses to restructure the church.  These factors are in the order that they affected or confirmed my decision.

1. The Words of Moroni said, in my opinion, that a restructuring of the church should happen after unity is achieved.  After March 31, 2018, the emphasis was on restructuring the church instead of unity.

2. I am absolutely certain that forming another church structure will fail.  From a Restoration Branch Movement perspective, 9 previous attempts failed.  One was led by a descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr.  The Lord has not prospered any of them and I do not believe that the Lord will prosper this tenth one.

3. I do not believe that the Restoration begun by Joseph Smith, Jr. has failed and another restoration is needed.

4. I believe that both the Aaronic and Melchisedek priesthoods remain on earth, having properly descended by authorized priesthood ordaining others, thus forming an unbroken chain of authority back to Joseph and the angel.

5. The translation, in my opinion, is not of God.

Contention and lack of cohesion were not factors.  I do believe the Savior’s saying, “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt 7:29 IV, 7:20 KJ).  I also believe the revelation; “If ye are not one, ye are not mine” (D&C 38:6a RLDS, 38:27 LDS).  The fruit of the Restoration Branch Movement has been and continues to be rebellion and argumentation.  I participated in the contention and jarrings that have afflict it.  It must stop.  I have decided to cease and desist, not only within that group, but among all those who profess belief in the Restoration as begun by Joseph Smith, Jr.  Like the Anti Nephi-Lehis who feared that they might pick up their weapons of war unless they were buried, I have tried to limit my discussions about differences to only facts and not people; and in written form where possible.  I prefer to try to find points in common and work on developing relationships around common beliefs.

I hope that these clarifications are helpful.


Again, Bob has provided additional insider information and added some clarity as to what he currently believes regarding Maurico Berger, Joseph F. Smith, and the other witnesses and the Gold Plates.
Thank you for that Bob.
I have other contacts in Missouri that tell me that Joseph F. Smith has also arrived at the conclusion that Mauricio is not a true prophet and that his story is fabricated, however, this event has given Joseph a platform on which to establish his own power-base as a prophet so he is keeping a low profile with regard to how he feels about Mauricio and the translation.
Regarding Bob’s statement about Bobbi Chinnery-
“I know Bobbi Chinnery.  My wife saw her talking to Joseph after the March 31, 2018 meeting in which the witnesses testified about their experiences in Brazil.  We understood that her involvement with Joseph would cause problems.  When Joseph realized how she tried to manipulate him, she visited Mauricio.  I think that is why Mauricio added her to the study group..”

I appreciate Bob’s willingness to respond to questions. I don’t have many more simply because I think we have a pretty clear pictures of the major events of the movement.

It is my understanding from some of my other sources that Bobbi did in fact go to Brazil to visit Mauricio and his family for several weeks against the wishes and admonitions of Joseph F. Smith.

While there, she showered Mauricio with thousands of dollars and bought him a car.
I can only assume that her generosity was financed from the donations generated through the initial website that she and Joseph F. Smith made.

It is no wonder that Bobbi has been called to an important position within the new movement.

Mauricio, when you read this post, I have the following question for you. Do you plan on visiting America in the near future?

If so, could you please bring the money with you that you duped people out of? I suspect some of them would like to have it back


Here are the links to the three documents Bob Moore provided me in his email response for those that would like additional information.

Letter to Branch re Restructuring
Testimony of Bob Moore
Book of Moses- Bob Moore



Update on the Brazil Deception Part 3: Bob Moore Provides Clarity as to Where He Stands

June 4, 2019

I have been meaning to give another update on the Brazil Gold Plates Drama for sometime but had to many other things on my mind and some health issues to address.

Since I am leaving for a four day vacation tomorrow, I do not have time to do justice to this topic in just one blog post so I will begin with a portion of this update tonight and continue when I return from vacation or perhaps while on vacation.

John Pratt Challenges Denver Snuffer AGAIN

One bit of interesting news regarding this Brazil drama is that John Pratt, a high profile and highly regarded member of the Snufferite movement appears to have had somewhat of a revelatory parting of the ways with Denver Snuffer.

Pratt is a prolific LDS writer who writes primarily about sacred calendars. He has spoken at one of the Snuffer gatherings.

I surmise Pratt’s defection from the Snufferite movement based on the fact that Pratt appears to have converted over to the Brazil Plates movement, joining the likes of Jonathan Felt, Russell Y Anderson, and an LDS author that prefers to slither around in the background without publicly revealing what he really believes.

