Notable Emails #15: “It would be so hard to do if we didn’t have the word crunching software available to us to use. Now I can see why so many are deceived. “

“Watcher,

I was studying D&C 88:52-62 about the Lord visiting different kingdoms. It brought me to OP’s remarks on the Lord visiting other planets. I don’t believe that theory. 

So I tried to make sense of it. 

If the Lord’s time is 1,000 of our years to equal 1 of His days then 12 hours for him would be 500 years to us or roughly 42 of our years for every hour He visits. 

Still nothing. LOL. 

I also stumbled upon JS’s remarks at the April 1844 conference. On April 8th he shared that all of America is Zion and that the scriptures support this. 

Have you found that to be true in your research?

At first blush I can’t see that being the case. That both South and North America are all Zion or the gathering place with Independence being the central location. 

Another thing that caught my attention is that JS make reference to the Lord giving Moses Aaron and that the Lord has given the Saints the Elders to be JS’s mouthpiece. At this specific point he names Elder Adams. 

“He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it. I have been giving Elder Adams instruction in some principles to speak to you.” (April 8, 1844.) DHC 6:318-320.

There’s SO much here that I have in the past just taken as scripture because the prophet uttered it. I can’t tell you how many things I’m having to re-examine and truly rely on the spirit to teach and confirm for me. Not an easy thing. Sometimes the heavens just feel like they’re mute on the subject. 

Anyway, no need to reply just passing along some of my thoughts and recent findings. 

“R”

My replay

 

“Interesting observations and questions

Just 10 years ago I hung on every word uttered in all of the Nauvoo Discourses that Joseph gave. I am now seeing things much differently.

It is interesting how in the early Kirtland era, Joseph had been commanded to receive revelations and Sidney was commanded to prove the revelations from the scriptures.

Although Joseph was allowed to expound on the revelations, it was primarily Sidneys responsibility to do so because he understood the broader context of the revelations from the Holy Scriptures. He was not only much better as an orator, he understood the scriptures much much better than Joseph.

However a transition took place.

Something happened in Far West and Sidney went silent for five years.

It appears to be at about the time when Joseph publicly disrespected Sidney and humiliated Sidney in front of the army of Israel whilst they were engaged in wrestling matches on the Lord’s Sabbath.

From about that time forward, Sidney became silent and perhaps out of necessity, Joseph took the lead role of orator and teacher and eventually became somewhat of a prolific speaker, although he never held a candle to Sidney in his style and persuasive abilities.

I am not convinced that Joseph was ever commissioned to take over Sidney’s role as the chief teacher of doctrine.

During the last several years, I have begun to see additional issues with some of the things that Joseph taught in Nauvoo.

Obviously he was deceived with regard to polygamy and masonry and certain things he taught in the King Follett Sermon about the nature of God, but I don’t think his mistakes can be limited to those things.

For example, I have previously demonstrated that Section 124 was given AFTER the saints had already started building the Nauvoo Temple, which supports the my contention that the overall narrative of Section 124 is referring expressly to the boarding house, not the Nauvoo Temple.

I frankly cannot find one verse in the entire section that has strayed from the topic of the Boarding House and switched to the Nauvoo Temple.

I have also shown that after section 124 was given, the Saints on the building committee were using section 97 as the divine commission to build the Nauvoo Temple.

The problem with that is that 97 mandates the building of the temple with the “tithing of the people“.

“Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people.” (D&C 97:11)

In other words, the saints needed to be living consecration and the fulness of the gospel and providing consecrated funds to fund the temple building project, yet, when the high council approached Joseph in Nauvoo, telling him that they were ready to re-implement the law of consecration, he told them the time was not right.

Hence, I think that either section 97 was erroneously being used as the mandate for the Nauvoo Temple OR it was the appropriate mandate, but it was not being followed properly.

In my opinion, the temple mentioned in section 97 needed to be built by those holding the fulness of the priesthood and living the fulness of the gospel, while the boarding house was a preliminary temple that could be built with patriarchal priesthood, with the ultimate goal of coming out of condemnation and restoring once again the fulness of the priesthood to the earth.

