[Editorial Notes: It has been a long time since I have shared some notable emails. This series got ahead of me and I lost track of many great exchanges. Some of these exchanges are quite old.
Many very interesting exchanges have been lost in the shuffle. I may go back and try to retrieve some for the next installment if I can. My apologies to those that have had some good exchanges that have not been included.]
Email Exchange #1
“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our
enemies and put them under our feet.”
I was intrigued the first time I read your suggestion that, as Moses had offered to bear the sins of his congregation, so JSjr had done similarly.
You described the scapegoat in the story of the two goats presented yearly for the High Priest to make his selection of the goat to be driven into the wilderness.
Now I’ve not been a student of the Old Testament so I followed along without expending a great deal of energy.
But tonight I read an article which was based on the same OT story, but also included other facts which I wondered whether you had ever considered or rejected. This is actually part 9 of a 10 part series and I only listened to it because it was recommended by Steve Quayle on one of his podcasts. It’s not long, so I copied it off for you. [The article is not included in this post but you can read it here ]
That is a wonderful parallel about Jesus building upon the rock of the watchers… of course, Joseph Smith and the scriptures inform us that the literal meaning is the “rock of revelation”, nevertheless, I love the parallel..
I can remember reading about the evil watchers and wondering if I was ill advised to call myself onewhoiswatching and accepting the nickname of Watcher LOL… luckily there is a positive use of the word watcher in the scriptures as well…
Also, I remember reading about Azazel in the Book of Enoch (although spelled slightly differently than in the OT) and wondering if it was referring to and relevant to the Azazel in the Atonement Statute in Lev 16… it really sobered me up wondering if in fact Joseph could have been an evil demon that did a work of deception, either from the beginning of his ministry, or if he was a true prophet at first, perhaps he fell never to repent after falling from a high and holy calling.
Ultimately, I have concluded that the name is similar in the Book of Enoch but does not refer to the same historic figure.
I think your nom de plume of OneWhoIsWatching (Watcher) is the best name I’ve seen for the type of work you do. It is such a great name that OneWhoIsSearching has given you credit by his close approximation.
The storyline for the 10 episodes is that Jesus came to the earth to die on the cross, not only to redeem humanity, but also to destroy the work of the evil ones.
That statement brought me up sharply because I had just finished working on my poetic rendition of DC 3. There are 12 references where Jesus tells JSjr that “I will” perform something and two more where he says that “will I” also referring to performing a thing.
Word crunching “I will” yields 205 citations to RLDS DC 1-144. But, section 3 makes specific reference to the destruction of the evil works of satan.
2a Verily I say unto you:
That I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing.
This was given in connection with the loss of the BOM pages during the translation effort. The Lord says also:
And thus I will confound those who have altered My words.
9d I will not suffer that they shall destroy My work.
Yea I will show unto them that My wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil.
Two other comments:
1. I was struck by the forcefulness of the repetitive use of “I will” which is stated as a strong, confident warriorlike being. It thrilled me to see that the Lord was so committed to taking charge.
2. I’m attaching a copy of the full section because I have started separating and highlighting the opening Lord’s statements in introducing a particular subject matter. Looked at this way, it is as if the Lord were putting in his own “heading” which again is a great help to the readers.
Finally, I showed this technique to my congregation (small though it may be) last sunday, and they commented that even though they had read section 85 (the olive leaf) many, many times, this time they felt like they were seeing it really for the first time. It’s really fun to share with the saints that which brings renewed excitement about our current scriptures. [DC 3 poetry]
“The storyline for the 10 episodes is that Jesus came to the earth to die on the cross, not only to redeem humanity, but also to destroy the work of the evil ones.”
Very profound observations ….
You have done some marvelous keyword crunching magic in unlocking higher truth.
You have hit on two of my very favorite topics that I have been pondering.
One of the overriding contextual narratives that shows up time and again throughout the scriptures that one needs to understand in order to fully appreciate the plan of salvation is the fact that there must needs be “opposition in all things” ie, opposing forces in all things and that one of the primary reasons we have been sent to this earth life is to overcome the opposing forces.
As I was doing my study of the restoration of the high priesthood I came across several passages and statements from Joseph Smith that address this topic of destroying and overcoming the work of the evil forces… including the the following definition of salvation:
“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death… Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies… TPJS Page 297 & 305
Section 50 was given just prior to the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood for the purpose of preparing the elders for the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In that Section we are informed that those that are “ordained of God” become a possessor of all things and all things are subject to them:
26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.
27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all things; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth,
The topic of “when ‘I will’” is one of Mrs. Watchers favorite topics.
When asked when the Lord will make his move in pulling down the towers of the enemies and destroying the work of Satan, the Lord replied; “when ‘I will’“.
26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth, the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.
27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all thing58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.
59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?
