You Heard About it First From the Watcher.. LOL
I first published a blog titled “Did the Marvelous Work Begin on April 6th 2007?” informing my readers about this event on October 31st.
On November 1st I published a follow up post on the topic because of the amount of interest the first blog gendered. In it I invited my readership to share their feelings and opinions about the testimonies of Elder Smith and Seventy Moore, promising to publish them on a future post.
On November 4th I published a post titled “Weighed in the Balance: The Claims of Mauricio” In it I briefly summarized some of the views of the leaders of the movement and catalogued the comments that had been sent in from my readers up to that point in time.
In this post, I am providing virtually all of the comments made by all of the respondents.
I typically get about a 10% response from readers when I ask for feedback on something. This exercise was not different. Out of about 200 subscribers, I have 22 respondents.
I want to thank everyone who took the time to respond.
In the final post of this series I will share my own opinion About the claims of Mauricio Berger with scriptures to support it.
Hopefully this will be an Exercise in Sobriety
One of the things that all of the commenters have in common is belief in LDS restoration movement and the coming forth of his Marvelous Work. We have all been anxiously waiting and watching for the events of the Lord’s coming as we have been admonished to do in scripture.
While it is a good thing to be waiting and watching, as the scriptures admonish us to be, the yearning inside for an anxiously anticipated event to happen can sometimes affect our judgment. That is something we need to be cautious about.
Another thing to be cautious about is if we have an expectation of how we think things will play out that is set in stone, we may be overly critical of a work that the Lord is overseeing. Just because we are familiar with the prophecies, does not mean that we understand them fully.
Realizing that most of the responders have been studying and pondering the scriptures and the history of the church for many years and have an above average understanding of the Marvelous Work that they have been anticipating, it should by sobering to all of us to see that there is no consensus as to whether these claims are true or not.
The vast majority of the responders, regardless of whether they have represented themselves as skeptics or believers, are still pondering and searching and have not reached a final decision on this matter.
I believe there is much we can all learn from this exercise.
Keeping My Ear to the Ground
You may have wondered how in the world I found out about a somewhat obscure meeting held in Independence MO within just hours of it being held.
Particularly when I was not even familiar with the RLDS faction that it took place among.
I have some dear friends that live in Missouri who have been patiently watching and waiting for the Marvelous Work to began nearly as long as we have. They somehow heard about the meeting and attended the evening session wherein the testimony of Seventy Bob Moore was given.
The wife of this couple is the one that contacted me by email. She is listed as respondent #1 in the listing of opinions that I will be providing in this post.
Interestingly, even though she initially seemed somewhat excited and hopeful, after pondering things over through the lens of modern revelation, she has since rejected the viability of Mauricio’s claims. Nevertheless, to my surprise, the larger portion of respondents from my blog readers seem to be embracing the claims as being true.
The Testimony is Going Viral
Prior to Elder Smith giving this testimony, the average number of views on the video channel of the Zarahemla Branch fluctuated between 30 and 60, with about 60 official followers. Nearly two weeks later, there have been over about 8,000 views!
Even though news of the testimony is going viral, acceptance of it among the differing factions of the RLDS branches seems to be struggling to gain any serious traction thus far from what I can gather. This is not surprising given the enmity that has existed because of differing interpretations on doctrine.
Besides, familiarity breads contempt.
I would guess that the percentage of believers among my readers is significantly higher than the percentage of believers among the RLDS factions in Missouri.
An Attempt to Not Prejudice You
By the time I got through listening to the testimonies of Elder Joseph Smith and Seventy Bob Moore, I had formulated a very strong opinion about the prophetic viability of the narrative they shared.
I began preparing a post to inform my readers about this most interesting and timely current event and share my opinion about the claims being made. However, that little voice inside my head told me to hold back my opinion and allow my readers to listen to the testimonies, evaluate them, and openly share their opinions BEFORE I present my conclusions.
This is what I have tried to do, even though my views should be obvious to my long time readers.
The Results are In
“Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.” Isaiah 41:21
“Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.” D&C 78:8
As promised, I am now going to share the results of the survey I took regarding what I am going to call, for lack of a better term “The Claims of Mauricio Berger“.
This is going to be a long post because I am sharing the feedback of 22 people.
Although some of their remarks are short and to the point, some of their comments are long, involving multiple email exchanges.
Some of the emails will not make total sense because they are referencing some of my email responses to them which I do not want to post, for purposes of trying to save my own opinions and reasoning for the final post.
Realizing that some of my readers are not invested in this event enough to labor through all of the comments, I am going to first provide a chart that places the opinions of each respondent in one of three categories.
In the chart below I have assigned a number to each commenter to provide anonymity and to show the order in which the comments came in.
In the chart, the M and F refer to the gender of the commenter.
The asterisk represents those who seemed to change their opinion or fluctuate widely in their opinion.
The word “Correspondence” identifies those that have personally made contact with Elder Smith, or Seventy Moore, or one of the leaders of the Zarahemla Branch. I suspect that some of my commenters have offered financial assistance while others that speak the language have offered to go to Brazil as interpreters.
It would not surprise me at all if one or two of my readers were to become one of the additional six witnesses that are to be called to visit Brazil and meet Mauricio and see the plates.
Obviously, the “not sure but hopeful” category covers a very broad spectrum.
At one end of the spectrum are those that mostly believe but are still processing the information and waiting for additional information and confirmation before they fully commit as a believer.
At the other end of the spectrum there are those that are very skeptical but cannot bring themselves to completely deny it.
I want to apologize in advance for any mistakes and misrepresentation I may have made in cataloguing your comments.
I have tried to remove all names to provide anonymity and have taken the liberty of editing some of the emails when sensitive information was involved.
Group Decision Making
I am providing this feedback from respondents because I think it is informative and might be helpful to those who are trying to sort all of this out.
Some of the responders shared opinions that seemed to be based solely on “feelings” they got when they shared their testimonies, others backed up their opinions with scripture.
Years ago, Mrs Watcher shared an experience that she had trying to discern the truthfulness of something without studying it out first in God’s holy word. The experience was quite frightening and sobering. If you have not read her story, I would encourage you to do so.
As you can see from the chart above, a clear consensus has not been reached nor would it make any difference if one had been made. The ability to discern the Lord’s work should never be left up to others. We must all stand or fall on our own ability top receive personal revelation. Discerning the truth for an individual has never been a democratic process
Democracy is not how revelation works.
I took a course on “group decision making” during the short time I was in college and it was fascinating to see the dynamic and associated challenges of trying to reach a group consensus. Just ask the Snufferites who are experiencing the frustrating challenge of making group decisions.
During the LDS restoration, the process ordained by God was for the Lord to give council and instructions through his designated prophet. Once the revelation was received and made public, the primary purpose of the vote of common consent, in my opinion, was-
1) to provide a checks and balances method of identifying a false revelation, and
2) to bind the saints and make them accountable once they raised their hands in support of the revelation and any counsel and instructions contained therein.
The Sincerity and honesty of Elder Smith
and Seventy Moore has not been Challenged
It is interesting that most of the respondents believe that Smith and Moore are sincere and honest people who truly believe what they are saying. It is generally believed that the trip did take place, Mauricio does exist, and the artifacts in question were seen and held.
Just a quick note to share a link with you guys.
This is a link to two meetings held at the Zarahemla Branch Church in Independence, MO Sunday October, 29, 2017.
We were notified of the evening meeting late in the afternoon and made the trip to Independence to hear the details of a report of Joseph Smith, a descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr. and Bob Moore, of their recent trip to Brazil.
A report that entails a visit from the angel Moroni, the Gold Plates, the Interpreters and the sword of Laban.
Thought you would find this an interesting listen. We haven’t listened to the morning meeting yet but it is in our plans when Steven finishes the cold frames in the Greenhouse as it will be very cold tonight.
We love you guys and pray that God is watching over you and your family while you are watching and waiting for the Third Watch Marvelous Work!
Your fellow watchers & waiters
Follow up email
I have been giving a great deal of thought and made it a matter of prayer, about this new information that has been delivered by Joseph Smith & Bob Moore.. I applaud the humility & sincerity of Joseph Smith & brother Bob Moore in witnessing what they experienced in Brazil and what they have been instructed to do.
However, the Spirit has previously witnessed to me through the scriptures that Joseph Smith, Jr. holds the keys of the kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fullness of times.(D& C 27:13)
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;
And in D& C 90:2 (speaking to Joseph Smith, Jr.)
2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time. 3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;
Also in JST Genesis 50: 7-33 The lord speaks of a choice seer, in the last days, that will be raised up who shall be like unto Moses. who will bring forth the word and then secondly to convince them of the word which shall have already gone forth among them..
vs. 30. And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;
31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.
33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.
D& C 101: 43-61 Sets forth the parable of the vineyard, where in The Lord’s Servant is given specific instructions concerning the redemption of Zion.
43. And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.
44. A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land….
55. And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants…5
6. And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; …
61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you…a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom…and after many days all things were fulfilled.
In D& C 103: Joseph Smith, Jr. is identified by the Lord as the servant of the vineyard in the previous parable.
13…your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down…
14. Behold I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16. Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17. For ye are the children of Isarel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched out arm.
18. And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
21. Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun. is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.
In addition to these scriptures in D& C 29 (which was given to Joseph Smith, Jr. and six elders) They were given the charge to gather the elect.
7. and ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine, elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;
8 Wherefore the decree hath gone forth from the Father that they shall be gathered in unto one place upon the face of this land, to prepare their hearts and be prepared in all thins against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked. ….
10. For the hour is nigh, and that which was spoken by mine apostles must be fulfilled; for as they spoke so shall it come to pass;
For some people this may all seem a mute point since Joseph Smith, Jr. was killed on June 27,1844. But, the spirit has witnessed to me that Joseph Smith, Jr. will be raised up to complete the work that God has given him to do.
