Essential Oldies but Goodies Part Eight: The War in Heaven did not take place in the pre-existence… and “first estate” means mortal probation.
In this part of the series of highlighting some of my past blogs and articles (primarily for the benefit of the newer readers of this blog) I am going to direct you attention to the post I did on the war in heaven and the fact that Satan and his minions DID come to a mortal probation.
The teaching by the modern corporate church that Satan never came to earth to get a body and that those that followed him also did not come to earth to get a body is easily proven false in the scriptures.
Another provocative article very closely related to it about the real definition of the term “second estate” can be found here.
Having directed you to those two oldies but goodies, I am now going to share some correspondence that I have been having with a friend who lives in the Denver area.
He is a mainstreamer although he claims that he agrees with a few of the things I have written.
We enjoy chatting about gospel topics from time to time.
He is a brilliant attorney who can still generate coherent thoughts with good logic despite having been trained in the schools of Babylon.
He is very knowledgeable in the scriptures.
He violently disagrees with my definition of “second estate“.
I love to be challenged on my doctrinal beliefs because it forces me to dig deep and revaluate my views. I never feel threatened about being wrong about something because I am much more interested in learning the truth than in proving I am right about something.
I openly admit that I am not always right in my doctrinal assessments and speculations and that I have been wrong before, and I admit that I am on a learning curve just like everyone else.
There have been times when my readers have been instrumental in helping change my views… (although precious few)
I think that having a lively discussion about doctrine is a good thing as long as nobody gets angry or personal.
Here is a portion of an email that he recently sent to me
Hey- I can’t remember if we ever talked about this – I am convinced that section 90 verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estatesand were cast out of heaven in the preexistence. ( actually meant to say 88: 24, 32-35)
While theoretically possible, I seriously doubt that that there are any sons of perdition created in this life. Example: Judas. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that would support him ever having been walking by “knowledge” or having sufficient light and knowledge to become a son of perdition. That status must have been obtained in the preexistence and he came to earth with it. Section 90 fully supports this.
I’d love to re-read what you wrote in your original opus all those years ago on that topic. You made a compelling case. Did you use/address section :24;32-35 there?
Did you ever blog about that subject?
Among other things It answers the otherwise troubling question why would Hitler and Charlie Manson types end up in a kingdom of glory? Answer: of course, they won’t.
It strikes me that might be a good blog series for you- revisit things you wrote in that first book in light of what you believe now – what has changed, how and why?Example: the doctrine that Adam was the Holy Ghost and Jesus acted in that role while Adam was on the earth.
This was my response:
Hey- I can’t remember if we ever talked about this – I am convinced that section 90 verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estatesand were cast out of heaven in the preexistence.
I suspect you are referring to section 76 not 90. ( I was wrong, he actually meant section 88, it is just a coincidence that section 76 also is speaking about SofP)
Have you read my post on what first and second estate actually means? You might find it interesting. I don’t think it means what the church has indoctrinated us to think it means. The first “estate” takes place on earth, not in heaven.
While theoretically possible, I seriously doubt that that there are any sons of perdition created in this life.
I can’t disagree… We are informed in the PofGP that Cain was a SofP from the pre-existence.
Example: Judas. There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that would support him ever having been walking by “knowledge” or having sufficient light and knowledge to become a son of perdition. That status must have been obtained in the preexistence and he came to earth with it.
Agreed that it is difficult to find any damning evidence that would suggest that Judas qualifies as a Son of Perdition. He did not seem to have deep knowledge and he was truly sorry for what he had done…. he even seems to have exercised the Old Testament law of blood atonement upon himself.
Seems like Peter was guilty of a greater sin when denying Christ.
The Judas thing has never made sense to me.
Interestingly modern revelation has Christ declaring that he would return with the twelve that we with him in his ministry…. would that not include Judas????
Example: the doctrine that Adam was the Holy Ghost and Jesus acted in that role while Adam was on the earth.
Yes I have certainly been on a learning curve that has continued non-stop to this present minute… I am continually having to revisit things I have been taught and taken for granted and then attempt to cleanse my mind of the bullshit I was taught in the church and from the gospel according to Brig.
