Notable Emails #28- “Why do we need prophets and apostles when they refer us to scholars for doctrine and church history understanding”
[Editorial Note: I get many emails from readers of my blog sharing their thoughts and asking my opinion about historical and doctrinal matters. This series provides selected email exchanges that may be of interest to the general readership. I do not share email conversations if you request that I don’t. I can be reached at onewhoiswatching [at] gmail dot com ]
Email Exchange #1: “Why do we need prophets and apostles
when they refer us to scholars for doctrine
and church history understanding?”
It makes me wonder, why do we need prophets and apostles when they refer us to scholars for doctrine and church history understanding.
Also, he hits hard on why you would never search for an answer to a medical problem online. Yet he fails to make knowledge that web M.D. And DocResponse are some of the largest medical resources on the Internet for providing medical diagnostic to people who have questions about their symptoms.
Not to mention Dr. Sears and Mayo Online.
I know as a father of young children I’m checking online a lot to see if what my child is experiencing is serious or not.
I think this might be a generational thing.
I was thinking about this again this morning.
Ballard says that when we can’t find answers to seek out competent professors of religion to help with the hard to understand doctrines.
Then he turns around and says not to search online for answers to tough gospel questions.
It’s crazy how when people strive to know Christ and deepen their relationship with him that he becomes a stone of stumbling and rock of offense for the church (see Isaiah 8:14).
This is in part because the church and its leaders aren’t fulfilling that role. Which causes its members to seek those that say they have familiar spirits who communicate to them. These peeping wizards are leading many of the would-be faithful away because they’re not seeking God for themselves, but relying on the arm of flesh to do it for them (see Isaiah 8:19).
Email Exchange #2: “Are we left to seek Justification?”
“I have a question about the Doctrine of Christ regarding our time in history. If we don’t have the true baptism, and can’t enter in at the gate, than are we left to seek justification until the Lord returns his servants to the earth?
Great question.. In this series I will be addressing mercy… grace…justification …. sanctification … and election 🙂
Email Exchange #3: I give him 2 1/2 Brownie Points
Great post. Some very good points about how we bind heavy burdens to us thinking that it’s what Christ wants when he would have us leave all that behind because his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
I read this and intellectually it makes sense, but I’m not sure.
Going to D&C 5: verse 14: “And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness—clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.”
It is a description of the Lord’s Church. The Lord’s Church is “clear as the moon, fair as the sun.” The words “clear the moon” means they meet the description that is given in Doctrine and Covenants section 76 describing those who have the glory of the moon as their inheritance. “Fair as the sun” is described in Doctrine and Covenants section 76, and describes those who will inherit the celestial glory. That is how He describes His Church. And they will be the only ones who will be able to stand at his coming. The minister for those in the terrestrial glory is the Son, meaning the Son of God. (D&C 76: 77) Who intends to make many sons of God. And in the celestial glory the fullness of the Father dwells.( D&C 76: 92) And so the Church which He owns, which He calls “mine,” that He intends to bring out of the wilderness of darkness and confusion and into the light by which they can understand things of God is necessarily composed of those who have sufficient knowledge to be “clear as the moon, fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.”
Before I address the snippet you asked about from one of Snuffers lectures, I want to address what he said in the previous paragraph. Note the following:
“The hand of Joseph is still the hand we ought to be looking at if we want to know what God’s word was for our generation. You have no clue how thoroughly we have supplanted the words given at the hand of Joseph Smith”
Denver is exactly right about that.
And yet, when asked by his followers how to baptize, he directed them to a protocol in the Book of Mormon instead of the protocol given from the Lord to our generation through Joseph Smith!!!!!!!
In part two of my current series I am going to show that despite how important and profound the Book of Mormon is in detailing the points of the Doctrine of Christ to the Nephites, there are a few very significant modifications that the Lord has made for the dispensation of the Gentiles during Joseph’s time. I will show how modern revelation ALWAYS TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER THE BOOK OF MORMON ANY TIME THERE IS A VARIATION.