He laid the foundation of the gospel, translated the Book of Mormon, brought forth many revelations from the Lord, identified where Zion would be built and revealed what would be required to establish Zion.
We read of angels coming to visit the earth to assist with the marvelous work in the last days. I believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. will be one of the chief among them. (See D& C 103:11-21)
11 But verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances, and shall build up the waste places of Zion.
12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing.
13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.
14 Nevertheless, if they pollute their inheritances they shall be thrown down; for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances.
15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.
20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.
21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.
So, I am looking for the return of the early saints as well as the return of Joseph Smith, Jr. to be restored to their lands which were purchased in Jackson County Missouri. For Joseph to lead the redemption of Zion by Power and a stretched out arm.
My heart yearns for Zion, to be established in the heartland of America, in the state of Missouri, as God has instructed. I for one know that God did not make a mistake, he did not change his mind about Joseph Smith. And all that God has promised will be fulfilled concerning Joseph Smith, Jr. Even if that means raising him up from the grave!!!!
Therefore, I can not put my support behind Brother Joseph Smith, the descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr. in this work to bring forth the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, in Brazil.
I do agree wholeheartedly that we here in America have a great need to repent! That there are many humble people throughout the world who are seeking to do the will of the Lord.
All the true in heart will be gathered to Zion. But, I also feel that Satan is working over time to thwart the work of God. He is the great deceiver.
I wish that all of this information coming forth about the angel Moroni, the plates, the interpreters, and the sword of Laban were true.
So, much of it rings true because we are waiting for additional scripture to be revealed, and for the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon to be translated, and for the establishment of Zion.
But, in order to support this work I would have to deny what the Holy Spirit has witnessed to me, concerning the prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. and the keys and work that has been given to him.
There is also the priesthood authority question that looms huge for me as well. According to D&C 124:28 the Lord makes it clear that the Saints had lost the fullness of the priesthood. (by 1841)
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
In order for the Priesthood to be restored the Saints were given the charge to build the Nauvoo Temple and the Nauvoo House, within the time given them. If they would do it, then their baptisms, washings & annointings would be acceptable to the Lord and they would not be moved out of their place.
29 For a baptismal font there is not upon the earth, that they, my saints, may be baptized for those who are dead—
30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me.
31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;
34 For therein are the keys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.
35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.
36 For it is ordained that in Zion, and in her stakes, and in Jerusalem, those places which I have appointed for refuge, shall be the places for your baptisms for your dead.
37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?
38 For, for this cause I commanded Moses that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness, and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
According to my understanding of these scriptures and of history. They were moved out of their place, driven out of Nauvoo, because they failed to live the Law of Consecration, build the temple & the Nauvoo House.
The fulness of the Priesthood was not restored at that time and there has been no subsequent revelation of its restoration, . and the prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr. was taken out of their midst. As was the case with the children of Israel when they failed to come into the presence of God and become His people.
Moses was taken out of their midst, and they were left to wander in the wilderness until the unbelieving generation had all died off.
Moses appeared to Joseph and restored priesthood keys to him, as recorded in the D&C:11
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
So, I must continue to watch and wait for The Lord’s Servant of the Vineyard, for the one Like unto Moses, the bearer of the keys of the kingdom, whose right it is to redeem Zion!
May God grant us all the righteous desires of our hearts and may he cover us all with the mantle of Charity that His Spirit can work on our hearts and minds and bring us to a state of one heartedness and one mindedness. That we may all meet one day in Zion!
A humble, hopeful, follower of Christ!
Respondent #2 (Five Emails)
O my, Watcher, you received this on the day after the message was delivered? If so, that is astounding. Your watching is paying off!
I know of this group. Bob Moore is one I know because in the 1980’s my mother sent me dozens and maybe hundreds of teaching tapes about the restoration groups especially as we separated from the CoC.
Funny, but I’ve been investigating a possible move to the Independence Mo. area and to the Blue Springs city, where the Zarahemla Restoration branch is located.
I have listened to Joseph Smith’s presentation and am listening to the evening discussion now. This is stunning in the scope of the claim and the facts of seeing and handling the gold plates, the sealed portion, the interpreters and the sword of Laban.
But also, the representation that a portion of the sealed portion will be translated and sent to the Independence area for publication.
I had not heard anything about this, however I am aware of an effort to bring the restoration groups together under a leadership called the Pastors in Zion.
We must prayfully address these claims and I will be checking in with my local sources back there.
Thank you so very, very much for sharing this information.
I have typed out a transcription of the email so we could refer to the specifics. Here is the best I could do. There are several ? in the text where I had difficulty making out the word.
I also interlineated the scriptures cited in the email.
I have a lot to say, Mr. Smith, but as I do not know how to speak and write in English, I hear that the Google translator will transcribe a phrase, otherwise causing confusion, that can be read by you. So I’ll briefly summarize the facts so you can keep tract of what happened to us and what we want with you.
I do not understand all of your scriptures, your doctrines, but I will use the Bible and the text of your scriptures that appears in the site http://www.centerplace.org.
It all started April 6, 2007. It was the eve of Easter. I had climbed a hill alone to pray to God in the desire to get some answers to my questions. During the trip I was lost in the woods closed? until sunset and night came and the darkness of the trees was larger than an enclosed room and, without a flashlight, I could not move from that place. Fear, at that time, took over my senses, making me feel like a dark force was overwhleming me. When a light appeared through the tees pushing away the fear that surrounded me soon a character involved in that light called me by name and said not to be afraid. He identified himself as an angel of God with the name of Raphael. Which years later I could see, in one of his writings, that he visited Joseph Smith Jr.. [This is from LDS DC 110:21b, this is the LDS DC in Portuguese which is the only one they have.]
On this occassion, the angel Raphael made, with his hands, light to illuminate the whole forest so that I could reach the top of the hill where I received a visitation of another celestial being which I will not report here with this email but will leave for another occassion. [JS then said that later on he learned that this being was Moroni because at this time Moroni began to work with these people.]
The being who was waiting for me at the top of the mountain, then prescribed, more than once, the text of Isaiah1 two through nine, so that it was etched in my memory. [Following is the text referred to.]
1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord hath spoken; I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters; they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
1:5 Why should ye be stricken anymore? ye will revolt more and more; the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores; they have not been closed; neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
1:9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
He told me that he appeared to me because of my great faith and righteousness and that my prayer had touched the feelings of him who rules the whole universe. But he required me to return to that same place, no longer alone, but accompanied by three other men who would approach me for Bible study and that we should go back there once every year until ten years had passed. And so we did. Until we came to understand what God expects us to do.
Your [JS] contact was revealed to us in this last time which was January 21st of this year, 2017. We were told on this occassion that we went up the hill, that the Lord was moving his Hand to restore Zion to its place determined by him in a place chosen to be the New Jerusalem in Missouri. He said that the churches which bear his name had strayed from their covenants making the arm of flesh their strength. He showed us that the remnant quoted by him to me the first time, in the words of Isaiah 1:9, to be the branches of the restoration. However, he affirmed that even among the branches of the Restoration, there were certain divergencies of opinions and that they are not altogether one of heart and mind. Therefore the Lord looks with appreciation to you, Mr. SmithJ and to your congregation for he has seen your labor and the intent of your heart.
[JS said that he has worked for 21 years to bring the saints together beginning with the Waldo sermon wherein the Lord said that they had a window of opportunity to step through and to find common ground and to work together and begin to build up the Kingdom of God. For the most part the sermon went in one ear and out the other.]
But there is no way to get your people back together in one flock in your country. For there is much strife and repugnent? among latter day saints in regard to the other churches which in one have been divided into many. But God will do it from Brazil until it fills all Latin America, Central, finally to arrive again in the lands of the North where the people of the covenant is accounted as being a great multitude. Rev. 7:9 [quoted below]
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
In relation of what the Lord requires of us with you is that a congregation directed by you here in Brazil be established and be in commune with other branches of the restoration because the Holy Spirit will operate by in our midst entering? increasing? in many chapels of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for there are many people in that denomination that the Lord intends to seep for himself as he did in the past when the Nephites preached to the Lamanites. Our work therefore is therefore is similar to that of Alma who preached among the wicked people of King Noah converting his member to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Lord allowed the powers of darkness to take over the regency of the greatest church of the saints of today but he intends to seek his own chiefs from this spot so that the prophecy of Ia 60:22 will come.
60:22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation; I the Lord will hasten it in my time.
What we initially desire is the baptism of your hands or an authority sent to us from you for this purpose and to obtain the gift of the Holy Ghost in order to fulfill our ministry fully as promised to us by the heavenly beings.
We are willing to separate our tithes from now on to achieve this goal which is not ours only, but of our Lord, Jesus Christ. We were told that you would be our leader as long as you lived. Amen
[End of email]
I found another video which was a week, or less, before the sermon of Joseph F. Smith. Here is the link:
Bob Moore talks about the Brazil experience, but not in detail, choosing instead to say that Brother Smith is the primary witness and it was hoped that that testimony would be given within the coming week. (It was.)
Because I believe that this video may contain important information about the second invitation issue, I’m going to send the link now. However, I have uncovered prior efforts by Bob Moore and Joseph Smith relative to attempts to bring unity between some of the restoration break aways from the RLDS/CoC and the Temple lot faction. I’m going to cover that info in a different email.
I have been out here in California since 1965 with relatively little face to face interaction with the saints struggling with the take over of the RLDS leadership and the changing of that body into the CoC which, I understand, has been accepted into the World Council of Churches.
Once thousands of saints fled the apostate RLDS/CoC, they tended to stay connected in their own groups and simply renamed their groups.