Did you ever read my take on Joseph Smith’s claim that the Holy Ghost had a mortal probation?
I meant section 88. (Don’t know where the heck 90 came from.)
Please read the cited verses carefully.
They are truly Mind blowing and the most powerful scriptures yet that confirm your hypothesis that even those who were cast out of heaven and lost their first estate still had to come to earth and get bodies.
I think the church teaches (I was taught) the first estate is the spirit body and the second estate is the physical body.
This is nonsense. The scriptures (Jude 1 / Abr 3) are clear.
The first estate is the heavenly abode with the father (that some were cast out of and thus “lost”).
The second estate is this earthly abode that all but the sanctified will eventually lose.
The verses i cited in sec 88, properly understood, can now be added to Jude and Abraham in giving understanding of this marvelous and illuminating doctrine.
Can’t imagine who you could have concluded that he first estate is on this earth based on those scriptures.
I will reread your post but now that you’ve been taught true doctrine I’ll be looking for a retraction / amended version. 🙂
This was my response
I’ll wait until you have read the articles and eaten a little crow before commenting.
It is such a coincidence that the verses you quote also address the topic of the SofP in section 76!!!!
This was his reply
I read the two relevant links – thanks for sending. In “summary” (lol) – and with all due respect-
– Agree fully that everyone from (this earths) preexistence had to come to earth to get a body (that was an amazing insight you had – Your list of 6-7 scriptures that support it are awesome. I think you used those in your original book)
Sec 88 provides perhaps most compelling scriptural evidence of all on this – that should be added to that list IMO.
– disagree fully with your hypothesis on first and second estates. You are really reaching and “wresting” hard there IMHO! You are ignoring scriptures which are quite clear and common sensical and using journal quotes from all the Brighamites (undoubtedly from the dark Nauvoo period) to argue against the clear scriptural meaning!?
(Much of the “corrupting” of doctrine was done long before the “modern corporate church” arrived on the scene!) Also many of those quotes (including Smith diary) can just as easily be used to support my position.
Those who keep their second estate will be “added upon” – I suspect this means, among several other things, they inherit the second estate with the promised blessings of plan of salvation, ie, guarantee of a kingdom of glory, unlike those who lost their first estate (unless they become SofP which is virtually impossible for them, as already discussed).
Occum’s Razor Brother! The simple, concise doctrine I have taught “fits” perfect, makes logical sense and has far more SCRIPTURAL support.
I think you are also conflating the 1st / 2d estates doctrine with doctrine of demonic possession – two different things
– Consistent with the doctrine that everyone must come to earth to get a body, but taking it one step further, when read closely, section 88 also makes clear that everybody will be resurrected and get a body. That’s what being “quickened” is referring to. But the resurrected sons of perdition will inherit a kingdom that is not a kingdom of glory. Amazing!
You yourself quoted the BofM scripture (2 Nephi 9) in the link that says “ALL MEN” will be resurrected and become “immortal”! Of course! Makes sense, because Just as with coming to earth to get body in the first place, it is part of the fathers plan
I suppose you could be right that their spirits and bodies are subsequently “torn asunder” but can you provide any scriptural evidence? Are you sure that isn’t just hangover from false church teaching on this whole subject? Also that would make them less than “immortal”.
– disagree, don’t understand and don’t get your obsession with this idea that the war in heaven didn’t occur in the preexistence wherein Satan and his minions were kicked out of “spirit heaven” (1st estate) and sent to earth (spirit prison – for them) and also their second estate, which they will inhabit as pre-mortal spirits, mortal humans and post-mortal spirits, until eventually losing it when they are sent to their respective kingdoms of NON glory. Just as those who inherit Kingdoms of Glory other than the Celestial will also lose it.
(Fully agree that said war is continuing down here.)
BTW – I’d be careful about using the “touch me not” scripture since (a) it directly contradicts one of the other gospels (where resurrected Christ IS embraced) and (b) it’s a bad translation. The correct translation is “hold (keep/detain/delay) me not”, for I have not yet ascended …
With LOVE !
In reading the one post on the second estate I noticed how I might provide additional clarification. I made the following changes, I don’t see how you can disagree with that.