I have previously shown the significance of the listing of the spiritual gifts given to the House of Israel compared to the listing of gifts given to the Gentiles.. In the two listings there are some very significant differences. This is why it is critical to always use gospel protocols from the D&C over any protocols in the Book of Mormon with regard to the gentile church.
The fact that Denver gives lip service to the importance of following the words and revelations of Joseph Smith and modern revelation, he blatantly disregards the protocol in section 20:37 in favor of the Book of Mormon protocol.
My guess is that he doubts the veracity of 20:37 and therefore disregards it as a thing of Naught just like he has discarded section 110.
It is somewhat understandable. Denver is basically doing what Oliver Cowdery did when the saw section 20:37 and commanded Joseph in the name of God to take it out of the D&C. It is one of many HUGE indicators that Denver picks and chooses what parts of modern revelation he wants to accept and often questions or rejects modern revelation in favor of the Book of Mormon…
Ok, the bottom-line of what Denver is saying in the first part of the snippet that you sent me, as I read it, is that the restored church that Joseph Smith was and will be instrumental in bringing forth out of darkness is going to inherit a terrestrial inheritance.
In other words, the passage in section one, according to Snuffer is referring to terrestrials that according to the section 76, are deceived by the craftiness of men.
As a general principal, when the Savior speak of “his people”, and to “my own”, he is often referring to those that will inherit a terrestrial inheritance. For instance, the following passage is a good example:
3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.
As you can see, “my own” refers to the Jews that rejected him, and yet after their pain, he will own them and reign over them as they inherit a terrestrial glory.
Hence I give Denver two and half brownie points for dancing around a true principle. HOWEVER, he is completely torturing the passage that he is speaking about in section one. And he completely gets it wrong.
“And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness
clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
This description will show up another time in the dedicatory prayer to the Kirtland Temple in section 109. It is a description of the Lord’s Church. The Lord’s Church is
clear as the moon, fair as the sun.
” The words
“clear the moon” means they meet the description that is given in Doctrine and Covenants section 76describing those who have the glory of the moon as their inheritance. “
The Lord is NEVER “well pleased” during this probation with the actions of the terrestrials.
The passage being addressed is referring to the elect of God.
The revelation was given during the revelatory sweet spot during the short 3 ½ years that the fullness was on the earth. Joseph and others had just received the Melchizedek priesthood and were in the process of getting their callings and elections made sure and being sanctified.
Furthermore, the passage in question has a dual fulfillment and is referring to the return and rising up of the elect when the Marvelous Work begins. When I get time I will break these passages down using some keyword searches etc.
Denver totally missed the boat on that one.
Don’t have time to respond to the rest of his statement… I am off with Mrs Watcher to jog off some of the fat I have acquired as a result of my lazy gentile lifestyle…
Whether or not Denver gets some things right or not is not the point. False prophets teach lots of truth.. according to some accounts they teach nine truths for each falsehood they teach.
Denver reads the words of lots of other people voraciously and then modifies them for his own purposes. and puts his spin on them…
He got himself into a lot of trouble years ago by stealing what i was saying in blog about the church being rejected with their dead in Nauvoo… He began blogging about it and included it in his book, as a possibility, but then began to back off of it because he realized that if the church had been rejected with its dead in Nauvoo, there would be no restoration to preserve and he would be exposed as a false prophet.
Some concepts he gets correct some he gets wrong… the question is, did he see and converse with God 15 years ago. Has he continuously been taught by Christ during the last 15 years, and if he has, how come he waffles back and forth on so many issues and gets so many doctrinal issues wrong and why does he reject the doctrine of the three watches that is so clearly demonstrated in the scriptures if the Savior is personally, continuously teaching him all of the time? He is a wannabe.
Got to run… keep sending me the Suffer heresies to debunk.. LOL
Email Exchange #4:”Does one need to be rebaptized in order to receive the baptism of fire…?”