Along the way a number of local leaders tried to find a way to unify the restoration branches and they began the JCRB, Joint Conference of Restoration Branches.
As best I can tell, Bob Moore was working with several churches, a Bickertenite branch, an LDS congregation, and the Temple Lot church where Joseph F. Smith is a member. I believe that Bob Moore tried very hard to get the JCRB to accept Joseph as a voting member of the conference. This caused some dissent and I don’t really know if Joseph was ever accepted for voting.
Nonetheless, it is clear that Moore and Smith developed a working relationship despite coming from very different organizations.
Here is some info found on an internet report:
JCRB Seventy Bob Moore
In Retrospect, Where Have We Been
Bob Moore, around 45 minutes into his presentation, reveals that there are ties with three organizations, Church of Christ Temple Lot (Joseph F. Smith and some others), Bickertonites preaching in JCRB congregations, and that Richard Kohn is working with Utah LDS. Bob Moore is working with Joseph F. Smith with some Utah LDS and have a pending agreement to work in harmony with a congregation of LDS in a nearby area near Independence. He says,
“We intend to do that”.
Question to Bob “Where is the LDS congregation?”
Bob, “I can’t identify that, I get people in trouble.”
It is apparent that Bob Moore is a stronger personality and that Joseph defers to Moore.
What is becoming clearer is that we simply don’t know enough about the communications from Brazil to either Smith or Moore. In his sermon, Smith referred to several emails between the BG and himself.
We know that in the second video, the Q&A, Moore gave an introduction in which he described what the two of them knew before they went to Brazil.
But we have no record of the ongoing emails. Did the BG tell Smith/Moore that they had the artifacts before they went down there? Frankly, it sounded to me like they did not know that in advance. But no one asked exactly when did you first know that they claimed to have the BOM plates, Laban’s sword and the interpreters?
Anyway, I just wanted to pass this on.
My wife, who is licensed as a marriage and family counselor, but who is not a member of any of organization deriving from the original JS, Jr. Church of Jesus Christ, watched both the sermon testimony of Joseph Smith and the Q&A evening service.
She said that she actually felt sorry for Joseph because it was apparent that he has a good heart, but that he could be manipulated. Should any of his story turn out to be false, it will likely cause Joseph serious physical problems.
The narrative story, when pieced together, presents some questions/problems for which we do not have sufficient information to resolve.
1. Joseph’s testimony was that his first contact with the Brazilian Group came by way of an email from Mauricio. The email had to have been prepared subsequent to 1/21/17 because Mauricio’s email said that Joseph’s contact was given to them on that date. Presumably it was Moroni who gave the contact information to them. However, the email address was to a generic address, which was owned by Bob Moore.
Q: Did Joseph have an individual email address on or before 1/21/17?
Q: Who first received the email sent to the generic address?
Q: Was the email read by someone, other than Joseph, before it was delivered to him?
Q: Has the email from Mauricio been saved digitally or in printed form?
Q: Was the reading by Joseph, on Sunday morning, a direct quoting of the email received at the generic email address?
2, Also, concerning the ongoing emails between Smith, Moore and Mauricio. Smith referred to emails about ongoing questions from Mauricio.
Q: Are these communications being conducted by emails?
Q: Are these emails being collected and will they be made available for review?
Q: Are other forms of communication being used?
Q: Will all forms of communication be made available for review?
3. The smashing of the interpreters. This was described in some detail especially as to the fragments which were saved. Personally, if I had artifacts given to me by an angel, I would NEVER smash any part of the gift. One does not have to look through the interpreters if one fears the result. But to destroy? I think not.
4. The antipathy towards the LDS church was jarring, especially when the message of Joseph said how he has spent 21 years trying to build bridges and bring groups together. Related to this concern is the apparent belief that the RLDS (now restoration branches) is the “True” church with no seeming recognition that the entire original church was rejected and slipped into apostacy.
Reading JFS’s biography shows that his father left the RLDS in 1925 and joined up with the Temple Lot people. This is a significant date because it was in 1925 that the “Supreme Directional Control” doctrine of RLDS Pres. F. M. Smith, led to a major split off of RLDS membership.
5. Many awake saints believe that we are in end times events and that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder is something we are looking for at any moment. But we must be alert to watch for any of Satan’s deceptive practices. Having the BOM gold plates, interpreters and sword of Laban surface in Brazil, Porto Alegra, rather than the Promised Land raises a “red flag.” This development will create even more division among believers who are and will be advised to gather to Zion. Now, there will be questions about gathering to South America, Brazil. So, was Mauricio deceived? His comrades?
6. During the Q&A evening meeting, questions were asked about pictures of the artifacts. It was stated that Mauricio’s group took pictures of both Smith and Moore holding the Plates. Where are those pictures? If they were taken digitally, they are already “out there” and will likely surface at some point. Did Mauricio send emails with digital photos attached to Smith or Moore? If so, will they show the pictures?
7. Additional witnesses also bear on the bona fides of this experience. We are told that there are to be additional witnesses to be named by the Lord. Who is the prophet who is to receive those names? It seemed that it is Joseph F. Smith, although I do not recall him expressly saying he is the one. Should not witnesses also be selected from LDS, CoC as well as Restoration Branches? Looks like a bit of a nightmare to handle the selection process without a Prophet.
8. We are told that Mauricio’s group will handle the translation of the sealed portion, a least a part of it, but what happened to the promise to Oliver Cowdery that he would have a translator’s role in future revealing of hidden records?
9. Why the angel Raphael? Not mentioned in the Bible, but referred to in LDS DC 110:21b. But, what about Joseph Smith, Jr., to whom the keys of the Kingdom, which was coming forth for the last time, were given to him and “. . . shall never be taken from . . .” him in this world and “neither in the world to come; . . ..” LDS DC 90:2-3 Is JS,Jr. simply out of the loop?
10, What about the parable of the wheat and tares? The gathering of the wheat was to come by separating the tares and the wheat sheaves were to be gathered into the barns. Yet, this experience suggests that the Lord has given up on those in North America because they are hopeless. JFSmith read from Mauricio’s email:
“But there is no way to get your people back together in one flock in your country. For there is much strife and repugnent? among latter day saints in regard to the other churches which in one have been divided into many. But God will do it from Brazil until it fills all Latin America, Central, finally to arrive again in the lands of the North where the people of the covenant is accounted as being a great multitude. . . .”
Is this the way the Lord fulfills his parable? By simply abandoning the prior work? Is the Lord to ignore those who have awakened to their awful circumstances and are trying to understand what they are to do? Are we to understand that our efforts will not be needed until all of South and Central America is converted? This just does not seem right to me.
11. What about the promises made to the First Laborers in the Lord’s vineyard? They only laid the foundation and their work was cut short of finalization. Were they not promised that yet their voices would be raised in warning to the great and notable cities of North America? If so, has the Lord decided now to leave these brethern on the sidelines and give the fulfillment of their efforts to others? There is no prophetic announcement of this so far as I can see.
There are many other points that could be raised, but without a lot more information and some prophetic explanations, I’m just not buying this story yet. So far we have been essentially told, “Trust us, we are telling you the truth.” But I trusted the leadership of the RLDS who then later joined the World Council of Churches, declared the BOM not historical and authoritative, took the name of Jesus Christ out of the Church name, de-emphasized Joseph Smith, Jr., and adopted open communion, same sex marriage, and other non-scriptural doctrines. Trust is a necessary, but not sufficient, basis for belief.
If Brothers Smith and Moore were seeking our assent to the truth of their report, much more is needed. How do we know that they even went to Brazil? How do we know they met with Mauricio and others? Where are the pictures of their meeting with the Brazilian Group, the baptisms, and other interactions? Where are the pictures of the angelic donated artifacts? Where is Mauricio’s explanation of why he smashed the interpreters? Was he admonished by Moroni for having done so? Where is the prophet of God to declare what God is doing especially in the context of promises made in the D&C?
It would be marvelous and wonderful if the second invitation is being made and that the Lord’s hand is moving to both execute judgment upon the wicked and to extend salvation to the more righteous. But so far we have only Joseph F. Smith’s statement that he is the man who has declared this to us. There is much yet to be learned.
Thanks for sharing those videos. If this is true, this is of supreme importance.
Kind of incredible, but not sure what to think. I always thought the restoration would happen here in America.
I’m studying 2 Ne. 3 to see how what he said Moroni said it should be interpreted works out or not.
Right now my mind is dark and can’t see it. I’m going to take another pass at it later.
One thing that did come to mind when Elder Joseph Smith was speaking of his priesthood being pure and handed down was D&C 86:10
10 Therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began.
Feel free to share your thoughts on the matter.
This is what I received from them:
As I am sure you can imagine, there are some pretty significant demands on Brother Bob and Joseph’s time and that will probably continue for the near term. Joseph lives about three hours from Independence so he is not readily available “in person” in our area (Independence, MO) and Bob is leaving Friday for a couple of week mission trip to Sri Lanka.
We have been visiting some about holding a larger gathering in Independence similar to the one you perhaps viewed on UStream so that the testimonies can be shared to a larger group as well as offering an opportunity for more dialogue and discussion and perhaps even some worship. Right now, we only have the idea but no plans. I could, however, imagine that we might do something in early December. We’ll have to wait until Bob returns to discuss further and make the plans. I will hang on to your note and let you know.
Additionally, I think it will be important to have an online vehicle of some sort where up-to-date information can be shared. It will be too much to keep so many informed just through eMail. We have the ability to do that, I just need to get it rolling and am going to start that dialogue with a few this evening.
I’ve read 2 Ne. 3 and JST Gen 50 and listened to the part where Bob is teaching what Moroni says about Elder Joseph Smith today being the spokesman and of the loins of Joseph Smith, Jr.
I can’t see it. I have a stupor of thought just writing about it.