The most powerful part is from scripture, not from somebodies conjecture. ”
I believe that the following passages actually reveal the fact that the first ESTATE refers to our physical tangible bodies during mortal probation and that the second ESTATE refers to the physical body after it has been quickened and added upon with glory into an immortal body of element.
Look closely at the following passages:
“24..we will go down for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate [from that earthly probation] shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.”
There is a progression of thought in the above passages.
First, a physical earth must be made from MATERIALS.
So that those being sent can prove themselves during their FIRST ESTATE!
Just as the term “estate” has reference to a material possession in this life, it has a similar connotation in the above passage. the “first estate” is the first opportunity for a spirit body to be clothed with a physical element in an earthly body so that they can prove themselves.
I am not suggesting that there was no testing or taking of sides in the pre-existence prior to this life, (although it is difficult to prove there was) what I am suggesting is that the term ESTATE has application to the spirit body being clothed upon in mortality!
Amazing! It’s like we’re both looking at that old picture (you remember it) and one of us can only see a beautiful young lady and the other can only see an ugly old hag! Lol.
Let me recap-
1. We are in violent agreement that everyone who was in the heavenly preexistence for this world with the father had to come to earth and get a body. Even those who chose to follow Satan (Perdition) and got kicked out of heaven.
Also that the term “third part” does NOT mean 1/3, only that there were three “parts” (portions or groups) of spirits. Two parts stayed in heaven with God and one part got kicked out. That part could potentially be the largest of the three.
2. Per your post, you believe our first estate is the physical body we get here on earth. You have concluded this by interpreting the verses in Abraham leading up to where Satan’s followers are kicked out of heaven and lose their first estate as a chronological “progression of thought” and so, since the reference to losing the first estate is after the reference to the physical creation of the earth, it must needs be that that is the chronological order in which those events happened.
3. I believe the “first estate” refers to two things: a) a certain domain or place we lived in or inhabited prior to coming to this current domain or habitation (earth), and b) certain rights or privileges we had, that were associated with or “part and parcel” of being in that former estate or place.
This fits well with all the primary definitions of the word estate:
1: state; condition
2: socialstanding or rank, especially of a highorder
3: a social or politicalclass; specifically: one of the greatclasses (such as the nobility, the clergy, and the commons) formerlyvestedwithdistinct politicalpowers
4a : the degree, quality, nature, and extent of one’s interest in land or otherproperty
b (1) : possessions, property; especially: a person‘s property in land and tenementsa man of small estate
(2) : the assets and liabilitiesleft by a person at death
c : a landedpropertyusuallywith a largehouse on it
The thesaurus also lists as synonyms or related for “estate”: abode, domicile, dwelling, habitation, home, place.
4. The entire book of Jude is a marvelous disquisition on the topic of whether the Sons of Perdition (followers of Satan) from the preexistence came to earth, and goes hand in glove with the verses in sec 88 and the ones you listed in your post to prove beyond a doubt that the baddies that got kicked out of heaven STILL HAVE TO COME TO EARTH TO GET PHYSICAL BODIES.
5. The scripture in Abraham must be read together and in harmony with Jude – the only two scriptures that make specific reference to this term I believe. And Jude couldn’t be clearer:
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains”.
They lost their estate, (abode, dwelling, place) or habitation, when they were kicked out of their heavenly home!
What is truly fascinating is to go back to the original text by checking other translations of Jude. These show clearly that “first estate” connotes BOTH a habitation or dwelling place AND ALSO certain rights or privileges associated therewith! Check it out!
New International Version And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling–New Living Translation And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged.
English Standard Version And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, Berean Study Bible And the angels who did not stay within their own domain, but abandoned their proper dwelling,
Good News Translation Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place:
Holman Christian Standard Bible and He has kept, with eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day, the angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling. NET Bible You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence,
Many of these seem to be referring to some sort of special, privileged position or authority (eg, blessings of priesthood and/or gospel blessings??) that were associated with this first dwelling place!
In any event, clearly there is no support whatsoever for the first estate being a physical body in this, the primary text on the matter.
6. Leaving all the foregoing aside for a moment, there is another major hurdle you must cross – not to prove your argument – but simply for it to survive at all so you continue to tilt at this windmill!