I just read your most recent post on the doctrine of Christ. Quick question:
Does one have to be rebaptized in order to receive the baptism of fire and enter through the gate of the straight and narrow path? If so, by what authority? If the previous baptism in the LDS church is valid (whether at age 8 or in the form of a convert baptism), what steps are required to be born again and experience the baptism of fire?”
It is my opinion that when the servants come and bring in the last restoration, every one of us will be required to be baptized by the proper authority before we can receive the full baptism of water, fire and the Holy Ghost.
The preparatory baptism offered by the corporate church and the fallacious baptisms being offered by the false prophets that “snuff” at word of God are not adequate.
I have proven in many past blogs that the church was rejected with their dead in 1841. The thing that makes a tribe of people a church, is the saving ordinances of the gospel. When the Lord was telling them they would be rejected as a church, he was telling them that they would no longer be able to provide the saving ordinances of the gospel. You will note that directly after the church was rejected with their dead, Joseph only got one more canonized revelation after the saints were rejected. As Joseph petitioned the Lord to know what his will was, he erroneously referred to the rejected church as “saints”. however the Lord corrected him-
Section 125 was received in March of 1841. In that revelation Joseph asks the following question to the Lord:
“What is the will of the Lord concerning the saints in the Territory of Iowa?”
In reply to Joseph’s question, the first thing the Lord does it correct Joseph Smith and note that those who had been rejected as a church and were now on probation. The Lord notes that they call themselve by his name and points out that the rejected church were only “essaying” to be his “saints“!
“Verily, thus saith the Lord, I say unto you, if those who call themselves by my name and are essaying to be my saints..”
Here is what the word essaying means:
“Trying; making an effort; attempting”
if they will do my will and keep my commandments concerning them, let them gather themselves together unto the places which I shall appoint unto them by my servant Joseph Smith, and build up cities unto my name, that they may be prepared for that which is in store for a time to come”
As you can see, the saints were on probation. First they had to keep his commandments concerning them. Only after they repented and became obedient could they gather to the cities that Joseph would appoint. It becomes apparent that the saints at that time were no longer worthy of being calling by his name or being called saints. It also becomes apparent that the passage will be fulfilled in the third watch when God’s repentant saints become “prepared for that which is in store for a time to come”
Nevertheless, despite being rejected as a church, a tribal kingdom had been set up with patriarchal priesthood, the commission of the Twelve apostles to take the KNOWLEDGE of the fulness of the gospel to the world was still valid and that is what the church has been doing for the last four generations. they have been taking the KNOWLEDGE of the gospel to the nations of the world via the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. ,
I do not believe anyone is entering into the narrow gate and becoming sanctified at this time… although many people are having manifestations of the spirit which is preparing them for the return of God’s servants, the emergence of additional records, the final restoration of God’s church, and the Marvelous Work and a Wonder.
This is just my opinion… you need to search these things out for yourself.
Email Exchange #5:”Those who repent are Christ’s church?’
Every time I run into a follower of you know they say while they’re not a member of the LDS church they’re part of Christ’s church.
They quote D&C 10:67 and say they’ve repented and come unto Christ. Not to mention that section 10 was given before the church had been restored or established in 1830.
Just what does it mean to come unto Christ?
And what is needed on the earth for one to come unto Chrsit?
D&C 10:67 says “Behold this is my doctrine, whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me the same is my church”
I think they are grossly misinterpreting that passage. They are interpreting it to mean that you are a member of Christ’s church as soon as you repent and therefore the believers back at that time were members of Christ’s church even before it was officially restored nearly a year and a half later.
I suspect that I have been guilty of making the same interpretation of that passage in years past.
But in my recent searching I have come to a very different conclusion.
That is not what it is saying.
If you keyword the terms “doctrine of Christ” and “my doctrine” in the book of Mormon, you will find that these terms mean much much more than just repentance and attempting to get closer to Christ in a relationship. They actually include the saving ordinances. Perhaps one of the most plain and detailed explanation of what the doctrine of Christ is, is found in 2 Nephi 31
These terms appear to be synonymous with the “fulness of the gospel” which includes faith, repentance, and baptism of water, fire and the Holy Ghost.