Here’s the hand written account of my research.
I found some good gems while doing this research project.
Bob Moore says that Moroni taught that 2 Ne. 3:11 speaks of Jospeh Smith III being the one referred to of convincing them of the word that had already gone forth with his contributions of the Inspired Version of the Bible and other commandments.
11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.
Well in the Inspired Version of the Bible in Gen. 50:30 there’s an addition to that verse that changes things. I believe the addition is so significant that it can’t possibly be referring to JS3.
30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;
What you’ll find interesting in the JST Gen 50 account of the promises given to Joseph in Egypt is the fact that “latter days” and “last days” are used a total of four times. Two times each.
It appears to me that the term latter days when it is used has reference to the 2nd Watch or LDS Restpration Movement while the term last days has reference to the 3rd Watch or last time prior to Christ’s second coming in glory.
So for me it’s a stretch to say that 2 Ne 3:11 has reference to JS3 during the latter days segment of this prophesy when the scripture in JST Gen 50:30 says it takes place during the last days.
That’s just one of many inconsistencies that I found in the message delivered when compared against the Holy Word of God.
Can’t wait to see what you and others have written.
Thanks. [responding to one of my email responses]
I wanted to believe, but I can’t deny the revealed revelations.
I don’t know how people are going to survive all the coming deceptions when they want to discount the current revelations.
Looking at just the BoM it’s hard to see the deception, but when looked at in harmony with all revealed word, aka JST.
Also, why did it take Moroni 10 years!! That’s where I got lost the first time.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.
This is a link to their blog. I find it interesting that his way of combating any of the negative press that’s out there about his trip to Brazil is for them to leave it alone and see if it dies on its own and, he makes no mention of any of the artifacts that he personally handled while on his trip. He only defends the fact that he went there to give baptize and ordain.
I find that very suspect. Why he would not defend his testimony.
Watcher: Well…My initial instinct is to believe Elder Joseph Smith http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/109371953.
I will ask the lord for a confirmation straight away. Too many signs have already been given for me to ignore it. I am certain our mutual friend and brother (XXX XXXXXXXX) knows him, and I would like XXXX to weigh in on the subject if he can.
Given your background, you probably have met him yourself. I trust you would not have shared the video with us unless you thought there is likely something there.
The order and manner of the roll up to Missouri sounds approximately right from teachers like XXXX XXXXXX and XXX XXXXXXXXXXX. The timing of dark things happening simultaneously in Washington sounds right. Even the Dream Mine sign of the wheat sounds right.
Having a descendant of Joseph Smith announce it sounds right to me. I dunno how much better timed this can be. God bless you in your work. Your friend, XXXXXX
I sent an email to joseph[at]reorganizedChurch.org
Elder Joseph: I listened to your testimony tonight. I believe you. I love you and the Lord. I am here in Utah if you need anything. There are 100s upon 100s of us prepared by the Lord to assist you. Herah for Israel. XXXX XXXX, Friend of XXXX XXXXXXX.
Bob Moore sent the following to me (by mistake)
Joseph: I received this email from a person in Utah. I know XXX XXXXXX. He is involved in a group, many of whom are LDS members. They believe that they need to obey parts of the Law of Moses. XXXX invited me to join that group several years ago. I told him that I choose to live by faith in Jesus Christ instead of obedience to a dead law of works. I do not know if this person and the people to whom he refers are part of that group or not. Let me know how this contact works out. Bob
Note: I don’t think Bob Moore understands Eskdale
XXX called cautioning me to hold my fire and to not jump off a cliff without a parachute. He told me he would provide 2 parachutes to make sure. I had a good laugh.
Hello: I have just now had an interesting chat with XXXX XXXXXXX regarding Elder Joseph F Smith (former Hedrickite apostle). XXXX said he has a parachute for me and wants me not to jump just yet as he investigates on the ground. I sent an email the Elder Joseph F Smith and got a reply back from his spokesperson, Bob Moore.
This is a fascinating journey of discovery.
The sword of Laban. The interpreters. The sealed portion. It’s like a safari. For sure, my friend XXXX knows I have a tendency to jump first and ask questions later, so back to work and Babylon I go. BTW… My brother said I am like the “eye of mordor” ever looking and watching LOL, but I told him that honor goes to Watcher. To be frank, the more opposition I hear about Joseph F Smith, the more I like him. Love from XXXX
I called my like-minded friends. Only one (a mutual friend) was very interested. The rest are waiting.
XXXX called again to say a tornado of activity at Independence was sweeping through the Restoration Branches stating mostly only the young people have accepted the testimony of JFS.
Brother Bob: It looks like your forward to Elder Joseph went to my email instead. Please forward my original inquiry to Joseph F Smith again if you don’t mind. BTW… I happened to chat with XXXX while he traveled from Eskdale back to Independence today. He said you and Joseph have caused quite a stir at Independence, and I certainly hope so. I admire your courage to just say what you saw and not equivocate about it. Other than my noising your testimony around, I have not heard any other account of it from anyone else in Utah yet. I will keep my ear to the ground. God Bless you, XXXX XXXXXX
Note: This is a lot of fun, and I still want it to be true very much. When I heard the testimony, I considered it to be true. Some of your posts caution about asking folly questions to the Lord. Oliver Cowdery was warned to do more than just ask. I get it. I’m working on it. Thanks for sending the link.
I replied to Bro Bob who sent me an apology for mis directing his forward to jsf.
I listened to your testimony tonight. I believe you. I love you and the Lord. I am here in Utah if you need anything. There are 100s upon 100s of us prepared by the Lord to assist you. Herah for Israel.
Friend of XXXX XXXXXXXXX.
Bob. Great, thank you so much! I know XXX and Fred Larsen and all the members of the House of Aaron at Eskdale utah, but I grew up LDS. No. I am not a member of the group spoken of but I have great love and admiration for them. Not for their great understanding of the Book of Mormon, but for a joyful reason given me from the Spirit.
When I write of 100s upon 100s prepared, I am referencing a loose movement of LDS members being groomed to live in small communities of believers with the Lord only as shepard. I am a member of 6 such families which are meeting regularly. We have our differences as I hear you do. We pattern ourselves after the Kirtland school of the prophets.
We are learning the refinement process of ascension to be in God’s presence. We are as Levites (my understanding) and will eventually become the sacifice before the Lord ourselves as found in Malachi.
It’s all about restoring the House of Israel in my opinion. I have told XXXX in the past; the Lord must have loved all you all first because he scattered you first.
I believe your message of unity because it makes sense. I sense you have gone through hell and back with what I am just now learning are “Restoration Branches.”
We dont have a scatter problem in LDS world. We have a a glue problem that wont let any idea in but our own. My sense is you and Joseph are opposites that way. There is much to learn for all of us who think we have it figured out and that’s why i am hopeful in what you are doing.
Show quoted text
It looks like your forward to Elder Joseph went to my email instead. Please forward my original inquiry to Joseph F Smith again if you don’t mind.
BTW… I happened to chat with XXX while he traveled from Eskdale back to Independence today. He said you and Joseph have caused quite a stir at Independence, and I certainly hope so. I admire your courage to just say what you saw and not equivocate about it. Other than my noising your testimony around, I have not heard any other account of it from anyone else in Utah yet. I will keep my ear to the ground.
God Bless you,
Correct. Some of the rumors around the “Restoration Branches” is the “large sum of money” charge. Mauricio has NOT asked for money that I know about and neither has JFS. To produce a 60# set of plates would have taken $1,400,000 cash. Recently tungsten has been used to fake gold bars, which if applied here, is only $1,200 to to build a fake that would heft like gold and may be the origin of the schmutzy black grime??? LOL. More difficult would be filling 68 leaves with strange characters without any apparent origin.
Tungsten comes in foil which means it is flexible: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Tungsten-foil-can-be-made-as_60569394424.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.30.4e0da080rGqdW1&s=p
And, of course, tungsten can be plated with gold: http://www.tungstenaffinity.com/Gold-Plated-Tungsten-Rings-s/306.htm
Unfortunately, seeing gold plates is not enough in this age to prove anything. It makes me sad.
Correct. Some of the rumors around the “Restoration Branches” is the “large sum of money” charge. Mauricio has NOT asked for money that I know about and neither has JFS. To produce a 60# set of plates would have taken $1,400,000 cash. Recently tungsten has been used to fake gold bars, which if applied here, is only $1,200 to to build a fake that would heft like gold and may be the origin of the schmutzy black grime??? LOL. More difficult would be filling 68 leaves with strange characters without any apparent origin.
Spanish chemists discovered the metal tungsten in the 1700s. Does that mean the Nephites could have been shown it? Maybe. But…Still bugging me is the baptisms by fire and the loving people. Deceivers don’t get those experiences. Can Joseph F Smith discern a deceiver?
All that said…. Please put me down as a believer in what has been shared so far from the 2 videos. I only know one other person in my circles who agrees with me. All other oppose me. What a wonderful time to live!
Watcher: Thanks for your post this morning. Your summary of positions wasn’t well understood by me, but you must be some kind of savant in ways. I hope you are not offended.
BTW… It was instructive for me to read the Book of Ether again today. I’m sure you have already done so.
FYI Below with a newsy greeting from the ZB pastor
Brother Bob left Friday for a mission trip to Sri Lanka. (It was planned before he and Joseph went to Brazil.) He won’t return until Nov 18 but I expect that when he does that we’ll organize something here in the area in a larger venue so that more can attend.
We have quickly tossed together a web site to keep all up-to-date as these events unfold:
When we get something scheduled, we’ll post a notice there.
We absolutely welcome inquires and interest from the LDS community.