All of these folks appear to have been followers of Denver at some point in time. Perhaps some are taking a double-minded approach and participating in both groups.

Pratt has recently written an article in support of the claims made by Mauricio Berger.

Since Denver Snuffer has refused to endorse or embrace the claims of Mauricio Berger and since Mauricio Berger has failed to accept Snuffers innuendos that he is the Davidic servant of end times prophecy, both fringe movements that claim divine revelation are not in harmony with each other and cannot both be true.

Pratt’s conversion to Mauricio Berger’s movement places Snuffer between a rock and a hard spot. He is now officially damned if he supports the new fledgling movement from Brazil and damned if he doesn’t.

The last time Pratt took issue with Denver Snuffer, it was pertaining to the legitimacy of D&C 110.

After Denver Snuffer suggested to his flock that it was not a valid revelation and that the event never took place, Pratt used his mind numbing gyrations having to do with sacred calendars, constellations and Zodiac Ages to prove that it was a true revelation based on the date that the event took place. ( April 3rd 1836)

Because of Pratt’s huge popularity among the Snufferites, Denver was apparently concerned about being exposed as a false prophet resulting in a mass defection from his followers so he quickly produced a revelation from God altering much of the content of Section 110 as it was originally recorded in the D&C.

Denver’s new revelation (which can be read here) confirmed that a vision was received on that date by Joseph and Oliver in the Kirtland Temple behind the veil. The new revelation read similarly to the first half of what is in Section 110. However, the major alterations started in the second half which expunged the visits of Moses (to deliver the keys of the gathering of Israel), Elias (to deliver the keys of the Dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham) and Elijah (to declare that the time has fully come as spoken of by Malachi).

As per the new revelation, it was simply the accuracy of the details of the event contained in Section 110 that were at issue.

This revelatory maneuver enabled Denver to save face and for John Pratt to enjoy a prophetic endorsement of his article.. all without disrupting the Snufferite movement which is now struggling to recruit new followers.

It will be fun and fascinating to see how Denver responds to this new challenge from Pratt. Perhaps another authoritative revelation is in store!

An Unexpected Contact from Tyler Crowell

I was contacted by Tyler Crowell, one of the eight witnesses, on June 1st. This is what his email said

“Hello watcher

Would you like to have a conversation about the sealed book of Mormon?

Have you and your friends been able to study and pray concerning what is written?”

I assumed that Tyler was hoping that my views about the movement he was involved in had softened and was hoping for more publicity through my blog or a podcast.

My first response was as follows:


I’m on my way to my grandsons soccer game right now and will get back to you later but I am open to the possibility of perhaps recording a Skype session interview with you..

..Hope all is going well for you.

Talk to you later.

My next response was as follows:

I am back.

In answer to your question, I have the book and I have read a short portion of it but have not read the whole thing. It is very difficult and painful for me to read.

I find that when I begin reading God’s word in the true scriptures, I cannot put it down and I am filled with the spirit. Yet when I try to read the so-called sealed portion, I get bored and my mind wonders and I am filled with darkness.

 I have found a few serious problems with it.

One of them has to do with the fact that the person who fabricated it plagiarized a novel prophetic concept from my blog.

While I feel that the novel concept that I introduced may possibly be inspired and true, I am not flattered nor impressed that it is validated in Mauricio’s sealed portion.

I think that plagiarizing a prophetic speculation of mine was bad form and probably an attempt to appeal to my ego and get me to convert.

I remain more convinced than ever that you have been deceived.

Since my blog was the first that I am aware of to cover the story about the Brazil Plates and since some of the delusional followers of the Brazil movement came from my readership, I feel like I probably should do a follow up article which I am planning to do.

However, if you would like to be interviewed and to have an opportunity to bear your testimony and give an update on things from your perspective, and to point out any reasons why you think the published sealed portion of Mauricio’s is inspired, I would be willing to give you that platform. (providing that you have skype and that I can get it to work from my end. The only attempt I have done in recording a skype conversation did not produce a high quality sound recording and I am not sure why.)

Obviously, I would share my belief that the work is a fraud, but I would be a respectful and fair minded interviewer and would allow you to present your side of the story without interruption.

 If you do not feel good about the interview after it is done, I will not publish it for people to listen to, however it would either be published in its entirety or not at all, I would not be willing to edit anything out in order to get your ok to publish it.

If you truly feel that you are involved in God’s marvelous work, you should not feel intimidated at the opportunity to have an open discussion about it.