In other words you have not come unto Christ until you have entered through the strait gate into the narrow path. repentance and baptism represent the strait gate and the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost represents the narrow path-
“For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. 18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.”
One more thought.
The prophet Joseph Smith said-
“The Holy Ghost is a revelator,” and “no man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith , 132).
I personally don’t find any of the Snufferites to be revelatory including Snuffer himself. Stating that the Holy Ghost has testified that Snuffer is a prophet is not revelatory in my opinion and that seems to be the extent of their revelatory powers.
Snuffer himself suffers from the same problem that the brethren suffer from in that he is usually so boring and juvenile in his observations except when he proclaims that he has persuaded the Lord into changing the order of the priesthood to require the approval of seven women….
Since the church was rejected with its dead over 160 years ago, what part of the “restoration” is Denver “restoring”?
If you do find Snuffer or any Snufferites to be revelatory and profound, then you definitely should take their claims very seriously.
His follow up
The biggest turn off from Denver is his hard sell.
If you close your minds to my message and harden your hearts, you’ll be held responsible at a later day when God comes to judge this world. You’ll be left behind wanting, knowing that you could’ve accepted this offer to come unto Christ today, by one of his chosen and called servants. I didn’t choose this, but God asked it of me and I must obey. Just as he’s asking it of you and yet you won’t.
There’s some pretty sophisticated language patterns being used to intimidate and bully people into accepting his message. Nothing that a trial lawyer worth his weight wouldn’t already know and use in his chosen vocation.
My Follow up
where does that quote from Snuffer come from his blog? his book? an email to you?
It’s an amalgamation from all of his talks combined. I kept hearing the same pattern over and over at the end of each talk.
Here are few quick searched that I did in 40 Years of Mormonism and you can see it’s all there.
If you will receive it, faith in Him comes by hearing the word of God. Not by a pretender, not by someone guessing, not by someone offering up their theory of how the scriptures ought to be understood. Faith does not come by hearkening to someone citing you a bibliography. Faith comes only by hearing the word of God delivered as He would have it delivered, by whomever it is that He may choose to deliver it. If you receive God’s word sent by someone He sends, then you might have faith, and that too in the Son of God. Then you also might receive Him. But if you will not, if you will harden your hearts, if you will blind your minds, if you will not receive what He offers from His mouth in your day, then you do not have faith in Him. You will fall short of that faith required to become His son and His daughter. It is that way, it has always been that way, it will always be that way. There is no other test. Therefore, either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I’ve said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril! It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I’m a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I’m saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I’m talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing. I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine.
Alma 12: 9-11 that talks about if you harden your hearts you get less. But if you’re heart is soft and open, you get more … You are the regulator that determines whether on the one hand you get more, or on other hand if you get less. Some of those who have come today with a hard heart are going to find themselves being condemned in the day of judgment, because you are given an opportunity to have a soft heart and you elected knowingly not to do so. Can you imagine your shame when you, in a council that will include those present today, come back from this experience and confess, “Yes, I was there, but I didn’t believe. Yes, I was there, but I wouldn’t accept it.” None of us would vote to sustain you in the coming eons, in the coming experiences after this probation, none of us will want you to be a minister to bring salvation to pass for others. None of us will then have confidence in you. Soften your heart now. Today is the day of salvation. This is the moment you came down here to face. The test is underway, the challenges are in front of you. You better have ears to hear. God will judge you, but more importantly, you will judge yourself.
yes I remember some of those statements now but I had forgotten how desperate sounding he is. He is pulling out all the stops to get people off the fence. It must be frustrating to have thousands of listeners and readers of the books but very few who will actually commit and get baptized again.
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the number of people who are actually getting baptized again and vocally proclaiming him to be a true prophet is actually very small. probably less than 500. It is very difficult to tell for sure.