Dear Brad G.:
I have heard there isn’t much affinity between the Utah Church and Josephites especially from older members. I can easily pick up on the rancor regarding the “apostate” member of the Brazil group who joined the LDS and became a problem for Mauricio. In Utah we are so dang full of ourselves we hardly notice anyone else at present, so I can understand.
As a child we gossiped about RLDS and we spoke of some day returning on foot to Missouri, but as the years have passed, more and more temples have been built without a clear reason. As details of church history emerged since the 1980s (i.e. follies of polygamy and witholding priesthood from blacks) there were and are a few on the Left who are becoming atheists; those few on the Right have doubled down on Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and Lectures on Faith.
We (conservative seekers) mostly are looking to ascend into Christ’s presence as promised by Joseph and we cast off the remnants of not-for-this-telestial-world doctrines that Brigham probably got from Joseph but never understood them well. The whole nexus of polygamy and our temple rites came from Brother Brigham’s memory. The law of adoption itself was a tumble of misunderstandings and has resulted in our temple ordinances.
When Brigham saw Joseph in a dream (1847), the most important question he had was regarding what to do with adoption. It was a mess with priesthood holders in Nauvoo striving to get the biggest spiritual family they could by being “sealed” to one another with the highest priesthood holder at the top of a pyramid. Joseph didn’t answer him directly but told Brigham to have us live by the Holy Ghost and we would be directed right.
We kept up our nutty behavior, but it has all evolved and devolved down to the mostly sanitized versions observed today. Sadly, somewhere along the trail, Second Comforter principles were obscured and forgotten even though the Doctrine of Christ is clearly taught in the Book of Mormon (2nd Nephi). I don’t see anyone in Missouri yet teaching it, but it will be again in my opinion. Both sides of the rockies kept part of the restoration in their own way, and it’s still alive! Moreover I know over 100 priesthood men in my circles who have studied in a School patterned after Kirtland. There are many more than 100.
It reminds me of the promises in Malachi about refining the priesthood of Levi and an offering being made before New Jerusalem. That offering is probably latter-day men and women repenting and purifying themselves and the priesthood for a restoration of God’s house. Our centrally controlled leadership do not like us studying and talking about it, and thus many have been disciplined including me (my temple recommend was cancelled).
I still go to church, but it’s like God has swept my mind clean of all traditions. Left are the doctrines given us by Joseph mostly before Kirtland. Therefore we have faith in one yet to come Mighty And Strong. We believe Adam-ondi-ahman was an event many of us saw in vision having taken place 23 Sept 2017. Therefore the story coming out of Brazil is perfectly timed and independently offset as another witness of its veracity.
We are all descendants of Joseph’s work. Does Joseph F Smith ever talk about including us in the mountains and across the world?
Would very much agree that we need to be watchful. The Joseph Smith Ministries site was built quite a number of years ago. Brother Bob Moore built it and maintains it for Joseph. He publishes a monthly newsletter and you find the archive of those on the site. It was an outgrowth of powerful testimony that Joseph has that he had a calling to try to help unite the Restoration and its many portions. I linked the site because we are getting questions about who Joseph is and the site does give some background on him.
Email # 10
The man behind the curtain seems to be the JCRB http://conferenceofbranches.org/. At least that is the suspicion of several (more than my initial contact). JCRB is a faction from a fraction as they say. Fred Larsen was hugely dissed by them at one time and the Zarahemla Branch was at the center; or so it seemed.
Bob Moore got his Seventy title from the JCRB which now has apostles and they seem to be angling toward getting a prophet. Will that goal now be derailed by JFS or will it be supported by him. That is the hanging chad question at Independence.
What I still like is the veracity of both JFS and Bob Moore. JFS kept saying “this is not about starting another church.” Seventy Moore kept saying “Joseph is the Lord’s spokesman.” If Seventy Moore has designs to conscript the hapless JFS it won’t work if this all is of God. If Bob is just another articulate apostle Paul, we have a winner. Maybe the JCRB and Remnant Church will unite to support JFS. That would be a good thing if it’s as true as I want it to be.
Bob Moore has approved this message from him for circulation
All of us who believe the latter-day message are also bound by the denominational traditions that separate us. Everyone of those denominations failed at one point, so it makes little sense to defend any of them.
There is nothing to lose if one has already lost the favor of God. There is everything to gain if a person loses the things of the world and gains God’s favor. The titles of men and their accolades have no comparison to the sweet presence of the Holy Spirit.
Whenever the Spirit of God moves in power, it prepares people beforehand to receive it. I am glad that there is a group that the Lord prepared in Utah. I expect that there are others elsewhere.
Later this moth I will talk to Joseph about the wisdom of coming to Utah to meet the group of whom you speak. I will also let you know the next time Joseph speaks publicly.
I want to elaborate on uniting the people without organizing them. I mean by that statement that Joseph is not planning on creating a church organization that people join. Everyone comes from the background that they are currently in. The unifying ingredient is the testimony that the sealed portion is about to come forth and the Lord must have a unified people in the Land of Zion to received and publish its translation as well as build the Temple.
The spokesman for the translator is Joseph F. Smith. He is the person to guide those who believe and seek unification. That may mean that he receives revelation from God on necessary items to help that unification happen. We are promised that the Lord will pour His righteousness on the believers who come together. This is the real miracle, that when the Lord pours His righteousness on us, He will make us one. The differences that keep us apart will evaporate and we will happily do what the Lord wills.
At some point organization must come, but it will be after the believers are unified. If the Lord spoke through Joseph and revealed how to organize before there is unity, many people would refuse to come together. Unity must proceed the revelation.
We cannot build the temple without organization. I am a home builder. You cannot have a bunch of people from different trades show up all at once and expect them to build something that stands. There must be key people in charge and functioning.
When that organizing comes, Joseph will be the spokesman, but it will come through the means and consistent with the fashion that the Lord has already established. No one will doubt it, but rejoice in how consistent and true to His word our Lord is.
May the Lord bless you and those with whom you associate as you better prepare for the glorious days ahead. I look forward to our continued communications and especially the time that we meet.
The Independence rumor mill is working overtime at the center place of Zion. I got the following text this afternoon: “will it make any difference to you if the seekers in Brazil are former LDS members … or … if Mauricio also contacted someone else in January? Developing!!”
Additional Misc emails
Some of the buzz out of Independence tonight is: 1) Why would the circle of unity extend to only a few “Restoration Branches,” 2) Why would Temple Lot Hedrikites be included at all, 3) why would there be bashing of others (including the ‘apostate’ LDS), 4) why was Joseph and Bob broad-sided without advance awareness of what he was getting into, 5) why doesn’t Mauricio accept the D&C, 6) why was sword even there… on and on.
My group of friends, 9:1, have concluded Joe and Bob (and Mauricio) were all duped by an angel of light (Raphael, Moroni, 3 Nephites) masquerading to embarrass the LDS Church. Everyone’s ox is gored.
My final question back to my friends was: Can an angel of light produce physical gold plates?, smashed interpreters?, loving people?
I plan to wait for more evidence. It looks to me like all the “Restoration” is in need of unity and charity in a big way. If it’s real, the Lord will help us get over ourselves. It has to happen sooner or later anyway. In order for a masquerade to be perpetrated, the drama will need to continue for quite some time. Our Brethren won’t get wind of it for a while if the past is an indicator of how they will react.
Thanks for sharing it on your blog in the first place,
Pretty amazing stuff happening.
Those poor people. [referring to the Q & A Session]
I like how all they could ask the witnesses was about the plates, their shape, feel, dimension etc.
None of them asked them important doctrinal questions.
Another evidence of the times. I wonder if Denver is going to jump on this train? That would be an interesting twist.
I felt something dangerously close to the Spirit of God as I watched Elder Joseph Smith’s testimony. I now feel that this is the work of Satan and not man. The individuals in Brazil are speaking with a messenger from the other side, but it is not an angel from heaven.
If they were speaking with Moroni– once a year the last ten years!– they would have a much better idea what’s going on.
I almost bought that Elder Joseph Smith held a priesthood which was “pure” enough to baptize the group in Brazil. I was disappointed that he did not confer the gift of the Holy Ghost at the waterside, as the Lord has recommended (D&C 52:10) and that they never got on their knees for the blessing of the sacrament.
Still, these incongruities were small, especially if this is a prepatory work like Sidney Rigdon pre-1830.
The dealbreaker was that Elder Joseph Smith ordained the soon-to-be prophets to the Melchizedek priesthood.
This was proof that they are not speaking with Moroni. Moroni would have, of course, told them that they must sacrifice all things and enter into the law of consecration before being ordained to the high priesthood.
But even so, just because Elder Joseph Smith lacks the gift of discernment, it doesn’t mean that the golden plates haven’t been delivered to someone. Until a translation comes forward, I feel we must remain open to the possibility it is of God.
I wanted to see what a Snufferite thought of Brazil, so I sent the video links to XXXX XXXXXX
Here’s his response:
No, I hadn’t heard of this. I listened to one of the testimonies. Very interesting.
My current inclination is that this is a hoax, though I admit I don’t know much about it. Certain parts of the story don’t hold up to examination, in my opinion. I do believe the gentlemen are telling the truth, and that they saw what they said they saw. But I’m not sure the plates, sword, and interpreters are genuine. Too many inconsistencies and questionable details.
But time will tell, won’t it?
Respondent # 6
Elder Smith and Seventy Moore’s sincerity cannot be questioned.
They both obviously believe in what they are sharing.
They both swear that they saw and handled the plates, sword, and interpreters.
I have no reason to question their claims based on their sincerity.
I even reached out to them via their website to offer my services as they plan to return to Brazil a second time (I speak Portuguese).
If it is true that Moroni has given the plates to Mauricio in Brazil then that is a sad commentary that the Lord couldn’t find even one worthy servant in the U.S. to continue with the Restoration where he left off.
According to Elder Smith and Seventy Moore we will soon have the translation of the sealed portion to study and contemplate.