60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth,
Just as attorneys like you have their own secret language that the masses don’t understand, where English words and phrases mean completely different things than commonly assumed, scripture also has words that have a deeper meaning sometimes that need to be searched out.
We have a tendency to take His words for granted in the scriptures and thus, we miss the real deeper intent.
There is POWER in words once they are understood and used properly.
There is a book that you would really enjoy if you have not already read it Ed.
It is called “Written by the Finger of God” by Joe Sampson.
I am providing a few screen shots that pertain to the cryptic key phrase “all things”
Email Exchange #2
The Dispensation of Mercy
I remember reading somewhere in your book or one of your many blogs about the dispensation of mercy.
I cannot recall if it was dispensation of Abraham, because Christ appeared to Joseph and Oliver standing on the mercy seat or if the dispensation of mercy was the last dispensation prior to the dispensation of Abraham.
Here’s why I ask.
I was reading in your book, and you had mentioned that the term “from day to day” is really referring to “dispensation to dispensation”.
You had quoted 2 Ne. 28:32
Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.
Yet the Lord says that he will be merciful unto them. Then I found this interesting phrase, “all the day long”
In other words, all the dispensation long.
So I did a word search for “all the day long” and found these interesting verses.
But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
For behold, after ye have been nourished by the good word of God all the day long, will ye bring forth evil fruit, that ye must be hewn down and cast into the fire?
How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!
For me, I tend to remember that the dispensation of Abraham was one of mercy. And as I follow the scripture chain it looks like that during this dispensation prior to the dispensation of the fulness of times or the ushering in of the 3rd Watch that we are being felt after, or God’s hand is stretched out still and we are being nourished by the good word.
That his mercy can be found by those who take his word to be their guide. But there will be many who will deny him and his word because they put their trust in the arm of the flesh as stated in 2 Ne 28:32 or 31
Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men.
Great string of related passages thank you for sharing
I had two ah ha’s regarding these topics.
One had to do with how the protestants characterize and differentiate between the definitions of mercy and grace
Question: “What is the difference between mercy and grace?”
Answer: Mercy and grace are often confused. While the terms have similar meanings, grace and mercy are not the same.
To summarize the difference: mercy is God not punishing us as our sins deserve, and grace is God blessing us despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mercy is deliverance from judgment. Grace is extending kindness to the unworthy.
Another similar quote from a protestant site is as follows:
“Grace is what God gives us when we don’t deserve and mercy is when God doesn’t give us what we do deserve”
Although there is some overlap in the use of the two terms and there are always exceptions to the rule, I have noticed that when the fulness was on the earth, grace seemed to be the primary emphasis and when the fulness was rejected, mercy seemed to be the reoccurring theme in the scriptures… case in point, even though the term grace shows up more times in modern revelation than mercy, the dedicatory prayer in 109 and God’s response to it in 110 that was taking place during the transition point ushering in the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham pleads for mercy instead of requesting grace-
Doctrine and Covenants 109:34
34 O Jehovah, have mercy upon this people, and as all men sin, forgive the transgressions of thy people, and let them be blotted out forever.
Doctrine and Covenants 109:50
50 Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found;
Doctrine and Covenants 109:54
54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.
Doctrine and Covenants 109:62
62 We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob, that Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed;
Doctrine and Covenants 109:69
69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand.
Doctrine and Covenants 109:70
70 Have mercy upon all their immediate connections, that their prejudices may be broken up and swept away as with a flood; that they may be converted and redeemed with Israel, and know that thou art God.
Doctrine and Covenants 110:7
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house
With that for context, I was struck by the following use of the terms “today” and “day” in conjunction with the term sacrifice in the following passages:
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.
24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.
” 25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.
Those passages came on September 11 1831 just months after the restoration of the fulness.
Before the secret history of Mormonism began to emerge in my consciousness, I assumed “the coming of the son of man” was referring to the final coming of Christ in glory…. and it probably is, taking into consideration the duel fulfillment of prophecy, HOWEVER, I think the passage also had reference to the secret coming of the Lord that would take place about 4 1/4 years later.
The coming of the Son of Man was to be the transition point between a day of Grace when the fulness was on the earth and the day of mercy when the fulness would be taken from the earth and only the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness would remain, requiring us to study the word of God and receive his mercy until the next day change comes. During this time frame that we have been living in, we have not had the opportunity to offer up the daily sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit or enter into the true law of consecration that can only successfully be lived by those who offer up the daily sacrifice.
I think that the above passages were stating that “today”, or, in other words, the current “dispensation” that they were living in was the “time” or “day” when the SACRIFICE OF A BROKEN HEART AND CONTRITE SPIRIT could be offered up and that TITHING (consecration) could be entered into since the fulness was on the earth.
That “day” or dispensation was to come to an end when the Son of Man came to his temple in 1836.
During that next day, marked by the coming of the Son of Man, was to be a day of Mercy since gospel blessings could not longer be enjoyed in their fulness.