Since your movement is having a difficult time picking up traction, I think you would be wise to try to get more exposure. I continually get people coming to my site who are googling keywords having to do with the Brazil Plates movement.

Anyway, let me know if you would have any interest n doing the interview..

I have not heard back from Tyler. However, I copied Joseph F. Smith and Bob Moore when I replied to Tyler.

To my astonishment, I got a detailed reply from Bob Moore!

Here is what he said:

Dear Watcher

From my perspective, the witnesses who returned from Brazil in March 2018 did not follow the instructions that we received.  The primary source of those instructions, according to Mauricio, was a transcript of a lengthy set of instructions given by Moroni on January 17, 2017.  At that time, Mauricio said that Moroni told him to write Joseph F. Smith and invite him to come to Brazil.  Only a small portion of those words were sent to the witnesses.

When the 8 witnesses first gathered after our return in March 2018, there was disagreement.  It grew and by May I found myself in the minority.  The first Sunday in August I believed that if the witnesses did not resolve their differences before an upcoming event, division would occur.  I emailed my concerns.

Mauricio wrote the witnesses about some of the differences that were happening.  I interpreted those emails as support for many of my concerns, but those emails did not resolve any of the problems.  As Joseph began meetings that led to the organization of the church he now leads, I withdrew, believing that it violated the instruction that I mentioned above.  Joseph thought it fulfilled those instructions.  I understand why he thinks that way.

The deciding factor for me came about the first of November.  I had already seen some anachronisms in the instructions that Mauricio was sending.  What he sent in November was worse and contradicted scripture.

I had hoped that the witnesses could help me with the issues that I had with the instructions that Mauricio gave, but that did not happen.  When we met in November, we were to begin reading the translation, but I needed to resolve those issues before beginning that task and hoped that could be accomplished.

Unfortunately, Joseph had enlarged the group.  I could not bring up my concerns within that larger group without violating the confidential agreement that the witnesses had made.  The additional participants also contradicted (at least in my mind) the instructions that we received.  I withdrew from the group.  Brad Gault did, too.

Joseph’s plan to organize the new church was disrupting the branch that Brad and I attended.  We issued a joint statement about our concerns.  I am attaching a copy to this email.

I asked if I could read the translation while it was being printed.  They allowed it.  I read it from a screen during three sessions and took no notes.  That cursory reading clearly showed that the words were not divine.

I immediately noticed that parts of the Book of Moses were taken from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch.  I simply do not believe that angels had sex with women, as that spurious rendition of Enoch’s writings states.  There were other unscriptural teachings.

Worse yet, for me, was a statement that I had made while in Brazil printed in the translation in two places, both as if inserted and out of context with the surrounding narrative.  I had made that statement to Joseph several times in Mauricio’s presence.

On March 10, I believe that I was divinely instructed to research when Elasah traveled to Babylon as an ambassador for King Zedekiah.  During that trip, he took a letter from Jeremiah to the captives.

I discovered that Elasah went in the fourth year of Zedekiah’s reign, but the translation states that it was in the first year.  That proved to me that the translation is false.

I wrote my concerns to the witnesses on several occasions, but to no avail.  At the end of March, just after the translation was released, I posted my testimony concerning the translation.  I am attaching it, as well as two longer articles that are mentioned in my testimony.

Joseph followed the instructions from Mauricio and named the new church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  Those instructions promised that the name was in the open domain and had been divinely preserved so Joseph could use it for the restructured church.  However, the Secretary of State for Missouri dissolved that corporation because it perpetrated fraud on the state.

This event is clear evidence to me that the instruction that Mauricio gave and which he said came from Moroni is false.

I notified the witnesses.  One suggested that the reason was due to corporate law and not trademark law—that the name could still be used.  I have asked an official for the state of Missouri how I can obtain a more detailed explanation regarding the dissolution, but I just did that.

As I stated in my testimony, I believe that all the witnesses are honest men who are trying to do what they think is right.  The Restoration Branch movement, which came out of the RLDS Church, has been continually buffeted by contention, accusations, and division.

By my count, this new church that Joseph leads is the tenth one to emerge.  Most are defunct and those not are dying.  In the beginning, I believed that the testimony from Brazil was true and the needed catalyst to draw the saints together, at least those in the Restoration Branch movement.  It was a false hope.

I do not want to participate in the contention and accusations that grips the Restoration Branch Movement.  For that reason, I have chosen my words carefully.