We both agree that all these evil spirits come to earth and get bodies.
There are numerous scriptures that make clear that ALL men who live on this earth will be resurrected with mortal bodies.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Therefore, for your argument to survive at all (so you can address all the contrary points I have made above), you must prove from the scriptures that these resurrected immortal beings must have their souls “excruciatingly ripped from their bodies” (as I think you phrased it) after they are resurrected as immortal souls.
I think the amazing scriptures in sec 88 clearly teach, when read in light of those referenced above, what “outer darkness” really is!
It is nothing more nor less than a kingdom (actually, innumerable kingdoms) of darkness (ie, not a kingdom of light or glory) where resurrected immortals dwell!
They have suffered the second death, ie, living in a kingdom that is cut off from God the father, God the Son and God the HG,ie, a kingdom of darkness.
Sec 88 also makes clear what losing the Second Estate is. That’s what will happen to all but the Church of the Firstborn (who will inherit this second estate (habitation, domain, dwelling place, abode) where we now dwell, yea, even this very earth, as a Celestial kingdom to live in forever), when they are sent off to a kingdom of glory other than the Celestial, or, for those Sons of Perdition (because they knowingly and willingly chose to follow Perdition (Satan) out of our First Estate), to one of the innumerable kingdoms of darkness referred to in that section.
The following represents my last reply to him ( I am awaiting his response with baited breath… I will simply add it to this post when I get it if it has merit. You will simply need to refresh this page to see it. (not your email, you will need to log into the blog and refresh to see it.)
BTW does it really even matter who is right in this speculative topic???? probably not with regard to our personal salvation, but it is an important piece of the puzzle as far as understanding the plan of salvation)
“violent agreement” ?!?! LOL what an interesting term.
Did you mean to say “violent disagreement”?
You previously said
“I am convinced that section  verses 24; 32-35 are referring to the sons of perdition, ie, those who lost their first estates and were cast out of heaven in the preexistence.”
Are you aware of any scriptures that state that the war in heaven took place in the pre-existence? I have already proven that the war in heaven spoken of in section 76 was apparently a future event and that there is strong reason to believe that the first war in heaven may have taken place in NT times with Christ seeing Satan being cast down)
The book of Abraham does not support that conclusion… just the opposite.
Is that one of the sanitized doctrines that you are holding onto?
The scriptures seem to indicate that Satan’s work of deception began in the Garden of Eden…. Indeed there is strong evidence to suggest that Satan began as an “anointed cherub” who may have been guarding Eden “before there was iniquity found in him” See Ezek 28
Indeed, if you accept the literalness of the existence of Job and his trials and lamentations, Satan was in heaven with the father having a reciprocal relationship with him in doing his work of testing us…. Satan does not appear to have been kicked out of heaven prior to Jobs time in Old Testament times.
Are you aware that Satan, as an angel of light is the one who was guarding the garden of Eden and the is why he was able to influence Adam and Eve?
Here is an interesting statement by Joseph Smith that, in my opinion, shows that he interpreted the scriptural term “habitation” to mean physical bodies or “tabernacles“.
habitation = body or tabernacle
“The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and receivedtabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men.”13
I agree with you that we are each seeing the picture differently and I have no doubt that the above snippet will somehow provide further evidence for how you are seeing things .
Now let’s dissect section 88 which has given you such a powerful epiphany, to see where we differ.
Verses 24-27 gives us some keys having to do with the eternal laws which govern in eternity.
One nugget of truth is that those that cannot abide the lowest kingdom of glory (telestial) must inherit a kingdom without glory.
The second nugget of truth is that the earth that we dwell on which has been made of tangible material substance, will go through a plan of salvation and will ultimately abide a celestial law. It will die and then be sanctified and glorified and quickened by celestial law.
The third nugget of truth is that those people who live on the earth and also abide a celestial law, will also be glorified and quickened by celestial law and live on the earth
Forth: Interestingly, the glorified body that the righteous inherit, is referred to as a “spiritual body” even though we have been indoctrinated to use terms that reflect the physical attributes of a “resurrected” body. That is noteworthy in my opinion because I am not convinced that resurrection necessarily means what we have been taught, nor am I convinced that the term is always used consistently in scripture. there is even a passage in the Book of Mormon where a prophet acknowledge that he is not sure if resurrection is the appropriate term to describe what he is trying to describe.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
Ok, on to verse 28 is one of my favorite predestination scriptures.