That will be one additional piece of evidence for the rest of the world, in addition to their own first-hand witness.
Here’s my two cents worth on the reports from Elder Joseph Smith and Seventy Bob Moore of the Zarahemla Branch and their report of activity in Brazil:
1. Even though I’ve never heard of them before, they seem humble, sincere, credible and believable.
2. Their story and the story of those in Brazil seem to fit at least some scriptural patterns (outside the established religious mainstream, small humble group, fire in bosom, angelic visitations)
3. At the moment, I’m inclined to believe them. So far, so good – let’s proceed to the next step
4. There don’t seem to be any big red flags which scream out STOP
Bogus. The spirit feels like a lead thump. Not the voice or the Spirit of the God I follow.
Gold plates can appear…”demon assisted” magic abounds. It’s not about the witnesses or the objects, it’s about the message https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UvpPc6rfg&feature=share
It has been a long time since I have reached out to you. I have still been here following your post and I am still watching and waiting patiently for the servants to return and the Lord to reveal his hand once again on the earth.
Okay this could turn into a long email but I am determined to make it short so wish me luck on that. My initial impression of the events happening with the Zarahemla Branch and the community down in Brazil is that these people are extremely sincere and without a doubt good people.
There were several things that Elder Joseph Smith and Seventy Bob Moore said that I found extremely interesting because in someways they connected to some of the things you have talked about in a few of your post.
Here are my two big concerns about what they are saying and how they are saying it.
First of all were are the servants and second of all were is the power?
As I was listening to them talk about how Elder Joseph is the Moses spoken of in the Book of Mormon and Seventy Bob Moore is the Spokesman that did not sit well with me at all.
I believe the scriptures are clear on who those two individuals are and even if we have that part wrong my next question would be were is your power and authority.
I did not sense anything different from these two men other than what you typically get from other spiritual leaders on this earth.
I do not say that to belittle them in anyway but I am absolutely convinced that when the Lord extends his hand a second time that it will not be done or started by normal men.
The problem we keep running into with all of these different groups that claim they have found the truth or that the Lord is speaking to them is that they are all trying to save themselves by changing slowly over time.
They are all claiming that if they can just live their life in such a way that they Lord will eventually reveal to them the next step and his work will continue forward.
There seems to be a feeling that they will somehow be able to morph into what the Lord needs them to be. I get the same sense with this group as well.
One more point I wanted to add and I believe that only people who are extremely familiar with your post and blog would feel this way.
I absolutely could care less about if there was actual gold plates or not. I was more interested in what they were saying and if it lined up with the scriptures. I believe we live in a world were deception comes in all forms and fashion and if someone is going to be persuaded by physical objects alone then they are in a world of trouble. With that being said I absolutely loved how he described the plates (pretty cool)!
Anyways I could be totally wrong and I will definitely continue to keep my eyes, ears, and heart open the best way I can but so far I feel the need to be cautious with this one. I look forward to getting your official thoughts soon as well.
Respondent # 10
Here are my thoughts on the new development regarding the marvelous work.
To start with, I have been researching Book of Mormon chapters involved with “commence the work”. Here is my list: 1 Nephi 14, 2 Nephi 2, 2 Nephi 30, 3 Nephi 21 up to verse 21, 3 Nephi 21 after verse 21, Mormon 3, and Ether 4.
I divided the 3 Nephi chapter because there was a chapter division in the original Book of Mormon at that place. The word “commence” ties all these sections together, so each part reveals a portion of what we are looking for in the fulfillment of prophecy “at that day”.
The first thing that caught my attention is how accurately the time we live in is being described, not just in general, but in the specific events playing out on the news.
Since the signs in the heavens (blood moons, solar eclipse, and Rev 12 star alignment) we have seen tempests, floods, fires, earthquakes, bloodshed, plague, and I think the famine is soon to come. There are wars and rumors of wars, but more significantly, hidden things of darkness are being made known. (Hollywood scandals, JFK assassination papers released, people not believing the LV shooting false narrative, Clinton corruption investigations, etc.) This tells me this is the season to be watching, so we are not caught unaware as the warnings and invitations are extended to anyone who will repent.
If we are correct about the time, a couple other things to be watching for are sealed books coming to light (2 Ne 29-30) and the work of the servant/seer (2 Nephi 3)
I realize that most people in the LDS church think these things came to pass in the days of Joseph Smith jr. However, for all the good it has done us, the work is still to be done.
We have copies of the Book of Mormon, but its message is still sealed for most people, and many members of the church have testimonies of neither the book nor the seer.
I found it extremely interesting that the video covered an interpretation of some 2 Nephi 3 verses that I had been pondering the day before. The is an extremely hard chapter to parse because the names and pronouns are nearly impossible to keep track of.
Admittedly, I know nothing about Joseph Smith III whom the speakers said is the seer in that chapter, but I would disagree strongly on that point because it doesn’t fit the history.
Verse 14 says: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded… That has to be Joseph Smith, whose name is spoken both good and evil of. (I don’t think that difference kills the relevance of the angel’s teachings because it could simply be a misunderstanding based on translation problems)
I was interested to hear the modern Joseph Smith say he was identified as the spokesman from that chapter. That will be tested as he begins to speak and we have some fruit to test.
The thing that really caught my attention about the presentation was based on my reading of what needs to happen, based on the 3 Nephi 20-21 verses.
“Behold, my servant shall deal prudently. He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. As many were astonished at thee — his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men — so shall he sprinkle [JST- gather] many nations.” (3 Ne 20:43-45)
“But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although they shall be marred because of them. Yet will I heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe my words — which am Jesus Christ — which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, it shall be done even as Moses said: they shall be cut off from among my people which are of the covenant.” (3 Nephi 21:10-11)
According to how I read these passages, Joseph Smith Jr. is the servant who is marred. The descriptions of him since the early days of the restoration have been sufficient to keep most people from taking a good look at the work he brought forth, even the Book of Mormon.
We used to call people who spread those rumors anti-mormon, but now the church is at the head of the pack in spreading the “facts” about the prophet to their own members, who might be the only ones who care enough to be offended anymore by it.
I felt very strongly that part of the work of the Father will be to confound those who deny the work by rejecting the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph. In the days to come, we will see a reversal of opinion, the servant will be healed.
The Book of Mormon is the means by which the Father will do his work. Those who accept it and its message will be numbered among the covenant, and those who reject it will be cut off. In order for this to happen, there needs to be something that happens.
When I heard the presentation, I thought — This might be that thing. Do I know it? Not yet, I am waiting to see what will be said and printed in the months to come, but it could be the missing piece of the puzzle I have been looking at recently.
The other thing that was said in the videos that caught my attention was about gathering and unity. It makes sense to me that part of the work will involve healing breaches, such as between members of various restoration branches, and even between native American tribes. That seems right to me.
It also makes sense of the passage which says,
“Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice; and with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye. Then will the Father gather them together again and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.”
Those are my thoughts. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have not yet found anything that is contrary to my understanding of the scriptures, but there has not been much shared yet.
It was fun to hear about the objects (plates and sword), but as someone mentioned, those are simply signs. What really matters is whether we are seeing prophecy fulfilled. Right now I am inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt and continue to watch as things progress.
Wow, those videos are interesting. How incredible it would be if it was true. I think if we were to have the traslation of some of the sealed portion, it would be helpful. When you read Snuffer’s translation, it’s so obvious that it is not real.
I thought of the scripture the last shall be first and then first shall be last when considering that maybe the church started out in North America, and will be revealed anew in South America.
When looking at the http://www.centerplace.org I see they have some things like the version of the first vision of Joseph Smith seeing 2 beings. So, it seems to me they have some incorrectness. I wish someone who spoke Portuguese could go to Brazil and really find out what they believe. So fascinating they were told not to join the L.D.S. church. Also that the L.D.S. church had sent a spy and they were trying to get the gold plates. I would believe this.
I don’t see why anyone would do this for a hoax.
He immediately contacted the Zarahemla branch through their website and offered his assistance. below is some of the correspondence
Thank you for your help. I received a phone call from Joseph, and had a wonderful visit with him about scripture and prophecy. He spent 12 years in Idaho a short distance from my ranch in the timber industry… Toward the end of our conversation he suggested that I talk to Bob Moore and also suggested that I make contact with him through you.
Watcher, thought I would let you know that I received a phone call from Joseph Smith and visited with him for 30 minutes this morning.
I watched your video links yesterday, including the previous Sunday’s video of Bob Moore’s preface sermon from Amos and the Old Testament and intimations of Sundays further information…
This morning I emailed through contact info on their website.Brad Gault the Zarahemla branch pastor responded and forwarded my questions and inquiries to Joseph. I then received a call within a couple of hours…
Joseph Smith returned my call inquiry Tuesday October 31,10 AM. I forwarded the emails so it would preface this response. The beginning of my conversation with Joseph Smith I tried to intimate that I am a student of the Scriptures and worthy of his time and actual consideration of my request.
The first question” Is Mariceo’s email available?” He then quizzed me about my knowledge of the great lengths that were taken to procure the plates through stratagem or force from his great grandfather.
He then rehearsed a similar dissertation as he did in his congregational video how Mariceo’s home was ransacked and the LDS implication.
Joseph said Any message to Mariceo could be given to him to forward.
This seemed a little strange to me since they mentioned families and names in the Sunday meetings of virtually all who were baptized. Seems to me and email address would not jeopardize their security anymore than their first names to an entire congregation and world, rather than to an earnest inquirer… at least in my mind.