Hence the significance of Joseph’s petition when he and Oliver entered into the covenant for the “continuation of [gospel] blessings” to bridge the gape between the rejection of the fulness and the end of the opportunity to offer up the sacrifice and tithing.
Interestingly, an understanding of the significance of this concept ends up being just one more evidence that the false prophets of our day who are claiming the gospel blessing of the second comforter are deceived.
Email Exchange #3
Hey one more question if you don’t mind. I am just getting to your 4 PDF timeline videos on Youtube. I just listened to the first one today. You mentioned that we could email you and ask for the PDF you put together to go with those videos. Might I still be able to get a copy?
Also do you believe Jehovah (YHVH) is the name of God the Father and that he is the God of the Old Testament, and the Yeshua is the name of Christ? I also listen to some of Jake Hiltons stuff and this has been what he has been talking about most as of late so I thought I would ask you in passing.
I have attached the graphic
I believe that Christ and the Father are one in the sense that Christ is the tabernacle of element (or temple) in which the Father dwells. Conversely, the Father is a tabernacle of spirit and flaming fire in which Christ dwells.
This is why we are told multiple times in scripture that they are ONE.
Nevertheless, they have the ability to separate out of each other and to converse with each other and to function as separate and specific beings that can be differentiated one from another which is why there are multiple places in scripture that clearly establish how they can function individually and communicate with each other.
We are informed from the JST genesis that the Father created the Son and that the Father creates all other things through the son.
I was not aware that Hilton was still actively teaching or making videos.. is the stuff you have been listening to recent?
Can you send a link?
Great thanks for sending that.
Very interesting thoughts you shared there on Who God is. Thanks. This ride just keeps getting crazier and crazier.
A couple thoughts on that if you don’t mind just to help me try and piece this together and understand. I listened to video 2 of those 4 videos you had made today and you had mentioned something along the lines of these people that are claiming to have their second comforter experience just may not be the case do to them being able to skip over all the stuff that the early saints didn’t do. I do have some close friends that I have made that the Spirit has lead me to, and they have had this experience and I do believe them. So my thought is in their experiences they have gone to the Throne room, and then Christ has taken them to The Father and to Mother. So any thoughts on that or is it like you said in your previous email ” Nevertheless, they have the ability to separate out of each other and to converse with each other and to function as specific beings that can be differentiated one from another which is why there are multiple places in scripture that clearly establish how they can function individually and communicate with each other.”
In Video 2 today you also spoke of the Morley Farm experience where several saw the Father and the Son.
Would that just happen to be a time where he had separated himself for whatever purpose needed to be filled that day?
So John 17:11 – And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are
So we’ve been taught all our life that this is one in purpose, and will and desire and so forth. So how can we become one with them where we are clearly separate beings than who God is? Hope that makes sense.
So Here is a scripture that may tie into this, or it may not. It is a scripture that is most interesting the way it reads, it is D&C 88:28. It says:
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
So this is something I have been taught elsewhere, that we are more than just spirit and a physical body. That there are more aspects, or bodies that make up the complete us. We are more sophisticated than just spirit and a tabernacle of clay. That these other bodies that make up ourself are out there doing something, we just don’t have full awareness of them yet.
Anyways, I know I am not the clearest writer, and I wish I could explain myself better, but hopefully some of that makes sense. I truly am only seeking truth and greater understanding, and I have come along ways. I do appreciate you letting me bounce some thoughts and questions off of you and to get your feedback with your knowledge.
In regards to Hilton he started making videos again about 2 months ago and has one each week, I really enjoy them actually. He explains his little adventure while he was absent in his first newest one I believe. Here is the link to his youtube channel:
Also is there any other stuff you would rec
ommend me listen too? I have several hours each day that I can listen while I work.
So John 17:11 – And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we areSo we’ve been taught all our life that this is one in purpose, and will and desire and so forth. So how can we become one with them where we are clearly separate beings than who God is? Hope that makes sense.
So Here is a scripture that may tie into this, or it may not. It is a scripture that is most interesting the way it reads, it is D&C 88:28. It says:28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.So this is something I have been taught elsewhere, that we are more than just spirit and a physical body. That there are more aspects, or bodies that make up the complete us. We are more sophisticated than just spirit and a tabernacle of clay. That these other bodies that make up ourself are out there doing something, we just don’t have full awareness of them yet.
I don’t find your questioning to be combative at all. You are asking a really good and important question.
Yes there are lots of scriptures that talk about the importance of seeing Gods face. In fact, Section 76, in my opinion, informs us that all of the elect will see the face of God in the flesh during mortality. (but there are aspects of those passages that are misunderstood, I think the elect that have passed on without having seen the face of God will be returned to the earth and will see God in the flesh)
There are two issues at play here.
The general one has to do with whether or not people (any people) are actually seeing and conversing with Christ and the Father right now.