Even with that caution, they may offend some who might complain that I have mischaracterized something.  Since I do not believe that I can exercise the same care in casual conversation, I do no wish to be interviewed.  I will, however, answer in writing any questions that you ask, if I can.  I will let the attached, this email, and any future emails suffice.

Thank you for asking.

I appreciate your forthrightness.


Many of us have desired to have clarity as to where Bob Moore stands and what the issues were that caused his name to be dropped as a witness.

I think the above email speaks for itself and provides a significant amount of additional detail.

I congratulate Bob for catching all of the discrepancies that he has observed and for having the intestinal fortitude to speak out about the discrepancies to the other witnesses, and for bringing these issues out in the open for the general public to consider.

Thank you Bob for your courage and integrity. I am sure this series of events has been very difficult for you.

Dear readers, if you think that email from Bob was interesting and informative, wait till you read the attachments that he sent me.

To be continued…

Keep Watching..  😉

Identifying and Correcting the False Traditions of our Fathers: #1 “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy”

May 23, 2019

The following declaration can be found on the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints:

We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed” (see D&C 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44).

The above declaration is a very bold claim of institutional church infallibility which is based on two “scriptures”.

The first “scripture’ cited is actually taken from a recorded vision that Joseph F. Smith claimed to have had on October 3, 1918. President Smith stated:

“..Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people…” Daniel 2:44

The revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that the Lord brought forth through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith makes no such claims. The above passage was canonized many years after the death of Joseph Smith.

According to the above citations given by the institutional church, the declaration of institutional infallibility is referring to the following passage in the Book of Daniel:

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:4

The above passage of scripture from the Book of Daniel does indeed state that God would set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed and that it shall break in pieces and consume all other worldly kingdoms.

The question is, did God’s latter day kingdom that is spoken of in Daniel actually begin rolling forth and breaking in pieces and consuming the kingdoms of the world back during Joseph Smith’s ministry?

Has the restored kingdom of God on earth been breaking down and consuming the kingdoms of the world ever since the restoration four generations ago?

Interestingly, the Lord addressed this topic and made an conditional promise to the saints regarding the above passage in February of 1834 .

5 But verily I say unto you, that I have decreed a decree which my people shall realize, inasmuch as they hearken from this very hour unto the counsel which I, the Lord their God, shall give unto them.

6 Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour.

7 And by hearkening to observe all the words which I, the Lord their God, shall speak unto them, they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet, and the earth is given unto the saints, to possess it forever and ever.

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. (D&C 103:5-10)

According to that conditional promise, beginning from that very hour, 185 years ago, either the saints would either begin to prevail over the kingdoms of the world, or the kingdoms of the world would begin to prevail over saints.

So which of those scenarios took place?

Was the restored church faithful in keeping the commandments and observing God’s words and thus, begin to prevail over the kingdoms of the world? Or did they become as the salt that has lost its savor?

One approach in answering this question would be to evaluate which of those scenarios actually took place based on the current state of affairs in the church and in the world.

Another would be to study the history of the church to see if the saints had collectively been faithful in obeying the commandments of the Lord.

However, there is an even easier and more definitive way to ascertain the answer. It is found in the Book of Daniel by doing a simple keyword search using the word “Prevail” that shows up in the above promise of the Lord.

Doing so takes us to the following prophecy in the Book of Daniel:

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Daniel 7: 21-22

According to the book of Daniel, the horn makes war with the saints and prevails over them until the Ancient of Days returns.

According to the book of Daniel, the kingdoms of the world would prevail over the saints of the latter days right up until the final events of the last days when the Ancient of Days returns. Clearly, the rolling forth of Gods kingdom does not take place until the Ancient of days returns.

Indeed the saints will be overcome by the kingdoms of the world when the Ancient of days comes into the Lord’s vineyard. It is AFTER the final work begins and the Ancient of Days returns that the kingdom of God goes forth in power and destroys the kingdoms of the world.

Is this scenario consistent with other prophesies about the last days?

Could it really be that we latter day saints are in a state of darkness despite the fact that we believe we are the most enlightened of all Christians?

The Old Testament is filled with ominous proclamations about the global apostasy of God’s people in the last days.

Isaiah makes the following observations about latter day and her leaders:

10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Isaiah 56:10-11

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Isaiah 28:8

Countless Old Testament prophesies observe that ancient and modern Israel refused to live the law of God

6 ¶ My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

Notice how the rejection of knowledge leads to the rejection of the Lord when he comes. That is the same sequential narrative given in Section 45. First, God’s people are blinded by the precepts of men. Because of this, they will reject the light when it shines forth.