I told Joseph that I thought to learn directly from the first witness was very important and I was willing to go with my interpreter and friend to Brazil to overcome the language barrier with scriptural understanding and familiarity to make sure all of Moroni’s information was disseminated correctly to the people rather than rely on Google or a young girl who’s been educated in English by television…
My mind went immediately to the story, as I recall the Colesville saints and section 27 revelation sending Joseph to them before going to the Ohio, because they had great faith and they were practicing their understanding of the law according to Acts 2 and he needed to help clarify the finer points to a sincere group before the official revelation of the law was given.
This happening in December 1830 and the law being given after they went to the Ohio in the first part of February… and them being sent to Thompson and the amalgamation of two different mindsets. The train-wreck didn’t last a couple weeks and they were sent on to Zion…
Joseph and Bob lead us to believe this people is similar to the Colesville Saints. Section 68 shows me that a people ready for Zion have isolated themselves from the blood, sins and iniquities of the world and that there children can be baptized at age 8 because they have not been influenced by Babylon.That they have been taught to read through the Scriptures and the requirements of “reception of the word” (2 Nephi 31)and baptism in section 20 can be accomplished at eight years old, unlike anyone exposed to Babylon outside of a stake of Zion that would require fruit meet for repentance, thus an older age of accountability and repentance from the blood and sins of the exposure to the world and it’s condemnation.
Mariceo refused they reported, to learn English so the dissemination of this information to the world came through a child educated by the god of this worlds filth promoter, television and Google translate which I won’t even go into???
Joseph quizzed me about whether I studied the Joseph Smith translation. I then talked to him about section 43 and the deception promised if all of Joseph’s words from God including the Joseph Smith translation were not used to ready ourselves for the second coming.
Also the deception of the 10 virgins in section 45 and again the three ways we can be deceived in section 46 and included the deception in section 50 and 52. I did this without sections because restorationist’s use a different version of the Doctrine and Covenants.
He didn’t really respond and didn’t seem to be familiar with the many deception warnings and indicated that according to Scripture that their fractions were the only ones that had been taken back to Zion for inheritance.
I asked Joseph how familiar he was with the 1833 book of Commandments and the February completion of the Joseph Smith translation,the printing press,the 14 issues of the Star.
I was going to mention chapter 4. “turned over to the buffetings of Satan”and the reasons for the destruction of the printing press. He interrupted me and went on a dissertation that Joseph had a copy and that the story of the printing press and the book of commandments being picked up by the children out of the street was completely false.
I ask him about whether he was familiar with the John Whitmer History and Ebenezer Robinson’s history. He said he had heard of them.I went into Ebenezer Robinson and the edition of the Book of Mormon, he didn’t respond like he knew what Robinson testified.
I went on to a different subject and asked him about false prophets in our day according to Jeremiah 23 and Isaiah, Matthew 23 and headed toward Matthew 24:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. He interrupted and ask if I was familiar with Jeremiah 18? I told him I had it ,what part? He had me read the beginning verses and said that “this is what is happening in Brazil now…So he made it again another vessel,…”
He seemed very familiar with his talking points but not so much about anything I mentioned.
I asked Joseph about his life. He shared about his dad being a Temple lot Church apostle and himself being ordained an elder in the church in 1953, Eventually becoming disenfranchised because they were not interested in the restoration of Zion and building the temple.
I ask him about the break up of the RLDS and Community of Christ and restoration RLDS fractions in 1984 and if it was caused by the leadership being educated in other religious colleges and coming back indoctrinated and thinking protestant believes would be more popular?
He said “that and…” he went into his famous speech to the 1100. He was told by God to give a message( i’m not sure if he said or if I just assumed )to the Temple lot Church he had left,and the RLDS Restorationists he had joined.
He rehearsed similar to the morning meeting Sunday.The mandate from God was to repent, put down their differences and establish Zion. He said “They rejected and would not do it “
I’m going to have to watch the video again to see if he in his brief mention of his sermon that building the temple was included at that time.
The reason I mention this is the old mandate in his message from God to deliver is very similar to the message from the angel now. I’m not sure if this is Multiple witnesses over years or it is a continued desire and reason for him leaving the Temple lot church and then receiving a message from the Lord and now bolstered by the story of an angel on his original complaint???
He asked me what part of Idaho I was from. I told him, he then related how he spent 12 years working as a feller for the mill at Horseshoe bend Idaho, not far from where we farm.
Joseph then told me he had an appointment and that I should speak to Bob more about questions I had. He intimated that Bob was more familiar with some than he.
I ask him how to get a hold of Bob and he said through the pastor.
Joseph seems sincere and very believable.
Just a few scriptures that come to mind, and the Restoration Church. My understanding of sewing new cloth on an old garment or new wine into old bottles doesn’t seem possible that the Lord would use an existing corrupt church,not to say he will not worn them. I know they don’t think they are corrupt ,he quoted the Doctrine and Covenants about their fractions being return to the land of their inheritance.
Christ shows Moroni and he informs us in Mormon 8 also Nephi in 2 Nephi 28 all churches in the last days will be corrupt… “and your churches ,yea, even every one, have become polluted…”
Will the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon be printed by a corrupt church???
I could go on and on but my final assessment is that I have not received from the Lord a confirmation.Until that happens I will await their promise of the sealed portion being translated by Mariceo and delivered to them at the Restorationist Church for printing and dissemination. I then will test it with what I have received through The Holy Word of god.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; The flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
D&C 18:3 … behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written;
D&C 43:2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.
3. And this ye shall know assuredly-that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.
4. But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.
5. And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or Commandments;
6. And this I give unto you that you May not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.
This covers most of the conversation with Joseph. If I can make time I will give my opinion on the meetings and the concerns like the scriptural description of the sword of Laban, and their description and condition of the sword presented, also the interpreters being broken by Mariceo??? And other questions.
Watcher, I wanted you to know that Elder Joseph F Smith called me this morning November 7, at 7:50. He said he called to inform me of a website, second invitation.org.
This call was not solicited nor have I had any contact with him since his first call. Bob ￼Moore emailed me last week and said he would get back in touch and call me for a discussion after his two week trip abroad.
I did take the opportunity to quiz Joseph. 25 minutes
Why was he chosen? Why are these Brazilians given the opportunity to establish Zion?
I asked if our iniquities are the reason for the offering of Zion to another people.
I am somewhat taken back with the call out of the blue…seems so strange, but I’m not sure that he wasn’t just calling from a recall number from previous calls, not sure if he knew exactly who or where I am located.
I am in the middle of seeding grain before frost so when I get some time I will try to put the questions and answers together a little better.
Did you happen to read on the Zarahemlabranch.org website under Question Time,Discrepancies Answered , the responses by Bob Moore to the Book of Mormon rejection letter circulated by Larry Mannering?
In one of your emails you had mentioned Bob Moore’s sincerity and study.
You forwarded me a video that showed a question and answer…
This written (Discrepancies Answered) shows Bob Moore’s views as written better than he was able to articulate them verbally.I was wondering whether this is where you formulated your assessment of Bob’s scriptural understanding?
Watcher I agree with your assessment of scripted and the buying in from the temple lots. You were being generous when you said how many people viewed before Sunday last.
Joseph also or Bob, might be counting on the Orthodox temple lots that would not go along with the rejection of the word.
Somewhat similar to the massive amount of mormons silently rejecting the Salt Lake City’s injection of oxyProtestantism.
This morning when I was questioning Joseph I ask him about many different dates including when he was in Idaho in connection with his leaving the temple lot church, his father, mother, births ,deaths etc. etc. He doesn’t seem to be very good with dates,I could give you the specifics, but just my opinion.
In that date category one thing that I did not realize until my query this morning, Joseph left the Temple lot church very recently, less than five years… He qualified it with that he was not in with them for many years, as when they rejected the Doctrine and Covenants and Joseph Smith translation and included as reasons for his joining the Zarahemla branch.
His answer to why him ?, he said that his priesthood was the purest form from Joseph Smith Junior… His grandfather Alexander Hale Smith and his father Arthur was probably the reason for Moroni’s referral.
Another one of my questions, about iniquity, scripturally being the reason for the Brazilians being offered Zion, to see about his understanding of why… He went back to his story of 21 years since his sermon and its contents being rejected by 1100 and that setting their differences aside and coming together.
Nothing about being sanctified by the word… Cleansed from the blood and sins of this generation, or iniquity being the reason for the separation from God etc. etc.
I also quizzed him more about the sword of laban and plates.
I have been intrigued that he says the plates were smooth no engravings felt by touch, but could be seen. In my inquiry he said that there were some of them that had engravings he could feel toward the end where the seal band was??? Verrrrry interesting…
In the conversation he mentioned again having six more witnesses. I ask how one would be considered, he informed me that it would come from the Lord and said he would put my name in..lol. I replied I could be the witness for the west…lol
I also ask if he was considering taking somebody that was fluent in Portuguese?
He said maybe, but it worked pretty well with Google and a 14-year-old educated by the TV, and again mentioned how he was impressed with her being able to learn English from subtitles
Mr. Watcher my is XXX. I’ve watched both videos, and I would like to add my testimony of what was told.
I believe it with all my heart but saddened somewhat from the q&a session.
There’s still unbelief and what felt like a contentious spirit after what both gentlemen testified of. That blew my mind.
Are we still part of a perverse generation that ask for proof from testimonies that ooze the Spirit of God? Hope some day this will change. As I yearn to be part of Zion.
I’m still processing my thoughts after watching the videos – I expect a month from now my answers will be slightly different than now. But here are my thoughts at the present time:
Claims of seeing the plates, sword, and interpreters.
For me this intellectually interesting, but not something that I can build my faith on. I’m sure Satan can craft some exquisite items too. And since I don’t know what the real ones look like, their testimony of these items can’t be tested.
That being said, I did notice that while each one tended to focus on different aspects of the items, and their descriptions used different terminology, there didn’t seem to be a time where they contradicted each other. Especially during the Q&A session when random questions were asked and they alternated answering them. They hadn’t memorized a common script, yet their differing descriptions didn’t seem to contradict.