I happen to believe from my studies that the heavens have become sealed until the appointed time comes and the servants return. The sealing of the heavens has to do with the rejection of the fulness that took place four generations ago. The Book of Mormon informs us that it is through faith that people see God but that the heavens can be shut through a general lack of faith of the people.
My scriptural and historical reasoning for the conclusion that the heavens have been sealed involves countless references that are scattered throughout over 300 blog posts.
I totally understand if you don’t understand or agree with that conclusion and frankly, I don’t see any harm in people desiring to see and converse with God while the heavens are sealed as long as they are worshiping in conformity with scripture and their beliefs are founded in sound doctrine.
The second issue at play has to do with whether or not Denver Snuffer is a true prophet that we need to accept or be damned.
I believe you can discern a true or false prophet by the doctrine they teach.
Again, my reasoning for rejecting Snuffer and related documentation for my conclusions is dispersed through many posts that i don’t have the time to catalogue and explain in detail right now. ( I have been asked by a Snufferite to do a post and detail all of the false doctrines which I may do in a few months)
Suffice it to say, virtually every major doctrine he has introduced has been false.
We can begin with the false doctrine that made him popular and famous and generated a huge following for him.
Many years ago he taught that the LDS church was true and that any baptized member of the church can receive the “second comforter” by simply exercising faith.
He has greatly changed his narrative since then. Instead of encouraging people to get their second comforter he is now telling them they need to start all over and repent of their apostasy and get the true baptism and enter into a new covenant with God, etc.
The chronology of events and teachings association with the Snuffer movement is one continuous contradiction.
I have shown that the fulness of the priesthood must be on the earth, that a person must first enter into the gate through the true water baptism followed by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, and that a person must then receive the “first comforter” and prove that they will follow God at all costs.
Next, a person would need to receive their calling and election BEFORE Christ himself would ever visit and reveal the mysteries of the universe to someone.
The huge mistake that Snuffer made on that doctrine is in assuming that ALL visitations of Christ ( including Joseph Smith’s first vision) fall under the definition of the “Second Comforter” which is not true.
Christ does and has visited people before they received their calling and election and received their Second Comforter visits wherein the mysteries of the universe are revealed.
An example of that is in the case of Joseph Smith and the “first vision”. The First Vision that took place in about 1820 was not a “Second Comforter” visitation. Joseph did not even receive the “first comforter” ” until 1832. ( See D&C 88:3)
The other false doctrines taught by Snuffer are to numerous to list but they include stating in his book that no authority from God is necessary to perform a baptism… then he later decided that people needed to be endorsed by seven women to have priesthood authority to perform baptisms, etc. He teaches that the historicity of the event documented in Section 110 is questionable. If he was a true prophet he would authoritatively declare one way of the other whether it is true or not. ( he would declare that it is true) [editorial note: Snuffer has since received a revelation substantiating that section 110 did take place but changing the content thereof]
He teaches that celestial polygamy as taught in section 132 according to his interpretation, is a true doctrine
He teaches that Abraham’s patriarchal priesthood is a higher order of priesthood than the Melchizedek Priesthood.
He recently taught that his inspired version of the Testimony of John the Beloved (Gospel of John) is the fulfillment of the “record of john” that was to come forth according to section 93. The “record of John” in section 93 is actually referring to the record of John the Baptist.,
In his inspired version of St John he deleted at least three of the things that Joseph revealed in the Inspired Version of the Bible
I could go on and on but don’t have the time to list everything and elaborate.
These are just my opinions.
Obviously, if your inspired study of scripture and the history of the church reveals to you that Denver is the Lords true servant then of course you should heed his worlds.
I only share my opinions.. I have no desire to be anyone’s guide. The Holy Ghost should be your guide
Another Response in this Exchange
I am still studying out your view on the Godhead vs. what we’ve been taught our whole life. I know you touched on the Father and the Son being one, and I did read Lectures on Faith, 5th lecture, where it described the Father, and where it described Christ as the tabernacle. I am curious how D&C 130:22 ties into that:
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
Does this tie into what you are saying, they can each have their own body and be separate if they/HE/GOD wants? or can be one entity if HE wants? Or is the Father only Spirit with no body, and Christ is God in Tabernacle?
I think you know what I am asking hopefully. Wish I was more capable of being clear, but I will see what you respond with if you have a sec.
Section 130 has been proven false.
Under the direction of Brigham Young, Orson Pratt is the one that inserted section 130 into the Doctrine and Covenants, HOWEVER, if you research the whole content in the proper context, Joseph Smith was correcting Orson Hyde for teaching the false doctrine that the Father has a body of flesh and bones.