Modern revelation confirms the fact that God’s people will be sitting in darkness and captivity when the light of the last great work shines forth.

And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

First, God’s people are overcome by darkness. Because of this, they will not accept the truth when it is presented to them again. They perceive not the light because they have been overcome by the precepts of men.

A contextual reading of the narrative reveals that the prophecy is speaking about the last generation, not Joseph Smith’s ministry.

And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die. D&C 45:28-32

According to the Joseph the Seer prophecy in 1 Nephi 3 and JST Gen 50, when God’s last great work begins, the saints will be in darkness.

God’s work-

shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom.

There we have yet another prophetic witness that the latter day saints are in a state of “hidden darkness” and “captivity” when the last great work begins.

According to those passages we latter day saints will be collectively sitting in darkness when the last great work begins even though the darkness is hidden and we are deceived into thinking that we are a highly enlightened people.

Will this darkness prevent us from recognizing the light when it breaks forth?

Will we be unable to perceive the light because of the “precepts of men“?

A keyword search of “precepts of men” leads us into the Book of Mormon where a scathing rebuke is directed at the latter day saints in 2nd Nephi 28:

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Mormon 8 also prophetically identifies the latter day saints as having perverted the true doctrines by transfiguring the holy word of God:

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Is it really possible that the saints of the restoration are so clearly being condemned by the very scriptures that Joseph Smith brought forth?

Notice how the Book of Mormon explains that the things revealed to the Brother of Jared will be withheld until the day when the Gentiles finally “repent of their iniquity” and become clean before the Lord:

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day. (Ether 4)

According to those passages, we are currently in a state of iniquity.

Latter day Saints that believe that all is well in Zion would do well to carefully and prayerfully study 2nd Nephi 28, Mormon 8, and Ether 4 as they provide a very sobering commentary on the state of the modern church.

But what about the New Testament Apostles? Are their prophetic statements congruent with the above passages in the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon?

Paraphrasing passages from the Old Testament, Paul make the following observation that a partial blindness would be upon Israel right up until the final fulness is ushered in when the deliverer will come forth out of Zion to take away the sins of God’s covenant people:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11)

The Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that latter day saints are members of the house of Israel. According to the above passage, Israel will be partially blind until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in for the last time.

In a visionary look at the latter day church, Paul exclaimed that they would not be able to endure sound doctrine:

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2nd Timothy 4)

We latter day saints have not been able to endure sound doctrine. We have truly been turned over to fables. Most of the so-called doctrine that is preached from the pulpits are really fables that originated from the precepts of men.

One of the more revealing prophecies in the New Testament is found in 2nd Peter 2 because it strongly implies that the latter day apostasy would be caused by “false teachers” that bring in “abominable heresies“. Because their followers would follow after their “pernicious ways“, “the truth shall be evil spoken of”.

1 …..even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in abominable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Other translations change “pernicious ways” to “sensuality“.

In other words, some of the abominable heresies of the false teachers have to do with corrupt doctrines relating to human sensuality. Could that be referring to the adulterous polygamous relationships that emerged in the restoration?

All of this may seem unfathomable to main-stream members of the church that have been indoctrinated to think that we are living at the time when God’s church can no longer go into apostasy. However there are revelatory warnings that have been covered up by the sanitized history of the church. One of them is the following warning from God that was given before the church was even formally organized:

Here is what God said in BofC 5:19 before the revelation was revised in 1835.

And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a reformation among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old.

And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I WILL DELIVER THEM UP UNTO SATAN, for he reigneth and hath power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation: and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them.

We have been delivered over to Satan

Stumbling Blocks

The Book of Mormon prophesies that when the final restoration takes place in word and POWER, God will take away our stumbling blocks if we will hearken to the Lamb of God:

1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—

One of the definitions of stumbling blocks is the preaching up unto ourselves of our own wisdom and learning instead of holding on to the iron rod of the word of God:

20 And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. 2 Nephi 26:20

We latter day saints have been overcome by false narratives that come from the precepts of men. When the Lord’s true servants return to the vineyard, they will put down all contentions and bring those of us that are repentant and teachable into a unity of the faith.

In preparation for this last great work, one of the most important things we can be doing is to search the scriptures and begin identifying and correcting the false teachings that the modern church has indoctrinated us with.