It seems like there are about 20-30 Snuffer bloggers trying to make a lot of noise on the Internet but I sense that his total following of truly committed and faithful followers is less than 500 and probably significantly less than that… not that it matters one way or the other. I only bring it up because he sounds so desperate.
Joseph Smith once said if you can’t accept my doctrine accept my hospitality… and yet I guess there are other times when he prophetically sounded the warning voice…
Email Exchange #6:”Brian Hales Claims Section 22 Dissolved Joseph’s Marriage Covenant to Emma!”
I saw this post on Facebook:
Serious question for Mormon scholars and historians.
D&C 22:1 states that “Old covenants” are “done away” with the advent of the new and everlasting covenant. Faithful LDS historian Brian Hales uses this as a way to justify polyandry, considering those old worldly marriage covenants to be null and void once temple marriage/sealing arrived – that way Joseph is not considered to be married to other men’s wives.
Joseph Smith original marriage to Emma would have been done away in this manner too, then.
D&C 132:61 states that under this new and everlasting covenant:
“if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified;”
So, since Joseph’s marriage to Emma was “done away” – then the spouse from whom Joseph was required to get consent for subsequent marriages was his first wife under the new and everlasting covenant.
This means that Joseph would have had to have the consent of 16 year old Fanny Alger to take on any subsequent wives (were it not for the Law of Sarah exception)
Critics seem to be astounded that Joseph didn’t tell Emma about his numerous plural wives. It turns out that it was none of her business because until May 1843 – she wasn’t technically his wife under the new and everlasting covenant.
What was Emma during the period up until Joseph’s sealing then? A woman he lived with and had carnal relations (and children) with, but unmarried. A concubine. Also allowed in D&C 132:37-39
Bless his heart.
The amount of scriptural gymnastics that the true blue Mormon apologist scholars employ to justify section 132 and the Mormon practice of polygamy is astounding. Can you please copy and paste his entire snippet? Or was that it?
Section 22 is exclusively talking about the new and everlasting covenant of baptism as per the remainder of the revelation. The context was that some new members of the church did not think they needed to be re-baptized since their protestant pastors had already baptized them.
The phrase “all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing” is obviously talking about all old baptismal covenants that have not be performed through the restored authority that John the Baptist had just restored.
The revelation seems to be pointing out that all previous Protestant baptisms in that age by well meaning believers would have been done by lineal priesthood under the “law of Moses” and thus would have been deemed “dead works” (verse 2 & 3) Verse 4 points out that baptism is how one enters into the strait gate.
The revelation came shortly after the church received the “articles and covenants” of the church which provided the correct protocol of ordinances of salvation and identified the proper priesthood authority in which baptism could be administered.
The JST would provide clarification to the statement that the “new and everlasting covenant of baptism” WAS FROM THE BEGINNING by pointing out that Adam received the new and everlasting ordinance of the baptism of water fire and the Holy Ghost and preached the gospel to his posterity from the beginning. (Adam was not a polygamist according to the Standard Works BTW)
It is amazing that Brian continues to be so ignorant concerning the context of church history and the revelations that Joseph got.
I have debunked the false doctrine of celestial polygamy in countless different ways including a recent post showing my interaction with the folks over at the Interpreter in which i demonstrated from sections 84 and 88 that Joseph Smith had his calling and election made sure in 1832, long before any temple rituals or the practice of celestial polygamy reared their ugly little heads. Hence the practice of celestial marriage could not possibly be a necessary practice for salvation.
It sure is comforting to know that according to Brian Hales, Joseph was not committing adultery on Emma since his marriage covenant was dissolved in April of 1830. Unfortunately, if what Brian is saying is true, the Joseph and Emma were committing adultery by continuing to live and have sex with each other after their covenant was dissolved. LOL
Email Exchange #7 “Did you see Log’s “F bombs on JustandTrue?”