You can verify this by going to the Joseph Smith Papers Project and looking at the original
I have covered this in past posts, including this one
Here is a email from the searcher covering this topic:
P.S. You should check the comments section of my blog on King Follett. Josh left an amazing reference from the JS Papers which indicates that Joseph was actually correcting the false doctrine taught by Orson Hyde, namely that the Father has a body of flesh and bones that has since become D&C 130:22.
A great post on the background as to how we received D&C section 130 can be found here: http://latterdaywitnesses.com/you-ought-to-have-to-choose/
To quote directly from that post — “where did section 130 come from?”
Elder Orson Pratt and Elder Orson Hyde added it to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1876. It came from a series of talks that Orson Hyde gave in the presence of Joseph Smith in 1842. Some of the items that Orson Hyde spoke on were not accurate, such that it required a private correction by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, Volume 2 page 324, on April 2, 1842, Joseph recorded:
“Elder Hyde I am going to offer some corrections to you. Elder Hyde replied – they shall be thankfully received. – When he (Christ) shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he (Christ) is a man like ourselves. – (Parenthesis added).
This is consistent with the Lectures on Faith. The Son (Christ) is a man, a ‘tabernacle of clay’. Just like us. However, later on, Joseph records the following on page 326:
“There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven. Before the foundation of the world upon which all blessings are predicted and when we obtain a blessing it is by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated. Again reverted to Elder Hyde’s mistake. &c the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. – and a person cannot have the personage . It may descend upon him but not to tarry with him.— (Bold and Italics added)
“So the clincher here, the way Joseph Wrote in his Journal is he elaborated on “Elder Hyde’s mistake”, by writing. “&c”. I had to look this up, but &c is another way to write Etc. Normally we would write this after the sentence. However, Joseph Used it before the sentence, in fact it starts the sentence, listing Elder Hyde’s mistake. What was Elder Hydes mistake? Amongst other things (&c): the Father having a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans the son also and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit. I assert that Joseph was trying to lay out to Elder Hyde, that to know God, you must know correctly about God. Then preceded to correct his errors, which errors, he listed for us in his Journal.”
“In Lectures on Faith, Joseph Smith Clearly states that God is a SPIRIT OF GLORY AND POWER, and further that the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE MIND OF GOD.”
joshsaid:October 4, 2016 at 10:01 am
the Joseph Smith Papers captures this incident with Joseph correcting Elder Hyde on the Godhead: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-2-10-march-1843-14-july-1843/50
Section 130:22 was one of the things at odds with those brethren on the committee that decided to remove the Lectures on Faith from the D&C in 1921 without a vote. They felt that the description Joseph gave of the Father in lecture on Faith chapter 5 (?) was at odds with what was in section 130:22, which apparently was added to the D&C sometime after Joseph and Hyrum were slain.
This is really awesome and really shows just how easy it is to inadvertently mistake notes from Joseph correcting Orson and how it literally can change the entire trajectory of belief of all of us!
Email Exchange #4
“..your lack of integrity and filtering comments is appalling”
I’ve given up on Adrian and his blog.
This was my last post after he sensored me again.
I can no longer take this blog nor its content creator seriously.
Adrian, your lack of integrity and filtering comments is appalling.
For someone who proclaims to “love the truth” your willingness to defend the Denver Snuffer from the accusations of being a false prophet to the point where you filter comments from your readers that challenge Denver has led me to believe that both you and he are not only deceived but maliciously trying to deceive others by not allowing the truth to be told.
Regardless of your fear of the scriptures exposing you, the truth will stand on its own.
Frankly, it is difficult to take any of the growing number of Snufferites seriously who try to defend what Snuffer has taught, particularly the ones who claim to have received the Second Comforter, which includes continuous ongoing visitations of instruction into the mysteries by the Savior.
To the credit of Anonymous Bishop, he seems to allow at least some differing views on his blog- Here are some from a recent post that are notable-
[I realize that providing these links can increase readership to a blog that I think is dangerous and promotes a false prophet, but, people who read this blog are grown ups and should be able to discern truth from error]
Email Exchange # 5
“I appreciated you pointing out what the “new covenant” means in other scripture”
In a recent post you disagreed with Snuffers interpretation of D&C 84: and said that it is not referring to the Book of Mormon and revelations Joseph brought forth as being a literal covenant that the saints were to enter into.
I appreciated you pointing out what the “new covenant” means in other scripture, but could you please explain away the actual wording of those passages because I can see how they might appear to be stating what snuffer says they are saying.
I think a contextual reading of the passage in view of everything previouly said in scripture about the “new covenant” and the book of Mormon (which includes a detailed description of what the “new covenant” is), indicates that this is what was meant:
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant [by repenting and receiving the baptism of water, fire and the Holy Ghost], even [as it is contained in] the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written
In the above passage I have provided clarity by making some insertions.
To verify the above interpretation one only needs to do a simple keyword search of the term “new covenant” to find that it is always referring to the covenant with Christ and never refers to the written word.