I am now frankly beginning to think that Joseph got ahead of himself on the Nauvoo temple and that the Boarding house of the Lord was really the only house God was commissioning at that time.

It looks like the Nauvoo Temple was the result of the abominations that the people were involved in, which is documented in section 124.

It never made sense to me that God was so urgent for two separate temples to be built in such a small amount of time.

Clearly the saints were dual minded to begin with, building their mansions and their masonic temples while trying to build the temple of the Lord in a “sufficient” time frame.

It simply does not make sense that the Lord was having two very different temples, requiring different priesthoods built at the same time while the fulness of the priesthood had been taken away from them.

Secondly, with regard to the Nauvoo temple, I have never felt good about all of the graven images of things in the heavens (sun moon and stars) that were put on the Nauvoo temple because that violates Gods commands in the OT that have never been revoked

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Exod 24
 
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Duet 5
 
Not only were those graven images forbidden, but the criticisms of skeptics claiming the use occult images and pagan images are probably true.
nauvoo images 2
Pagan Graven Image of the Sun God employed in the building of the Nauvoo Temple.
My point is that God had promised that he would cover the eyes of the seers and deliver his people over to Satan. I think that he was doing that in Nauvoo and therefore, I scrutinize EVERYTHING that Joseph did and said in Nauvoo very closely to see which of it is congruent with God’s word and which is not. “
His next response:
.
I am doing the same. It would be so hard to do if we didn’t have the word crunching software available to us to use. Now I can see why so many are deceived.  JST-M 24 

22 For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.
25 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert [SLC]; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers [holy of holies]; believe it not.
23Behold, I speak these things unto you for the elect’s sake;
37And whoso treasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall come,
39So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors;

I wonder why much of what we teach about JS comes from the Nauvoo period?

The stuff that really sets us apart from other Christian faiths.  Like the plurality of gods, polygamy and patriarchal priesthood temple ordinances. Most, if not all, contradict the previous revelations.


It’s like what we know and remember of JS isn’t really who he was or what he taught. It’s an image in the form of the world that we esteem. Much of what we understand in general about him has been a fabrication into a religious characterization of the Prophet for people to love, trust and revere.  

Not to mention the LDS church attacks its own doctrine.  

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2475803-155/mormon-bishop-dismisses-teacher-for-using#sthash.rDypOF8r.gbpl&st_refDomain=m.facebook.com&st_refQuery= 

Crazy times indeed. “

That last link provided by “R” reminded me of some comments got several weeks ago by a lady we will call CC which I will share at this time:

Because the comments were closed in “The History Essays Addressing Controversial Issues”, I’d like to offer the following regarding Priesthood restrictions to the seed of Cain, omitting any remarks or quotes from Brigham Young, whom you dismiss as a valid source of legitimacy. Please address your opinion of the following:

Moses: 7:22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

Book of Abraham in Pearl of Great Price: “”Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.”

Joseph Smith Jr. said: “I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind—wholly unacquainted with the gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then to name certain passages from the Bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon the matter as the fact is uncontrovertible, that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation, and walked with God.

And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude! ‘And he said cursed be Canaan: a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem: and Canaan shall be his servant.—God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem: and Canaan shall be his servant.’ (Gen. 9:25–27.) Trace the history of the world from this notable event down to this day, and you will find the fulfillment of this singular prophecy.” (Apr. 1836, in Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 290; paragraphing omitted.)

“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species.” (Joseph Smith Jr., 2 Jan. 1843, “History of Joseph Smith,” The Deseret News [weekly], vol. 5, no. 52, edited by Albert Carrington [Great Salt Lake City: 5 Mar. 1856], p. 409; also History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 5, introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City, Utah: Published by the Church via Deseret News, 1909], pp. 217–18.)

“The notion of amalgamation is devilish!—And insensible to feeling must be the heart, and low indeed must be the mind, that would consent for a moment, to see his fair daughter, his sister, or perhaps, his bosom companion, in the embrace of a NEGRO!” (Oliver Cowdery, Apr. 1836, “The Abolitionists,” Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 300.)

