Notable Emails #25 “Can I ask you for some help with chapter 27 in 2 Nephi?”

Email #1

Can I ask you for some help with chapter 27 in 2 Nephi?  This whole chapter screams 3rd watch to me until I get to  vs. 21 & 22, ” Then shalt thou seal up the book again, and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men,”

this sounds more like the 2nd watch.

I went back to read the chapter again to see if there was a clear break when the lord is speaking about 3rd vs the 2nd watch, but I couldn’t find one. When I went back I found that vs 9 – 14 sounded like they could fit with Jospeh in the 1800’s , however vs. 15-19 didn’t seem to fit the 1800 events of the Book of Mormon.

So I’ve read again and again, but ‘m just not seeing it? If this chapter is all 3rd watch how does vs 21 -22 make sense, why would the book be sealed up AGAIN? If some of the chapter is 3rd and some 2nd I could see that, but I don’t see definitive lines drawn?

Thoughts? 

Thanks

My Reply

Great catch and great question.

I wrote a detailed post on this years ago but I cannot find where the post is LOL. I wish I would have developed some kind of catalogue by topic.

Anyway, I was able to find a graphic I created for the blog post. I am going to include that graphic in this response while I keep trying to find my old blog post.
The bottom line is that portions of the plates are brought forth three separate times. first in the 2nd watch, then again at the first of the third watch to provide a test and a great polarization between the believing and the unbelieving when the Marvelous Work begins, and finally after the righteous repent later on in the third watch.
This is such a great topic that I will probably do another post on it one way or another.
Let me know if the graphic provides an ah ha or if it just muddies the waters and needs more explanation
gp
Follow up from me
I found one of the articles having to do with it
http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2010/04/vapors-of-smoke-in-foreign-lands.html
Her Reply
THANK YOU SO MUCH!! It’s funny how even when I think I’m reading my scriptures without any preconceived notions I still find myself at times holding onto old teachings.  It is such a clear and simple chapter. I knew from the start it was speaking about the 3rd watch, so lesson learned, read and believe!!!! Thank you for sending me the blog post and the diagram. 
Email #2
Watcher! 

Isn’t there a third option (to the two preserved in the blog post): the intercessory atonement? Or have I misunderstood the concept? 

[with reference to Are You Calling Joseph Smith a Liar?]

My Response
I am not sure I understand your question. Can you elaborate?
His Reply
Sure!

Adrian, the man behind “To the remnant” is of the opinion that Joseph never practiced polygamy, but that subsequent leaders have ascribed that behavior to him in order to justify their own sins. He also seems to imply that anyone that believes that Joseph was a polygamist and deceitful about it should expect today’s leaders to be the same.

But, as I’ve read your blogs and about Joseph’s intercessory atonement, it seems possible that he took upon him the sins of his people, and therefore engaged in the practice of polygamy. This could mean that Joseph did practice polygamy, lied about it but wasn’t a liar in God’s mind since he did it because of the offering he gave the Lord.
If i need to elaborate more, please let me know!
My Response

I agree with Adrian in that Joseph Smith, the man, was not a liar. It was not in his nature to lie.

My contention is that by 1832, Joseph became sanctified through the oath and covenant of the priesthood and had his name enrolled in the book of the names of the sanctified. Then, as a holy man, the Lord used him and others to provide an acceptable offering that included an intercessory atonement offering in behalf of latter day Israel who had, collectively as a church, rejected the fulness.
Because of this intercession, the sins of Israel were placed upon the intercessors. Hence Joseph Smith was outwardly acting out the sins of latter day Israel as a part of his calling, not because was inherently an evil man or a liar. . This same thing happened with Moses. Moses offered himself as an atonement offering for Israel and then he sinned before the Lord and was prevented from entering the promised land.
If Biblical polygamy or Celestial polygamy were part of the fulness of the gospel, they would have had to have been taught and practiced in the church during the 3 1/2 years during which the fulness was on the earth. The Lord would have provided a public revelation on it and it would have been clearly spelled out.
The reason Adrian and others have a hang up about this is because they don’t accept my interpretation of the prophecies relating to the atonement statute in Leviticus 16 and 2 Samuel 7. They apparently don’t believe that Joseph provided an intercessory atonement offering for latter day Israel.
If I did not accept those prophecies as relating to Joseph Smith, I would have to agree with Adrian and others because I do not believe it was Joseph’s nature to lie or commit any serious sins.
I would appreciate it if Adrian would take the time to debunk what I have written about that topic.
I appreciate and admire Adrian’s loyalty to the character of Joseph Smith
His Reply

  I see!

So there is a third option (as it oftentimes seems to be), that is: Joseph could’ve practiced it and not been a liar (if I understood you correctly)!
Thanks!
[further clarification not sent in an email]
I think I may be partly responsible for some of the confusion on this topic because of my poor ability to explain the prophecies relating to Joseph Smith. When not specifically speaking about the Biblical prophecies referring to Joseph Smith, I have possibly been guilty of implying at times that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet, without providing the prophetic narrative about why he fell and explaining that the sins he was committing were not his own but were the sins of the people he was providing an intercession for.
Email #3
Watcher,
I tired to post your last blog response on the anonymous polygamy essay over at Adrian Larsen’s blog. 
Your post was perfect for the deception he’s involved in. However, I’ve been blocked. 
😦
My Response
Wow that is really low budget that he is not willing to allow other views and opinions…. sad
Email #4

Thank you for getting back with me so quickly….