“Of course, once you entertain the possibility of multiple mortalities,
other sacred cows are up for debate”
Back to the original topic, related to multiple mortalities. For some reason, this concept has appealed to me since I took a world religions class 25 years ago. Our culture seems to value “upward mobility”. There is something to be said for those who can find value in living well any class of life they are born to. Our drive for wealth and honor probably take us in the exact opposite direction of eternal salvation. My concept of reincarnation involves living best the life I have, knowing my reward or punishment is coming in the next life. I cannot imagine eternal punishment, but I can imagine being born into an abusive family as a consequence of abusing my children. Whether it is real or not, it helps me to treat others the way I would want if I were in their place. It also makes sense to me that we can’t possibly experience everything in one life. Just look at how long Adam had to get things right! If I incorporate Buddhist belief, when I finally learn to transcend the fallen man, to stop lusting for the chains of hell, I can get off the wheel. (In that case, the path of Christ and spiritual rebirth is really the only viable way to do it because the spirit we die with is the same one we take with us to the next life.) The Buddhist concept of bodhisattva is similar to what we have been talking about with the return of the servants. These are people who obtained enlightenment and have earned the right to “get off the wheel” who choose to come back to mortality again to help others find the path also. As far as I know, they don’t necessarily have power to do miracles, or remember who they were, they just have the ability to lead others by their example because they have already found the way themselves.
You talked about the justness of whether someone lives in a time of available light or only darkness. It seems to me that God is content to let things go for the most part. letting people learn through experience, little by little. Unfortunately, that usually leads to a time when they will be universally destroyed. Then the window of light opens, the prophets warn of coming destruction and repentance. A few are saved, most are not. If there really are only certain times when the opportunity to ascend is provided, then there must be other chances for people to learn and try again. God intends to save as many as will hear his voice. During the Millennium, those who didn’t make the spiritual mark won’t get a chance to mess it up for everyone else. When they are finally allowed to return, the millenium ends with major warfare before the earth is burned. Somehow we do believe that children who die young can be raised in the millenium, but we don’t believe in being born more than once. I’m not really sure how that works. Nor does it seem fair that some people will live and die at a time when Satan is bound when so many others have been lost because they live in times of extreme spiritual darkness on the earth.
Of course, once you entertain the possibility of multiple mortalities, other sacred cows are up for debate, like the idea we just came to earth so we can have a body, and that our spirits look just like our physical bodies. Appearances could be a matter of choice, like what clothes you choose to wear each day. Joseph Smith taught spirits are composed of matter already, it is more refined. So, we want to permanently trade refined purer bodies for the ones we have? I don’t know that is an upgrade. It could just be these bodies are our only means to experience opposition, which is the refiing fire that upgrades our spiritual bodies. Or, the privilege to interact with matter as matter, rather than energy and light is the blessing we were wanting.
Multiple mortalities also calls into question our concept of eternal families as a permanent form of our earthly families. What would be the point if you have had several family situations, and if we are all children of God anyway? I tend to think we were put in family groups before we came, and the test is to see which will not wipe themselves out before this term of earth’s probation is finished. That is why Abraham was promised his seed would continue. For me, the family provides a workshop to refine us. We can practice on a small scale the skills needed to build Zion. I don’t think the Lord ever intended for us to focus on the family to the exclusion of the rest of humanity. The Nephite and Lamanite Zion started falling apart as soon as they brought back the labels. One of the tricks we need to learn is to see and think of “others” as “family”. Even better would be to see Christ in everyone and act accordingly, but that is asking for a bigger leap of imagination.
I suppose there could be a point where a husband and wife are “sealed” in some manner, in the course of multiple lives, but the majority probably wouldn’t want to be. It seems to me that we lure men into the idea by telling them that’s the only option other than eternal celibacy, and we tell the wives to hang in there because any husband who is celestialized will be worth keeping forever, no matter how flawed he seems now. Besides, the alternative is to be a servant to other couples who took the forever marriage track. I know you have talked about composite beings, but couldn’t it just as likely be that through marriage, each half develops the strengths of the other half, so you become two complete beings instead of just one at the end?
Well, that’s enough of my off the cuff ramblings. As you can tell, I didn’t back up anything with scripture, and you probably won’t see any of this on any comment sections. It is helpful to me to try organizing it into some kind of sense instead of letting it roll around in my thoughts in random bits. I would appreciate any other thoughts you have either is support or to refute it. At this point, none of these beliefs are solid. I’m kind of waiting for the record of Jared’s brother to straighten me out, since I doubt the church will change its polygamy based family doctrine any time soon.
I once knew a fundamentalist fellow who quoted the scripture “how long can rolling waters remain impure?” and he opined that the scripture was referring to the fact that just as dirty water becomes pure over the process of time rolling over rocks, the imperfect and unclean soul also eventually becomes clean and prefect over the process of multiple probations. He felt that EVERYONE, even Satan would eventually become clean and pure.