That is the purpose of this series.

Each new post within this series will highlight and expose a false doctrine that is currently being taught in the modern church. We will review how the false teaching creates a false context that prevents people from gaining further light and knowledge.

Keep watching

Identifying False Narratives that create Stumbling Blocks

May 21, 2019

In my opinion, the vast majority of the true foundational doctrines of the kingdom that came forth from the scriptures of the Latter day Saint restoration have been corrupted or completely discarded.

Additionally, new heretical precepts of men have been introduced into the church as binding doctrine. It is incredible that within four generations the doctrinal foundation that was initially established during Joseph Smith’s ministry has been compromised.

One of the many problems with the false narratives that the institutional church teaches is that is skews a person’s ability to accurately interpret scripture, prophecy and church history. False doctrine is one of the great stumbling blocks of the Latter day Saints that prevents them from gaining greater light.

One day while driving in the car, Mrs Watcher and I began creating a list of the false doctrines that we have identified over the years during our study of the scriptures. We came up with about 50 in about an hour of brainstorming. My guess is that there are easily over 200 significant false teachings that are currently being taught in the modern church.

I believe one of the most important things we can do in our scripture study to prepare ourselves to receive the light of the final restoration when it shines forth, is to identify the false doctrines and search out the true doctrines of the kingdom.

Within a week or two I will be doing a series in which many of the major false doctrines will be identified and expose by the holy word of God. If you have identified false doctrines during your gospel study that you think need to be exposed, please send me an email and I will include them in my series. onewhoiswatching [at] gmail dot com.

BTW, Episode 24 of the Ironrodpodcast has been posted. Searcher and MD and I had a lively discussion about this topic. I think you will enjoy listening to it.

Unstringing My Bow

March 30, 2019

Dear blogging and podcasting friends-

William M. Allred share the following reminiscence of a short lesson the Prophet Joseph Smith once gave:

“I have played ball with him many times in Nauvoo. He was preaching once, and he said it tried some of the pious folks to see him play ball with the boys. He then related a story of a certain prophet who was sitting under the shade of a tree amusing himself in some way, when a hunter came along with his bow and arrow, and reproved him.

The prophet asked him if he kept his bow strung up all the time. The hunter answered that he did not. The prophet asked why, and he said it would lose its elasticity if he did. The prophet said it was just so with his mind, he did not want it strung up all the time” (William M. Allred, in “Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith,”Juvenile Instructor, Aug. 1, 1892, 472).

I think we all need to unstring our bows from time to time.

I have decided it is time to unstring my bow for a season and address some health issues. I have decided to take a four week sabbatical from blogging and podcasting.

I am happy to announce that Searcher and MD are not going to miss a beat and they will continue with the podcast. If you have not listened to the latest podcast on the succession issue you are missing out.

I suspect that some of you may be experiencing some health challenges or perhaps have family or friends that have some health challenges. I am providing some youtubes below that I have found to be very informative, thought provoking and inspiring.


High Priesthood: Quick Quiz

March 19, 2019

Here is a short quiz for new readers of this blog-

Who was the first person of Joseph Smith’s dispensation to be ordained a high priest? Was it Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, or Sidney Rigdon?

If you guessed any of them, you are wrong.

Who was the Lord speaking about when he said “Many or called but few are chosen?”

If you guessed the newly ordained priesthood quorums of the early Kirtland era, you are wrong.

During a church priesthood meeting in the Kirtland area, a man weighing over 200 pounds that was sitting in the opening of a window was thrown across the room by an evil spirit. Do you remember the associated circumstances?

Is there a difference between the term “Church of God” and “Church of Christ”?

Does the apostleship represent the highest priesthood in the church?

When scriptures in the D&C use the term “endowment” it always refers to the outpouring of spiritual blessings and power from on high. The modern LDS church uses the term “temple endowment” in a much different way.

Here is the definition of “ritual”:

A ritual is a sequence of activities involving gestures, words, and objects, performed in a sequestered place, and performed according to set sequence. Rituals may be prescribed by the traditions of a community, including a religious community. Rituals are characterized but not defined by formalism, traditionalism, invariance, rule-governance, sacral symbolism, and performance.

When did the Melchizedek priesthood endowment take place?

The topic of Podcast #15 is on the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. It might just contain a few surprises for you.

It is now available at the link below-


During the discussion, a heated argument ensued and a fight broke out between me, MD, and Searcher.

It was ugly.

We have decided to discontinue the podcast

Just kidding