One more question that I’d like you’re thoughts on. In your opinion is Denver Snuffer a false prophet through and through, or could he have a message from Christ himself as he claims, that being that rebaptism is required for those who will be part of the true zion? I ask this because I wouldn’t have recently awakened to the knowledge that the current LDS church is in apostasy without the help of a good friend who is a follower of Denver Snuffer. He is convinced that Snuffer is a true messenger from Christ. I have investigated Denver Snuffer’s claims by reading his first lecture, nearly all of his blog, PTHG, and his lecture on Polygamy. I find that he teaches a lot of truth, but in my opinion also some false doctrine. I don’t believe that a true messenger would teach any false doctrine. Rather I think a false prophet would offer a great deal of truth, but would mix in key false doctrine to deceive even the very elect. 

I have read through your rebuttal of PTHG and it was very informative. I actually took detailed notes on what was put forth in the book as I was reading it and noticed some key false doctrines, such as his bogus definition of how one progresses from belief to faith to knowledge (knowledge only coming from a visit by an angel or Christ himself). He defends that position from the Book of Mormon, but upon reading the passages he sites in defense of that idea it doesn’t hold water. Of course one can receive knowledge without a heavenly visitation. Also in German the words faith and belief are the same word Glaube. 

I’m a torn between my concerns about Denver Snuffer’s teachings and my fear of damning myself by rejecting a true messenger of the Lord. I guess for me the jury is still out on Denver Snuffer. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

My Reply

I have decided to not provide my response to this fellow at this time and I have asked him to not forward my reply to anyone. However, this is his response to my reply

His Response

Thanks for taking the time to break all that down about Denver Snuffer. Those where pretty much my thoughts about him, but I guess I was trying to leave the door open that he might be a true messenger just in case. Funny you should mention what you did about observing what kind of spirit is leading my friend. I have noticed that there is something off about him, especially when you look into his eyes. I had the impression he was being deceived about Denver a couple of days after I initially started to really wake up. I guess a part of me was desperate to latch on to a new true prophet and I hoped that inspite of my impression that Denver was that man. It certainly would be nice and much easier if he was. Your email just confirmed what I already new in my heart, but couldn’t quite bring myself to completely admit, and that is that Denver Snuffer is a false prophet. Now I can put him and his claims behind me and move forward. The Holy Ghost has confirmed that this is right. I will keep our conversation between us (accept for perhaps showing your email to my wife one day when she’s ready. Thanks for all your help.

Email #5
Watcher,

I am going to purchase your book for my husband for Christmas and was wondering if the only edition available is the first? I found the link and password to purchase it but just wanted to confirm that is was the only one available before I purchase it. Please let me know.

Thank you

My Reply

I am so sorry the new edition is not done. I have had a real mental block and have had several distractions and don’t know when I will get it done. It is possible that it will be done in a few weeks but I cannot promise. If you decide to purchase the existing one now, send me a screen print of your receipt and I will mail you the updated one free of charge when it becomes available.

Thanks
[This offer is good for all subscribers of this blog]

Notable Emails #24 “I recently awoke or at least have begun to awaken. Since August I’m no longer blindly following the brethren and traditions of the church.”

Notable Emails #22 “My prediction is that those who accept the gospel of Bill Reel (non-literal historicity of the Book of Mormon) will ultimately either loose all of their faith…”

Notable Emails #21 ” I don’t believe the current LDS Church has ANY “authority” – especially BECAUSE they preach that the culmination of the Gospel is the Masonic Rituals..”

Notable Emails #19- “Sometime ago I had an extraordinary experience where I was forgiven of some of my sins”

Notable Emails #18- “I wake up every morning with this intense feeling that we are getting closer”

Notable Emails #17 “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.”

Notable Emails #16 “the Lord wouldn’t give a young church such responsibility so early”

Notable Emails #15: “It would be so hard to do if we didn’t have the word crunching software available to us to use. Now I can see why so many are deceived. “

Notable Emails #14 (b) “who was the legal heir and successor of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.?”

Notable Emails #14 (a) “Baptism for the dead is illogical and pretty much impossible to ever accomplish”

Notable Emails Part 13 “Gileadi compares the Servant to Hezekiah, in that he answered for the temporal sins of the people and acted as a proxy savior”

Notable Emails Part 12 “the scriptures will become corrupted and deceive the elect and give Satan power”

Notable Emails Part 9 “My number one desire right now is to protect my wife and honor her tender feelings about the gospel as she understands it.”

 

Notable Emails Part 8 “Who are the Jews and Gentiles?

Notable Emails Part 7 “My eyes have been opened”

Notable Emails Part 6: “Can anyone tell me anything about this blog?… This guy seems to have some new ideas I’ve never heard before using the scriptures to back his views.

Notable Emails Part 5: “the truths that both you and I hold so dear …are things that cannot be taught they can only be revealed.”

Notable Emails- Part 4 “I have now caught the spirit of watching along with you and others.”

Notable Emails- Part 3 “Have you ever read ‘Letter to a CES Director?’” Yes… and it has strengthened my testimony!

Notable Emails- Part 2: “Readers deserve to know if you truly are a heretic or just a faithful divergent thinker”

Notable Emails Part 1- Mormon Missionary: “I too am watching”

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