At the time, I thought that was a beautiful way to explain and justify the doctrine of multiple probations.
Many years later I have come to the conclusion that his theory contradicts most of what the scriptures teach and denies the power and purpose of the atonement. Frankly, I don’t think it is a good way to describe the fulness of the Gospel that is described in the scriptures.
I think the warning in the Book of Mormon, that “today is the day of your salvation” to those who live when the fulness is on the earth is very literally and justified. There is a window of opportunity that needs to be taken.
I have come to the conclusion that there are three differing gospel laws and that the concept of multiple probations is not congruent with the highest one. Probably not with any of them, but definitely not with celestial law as described in scripture.
My sister was recently asked to speak at a women’s conference at BYU on the topic of the atonement. She was given 20 minutes for her talk LOL.
She asked for some suggestions pertaining to how the atonement interrelates to gospel law.
My brother and I referred her to section 88 and pointed out that it refers to three gospel laws, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial. Shortly after making reference to those three laws, that section specifically mentions Mercy, Justice & Judgment.
I speculated that those descriptives refer to and describe the three gospel different and distinct laws.
Much of the content in my “be ye therefore perfect” post is built around those concepts with emphasis on the celestial law aspect.
For me, the highest gospel law of Mercy and Grace represents a mystical process of becoming clean and perfect through God’s perfection, not our own works, and is not compatible with the multiple probations theory. Indeed, the essence of the fullness of the Gospel is in putting our faith in God’s righteousness to cleanse and transform us, instead of our own righteousness letter of the law works.
The concept of multiple probations makes a lot of sense to those that are focusing on the gospel of works and on becoming perfect through our own efforts, however, those that realize that it is through the mystical and merciful perfection of Christ and HIS righteousness that our fallen souls can be made perfect realize that multiple probations are not necessary and the doctrine marginalized Christ’s atonement.
I don’t think that it took Adam very long to get things right once the fulness of the gospel was preached to him because he relied on God’s perfection not his own works.
The works that saved him was his humble repentance and reception of the spiritual rebirth offered through Christ’s infinite sacrifice and atonement.
One of the most beautiful and revealing aspects of the gospel that was revealed through Joseph Smith is the account of Adam’s baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No treadmill or gospel of self improvement, or multiple probations necessary for him.
I think the reason it feels like a long grueling process to us is because the church we grew up in lives and teaches terrestrial law. We have not experienced the true, full mystical baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost that is described in the scriptures.
We have not experienced the spiritual download of comprehending all things within a split second of God’s grace like Moses experienced.
We have been fed a constant diet of the Stephen Covey- Tony Robbins type of Positive Mental Attitude and gospel of self improvement where all of the emphasis is directed on our own hard works where the glory is directed at the human spirit and the human effort to excel. We work and work and work to gain an inch of self mastery over a long and grueling process of time.
you said: “It seems to me that God is content to let things go for the most part. letting people learn through experience, little by little.”
I agree that it feels that way now because we are living during the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham, not during the fulness. We are basically left with the letter of the law since the saints of the restoration rejected the spirit of the law and the fullness thereof
You feel that If there really are only certain times when the opportunity to ascend is provided, then there must be other chances for people to learn and try again.
I feel that way to.
But I don’t think multiple probations is the answer.
Multiple probations is fear based and works based and it does not give adequate credit to the mystical atonement and the mystical process of miraculously changing the natural man into a new creature through the power of the atonement instead of personal improvement.
The doctrine of multiple probations glorifies the natural mans ability to overcome adversity over time through the process of increasing in knowledge and hard work, instead of acknowledging that God’s supernatural power can instantly overcome adversity in a split second.
I suspect part of the answer is in all people physically returning to the earth during the final wrapping up scenes. Perhaps that is why the term “preparatory redemption” is used to refer even to those few people that appeared to be in a saved condition during this probation. It appears as if God’s work has not been completed and that there are still a few more surprises to be unfolded during the Marvelous Work and the dispensation of the fulness of times.
Perhaps God is going to provide a way for all of us that have come to this earth life to experience what everyone else in this earth existence has experienced during the last 6,000 years… by proxy with some kind of mystical download.
At any rate, i have come to the conclusion that the law of Mercy has more to do with submission to God’s will and putting off the natural man through the grace of Christ’s atonement, than personal improvement through hard work over the process of time.
Email Exchange #7
“One of the misconceptions among most of the LDS fringe groups is that God will one day FIX his broken apostate church”
One reason i enjoy reading your material is because you weave church history, especially early church history, into your scriptural analysis and interpretation.
I’ve learned things I’d never heard or considered before. If I understand correctly, revelations from Joseph Smith had to be approved and recognized as such by the general body of the church before they became scriptural canon.
Did this practice continue after his death?