Did you see that exchange on the justandtrue website the last few days…hours? That guy Log is way out there! The stuff he was saying to an Adam and a Johny was unbelievable. And they responded pretty well. Just went to send you the link in the comments section but seems the website owner just took off all the comments. F-bombs all the way. Who is this Log??! Holy &@/€!!
Wish there was a way to see thise comments…hilarious stuff!
WOW.. although the comments were taken down, I was able to see them through the following site. This is a guy who is instructing everyone else how to become sanctified like himself LOL
[A response I got in response to part one of the Doctrine of Christ series]
“Let’s just assume, for purposes of discussion, that Mormon temple worship is the very highest form of worship and earthly progression toward God that one can aspire to on this earth.
Let’s also assume that a human alien from another planet arrived here knowing nothing of Christianity, in general, or Mormonism, in particular.
He is given a copy of our standard works and two years to read and study them in depth and distill from them the core essential principles of our faith and that we aspire to in our efforts to follow Jesus Christ.
He is asked to devise a set of threshold questions to determine whether somebody should be admitted to temple worship.
What are the odds, that he would come up with –
– strict adherence to the word of wisdom (“given not as a commandment but as a principle with a promise” and not even to mention its modern day interpretation),
– scrupulous payment to the church of a full 10% of all income, and
– an unqualified affirmation that one does not “support, affiliate with or agree with” anyone whose “teachings or practices” are different than “the Church’s”?
I guess just one more evidence of why the living prophet is so much more important than the dead ones!”
LOL Amen Bro
Email Exchange #8: “Which day is the Sabbath”
Watcher we have friends that think we should worship on Saturday, have you written anything on this?
[Editorial Note: This is from a recently returned missionary who read my blog while on his mission]
Watcher! My mission email expired. So I can be reached here now. It’s been 2 months. Coming home has been quite the ride.
I had a good talk with my dad about how polygamy has nothing to do with the actual gospel; and another conversation with my mom, with regards to how God has always been God, and that anything outside of that was false doctrine.
Both of them are very receptive to all of it. However i think if I got into anything deeper it would cause problems.
Since being back I’ve been having gospel-related conversations just about every day. I work at XXX XXXXXXX and speak to many people. It’s been great to share my faith without it having to seem forced, which is the feeling I think people most times get from LDS missionaries.
Thanks for your example Watcher! It’s because of you I began to really search the scriptures. And because I searched the scriptures I really know where I stand with everything. I loved your last post about the doctrine of Christ. Now that I’m perfectly aware of our awful situation and what prophetic events will take place, I find myself focusing much more on how I need to prepare myself. I’ve been reading the gospels back to back.
Still reading blogs though! It looks like DS followers are missing the LDS church after all…
“I believe I can do more good from within the LDS Church than I can from outside the Church. I miss the temple. Of course I recognize it will probably be years before the First Presidency decides I am worthy to have my temple blessings restored.”
–Tim Malone [latter day commentary] Nov 29, 2015
I find it profound that he misses the temple…
It used to baffle me, how Snufferites could be right about so many things, yet so terribly wrong in accepting Denver in the first place. Rock Waterman is an example to me of someone who seems so close…but yet completely misses the mark. He knows the LDS church isn’t true– I don’t get why he doesnt move on. Everyone seems so…stuck. So now I realize there all in the same boat as any run of the mill LDS member. Whether it’s Monson or Denver, all of them are severely mixed up and confused. I honestly feel like the temple is very definitive in determining who’s got a clue and who doesn’t.
Anyway, enough from me. I know your busy. Hope all is well.
Hey it is great to hear from you. It sounds like you are adjusting just fine and still spreading the good word! Tht is an amazing post by Tim WOW.. I agree that the temple really does provide a great clue as to has a clue and who does not. That said, I respect a person that can reconsider things and I respect that he wants to be where he can be of more service and that he wants to try and salvage his marriage etc.
Take it easy on you parents… no need to rock the boat right now..I love that you are searching the scrips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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