In general, I believe they both saw some plates, a sword, and a broken “interpreter”. Whether those items were the real deals or not is another question that I can’t answer.
Claims regarding the Brazilians
“God couldn’t work with us in the north because of our hard hearts, so he is working with the people in the south.” Ouch. But definitely believable. 3 Nephi 21:22-24 opens the door for the remnant of Jacob to take the lead, and we need to be numbered among them if we want to participate. Did a remnant of Jacob make it down to Brazil? We’ll see.
The proof is in the pudding
Until they actually DO THE WORK, it’s all just a story. When they produce new scripture from the sealed portion, and we can search it, compare it, and test it, and pray about it, then I will be in a position to take a stand. Brigham’s Section 132 is pretty easy to detect. Denver’s new stuff is also easy to test against the established word. One day someone will produce something that holds up under scriptural scrutiny – and I look forward to that.
The one thing that really struck me (positively) was the advice they gave to those of us in the north about what to do next. It would have been a perfect time to produce the 10 Step Plan to Prepare for Zion™. And it seemed like some of the people in the audience was hoping for that. Instead, they refused to give a list and told people to stop focusing on differences and just love everyone. Develop the level of charity that the Brazilians have. Do the things you already are supposed to be doing. Nice.
The other issue is that Ether 4 says the sealed portion won’t come out until the Gentiles repent. Have we repented? The previous paragraph would indicate that we haven’t. How many have to repent before God reveals the sealed portion? Are a handful of people in Brazil repenting enough for the Lord? Those are questions I don’t have answers to…yet.
Thanks for sending out your post and the links to this presentation.
I am very happy to have watched all three hours or so of it.
The theme of the message in the videos is repentance and love for God and one another.
Those who delivered are humble and sincere.
This is the message of scripture, delivered in an appropriate, gentle way.
Many patterns I recognize.
I believe the message is divine.
I have prayed about this and will continue to do so.
Like you, I do not wish to be deceived, but as of this moment, I feel as though God’s hand is in this work.
I want to know more about it.
What about you?
I believe that the what is being reported about this group in Brazil shows that the Lord is working with many people. His efforts are not with only one group. When Zion is assembled, it will be many different groups that can live together in love and peace. I thought it was interesting to hear in the question and answer session from Jeff Folley about the representatives from 150 Indian tribes that are also moving forward in fulfillment of their prophecies.
Click on this link to hear Jeff Foli’s testimony about the 150 Indian tribes that are also moving forward in fulfillment of their prophecies
Sorry I didn’t respond earlier so my weigh in could be included in your follow up post. I must confess I found bros Smith and Moore to be very credible. I wish the leaders in Utah were as humble and guileless.
I was very sobered by their testimonies and have been driven to self examination as to my readiness for potential participation in such momentous events and find myself very wanting.
Because of that I’m not sure I can say I was hopeful as much as fearful, and because of that probably more believing than skeptical.
Upon reading your follow up I see that despite the credibility of Smith and Moore, there is plenty to be skeptical of in their testimonies.
I just read Searcher’s Oct 2015 post For a Small Moment Have I Forsaken Thee and Aug 2015 What It Means To Be Sealed and if i understand them correctly, it appears that JS intimated that Elijah would yet come again and restore the sealing keys that were lost when the gentiles rejected the fulness.
I don’t believe that was part of the testimonies of Smith and Moore. I also don’t ever recall hearing from JS or anywhere else in scripture, that Moroni would return with the BOM artifacts to usher in the fulness.
Since you are keeping score on how your readers think\feel about the claims made by Brothers Joseph and Bob concerning their Brazil trip, put me down as an active LDS, neutral, but hopeful.
I believe both Joseph and Bob are sincere and well intended; however, I’m concerned that their desire to reunite the saints and establish Zion, while a good righteous desire, could well allow them to be deceived (just as it could for many of us).
As I have thought and prayed about their testimony, the only inspiration I have received is that I don’t have enough information yet to truly ponder and ask if it is true. We haven’t yet seen the fruits, which will allow us to weigh it against the word of God. So until we do, I will remain neutral.
I have included a list of Pros and Cons for the information we do have.
1) all references in the Book of Mormon for the brass plates and the plates of Nephi, both large and small, refer to the plates being engraven. In fact, Jacob even comments on how difficult it is to engrave on the plates. However, neither Mormon or Moroni mention engraving, rather they talk about writing or have written on the plates. I had never noticed this before, until Bro Bob mentioned that the plates he handled were not engraven but were written upon. So the question becomes did Mormon and Moroni use a different technology to write upon the plates? The three and eight witnesses both mention the plates were engraven. There could be two explanations:
– Webster 1828 definition of engrave also includes “to impress”
– What plates did the witnesses see? I still can’t find any reference to whether the plates of Mormon and the small plates of Nephi were two separate set of plates or one set of plates. Mormon wrote that he put the small plates with his plates. Does that mean that he physically unbound the small plates and then put them on the same rings as his plates, or just put them with his plates. In D&C 10, the Lord speaks as if Joseph already had the small plates or knew of the small plates when he tells him to translate them rather than retranslate the Mormon abridgment. My point is, if the small plates were bound together with the plates of Mormon, then the witnesses may have been referring to those plates when they mentioned the engraving on the plates.
Why I list this as a Pro is that I have read\listened\searched the Book of Mormon countless times, and I would have said with 100% surety that the Mormon plates were engraven as Jacob mentioned. Showing the plates to two experienced believers with writing rather than engraving is such a blatant, rookie mistake, yet if one reads what both Mormon and Moroni wrote, it supports written not engraven for the Mormon plates. (Do a word search for engrave and then written\wrote and you will see what I mean).
2) the interpretation of 2N chapter 3 and JST Genisis 50 that Bob have is as good as any that I have heard. I have always thought that it refers to more than just Joseph Smith Jr. It’s hard to see how the Moses reference is for more than the OT Moses, but it could be dual fulfilment for our time.
3) In both D&C 110 and 124 the Lord bestows on Joseph Smith the same promise\blessing as Abraham, that through him and his seed the whole world will be blessed. I’ve wondered many times what exactly that meant. It could be a fulfillment of that promise if Joseph F Smith turns out to actually be the spokesman that brings the good news to Zion.
4) If the Lord uses the plain and simple to confound the wise and learned, then I don’t think He will find a better vessel that Joseph F. Smith (that sounds a little judgmental, but I meant it as a compliment. I believe him to be a good, sincere, simple man).
5) This would be an ironic twist and a great test for those of us that are 4-5-6 generation members. Really!?!? The Lord called someone from Latin America to be His end time servant?!? The pride of Ephraim would indeed be tested!
6) Isaiah contains multiple references of hard hearts, ears that can’t hear, calling and no one would answer. I found three references where the Lord could find “no man”. It’s not inconceivable we have been so corrupted by our culture\TV\Movies\Entertainment that the Lord needs to go outside of Zion (US) to find someone that will listen and then call us to repentance.
7) Both gentlemen mentioned the sweet Spirit they felt while in Brazil. Since both are mature and well versed in the scriptures, I assume that they know what the Spirit feels like and are familiar with it.
1) Why the sword of Laban? Joseph Smith saw the sword, but I can’t find any reference to him having physical possession of it. And if the sword of Laban, why not the Liahona too?
2) conflicting testimony: Maurico only does as commanded, yet he was commanded to learn English but refused to do it.
3) I can’t find any references to any servant coming from the South. All references seem to be from the East (but then again, that was one of the arguments used against the Savior, there wasn’t any prophesies of a prophet from Nazareth).
4) Joseph’s email is found on the Zarahemla Branch website, so it might not be quite the miracle that they sent him an email as they made it sound.
Don’t know if any of these made any sense to you or not, but as I mentioned above, for the time being I will with hold judgment and taste of the fruit that comes out of it and then let the Holy Spirit be my guide.
Thanks for all you do,
[Complete Rejection: This communication took place in person and I did not record the conversation. It was rejected primarily on claimed discrepancies to the claims they found in modern and ancient revelation.]
[ absolute rejection: This communication took place over the phone and I did not record the conversation. It was based on perceived contradictions in the Book of Mormon]
Hello watcher sorry for my slow response, but I’ve been pondering the testimonies of brothers Smith and Bob since you sent them. My initial feelings are that what Elder Smith says is true and that he speaks without guile, however, something about Bob and whoever was conducting the Q&A session doesn’t sit right with me and I haven’t been able to figure out why.
So, I’ve been investigating the remnant branches movement and their priesthood authority claims. I have to admit that I discounted the whole RLDS movement without investigating them in as much detail as polygamous groups because I knew that they had built a temple in Independence without it being the time or proper place to do so, and because they have recently rejected the Book of Mormon in order to be accepted by mainstream Christianity, thus I never took their claims of authority seriously enough to investigate them.
Hence, I have been investigating their claims in greater detail. On the one hand President Marks joined them in the beginning and he was basically the only one who defended Brother Sydney so I see the possibility that they like the Utah church have some remnant of the priesthood through him.
But weather their priesthood is more pure as claimed by Mauricio I’m not sure yet. So while I hope sincerely that what they said is true and I believe brother Smith, the other testimonies seem somewhat suspect to me because I believe that God would clearly call a prophet or send Joseph to translate the sealed portion based on my reading of the scriptures.
So, I’m left wondering if this is satan trying to gain the temple lot for himself by mimicking the Lord putting forth his hand for the second time. So for now I will keep treasuring the word and wait to see their publication when it comes forth. In any case this shows we are close because it is either of the Lord or of satan, and if of satan he knows what is coming soon and is trying to derail it. If it is of the Lord it will come to pass.
The following documents have been sent to me