It informs us that when God took unorganized spirit intelligences and organized them, he took those spirits from differing parts of the eternal universe. Some came from darkness, having no light and glory, some came from a telestial sphere of glory and law, some from a terrestrial sphere of glory and law and some of the spirit intelligences came from a celestial sphere of glory and law.
When these preexistent spirit intellegences were spiritually organized and come to earth and are clothed upon with a physical body, they will ultimately live the law from the sphere from which their unorganized spirits were originally taken from because that is their spiritual potentiality.
Each of the 144,000 high priests who are the elect of God can trace their spiritual genetics back to the celestial sphere of existence from which they originally came.
After they have gone through their refiners fire of the mortal probation and lived celestial law, they die and then will be quickened by a celestial glory.
The scripture also informs us that they will receive their earthly bodies but they will be quickened. A key to understanding what a quickened body is, has already been given in a previous verse…. it is referred as a “spiritual body”
The best example I can think of having to do with a tangible/spiritual body is Christ mystically dematerializing and entering the upper chamber through the locked door so that he can let them feel his physical hands.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
The next passage of scripture informs us that the resurrection seems to be a process of glorification rather than an instantaneous one. In other words. Celestial spirits will initially be resurrected with a “portion” of a celestial glory and will eventually receive a fulness of it. No time frame is given in which this process will take place of completion… is it during the millennium? .
The same is true of the other laws and glories.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
This next few verse is a good example of where you and I may disagree.
I have studied the term resurrection at length and it is a messy topic. It is not as clear-cut as the sanitized church would have us believe. Sometimes it appears to mean coming forth to be judged… etc. Other times it does mean a tangible but spiritual body….
We learn from the following verses that those who cannot live one of the three laws of glory are returned to where they came from and they have not received the “gift” that they were offered.
It is true that they are temporarily quickened because they must be in order to stand at the judgment, however, after that, they are returned to their own place because they were not willing to receive a law or glory.
Arguably, they do not enjoy a physical habitation (body) throughout eternity nor would there be any reason to have one.
If you want to believe that they have a body that is fine, but I cannot find conclusive evidence to suggest that they do or that it would be of any consequence in a kingdom of darkness.
I am not saying they do or they don’t, I just don’t know.
At this point I find there to be a lack of evidence for it. I find it interesting how verses 96-98 of the same section are very clear about the celestial spirits being quickened and verse 99 is very clear about the terlestials being judged “according to men in the flesh”.
Both of those two groups are clearly resurrected in some kind of tangle bodies.
Verse 100 and 101 seem to inform us that the telestial spirits don’t come forth until after the 1,000 years of therapy… and then there is no explanation of how they come forth, but their judgment and emergennce is clearly different from the first two groups and should not be comfused with them…. . I suspect they do have some sort of quickened body of telestial glory.
HOWEVER verse 102 informs us that the Sons of Perdition will REMAIN FILTHY STILL That does not seem to indicate that they have in anyway improved their situation from the pre-existence, Indeed the Savior uses terms like it would have been better to have never been born, etc.
Is a resurrected body an improvement over their previous state? Is so, the passage does not seem to acknowledge it.
Now back to the earlier part of secion 88 and verses 32-35 which has had a great impact on your thinking…
Having already reviewed verse 102, we can read the following passages with even greater clarity. Verse 32 informs us that those who REMAIN shall be quickened.
You are apparently assuming that they are enjoying an eternal quickening that improves their situation from the pre-existence.
I would suggest that they are temporarily quickened so that they can stand in the presence of God to be judged and condemed for eternity…. following that they are returned to outer darkness from whence they came.
Returning to their own place because they were not willing to receive the gift of salvation is hardly a step upward.
The passages inform us that those that are governed by law can be preserved and sanctified and perfected by law.
They cannot be sanctified by mercy, (Celestial Law) justice (Terrestial Law) , nor judgment (Telestial Law)
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.
34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.