I believe BY still did it, albeit after the move west and only the more loyal faction of the saints were there to endorse it.
When did this practice end?
Your question presupposes that God continued giving revelation to the Brighamites to be canonized following the death of Joseph Smith.
It is my opinion that during the Nauvoo period, probably in 1841, the saints were rejected as a church with their dead.
God still acknowledges all of the remnants of the LDS restoration movement who believe the book of Mormon as remnants of his people, but following the rejection of the church with its dead, the fullness of the priesthood and the fullness of the saving ordinances had been removed out of their midst and God has hidden his face from the world.
One of the misconceptions among most of the LDS fringe groups is that God will one day FIX his broken apostate church (referring to the church organization that had been restored through Joseph Smith). Following that, the great work will continue to spring forth from the apostate church after it has been FIXED.
Many fundamentalists believe this.
I believe this is a lie that will cause many to stumble when the true servants return.
Bishop Koyle of Dream Mine fame falsely taught that Joseph Smith would one day return and make his appearance during an LDS general conference in which he would officially release all of the corrupt general authorities and institute men of God. In this manner Joseph Smith is to “set in order the house of God”
After fixing the apostate church in said manner, the great work of restoration would continue from the fixed church .
I believe this false teaching comes from a misinterpretation of the following passage in Section 85
6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.
You will notice from the above passages that the one mighty and strong (see also Isaiah 28) sets in order those whose names are found enrolled in the book of the law of God.
There is not one person living today whose name is found enrolled in the book of the law of God. This is because the law of God was rejected by the latter day saints during Joseph’s ministry along with the priesthood keys to live the law of consecration which is an integral part of the law of God.
The latter day saints are not living the law of God. Most have no clue what the law of God is.
The first thing God’s mighty and strong servant will do when he and his associates return is to restore the law of God upon the earth and invite everyone to repent and gather to Zion.
This will not be done through the apostate church although there may be some of the elect who will repent and gather out of the apostate church to accept and live the law of God when it is restored to the earth.
Prior to being rejected as a church in 1841, the restored church had been condemned in 1834, meaning that they had been censured, relieved of their priesthood keys, and sentenced to the punishment of being delivered over to Satan for a little season.
There is a big difference between being CONDEMNED vs. being REJECTED.
From the 1828 Websters the following words are defined thusly:
CONDEMNED, pp. Censures; pronounced to be wrong, guilty, worthless or forfeited; adjudged or sentenced to punishment.
1. The act of condemning; the judicial act of declaring one guilty, and dooming him to punishment.
For the judgment was by one to condemnation. Romans 5.
2. The state of being condemned.
Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation. Luke 23.
3. The cause or reason of a sentence of condemnation. John 3.
REJECT’ED, pp. Thrown away; cast off; refused; slighted.
Just as God cast ancient Israel out of his sight anciently, he has cast off the apostate latter day saints and turned his face from them and he has given them their delusions.
Everyone who is claiming that the church is still relevant in providing the saving ordinances or that it will once again provide the saving ordinances, is delusional. Those claiming that all of the spiritual gifts are still available including calling and election and the reception of the second comforter are delusional and deceived.
Notable Emails #28- “Why do we need prophets and apostles when they refer us to scholars for doctrine and church history understanding”Notable Emails #27 “what makes you so sure JS was not just a charlatan from the beginning?”
Notable Emails #22 “My prediction is that those who accept the gospel of Bill Reel (non-literal historicity of the Book of Mormon) will ultimately either loose all of their faith…”
Notable Emails #21 ” I don’t believe the current LDS Church has ANY “authority” – especially BECAUSE they preach that the culmination of the Gospel is the Masonic Rituals..”
Notable Emails #19- “Sometime ago I had an extraordinary experience where I was forgiven of some of my sins”
Notable Emails #17 “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.”
Notable Emails #15: “It would be so hard to do if we didn’t have the word crunching software available to us to use. Now I can see why so many are deceived. “
Notable Emails #14 (a) “Baptism for the dead is illogical and pretty much impossible to ever accomplish”
Notable Emails Part 13 “Gileadi compares the Servant to Hezekiah, in that he answered for the temporal sins of the people and acted as a proxy savior”
Notable Emails Part 12 “the scriptures will become corrupted and deceive the elect and give Satan power”
Notable Emails Part 9 “My number one desire right now is to protect my wife and honor her tender feelings about the gospel as she understands it.”
Notable Emails Part 6: “Can anyone tell me anything about this blog?… This guy seems to have some new ideas I’ve never heard before using the scriptures to back his views.
Notable Emails Part 5: “the truths that both you and I hold so dear …are things that cannot be taught they can only be revealed.”
Notable Emails- Part 3 “Have you ever read ‘Letter to a CES Director?’” Yes… and it has strengthened my testimony!
Notable Emails- Part 2: “Readers deserve to know if you truly are a heretic or just a faithful divergent thinker”