In the Book of Ezra, we read that “the people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. … O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments, which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.

Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons. … And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? O Lord God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.” (Ezra 9:1–2, 10–12, 13–15.)

“The curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before Him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do His own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel.” (Joseph Smith Jr., Apr. 1836, in Latter-day Saint’s Messenger and Advocate, vol. 2, no. 7, edited by Oliver Cowdery [Kirtland, Ohio: Published by F. G. Williams & Co., Apr. 1836], p. 290.)”

 

My reply:

“Thank you for you comments and the quotes that you provided.

If you know anything about me then you realize that my foundation is the holy word of God in the scriptures. Secondly, to the extent that their words are congruent with scripture, I also consider the words of modern prophets such as Joseph and Sidney. I am even willing to consider something that Brigham Young and his apostate brethren of the Utah Saints said if and when it happens to be consistent with the word of God

Let me share an observation with you regarding the three scriptural supports that you have offered to back up your supposition about priesthood restriction.

All three of them are not only pre New Testament, they were also made prior to the scattering of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel among ALL of the heathen nations.

Why does this matter?

Because CONTEXT and TIMING is everything when it comes to this particular topic.

You see, prior to Israel being scattered, it is true that the chosen had been kept separate from the other seedlines and commanded not to mingle with them. Sadly, they did eventually mingle with the other seedlines.

Things have changed since those ancient times and after Israel was scattered.

Satan thought he could thwart the gospel plan by getting the chosen seedline to mingle with the other seedlines among the gentile/heathen nations.

But the God of Israel, who is always several steps ahead of old Scratch has told us that he will mystically gather his chosen seed from among ALL nations in the latter days despite the fact that they will be packaged in tabernacles of varying colors.

Because of the traditions of his fathers, Peter made the same mistake you are making when he had a prophetic vision to prepare his heart to take the gospel to the gentile/heathen nations.

“Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
nd there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.”

Of course it was contrary to the law Peter had been taught to eat unclean animals and furthermore, the deeper meaning of the vision was that Peter was to take the Gospel to those that had previously been labeled as unclean and unworthy of the Gospel.

Hence Peter sought to instruct the Lord, or, at the very least, show the Lord that he was holding fast to the law that he had been taught. therefore Peter exclaimed:

“Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.”

But Peter was in for a huge rebuke and paradigm change

” And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Cæsarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Paul also understood this great secret as he began preaching the gospel among the gentiles declaring that God “hath made of one blood all nations of men

If you will search the New Testament, the Book of Mormon and the D&C, you will not find any scriptures the support the supposition that the separation of seedlines and associated laws pertaining to that fact still apply. Quite the opposite. We are now informed that the wheat and the tares are all mingled together and that color of skin and supposed seedline is not the requisite for participation in the gospel or the priesthood. The gospel is available to all who believe and the priesthood, when the true gospel is on the earth, is determined by prophecy. Indeed we are informed that the seedline of Christ is composed and identified by the following parameter:

“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?” Mosiah 15:10-12

When Jesus was approached by the hypocrites that could show their lineage from abraham, who no doubt had the appearance of being white and delightsome, he exclaimed to them

“ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep..”

He then declared that the sole qualifying attribute that identifies a person, regardless of the color of their skin as one of his elect, is that they hear His voice and follow him:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

So, I agree with the passages of scripture that you provided, when read in the proper context , realizing that they referred to the ancient times when the two general seedlines had been kept separate. However things had radically changed.

With regard to the statements of Joseph Smith, which were given in 1836 and 1844, I can also find statements by and his close associates that seem to contradict those, which were given during the early Kirtland era in the midst of the revelatory sweet spot of the restoration during a time when Blacks were given priesthood under his watch and full knowledge. However it is not necessary for me to take the time to dig through my notes to find them because the four standard works have made it very clear what the truth of the matter is on this subject.

Thank you for a thoughtful question and for visiting the blog!

 

Advertisements

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: