Miscellaneous Musings 2/11/2014

Miscellaneous Musings Number 2/9/2014

I have been physically and mentally sidetracked from working on my current series for quite some time, doing some traveling and other things and not able to think much about, or work much on the current Snuffer series or the final post on Content and Context. I am hoping to get back in the saddle soon and get focused writing again… however I am considering publishing a book as an alternative to, or in conjunction with posting on a blog.

One of the things that has occurred to me is that when information is given out for free it is not appreciated and consumed by as many people. I recall hearing BRM state that as long as missionaries gave out Book of Mormons for free, people did not value them or attach a perceived value to them. The books were quickly discarded or they just accumulated dust sitting on the bookshelf.

Once missionaries began charging  for them, although fewer books were dispersed, significantly more people began to read the book, value it, and take it seriously. That is the downside of blogging in my opinion. It is interesting how many people will peruse and purchase a book but would never read a blog with the same content.

Sad, but true..

There are many successful authors that, IMHO, charge exorbitant amounts for their books, with content that would not be nearly as widely read if they simply provided all of their research for free on the internet. Although I used to look disparagingly  upon the practice of publishing doctrinal books and charging for information, I am now beginning to rethink things.

Perhaps the psychology behind the strategy successfully gets people to evaluate a message that they would otherwise not value or invest the time to consider if it was provided freely.

Current Events and Thoughts

There are  numerous current events that are worthy of note as well as a few other things that have been on my mind. Some of the news events and issues that I am going to comment on have been brought to my attention by commenters on this blog.

Faith vs Works

Recently a commenter challenged my readers to read Romans. Mrs Watcher and I love reading all of the standard works and feel that each of them have a unique spirit about them. We love reading the New Testament. There is such a powerful spirit contained in the New Testament. While reading Romans I began to think about some of my other favorite New Testament scriptures and it occurred to me just how important passages in the New Testament have been in helping me to interpret passages from the Book of Mormon.

I have written two of my favorite scriptural passages below. One from the New Testament and the other from the Book of Mormon. There was a time when I did not see these two passages as saying the same thing because I allowed my LDS indoctrination to color how I interpreted the passage and I considered the Book of Mormon to be more enlightened than the Bible. Since that time, I have had events take place in my life that have caused me to get back to the basics of Biblical Christianity and I have begun to cherish and value the Bible as the doctrinal baseline from which to interpret the Book of Mormon.

I now interpret the two passages below to be in complete harmony with each other.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Eph 2:8-9

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25:23

I think many Latter day Saints have been guilty of assuming that 2 Nephi 25:23 is saying that if we do everything that we possibly can, to keep the commandments and do good works, then we will qualify for that additional  grace of God to pick up the slack and to cover the remaining portion of what we are unable to do for ourselves. I have attempted to depict this erroneous interpretation in the first graph below.

I have been guilty of viewing the Book of Mormon passage that way. I am now of the opinion that such an interpretation is arrogant and erroneous.

I believe Nephi was actually making the same point that Paul  was making. No matter what we can do or how much we do,  it is still 100% by the grace of God that we are saved.

 grace graft

 Converted Jews are to Gather to America!

Thanks to some interrogation from Ryan I was forced to dig up a quote that I had neglected to put in some past comments as well as the upcoming post on the establishment of the latter day Kingdom of the Jews. I am grateful for the nudge because I have now included it in the upcoming post and it is an incredibly important quote. Here it is for those who did not read the comment and don’t want to wait for the post to read it.

“We had a letter from Elder Hyde, a few days ago, who is in New Jersey, and is expecting to leave for England as soon as Elder Page reaches him. He requested to know if converted Jews are to go to Jerusalem or to come to Zion. I therefore wish you to inform him that converted Jews must come here.” (HC 4:231 approx October 1840)

One of the things Orson Hyde is remembered for is his dedicatory prayer for the city of Jerusalem in the Old World. Many saints falsely assume that the Hyde had been authorized and commissioned by  the Lord through Joseph Smith to dedicate the land of Jerusalem in the Old World for the gathering of the Jews but such is not the case.

Here is a little history regarding Hyde leading up to the above quote that will hopefully provide some context-

a) When Oliver Cowdery and other Latter Day Saint missionaries preached in Kirtland in late 1830, Hyde spoke publicly against the “Mormon Bible.” However, when his former minister, Sidney Rigdon joined the church, Hyde investigated the claims of the missionaries for three months, and was baptized by Rigdon on October 30, 1831. Although I don’t begrudge Orson’s initial rejection of the Book of Mormon, I think it is part of a pattern of confusion that he struggled with.

b) After joining the church and doing missionary work, Orson Hyde was in a personal state of apostasy at the time he overheard Joseph Smith speaking to Heber C Kimball about opening foreign missions in 1837. This was during the “Kirtland Apostasy” that had to do with the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society. Upon hearing about the opportunity to help establish foreign missions, he excitedly offered contrition for his murmurings  and obtained forgiveness and permission to accompany Kimball in the effort.

While Heber was being set apart for his mission, Orson Hyde walked into the room. Upon hearing what was happening, Orson was moved to repent, for he had been among the leaders of the Church caught up in the spirit of speculation and criticism of Joseph Smith. He acknowledged his faults, asked forgiveness, and offered to accompany Heber on his mission.”

(The apostolic mission with Heber C. Kimball to Great Britain in 1837 to 1838 was credited in bringing thousands of converts to the faith.)

c) After he returned from that mission Apostle Hyde quickly went into apostasy again. Section 112 testifies that the entire quorum of the twelve were struggling and were”unconverted” to the gospel in July of 1837  .It is fascinating to realize that God was using an apostate quorum of apostles do “something new for the salvation of the church” in taking the preparatory gospel to the nations. It was during that period in which the twelve were called to establish foreign missions.

Apostle Thomas B. Marsh, the president of the quorum of  the Twelve was so concerned about the apostate condition of his brethren of the Twelve and their commission to take the gospel to the nations that he petitioned Joseph  Smith to get a revelation regarding the state of his brethren. This resulted in section 112 which admonishes Marsh to:

“..pray for thy brethren of the Twelve.  Admonish them sharply for my name’s sake, and let them be admonished for all their sins, and be ye faithful before me unto my name.

13  And after their temptations, and much tribulation, behold, I, the Lord, will feel after them, and if they harden not their hearts, and stiffen not their necks against me, they shall be converted, and I will heal them.”

Ironically, President Marsh himself would jointly apostatize with Orson Hyde within a little over a year after Section 112 was given. Marsh and Hyde would both accuse Joseph Smith of organizing a secret combination to support the heads of the church against the unbelieving gentiles. Other accounts claim that the “Danites” plundered and harassed anyone that was not a member of the church..

Upon returning from Britain, during a period of persecution and internal dissension, Hyde wrote that he felt God was no longer with the church” and apostatised again.  “He left the church on October 19, 1838 with Thomas B. Marsh, the presiding member of the Twelve. Marsh explained the reasons for their dissent in an affidavit which he and Hyde signed on October 24, 1838 in Richmond, Missouri. These included their contention that the Mormons had organized into a company known as the Danites, “who have taken an oath to support the heads of the church in all things that they say or do, whether right or wrong” and that Mormon and Danite vigilantes had burned and looted non-Mormon settlements in Daviess County.[5] Marsh and Hyde also claimed that Joseph Smith planned to “to take the State, & he professes to his people to intend taking the U.S. & ultimately the whole world.”

The testimony of Marsh and Hyde added to the panic in northwestern Missouri and contributed to subsequent events in the 1838 Mormon War.” Hyde was disfellowshipped because of his disaffection.

d) Hyde would once again “repent” and once again be called to preach the gospel in foreign lands. This time his ministry would include going to Jerusalem. He was called jointly  with John Page by a conference of leaders of the Church. The calling came in a meeting held on April 6th 1840. (Although Page never made the journey, Hyde would laber from April 1841 to December of 1842.)

Here is the beginning of the letter drafted by the conference:

“To all people unto whom these pres ents shall come.—Greeting.

Be it known that we the con stituted authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as sembled in conference, atNauvoo, Han cock county and State of Illinois, on  this, sixth day of April, in the year of  our Lord, one thousand, eight hundred  and forty, considering an important  event at hand, an event involving the  interest and fate of the Gentile nations  throughout the world. From the signs  of the times, and from declarations con tained in the oracles of God, we are  forced to come to this conclusion.

The Jewish nation have been scat tered abroad among the Gentiles for a  long period; and in our estimation, the  time of the commencement of their return to the Holy land, has already arrived.”

In my opinion, the “holy land” that the scattered Jews were to gather to was the Land of America, not the Jerusalem of the Old World. Both the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon had identified America as the land that God had given to ALL of the children of Abraham in the latter days. This is why Joseph made the following clarification to Orson Hyde

“We had a letter from Elder Hyde, a few days ago, who is in New Jersey, and is expecting to leave for England as soon as Elder Page reaches him. He requested to know if converted Jews are to go to Jerusalem or to come to Zion. I therefore wish you to inform him that converted Jews must come here.” (HC 4:231 approx October 1840)

The following spreadsheet shows many of the Book of Mormon prophecies regarding the latter day restoration of the Jews:


It points out that:

a) The Jews do not gather in the last days until AFTER they begin to Believe in Christ

b) They gather to America, not the Old World

c) They are grafted into the Latter day Saint Church

Bottom-line: The latter day saints represent the re-establishment of the Kingdom of the Jews! More on this in the next post.

Strangely enough, Orson Hyde dedicated the land of Jerusalem in the Old world about a year later for the gathering of the scattered remnants of Judah, “according to the predictions of the holy Prophets“:

“..arrived in this place to dedicate and consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah’s scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets — for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name..”

I am of the belief that Orson Hyde was not commissioned to dedicate the Old World Jerusalem for the gathering of Judah. I believe he was very confused and errant in doing so. His actions have greatly affected the trajectory of the mindset of the leaders of the church in future generations.

Many scholars have pointed out that the gathering of the  ashkenazi jews that has been financed by the Rothchilds in the Old World is a scam and that they are not even the authentic Jews mentioned in the Bible. Fortunately, the Book of Mormon reveals the mystery of who the real Jews are.

As Sir Lancelot would say,

C’est Moi!

It is possible that Hyde never got the instructions contained in the letter sent by Joseph Smith.

Orson Hyde had NOT been commissioned to dedicate the Old World Jerusalem for the gathering of the remnants of Judah. Here is what his commission consisted of:

He was to be an ” agent and representative [of the church] in foreign lands, to visit the cities of London,  Amsterdam, Constantinople and Jeru salem; and also other places that he  may deem expedient, and converse with  the priests, rulers and Elders of the  Jews, and obtain from them all the in formation possible, and communicate  the same to some principal paper for  publication, that it may have a general circulation throughout the United States.”

Clearly, Hyde’s commission was to converse with priests, rulers and Elders of the Jews and obtain information for a publication. The commission did not include dedicating the land of Jerusalem for the gathering of the Jews. The dedicatory prayer was Orson Hydes own idea based on a vision that he claimed to have.

His decision to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews contradicted Joseph’s declaration that the  “converted Jews must come here.

A few years after Hyde returned from his second foreign mission to Jerusalem, he was found preaching false doctrine about the  last days and was corrected in private and then publicly by the prophet Joseph Smith. (See section 130)

Orson Hyde was a well meaning and enthusiastic person with good intentions. He labored much for the restored gospel and had much success in preaching the gospel, HOWEVER, it appears that he was very confused about a number of doctrinal issues as were many of the saints.

It should not surprise anyone that he took it upon himself to dedicate the Old World Jerusalem for the return of the scattered remnants of Judah, even though Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and modern revelation all testify that the Jews are to gather to America in the last days after they  begin in Christ.

I would further suggest that we latter day Jews (saints) have never progressed past the stage of “beginning to believe in Christ”. We are still stumbling over the “lesser things” we have been given.

More on the re-establishment of the latter day Kingdom of the Jews when I continue on the current series.

True Prophets Can Utter False Prophecies

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 is a greatly misinterpreted section of the Old Testament.

There are countless websites dedicated to exposing the false prophecies of Joseph Smith. I have pointed out in previous posts that many of the accusations about false  prophecies are not false prophecies at all, they are simply misinterpretations of the scriptures that we LDS are guilty of making. Hence we bring about much of the criticism because of our inability to interpret our own scriptures correctly.

One of my favorite examples is Section 84:4. Mormon publications claim that verse is referring to the Jackson County Temple that was to be built in that generation. Naturally, it would have been a false revelation had the interpretation been accurate. Of course, the verse is actually referring to the Kirtland Temple and therefore the prophecy did come to pass, not only within that generation, but within four years of the prophecy.

He shall speak presumptuously

 Many of the anti-Mormon websites quote Deut 18:21-22 to provide Biblical proof that a true prophet is prophetically infallible and can never utter a false prophecy.  People interpret it to be stating that true prophets NEVER utter false prophecies. It reads thusly:

21  And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22  When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Some of these sites further suggest that if someone utters a false prophecy, he is a false prophet that should be put to death according to Old Testament law. They derive this supposed Old Testament law from verse 20:

20  But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

The assumption that Old Testament prophets were to be stoned to death for giving false prophecies is questionable in my opinion. Can anyone show me a scripture providing a second witness to that doctrine?

Can anyone provide an example of an Old Testament prophet being stoned for giving a false prophecy?

90% of the prophecies uttered by Old Testament prophets were about things that would happen decades and centuries later. Often after they were dead. Are to believe that people are waiting around for decades and even centuries to stone someone for telling a false prophecy according to Old Testament law?

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 is also used to justify putting a prophet to death for prophesying falsely however, a careful reading of those passages reveals that the sin that brings death is not a false prophecy but rather a false teaching that causes people to worship a false god. (those passages arguably also represent a prophecy pertaining to a latter day prophet, rather than a law)

My contention is that Deuteronomy 18:15-22 is not referring to a law. Rather, it is a prophecy about future events.

The “Two” who are Like  Moses

Another false doctrine that Mormon scholars derive from Deuteronomy 18:15-20 is that there is only one prophet in the last days that will be “like Moses“.  This causes disputations ab out who the real “one like Moses” really is. Because of this, many people reject the prophecies that declare Joseph Smith to be the one “like Moses” such as D&C 103:15-22 (2nd Nephi 3, D&C 107:92,  JST Genesis 50, etc.) in favor of the passages that declare Christ to be the one like Moses such as 1st Nephi 22:19-21, etc.

The truth is that Deuteronomy 18:15-22 actually speaks of two separate and distinct prophets that are typological to Moses. It refers first to Christ’s role as being like Moses. Then it speaks of Joseph Smith’s role of being like Moses.

Again, one of the keys to understanding Deuteronomy 18:15-22 is in realizing that it is a prophecy about the two separate and distinct prophets that would each be typological to Moses. One would not speak presumptuously, the other would.

The first prophet “Like Moses” referred to in verse 15 is obviously Christ. We know this from the following passages of scripture in the Book of Mormon:

19  For behold, the righteous shall not perish; for the time surely must come that all they who fight against Zion shall be cut off.

20  And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.  And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

21  And now I, Nephi, declare unto you, that this prophet of whom Moses spake was the Holy One of Israel; wherefore, he shall execute judgment in righteousness. (1st Nephi 22)

What many LDS prophecy scholars are not aware of is that verses 18-22 speak of ANOTHER last days prophet like Moses that is NOT Christ. In my opinion, it speaks also of Joseph Smith.

Unlike the first prophet mentioned in verse 15, this second prophet manifests some of the shortcomings of Moses’ ministry, including the fact that he makes a grievous mistake, just as Moses did when he spoke “presumptuously” and failed to sanctify the Lord when he struck the rock twice in Numbers 20:9-12!

The council given regarding these two prophets that are mentioned in Deut 18:15-22 is quite different. The passages command us to categorically “hearken” to the voice of Jesus Christ, the first prophet “like Moses” referred to in verse 15, because he never errors and he speaks as God (just as Moses was commanded to speak in behalf of God)

Verse 18 introduces a different last days prophet that is like Moses. This second prophet first speaks “all that [the Lord] shall command him” but then he eventually speaks “presumptuously“. Instead of being commanded to categorically hearken to his commands, the passages tell us to not be afraid of him when his prophecies don’t come true.

Many Mormons are afraid to entertain the possibility that Joseph Smith ever did anything wrong. They think it would be blasphemy to suggest such a thing.

Those that understand the atonemment statute can appreciate who this is referring to.

15  ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

[Moses is prophesying of Christ here]

16  According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.


18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. [Moses is prophesying of Joseph Smith here]

19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20  But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. [Moses is not giving a law to stone false prophets, he is foretelling about a last days prophet who will utter a false prophecy and then be put to death by angry men (see 2nd Samuel )]

21  And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22  When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Monson Ordered to Appear on Fraud Charges

Most of you are probably aware that President Monson has been ordered to appear before a magistrate in England on fraud charges filed by a disaffected ex-Mormon who is disputing the fundamental teachings of religion. Most legal experts in England and America think it is unlikely that he will be extradited. (See also here and here. )

Although it is doubtful that he will appear in person and doubtful that anything significant of a legal nature will be resolved, I find it to be a significant sign of the times. One of the main players in getting the unusual and unlikely summonses to fruition is Tom Phillips, the managing director of MormonThink, which is an online publication which claims to provide a neutral perspective about Mormon History and Doctrine.

Tom is the ex-Bishop and Stake President that became disgusted when the brethren summoned him and his wife to the temple to receive the second anointing and nothing happened. Tom and his wife just sat in the temple waiting for Christ to show up, but it was a “no-show” event.  This caused Tom to begin re-evaluating the claims of the church and searching deeper into the history and doctrine of the church. He is now a seething anti-Mormon that has lost his family over his anger and apostasy from the church ( transcripts and or audios and videos of his ordeal can be see hear and hear and hear.

Denver Has Declared His Dispensation!

One of Snuffers loyal followers has pointed out that Denver has declared his dispensation. The following snippet is from Denver’s Orem talk:

“Now you tell me, you declare to me, what are your dispensations? (I have one, and Joseph had one, but do you have one also?)”

Interestingly, he seems to be using the Catholic definition for the term “dispensation” rather than the one revealed in LDS scripture. LOL

Perhaps Denver has received a special dispensation from Pope Francis. LOL

False Christs Commission False Prophets

About two and a half months ago I did a post regarding Matthew 24:23-24 and interpreted the passage to be inferring that the false prophets being spoken of by Christ, become so, by being visited and called to their ministry by a False Christ. I believe this represents the defining difference between people like Denver Snuffer and Christopher Nemelka.

Christopher Nemelka, in my opinion has not been deceived. Rather, he is an intentional deceiver. He has not been visited by any heavenly messengers, he is simply a very calculating charlatan who is intentionally deceiving people. He crafted his “sealed portion” with the intent to fool people. A good friend of mine recently found out that one of his associates has bought into the Nemelka scam.

Snuffer on the other hand, seems to sincerely believe that he has been visited and commissioned by Jesus Christ to teach the gospel and bring about Zion. In a future post I will demonstrate that the everlasting covenant between God and his people was rejected by the Jews in the meridian of time and broken by the Gentiles during the ministry of Joseph Smith. This is why it is impossible for people to be getting the second comforter from the true Christ until those who have been properly commissioned return to re-establish the broken covenant.

This is just one of many reasons why it is obvious that Snuffer has been deceived into thinking that he has received the second comforter and some special kind of dispensation.

Interestingly, his storyline years ago after writing the Second Comforter was that he was just an ordinary guy and that anyone could see the Savior.

That was his simple message.

Anyone can see Christ.

Since that time his books have become more controversial and his storyline has morphed and become much more directed at his own self importance and the fact that he is a special servant of the Lord who is faithfully teaching what God has sent him to teach.

He infers that he has a special calling and is here to officiate in the establishment of Zion. There will even be signs in the heavens that will testify to that fact that he is faithfully teaching what God has ordained him to teach:

 “You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.”

False Prophets Spawn other False Prophets

In the post I did a few months back I speculated that the false prophet  that is visited by a false Christ will spawn a host of followers that will begin bearing testimony that the false prophet is a true prophet. I also speculated that each of these testimony bearing followers will essentially become secondary false prophets. Here is an excerpt of what I speculated:

Another thing that has dawned on me recently is that when a charismatic person is visited by a false Christ and then begins giving their message, others become seduced by the same false spirit. Some may be visited by the same false Christ. Others are simply influenced by the seducing spirit.

Once seduced by the same spirit, they begin bearing a false witness to others that the false prophet is a true prophet.

When they do this, they are not intentionally telling a lie. They honestly feel like they have received promptings from the Holy Ghost and therefore, they feel like they are inspired to testify that the message of the false prophet is true, even though they don’t even understand what the message is ultimately going to be.

The apparently innocent, yet incorrect testimony that they bear, actually makes them a false prophet as well. That is very possibly why the passage refers to false prophets (plural) yet possibly having to do with the same spiritual movement.

In other words, Christ’s prophecy may not have been referring to lots of individual false prophets with differing messages. It could have been referring to a specific movement with lots of people bearing a false testimony about a false message from God.

The first false prophet begins accumulating passionate followers that begin bearing their testimonies that the message from the primary false prophet is true.

Everyone that begins bearing their testimony that a false prophet is a true prophet, becomes a false prophet also, along with the primary false prophet.”

Since Denver Snuffer was excommunicated there have been numerous followers of his that have begun making bold declarations about Denver being a true prophet that has seen Christ. Some have also testified that the General Authorities of the Church have NOT seen Christ. This of course has created a cancer that has begun to eat at the core foundational teaching of the Church, which is that the Current leaders of the Church are receiving direct revelation and direct visitations from God.

It has put the church in a very difficult situation in that they do not want to conduct another witch hunt like they did 30 years ago with the September Six and yet, if they don’t send a warning shot over the bow of the ship, the cancerous disease will escalate very quickly as more Snufferites begin bearing witness that God speaks to Denver and not to President  Monson or the Twelve.

The First High Profile Snuffer Follower is Excommunicated

This brings us to the next current event of interest. It appears as if the first high profile Snufferite has been excommunicated for publicly declaring that Snuffer speaks to God and the leaders of the Church don’t. He publicly declared (on the Internet) that Snuffer is the first prophet since Joseph Smith to speak to God since the death of Joseph Smith.

A fellow by the name of Brent Larsen apparently made the following declaration on the LDS Freedom Forum:

“I know there is a prophet on the earth again today, that it is Denver, and that he is the first I know of as of the death of Joseph. I know Denver is speaking the words given to him by my King.”

Brent has now become a martyr like Denver Snuffer and his excommunication will probably energize the Snuffer movement.

I was curious to see who Brent was and if he had posted any videos. I found the following video that is very possibly a video of him giving a lecture. I am not sure if it is him. It may be a different person with the same name. If any of the Snufferites that follow this blog know for sure, please let me know.

I believe my speculation is coming to fruition about the fact that we are now experiencing a growth in Snufferites that are testifying that Snuffer is a prophet. One of the breeding grounds for this Snufferite movement, besides the LDS Freedom Forum is Latter day Commentary which is run by an incredibly likeable guy named Tim Malone.

Tim is another high profile disciple of Snuffers who currently serves as a financial clerk in a Stake Presidency. One almost gets the impression that he is just baiting his priesthood leaders to pull him into a church court and yet he repeatedly acknowledges that his first allegiance is to the church, not Snuffer. He claims he will discontinue his blog if asked to by his Stake President.

Another person who credits Snuffers book, the Second Comforter in helping him in his path to seeing the Father and the Son, is Daniel Rogers who has published a website telling of his communion with the heavens.

Perhaps one of the most prolific Snuffer shills is the person that uses the screen name of Log. Log has invested an inordinate amount of time and energy  trying to persuade people to come unto Denver. Log is the one that motivated me to do my Snuffer series.

Tim Malone,  Brent Larsen and Log represent the tip of the iceberg when it comes to secondary prophets testifying of the divine commission given to Snuffer and/or drawing people into discourse about Snuffer. There are many more people bearing witness of Snuffer and they are cross pollinating on various blogs and forums. The movement is growing.

It is heartbreaking to watch the warning about false prophets given by Christ in Matt 24, unfold before our very eyes. I believe this is a testimony that we are living in the last generation and things are about to happen in the earth.

The Folks Over at the Interpreter are Chicken-Shits

I have somewhat of a love hate with the Mormon scholars over at the interpreter. On the one hand, I feel their intentions are good with regard to their desire to defend the faith. Every once in a while, one of their scholars busts out an article with some valid and profound snippets of truth worth reading. On the other hand, I feel they focus way too much on defending the modern “church” and the “brethren” instead of defending the restored gospel as it was originally revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith.

I have been critical of them for many other reasons I won’t belabor this post.

I must admit that I am currently pretty pissed at them because I presented to them, on a golden platter, the opportunity to use their forum to bring to light a hidden truth that slam dunks Denver Snuffer for disrespecting the historicity of Section 110, but they hesitated to do so and a valuable opportunity was lost unto them.

I believe the documentation I have provided from the Inspired Version of the Bible about  John the Baptist being Elijah the Tishbite proves beyond dispute, the veracity of the historicity behind the event spoken of in Section 110.  110 is a true revelation and the prophecy contained in 110:14-16 had indeed come to pass as declared.

Long before I posted the section of my current Snuffer series documenting how the Inspired Version of the Bible reveals that John the Baptist was the transmigration of Elijah the Tishbite, I contacted the folks over at the Interpreter and invited them to critique my findings.

My desire was to involve scholars within mainstream Mormonism in the process of evaluating and giving credibility and greater exposure to this revolutionary information.

I stressed to them that I felt that the Inspired Version of the Bible offers a compelling way to prove, that Section 110 and the prophetic content thereof was true and had indeed come to pass.

I noted that if my findings were true, it would prove that some of the current teachings in the church about section 110 were not accurate, but more importantly, it would show that section 110 was valid and the prophecies contained therein had in fact been fulfilled. It would also demonstrate why the Lord had commanded Joseph and Oliver to keep the Vision and Prophecy in section 110 a secret.

This is a snippet from my initial email to the folks over at the MormonInterpreter:

I am getting ready to post the last part of my rebuttal to Denver Snuffer. It has to do with what I consider to be extremely compelling evidence to prove the historicity of section 110. Nevertheless, it is somewhat controversial with regard to how it characterizes the trajectory of the church from 1836 onward.

If you or any of the apologists that write for your organization would have any interest in reviewing it prior to it being posted, I would be happy to provide it for that purpose. I would gladly review any critique that is offered, I would even be willing to post the critique along with the paper if desired.

Even if your scholars would prefer to not provide any public comment, but would like to review and critique it privately, that would be fine with me. I would certainly take any criticism very seriously and reevaluate my suppositions if any critique was offered.

Thank you for your consideration

Watcher ”

Their initial response to my email indicated an interest on their  part to review what I had found:

Their response was:

“It sounds like it might be one that the board might want to see. You can submit it and I’ll pass it on with your comments here”

I therefore sent them the initial draft of what I had written with this message:

Here is the portion of my last rebuttal point that we have previously discussed. As I said in our last communication, I welcome any credible feedback from your board members or participating Apologetic Scholars regardless of whether it is positive or negative.

My core supposition is that the Inspired Version of the Bible reveals the true identity of John the Baptist and by so doing, proves beyond question that section 110 is true and that Elijah the Tishbite did in fact fulfill the prophecy of Malachi per the declaration in section 110.

 If my thesis can be proven to be in error, I will not post my paper. However I am so confident that the supposition is accurate, that I am willing to allow your entire organization to scrutinize it and respond to it before I post it If you decide to afford yourselves of this opportunity. I would invite your staff and associated scholars to make every effort to debunk it. I don’t think it can be done.

It is my belief that the writings of Denver Snuffer as contained in his book, Passing the Heavenly Gift, has thrown many Latter day Saints into a crisis of faith regarding the veracity of Section 110. I think the current interpretations that are commonly taught in the church are not altogether accurate and have therefore put the church in a vulnerable doctrinal position in defending the historicity of Section 110. I think that if something is not done in a timely manner, to challenge Snuffers attack in a credible way, the fallout from his criticisms will possibly continue to grow at an alarming rate.

I believe that section 110 plays a critical and central role in the LDS restoration movement and Mormon theology. It interconnects with so many other LDS scriptures and historical events of the restoration movement, that destroying it’s credibility potentially has far reaching consequences, and may ultimately have a domino effect with a devastating impact on many people’s faith in the LDS restoration.

I believe it needs to be responded to in a timely, powerful, authoritative, and decisive manner.

There is some dark irony in a person claiming to have been taught by Christ and angels who is essentially rejecting the account of Joseph and Oliver being taught by Christ and angels in the account contained in section 110. If 110 is clearly shown to be true, it brings into question, Snuffers claims about his own personal visitations from true messengers.

 I believe that by putting the historicity of this very important section in question, Snuffer will ultimately undermine countless people’s faith in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as his following continues to grow. While the church had no other option than to expel him, his martyr status is attracting a lot of attention and I think it may be working to his advantage to some degree in furthering his movement.”

After their board reviewed the paper they responded with the following comment:

“Watcher – Having looked at it, I think it is more than we would want to post in the comments. However, you might want to consider a different introduction and submitting it as a paper for Interpreter. It would go through the review process and you would know what the comments would be.”

I was a little bit taken back by that response.

I am not sure what they meant by posting in the comments. All I was asking them to do is to send the draft to all of their scholars and asking for them to provide any reasons why they would disagree or agree with the evidence and conclusions I had made. I was giving them the opportunity to debunk the thesis or respond with a positive conclusion.

I was frankly a little surprised that they would invite me to submit the article to be published on their forum. This invitation prompted the following response from me:

“Since when did the Interpeter begin accepting papers from anonymous, un-credentialed, non-members of the church? LOL”

They replied thusly:

“Certainly not anonymous. However, uncredentialed and non-member isn’t an issue. Quality of thought is important, not credentials. However, it would require loss of anonymity.”

 Quality of thought is what is important but loss of anonymity is required?

How important is quality of thought if loss of anonymity is required before the paper will be reviewed?

Why would an organization such as the Interpreter refuse to publish a potentially game changing doctrinal thesis for scrutiny simply because the author desired to be anonymous?

Here I was, offering a doctrinal thesis of ginormous significance and they were preoccupied with finding out who the author of the thesis is!?!?

Why the h#*! should it matter who wrote the freakin thesis?

“Quality of thought” is the important thing, right?

Truth is the bottom-line.. right?

Only an ego-centric organization would be stuck in that kind of prideful mindset of not being willing to evaluate a thoughtful thesis unless a personality could  be associated with it.

The truth is that the world of scholarship has reached a point where they are unable to judge a message without judging the messenger.

Admittedly, another reason they possibly put up a road block in allowing the paper to be published on their forum probably has more to do with the fact that they will not publish anything that embarrasses the church and challenges the existing doctrinal storyline being taught, which the thesis admittedly does.

Nevertheless, all I was asking was for the folks at the Interpreter to do, is simply shoot the thesis out to their large body of scholarly contributors and invite them to evaluate the doctrinal accuracy and veracity of the thesis. I was happy to allow them to critique and debunk my findings if they could. They could have even done their critique in private without bringing embarrassment to the church but they declined.

They ultimately declined by putting up stumbling-blocks.

For that reason, if any of you over at the interpreter are reading this post, I just want you to know that I think you passed up on an incredible opportunity to participate in bringing to light some game-changing doctrinal information.

You could have helped to expose the true level of inspiration found in PTHG and the author thereof.

You could have helped to bring to light information that can help people that are having a crisis of faith regarding Section 110, as a result of PTHG.

You may have been helpful in bring some of the Snufferites out of the deception they are involved in.

You could have been instrumental in helping the church self correct with regard to what they currently teach about Section 110.

I just want you to know that if you passed on the opportunity to bring this information to light because you are more concerned about not embarrassing the Church about the erroneous doctrine they teach, than you are about searching out and publishing the truth, you are a bunch of chicken-shits.  😉

81 Responses to Miscellaneous Musings 2/11/2014

  1. sfort says:


    Regarding Romans and establishing grace as the major component is correct. The development of faith is the moving power we all must understand and work toward. Joseph’s Lectures on Faith in number 6 stated the relationship of works and faith. He was helping others reconcile the other scriptures, especially in James regarding works. He referred to the Law of Moses and the works of Abraham and also the faith of Abraham. I would suggest all readers re-read the Lecture on this concept. Secondly concerning Denver Snuffer, he never asked a single soul in his books to follow him as a prophet or a man. He stated that if the reading persuaded us for good and enlargened our spirit then it was good; if it didn’t then we should discard. The idea that those abroad are calling him a prophet shows their weakness, because they are hold-overs in needing the arm of flesh to lead them. Whether or not Denver has seen Christ has no bearing on whether we should follow “him”.. We are to follow the Savior, period. Worrying about everything a man says is further evidence of weak faith. The Second Comforter helps my Spirit enlargen and speaks to it. The fact he says that he has “seen Christ” does not make my spirit do anything. It is the content of the Second Comforter and the individual path we must take to get us closer to the Savior that is of import. Nephi’s Isaiah, Come Let Us Adore Him are marvellous works and have drawn me closer to the Savior, not necessarily Denver. Denver by and large speaks in non-contentious ways, though when truth is revealed that does not coincide with what a person’s station is may appear contentious. The delivery is spirit filled. I appreciate your digging for truth. Keep watching and thank you

    • Great points sfort.

      To the extent that a person simply reads the books for personal spiritual growth, and they are following Christ and not accepting Denver as a dispensational prophet to be followed, I agree with you that no harm is done.

      Would you agree, however, that Denver has made statements to the effect that he is a prophet with an important message and calling beyond providing the concepts in his books, and that he is involved in presenting an opportunity that is being offered by heaven to those that listen to his message?

      • sfort says:

        I have read his travelling talks. I don’t claim to discount or embrace his talks. He was composing the idea of dispensational prophets as something needed and preparing us for. My wife, who is very close to feelings of propriety has always been right on with the nature of the words presented. She is a seeker of truth and reads people very well. She is not a follower of anyone, but disseminates truth consistently. She is satisfied in Denver’s delivery and spirit behind it. I agree with that assessment. She will not move though in his direction banking on his words that intimate following him; same as I. It is a good thing that an awakening is going on. Denver really portrays Isaiah and Nephi as speaking directly to current saints. This has helped me tread more independently and carefully. You also are part of this restoration of sorts. Rock and others have brought forth amazing remembrances forms the scriptures, for this I am grateful. I still believe in D&C 93 in seeing the face of Christ. Whether I cannot because of some restoritive process not yet performed does not deter me. My quest can only increase my light to get as close as possible. I appreciate your searching and admonitions.

      • I still believe in D&C 93 in seeing the face of Christ. Whether I cannot because of some restoritive process not yet performed does not deter me. My quest can only increase my light to get as close as possible

        Amen to that brother! I think we all need to be continually seeking the face of God regardless of what period of time we live in and regardless of the restorative processes that are at play.

        The servants of the vineyard could return at any time and God can choose to open the heavens when he chooses.

        My documentation of what has happened in the past and what is going to happen in the future is not intended to discourage people from seeking God, at any level, as per how they feel inspired to do so. I simply think that the more understanding we have of what has happened and what is going to happen the less likely we are to be sidetracked or deceived.

  2. Adam says:

    I have learned a tremendous amount by reading your blog and in reading Denver’s blog. I am by no means a snufferite. I was born into this religion and yet I have many more questions than ever before. I never felt comfortable at Church. That is probably my problem and I rack my brain trying to fix the issue. There are many posts on here that don’t taste good to me as well as on denvers. What makes you think that he is wrong and you are right. Just asking. In the above post you say basically that the church has section 110 wrong. What makes you right and denver wrong?

    • Adam

      I am in the process of providing a detailed explanation of why I think the Denver’s criticism of Section 110 and the Church’s teaching regarding Section 110 are wrong.

      To date I have provided quite a few reasons for my beliefs including the thesis on the return of Elijah the Tishbite which I presented to a very large group of LDS scholars to critique and debunk. I am still waiting for a response from them.

      Have you read the Secret Return of Elijah the Tishbite?

      If so, did you understand it?

      Were you hoping I would summarize it in a comment section?

      If you have read it, do you feel you have understood it?

      Regarding the “bad taste” in you mouth. I suggest that you spit out anything that tastes bad, unless of course, you have not yet developed your taste buds.

      I thank you for considering my point of view. I don’t claim infallibility and you certainly should discard anything I say that does not square with the Holy Word of God.

  3. Daniel A. Rogers says:

    Just a clarification, I do not associate myself with the title Snufferite, nor do I bear witness of Denver Snuffer. I am not sure Denver and I would be friends if we ever met. I happen to mention his book “The Second Comforter” because it played a role in my experience. For the record, I do not believe the anyone should be looking to Denver Snuffer for salvation.

    I do believe what the prophet Joseph Smith shared: “For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be, also, with all things which pertain thereto: revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing, so the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation”. (7th lecture on faith)


    • Daniel

      Thank you for that clarification.

      I classified you as a loyal follower of Denver because you make reference to him on you website wherein you claim to have seen the Father and the Son. You also refer to His book as a manual you used to get you to the point of having the heavens opened.

      While I don’t doubt your sincerity or the fact that you did have some kind of otherworldly experience, my personal study in the scriptures causes me to reject your testimony, I respect your agency and the right you have to make any declarations you deem appropriate.

      I agree with the quote by Joseph Smith about faith, however, as Section one and other passages of scripture allude to, faith is a gift of God and he bestows in varying degrees. Sometimes he turns his face from his people for a time when they reject the gospel or break the Gospel covenant.

      I apologize if I have mis-characterized your association with Denver Snuffer and I appreciate your willingness to set the record strait. I will reword that section of the post.

      Thank you for visiting.


      • Daniel A. Rogers says:

        Thanks. While I am here, I wanted to say I have enjoyed your blog, especially the series of posts parsing through the events at the Morley farm. As for my testimony, I expect most people to reject it, so I take no offense. I suspect we have more in common than we have differences.

      • Daniel

        I am sure we have much in common and I admire you for taking a stand on what you believe to be true.

        I thank you for your kind remarks and a charitable response to someone who has expressed doubt about something you obviously hold sacred.

        I hope people realize that just because I disagree with someone or do not have the evidence to believe something they say, it does not mean that I esteem them my enemy. Indeed, I suspect that most of the readers of this blog do not agree with everything or even anything I may say. Nothing wrong with that. We each need to be true to what we think the spirit is teaching us.

        We do not live in a time when there is a unity of faith among the Saints who are truly searching. We all need to labor with each other as we grow in knowledge and understanding.

  4. Brent Larsen says:

    I am not a snufferite. I do not follow any man. I am sure not a disciple of anyone but Christ. I don’t know if any GA’s have met Christ or not, I have just never received any witness that any have other than Joseph. I don’t know of anyone who is testifying that they have “not”. I received my own witness that Denvers claims were true. That’s not the point and never was. It does not matter who has connected with heaven if you have not.

    • Brent

      I thank you as well for setting the record straight, from you point of view, however, when someone is passionate enough to use public forums to testify that another person has seen Christ, it seems to me that they are indeed a “loyal follower” and even a “disciple” of that person, of sorts.

      Who gave you the commission to testify that Denver is a prophet and why is it necessary for you to bear such a witness?

      One could almost liken you to a John the Baptist who is testifying in behalf of Denver… Testifying that Denver is a prophet.

      You say that you don’t know if any GA’s have met Christ, and yet, you seem to feel that you have the ability to divine that Denver has, even though you cannot divine that the brethren have. Isn’t that kind of a back door way of saying that you don’t see any evidence that any of the Brethren have?

      Look at your statement:

      I know there is a prophet on the earth again today, that it is Denver, and that he is the first I know of as of the death of Joseph. I know Denver is speaking the words given to him by my King.

      Are you the Brent Larsen that was made the above statement?

      If so, it sounds to me as if you are making an authoritative declaration that Denver is the first true prophet since the death of Joseph Smith. Is that not essentially stating that you believe that the GA’s are not prophets and have not seen God? Aren’t you essentially testifying that they are not true prophets? Particularly since the brethren have excommunicated Denver and you are saying that Denver is a true prophet?

      I am happy to retract any inaccurate statements I have made in the post, but frankly, I don’t understand what you are taking issue with.


  5. Brent Larsen says:

    “when someone is passionate enough to use public forums to testify that another person has seen Christ, it seems to me that they are indeed a “loyal follower” and even a “disciple” of that person, of sorts.”

    looks like you already have your opinion and it didnt change with my declaration that I am not a follower or a disciple. still, I guess I am really the only one who can speak for me.

    Joseph Smith was a prophet. I am not a “loyal follower” of him nor a “disciple” of him. I am not a “Smithite” either. does that help?

    I get that most will not understand what I am saying. I suspect you deal with that frequently as well with things you state, and your blog.

    I guess its part of the path and parcel.

    Thanks for posting my rebuttal of your titles for me.

    Keep up the research, I like your scholarship, if not all your conclusions.

  6. David says:

    Dear brother Watcher,

    First of all, Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! I can appreciate a man who calls ’em as he see’s ’em! Chicken Shits it is! I love it! And I love how to the point you are in those who assume and presume that “you think you are right!?” you invite, encourage and demand feedback and most of all, correction! Tis key!

    I have devoured your material and many thesis’ and really “get it” that everything that you postulate is backed up with the Holy Word of God. Greater Faith is obtained with an open heart and open mind, period! Discernment in doctrine and spirits can only be obtained with an open heart and open mind, period. Seeking the Face of God will build ones faith, period! An the patience and timing of God revealing anything has order, period! FatherInAllTrutH!
    Let no man deceive you! And do not deceive yourself are direct COm-MANd-MENTS to the very point of ones protection from apologists and the Denver Snuffers that have always been around and are continuing to come around!

    I believe that God has placed a huge stumblingblock in Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 110 and 132, for two entirely different lessons to teach us! Section 110 reveals so much truth and puts a shot right at midships for the church, boom! Section 132 is in my belief why Joseph had to die, though he was not the one who had its contents included in the D&C.

    The character of God is fascinating to me! I am in gratitude for His love for us in His ways and His strong reasoning! Very few scour the scriptures to uncover deeper doctrinal truths as evidenced by, who did discover the Atonement Statute/Scapegoat Doctrine and who did not!!!

    My prayers have been answered beyond my describing, by finding your site! I had/have been so blessed to have discovered many dots and Spiritual witnesses along my journey and discovering your blog has blown my mind by the wealth of key word search crunching that you have labored greatly, to help many of us to clarify content and context to connect the many dots!

    Thank you Watcher! I believe that you are truly committed to pure doctrinal truth and are very concerned for those who have difficulty in adhering to the Arm of God because of the persuasiveness and precepts of men! But, more importantly, ones salvation is dependent upon entreating the Holy Spirit into an “open heart” one can and must seek verification and validation from the Holy Spirit to “discern” all truth.

    I am excited in the announcement of a book to come forth authored by you!!! Praise God! I am astonished at the volume of material that you have so generously offered those of us who have detected your blog, the true character and humility that makes you a genuine “Watcher!”

    I make it a point to tell as many people about your blog each and every day that I am riding public transportation around -salt Lake City! I think a billboard and cards would be appropriate when one can get ones mind around the SIGNificance of the Atonement Statute/Scapegoat Doctrine!!! The “roots have been kept alive” and it is high time to kick it up a few notches!!! As I discuss this incredible revelation I am amazed at the “deer in the headlights look” I witness!

    I can clearly see that when Joseph unveils the portion of the sealed plates, many will not recognize Joseph and the revealed Holy Word!?!? When I was young I envisioned the events about to unfold as world wide announcements! But, unfortunately I believe that it will be low key as far as major news events!?

    That is why you, Watcher, of all people must author a book and charge for it!!! Your work is legitimized by the Holy Word of God and the pieces of the mysterious puzzle that you have uncovered by your relentless pursuit of doctrinal truth! I believe that there is a publishing company that would put a team at your disposal to get it released sooner than later!!! Because you have so much to work with! Whew!!! It coincides with this particular year, the next two years and the revealing of the servants “to those who are watching and Spiritually believing!

    Also, I am sure you have many, many people that would donate much of their time to this most necessary cause!!! Maybe you publish it in increments starting with an overview of the Atonement/ScapegoatDoctrine, outlining additional chapters that will be forth coming so that it can be had sooner, and just as your blog is now, people will be juiced to get the next chapter! Hell, I don’t know anything, but, I do know that your blog is the only one in the world that has revealed such deep doctrinal truth in decades, the Atonement Statute/Scapegoat Doctrine, and why we are where we are in relation to its SIGNificance!!!

    My admiration of your studies and work is obvious! I am not a follower of man or men, I am a relentless pursuer of truth of God and inquire of the Holy Spirit to guide me in all truth! Its how i have always rolled and I looked into the electronic world of air waves and discovered your work within minutes upon searching for additional truth on the air waves for the first time ever!!! I actually found Denver’s blog just before yours! I scoured his blog, comments and reviews and moved on.

    So timing is everything! No coincidencesin this world, none! Everything jas a season and reason! The timing in Denver’s work, his excommunication and your taking the challenge offered by Log!!! Praise God almighty!!! Does anyone else out there see the SIGNificance in the veil being lifted off of the eyes and mind, and the circumcision of heart happening this very day in relation to the profundity, seriousness an timing of new revelations coming forth now that have been carried around for thousands of years!?!? I know that Fusion and Nept and others like them know by their great knowledge!

    Signs abound when the Spirit is around!
    Signs are seen when we are keen!
    Signs, Signs, everywhere are Signs!

    A True Watcher watches and Witnesses all Signs as his Faith pre-seeds his seeking of the True Signs that are all of the Saviors coming, pre-seeded by new revelations and prophesied servants returning to reveal, new revelations of the purpose of Gods glorious plan of Salvation for all to obtain freely.

    Watcher, if I can be of any assistance to you in any way to help bring forth, and help spread further truth, of Gods Word and your work in His cause, in any way, I would be honored, to donate the enormous amount of energy I posess to the cause of Christ our King! You know how to reach me, peace.

    ps. I have also corresponded with Rod Meldrum this month to donate time on the excavation of the Temple in Zarahemla! Exciting times indeed! Peace.

  7. Adam says:


    Thank you for your response. Maybe I haven’t developed my taste buds, but it isn’t for a lack of trying. As for the the poster that refers to ” Chicken Shits ” should probably repent of his pride. Or am I taking his excitement the wrong way. Instead of name calling, an adult dialogue, would be appropriate. I will read your post on Elijah as I have read Denver’s post on his version.

    Maybe Denver is a distraction but you said ” We each need to be true to what we think the spirit is teaching us”

    • “..Or am I taking his excitement the wrong way”

      Both, the poster is quite passionate and is known for using colorful language from time to time, but also needs to repent of his pride.

  8. Adam says:


    I am now reading your paper on Elijah the Tishbite. I am very intrigued. Thank you again for all of your work. I am sure that I will have more comments in future readings. It is important for all of us to have the history of the restored gospel given to us correctly.

  9. Adam says:


    One more question. Joseph Smith is to return, in your opinion do you think that Christ will return as a man as well before he comes in his glory.

  10. Adam says:

    In the paper you said that Elijah and John the Baptist are alter egos. Are you now talking about multiple mortal probations?

  11. Adam says:


    Thank you for your patience with me. These are some tasty words indeed.

  12. Danny says:

    What is your opinion of the Weeping for Zion blog? They are saying that Christ will come as a man again.

    • Danny

      The Weeping blog is one of my favorites…. we don’t agree on everything, but that is ok. I have never found anyone crazy enough to agree with all of my beliefs.

      If we limit ourselves to just reading sites that agree with our own worldview, we limit ourselves in being exposed to other possibilities.

      My interpretation of the three watches doctrine that I have been speaking about on the Internet for about six years is that Christ comes to the world, in secret, three different times, in three different ways. The first appearing took place during the meridian of time. The second one took place when Christ appeared suddenly, in secret, behind the veil in the Kirtland Temple when the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham was secretly ushered in.

      Lastly, Christ will come again in secret to his elect when the dispensation of the fulness of times is ushered in. This is spoken of in the allegory in Jacob and other places. There are several different possible scenareos pertaining to how, when and where Christ will come in secret during the third watch.

      I do not concern myself with trying to second guess the exact details of how he returns in secret. I do think there is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that the first laborers of the last kingdom must first return and gather and consecrate the elect preparatory to Christ’s return in secret.

      Dan over at weeping has an interesting take on how things will take place and how Christ returns. His views are worth investigating.

      He has a great gift for assimilating scriptural concepts and restating them in a very eloquent and compelling way.

  13. Adam says:

    Love this quote from Brigham Young JD8:115
    “When he again visits this earth, he will come to thoroughly purge his kingdom from wickedness, and, as ruler of the nations, to dictate and administer to them as the heir to the kingdom; and the Gentiles will be as much mistaken in regard to his second advent as the Jews were in relation to the first.”
    Wow, this post said it all…..the test for us will be the same as it was for the Jews. He will come as a Man. You are doing a great work.

  14. Ryan says:


    I too believe that 2N 25:23 is saying that we are saved by grace.

    A way that I look at it, and I got this from Brad Wicox (http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1966&tid=7), is that we are all saved by grace and will be resurrected. It’s our works that will determine what kind of resurrected body we’ll be given.

    Deut 18:20 doesn’t hold water that a false prophet should be stoned.

    The Book of Jeremiah is proof enough of that. In chapter 28 Hananiah gives a false prophecy and in chapter 32 they inprison Jeremiah.

    Who decides whether or not someone is a false prophet is another part of the false interpretation.

    Who decides, man? Isaiah 55:8-9 come to mind here.

    • Thank you for the link and comments Ryan

      My comments were not meant to diminish the importance of works. I believe works demonstrate faith on the front end and they are the fruits of faith on the back end. I simply wanted to point out that the mystical redemption from the fall is actuated 100% by the grace of God not from our personal works.

      Thank you also for Isaiah 55:6

      “Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near..”

      Isaiah reminds us that the Lord is not always near. The Lord cannot always be found. God turns his face away from his unfaithful bride for a season when she has committed adultery.

      A similar warning was given in section 88

      “And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, I leave these sayings with you to ponder in your hearts, with this commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall call upon me while I am near—”

      One of the many problems I have with people claiming they are conversing with God and getting the second comforter and calling and election right now when the everlasting covenant is broken is that God has informed us that he has turned his face from us since the fulness has been rejected. He does not turn his face back towards us as a people and re-open the heavens until after the servants return and reestablish the everlasting covenant.

      Those claiming that the full blessings of the gospel and of access to Christ are available now without having the covenant re-established and without living the “law of the Gospel” as per section 42, are mocking the requirements that God has given us.

      Section 105 allows the saints to not live the laws of Zion for a little season until Zion is redeemed, because of their transgressions.

      Have the servants returned and redeemed Zion per the parable in section 103?

      I don’t think so.

      Hence, no living individual merits the privilege of communing with the heavens at this time.

      We as a people would do well to focus on repenting and waiting upon the Lord to send for the weak things of the earth to confound the wise…. and not get ahead of ourselves.

      • Furthermore- I believe that if God was randomly allowing unconsecrated people to receive the second comforter at a time when the fulness of the gospel is not on the earth and the covenant has been broken, then much of what Joseph revealed would be false and ALL of what he did was unnecessary.

  15. Ryan says:


    I also didn’t read into you diminishing the place works have in our lives. I do believe that many Latter-day Saints are deceived into thinking that their works are what will matter in the end.

    While they do, they pale in comparison to faith and grace. I’m still very weak in this area.

    However when I really, and I mean really, acknowledge before God my weakness and that if there is anything good that I have done it’s only been because if His infinite goodness and grace to have allowed me to concentrate my performance unto him.

  16. stockoneder says:


    I recently read a very good article I thought you might like. Here is the link: http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html
    It shows from the Bible that Jesus was an “anarchist”. And it follows that His followers should be also.

  17. JennyP1969 says:

    But what about the Savior saying, Lo, I am with you always? He has turned His back on us as a people, but what about individuals? He said He would come privately before He comes in His glory. Is not an individual visitation private? Who is He planning to visit privately…..Pres. Monson? Help me understand. Who is He with always? Someone, somewhere, here and there, isn’t He?

    • Jenny

      What a great question to ponder!

      “But what about the Savior saying, Lo, I am with you always?”

      One of the things I have noticed as I study the scriptures is that any time I see an “apparent discrepancy” in the word of God, I am about to learn something profound if I search it out! Usually there is no discrepancy at all.

      On the one hand we have passages of scriptures like the ones I have previously pointed out and also this one

      And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man” (Gen 6:3 2 Nephi 26:11, D&C 1:33, Moses 8:17, Ether 2:15, etc.)

      Conversely, we have the one you quoted:

      Lo, I am with you always” Matt 28:20

      At face value, it appears as if there may be a discrepancy.

      Here are a few things to ponder.

      First, there is a difference between the Lord closing the heavens for a season as far as human beings being able to converse directly with him, as opposed to having a portion of his spirit. We know that every living human being has a portion of the light of Christ in them. One cannot live and breath without the light of Christ, it is necessary to sustain life.

      Having the spirit of Christ is a form of “I am with you always” and yet the greater gospel blessing of conversing with the Lord personally can still be withheld.

      Another thing to be considered is context.

      The passage of scripture you quoted was directed specifically to his Apostles in the meridian of time as they were receiving their commission to take the gospel into all the world. Here is an expanded quote providing more context-

      16 ¶ Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
      17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
      18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
      19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
      20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

      I think it is safe to say that the promise was not given to all people at that time, it was being given to the apostles.

      I believe that specific promise to the eleven apostles back in the meridian of time does not mean that God cannot close the heavens to personal visitations for a season in the last days during a time of apostasy.

      One of the serious mistakes that Snuffer makes in his book is that he claims that the gospel is strictly personal and therefore we don’t need to worry about all of the ominous declarations that are directed at the “Jews” or the “Gentiles”, or the “church” or the “Saints” etc. He thinks anyone can personally bypass the consequences of the church being rejected with it’s dead.

      That is a great error. He is dead wrong.

      That is why I have encouraged people to read Joseph’s declarations in the newspaper article back in 1833. He addresses this topic and he makes it clear that the Jews as a nation rejected the gospel. He also warns that the gentiles were in the process of breaking the gospel covenant AT THAT TIME. He quoted the following passage:

      The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant

      I will be addressing this in the current series.

      This is the problem with all of these people claiming that they are enjoying having the heavens opened up to them and seeing the Father and the Son like Moses, Joseph and Sidney did. It shows an incredible lack of understanding.

      In order to literally converse with the Father and the Son, and be transfigured before the Lord and have ones calling and election made sure like Moses did and like Joseph and Sidney did, the fulness of the Priesthood must be on the earth.

      It is not.

      One must have the Melchizedek Priesthood.

      No mortal has it on the earth right now.

      One must be in conformity to the law of the Gospel and be consecrated per section 42.

      Nobody has properly entered into the law of consecration in our generation.

      One must have “sacrificed all things” per lectures on faith and the scriptures. etc., etc., etc.,

      Once the Lords servants return to the vineyard and re-establish the everlasting covenant, they will gather and prepare and consecrate the saints, preparing them for the third secret visit of the Savior.

      See Section 88:80-84

      The first laborers of the last kingdom must return and bind up the law, seal up the testimony and prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come. Once that is done, those of the Gentiles and the Jews that repent and enter into covenant will receive the visitation and their election.

      people who think that they can ponder the scriptures and fast for a few days, etc. and can have the heavens opened and commune with the Father and the Son are delusional. They are suffering from the “strong delusion” spoken of by Paul.

      Having said that… there may be a difference between a “personal visitation” requiring transfiguration vs a “dream” or a “vision”.

      Nevertheless, God usually has something of significance to impart even when a vision or dream is taking place.. thee is a purpose for such a manifestation…

  18. JennyP1969 says:

    Oh hey, Watcher……

    I recently purchased Max Skousen’s series on the temple in spiral bound form. So I really hope you publish your writings in some form! I completely agree that most people value things they pay for more than they when it’s free. I think published works get to more readers, too. Just one question, may I get autographed copies?

  19. yogalife24 says:

    Could you please help me understand what your meaning is here?

    “Denver Has Declared His Dispensation!

    One of Snuffers loyal followers has pointed out that Denver has declared his dispensation. The following snippet is from Denver’s Orem talk:

    “Now you tell me, you declare to me, what are your dispensations? (I have one, and Joseph had one, but do you have one also?)”

    Interestingly, he seems to be using the Catholic definition for the term “dispensation” rather than the one revealed in LDS scripture. LOL

    Perhaps Denver has received a special dispensation from Pope Francis. LOL”

    I am aware that the word “dispensation” is meant to read as “stewardship” from the Greek word oikonomia or “to be a steward”. It is not meant as a time period as I previously understood it to be under “sheeple” thinking. If Denver Snuffer is declaring a dispensation under this definition is that the Catholic definition?

    Where would I find the one revealed in LDS scripture? Is it so vastly different? I admit, I do not know…

    Does that also mean he (Snuffer) has received keys to this stewardship? So that he may have knowledge of what he is supposed to accomplish and authority to do so? Wouldn’t he need too?

    Do you feel he is choosing his definitions carefully when you say this (above quote)? Do you think he is truly that devious? Or is he just a unsolvable conundrum?

    I believe I have an idea of what you think of Snuffer and that you doubt his validity. I do fear for those who get wrapped up in the PR of everything. Again we are just replacing Tommy for Denny. I have vowed to God not to do this. But, I find him intriguing and different. Like yourself. (no offense) I like how he challenges me. He makes me wince and raise my eyebrows at the same time. Hmmm, refreshing? Maybe.

    I have read most of what you have written. I find your thoughts challenging, but in a thought-provoking way. “Elijah the Tishbite” – whew…You help me turn things inside out and upside down to look at them thoroughly. Again I admit it is new to me, as a reformed “sheeple”. I have not always been acquainted with asking questions, but now it is all I want to do. I appreciate your work even when it pushes me to frustration, confusion, head-shaking whatever’s, or shrugging shoulders. Truly a delicious challenge!

    I’d appreciate your thoughts on the above questions here or in an email.


    • Yogalife-

      First let me show you a few examples of how the term dispensation IS commonly used by worldly institutions but NOT used in LDS doctrine:

      My priest was given a special dispensation by the Pope to retain his faculties no matter where he goes or where he syas mass.

      The bishop is regarded in conservative Catholic circles as a pioneer of liturgical renewal in the traditional sense. In 2002 Campos diocese, then under the control of Bishop Licinio Rangel, was given a special dispensation to freely celebrate Mass in the Extraordinary form.

      Because of his father’s long years of service to the crown, he was given a special dispensation from the penalties of recusancy and permitted to bear arms..

      As you can see by the above examples, it usually has to do with the pope or the crown giving an “individual” a “special right or privilege” that others don’t get.

      Now lets review what the term means in LDS doctrine.

      A very general and basic definition of the term “dispensation” in LDS doctrine has to do with “a period of time in which the dispensing of the gospel and priesthood takes place”. BRC states that “Gospel dispensations are those periods of time during which the Lord reveals or dispenses the doctrines of the gospel to men so that reliance need not be placed on past ages” (MD page 200).

      A gospel dispensation is always open to all of those that are willing to repent and respond to the call of the gospel. Additionally, the “keys” to a dispensation are given to a man or set of men that have the authority to initiate and preside over a gospel dispensation.

      The following passages in the D&C use the term dispensation-

      And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
      13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; (27:12-13)

      After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed… 16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

      For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
      31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;
      32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

      All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times— (121:31)

      For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times. (124:21)

      It may seem to some to be a very bold doctrine that we talk of—a power which records or binds on earth and binds in heaven. Nevertheless, in all ages of the world, whenever the Lord has given a dispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation, or any set of men, this power has always been given. Hence, whatsoever those men did in authority, in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same, it became a law on earth and in heaven, and could not be annulled, according to the decrees of the great Jehovah. This is a faithful saying. Who can hear it? D&C 128:9

      As you can see, a dispensation is any period of time in which some degree of the gospel, and authority to administer the gospel is made available to God’s people through his authorized servants. The dispensation of the fulness of times is not an exclusive dispensation given to one person, or a few select persons, it is a period time in which the gospel is made available to all who come unto Christ and repent.

      There are lots of periods of gospel dispensation including times during the Old Testament like the Adamic dispensation and the dispensation of Noah and Enoch, etc.

      The D&C speaks of three specific dispensations:

      1- The Dispensation of the “Last Times” which is the dispensation that began with the apostolic mandate in the New Testament. Joseph Smith was laboring under that dispensation when he restored the New Testament Gospel in 1829-30

      2- The Dispensation of the “Fulness of Times”. That is the final dispensation in which all things will be gathered into one. (see Eph 1:10) It was Joseph Smith’s desire to help usher that dispensation in during his ministry in the 2nd watch. The modern church erroneously teaches that he did in fact usher that dispensation in, but the truth is that it was never ushered in. As late as September of 1842 Joseph was still talking about the fact that it was just beginning to be ushered in: “For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in..” (see Section 128) but a careful study reveals that the successful ushering in of that dispensation was never completed. It was to be predicated on the Church repenting and reforming and completing the Nauvoo Temple and restoring the fulness of the priesthood which had been lost.

      3- The Dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham. This dispensation was ushered in, in secret behind the veil, in 1836. Very few people talk much about that dispensation because nobody understands what it is or why it was ushered in at the time that everyone was hoping for the fulness of times to be ushered in. It was ushered in in secret to preserve the roots of the mother tree once the church had rejected the fulness of the gospel.

      Now then. Lets take a look at the statement that Denver made and see if we can make sense of it.

      “Now you tell me, you declare to me, what are your dispensations? (I have one, and Joseph had one, but do you have one also?)”

      Frankly, the statement just doesn’t make any sense in the context of the restored gospel in my opinion.

      I can see only two possibilities for what Denver is trying to communicate.

      The most probable way for his sentence structure to make sense is that he has personally received a special personal right or privilege like Joseph Smith got and that his hearers should be concerned about getting because they have not gotten a special right or privilege for themselves. ( he also may have been implying that he had gotten his calling and election and referring to it as a dispensation, which is not an appropriate use of the term )

      Although that seems to be the most logical message of the narrative, it is not congruent with how the term is used in the context of the restored gospel. It does not conform to the definition given and language used in the scriptures.

      More than likely, what Denver was trying to convey is that he had been given dispensational “keys” just like Joseph Smith had been given dispensational keys.

      There is a high probability that this is what Denver was trying to communicate because he has given some cryptic statements that could indicate that he plans on being the one to lead the elect and re-establish Zion, which would require dispensational keys.

      There are two problems if that is the message that Denver was trying to convey.

      One is that if he had been given the keys to usher in a dispensation, there is no need for his audience to be concerned about getting their own “dispensational keys”. They would simply need to accept Denver’s authority and move forward in repenting and receiving the ordinances and obeying the commandments that the Lord give through Denver, etc..

      The second problem for Denver, if that is what he is trying to convey, is that the Lord does not need him or any other human to usher in a dispensation or to lead the people in establishing Zion. There is only one last dispensation of the Gospel that needs to be ushered in and that is the Dispensation of the Fulness of times.. and Joseph is responsible for returning and administering that dispensation.

      The scriptures are very clear about this. That is the reason we are informed that Joseph holds the keys in this life and the life to come.

      This brings us to one of the biggest blind spots that Denver has. He has never once, to my knowledge, acknowledged the fact that Joseph Smith and the other first laborers of the last kingdom are coming back to fulfill all of the unconditional promises given to them in modern revelation. He seems to be oblivious to the doctrine of the three watches and the second commission of Joseph Smith.

      If you will go to this site, http://threewatches.blogspot.com/ you will see about 70 evidences showing how the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times is going to be ushered in and WHO will usher it in.

      Joseph is the designated servant of the final dispensation NOT DENVER!

      Section 101 provides a template of how Zion will be redeemed. It speaks of the “Servant” of the Lords vineyard who will gather the residue of the servants (the strength of the Lords house) and will break down the walls of the enemy and redeem the vineyard.

      In Section 103 the Lord identifies by name who the servant is that will gather the other servants and redeem Zion.

      Hence, I believe the way that Denver used the term dispensation does not conform to the proper definition given in scripture nor does it make sense in any of the more probable ways that he was attempting to use the word. Most importantly, it is not consistent with what the scriptures have told us.

      If Denver is going to have any credibility in leading a group to establish Zion, with any of his followers that understand the scriptures very well, he needs to interweave into his storyline something about how Joseph has returned and ordained him to be the “front man”, or something like that. That at least appears to be congruent with the prophecies relating to the redemption of Zion. That is what Jim Harmston did and the storyline worked well for a season.

      Section 90 gives a brief description of Joseph’s ministry when he returns.

  20. JennyP1969 says:

    Watcher, thanks for great and good ponderings on visitations not being possible at this time. I’ve been studying this at length.

    When we lived in Southern California, we attended a chapel session at the Los Angeles temple. The president spoke and shared that he had been walking through the temple late one night after sessions and beheld the Savior walking on the stairs– I don’t recall if He was going up or down. But He was there. I remember the Spirit confirming this at that moment. I had been thinking, wait, I thought Christ could not touch mortal ground and other –isms of our teachings.

    I just cannot wrap my mind around this temple president being deceived. To what purpose would the adversary make such an illusion? It strengthens testimonies, not weakens them.

    As to Denver Snuffer, I don’t make a judgment there. I admit I have doubts. I’ve never felt the Spirit regarding his claims. But I did that night in that temple. I cannot deny it.

    I believe the church is under condemnation and that the Savior does not visit the church, so to speak. But the whole earth was under condemnation when the Father and Son appeared to a boy with no priesthood whatsoever.

    Why command us to seek our calling and election rather than command us to prepare to receive it, if it’s not possible to obtain it? Why command us to seek Christ if we cannot find Him?

    Yes, I agree He spoke to His apostles when He said, Lo, I am with you always. But in the latter-day He said what He says unto one, He says unto all. Except that? He didn’t qualify that either statement.

    So, I love you, I’m not trying to be argumentative nor contentious in the least degree. Regarding affairs of the church, I can see Him withholding His face from the saints as a body. I can also see how false Christs can and are being manifest.

    But still, He says He will make private appearances before He comes in glory. Are ALL those to be after the servants return?

    I will continue to study and pray.

    (Just as a kinda odd afterthought, I once dreamed that the event in the Sacred Grove was a type of heavenly-quality hologram in high-def 3D. Smile. Perhaps that’s how visitations are done when there is condemnation and no priesthood.)

  21. JennyP1969 says:

    Point taken.

  22. Wanderer says:

    OWIW quote

    “people who think that they can ponder the scriptures and fast for a few days, etc. and can have the heavens opened and commune with the Father and the Son are delusional. They are suffering from the “strong delusion” spoken of by Paul.

    Having said that… there may be a difference between a “personal visitation” requiring transfiguration vs a “dream” or a “vision”.

    Nevertheless, God usually has something of significance to impart even when a vision or dream is taking place.. thee is a purpose for such a manifestation…”

    The quote above directly relates to one of the questions I have been pondering which is; what is the “cutoff” for expected interaction between God and man?

    Nephi 19: 16 is all I have found at this point regarding some form of revelation/manifestation to a people under condemnation. If anyone can provide something further I would be most appreciative. Thank you

  23. Wanderer says:

    sigh.. lol the above says Nephi. It should say Alma 19: 16. My apologies. Watcher if you can edit that and delete this comment I would appreciate it. take care and thank you.

    • Wanderer

      I did not delete your previous comment because I had a remarkable experience looking at those verses in 1st nephi, 2nd nephi and 3rd Nephi LOL!

      I could actually see how all three passages and associated texts could have provided some interesting discussion! What a coincidence.

      Anyway, the passage in Alma also provides food for thought.

      I would be interestrd in hearing your point of view and anyone else’s on this topic.

  24. JennyP1969 says:

    Just the whole concept of “cutoff” seems inherently wrong to some degree. And yet…..

    • Actually the God of Israel does and has cut off people for many reasons.

      13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
      14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

      15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.

      15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

      The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

      22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

      13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

      3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

      14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

      Here is the use of the term in modern revelation that should trouble Mormons because it is an unconditional promise

      1 HEARKEN unto me, saith the Lord your God, and I will speak unto my servant Edward Partridge, and give unto him directions; for it must needs be that he receive directions how to organize this people. [consecration]
      2 For it must needs be that they be organized according to my laws; if otherwise, they will be cut off.

      Here is a warning directed specifically to Joseph and Sidney

      1 BEHOLD, thus saith the Lord unto the elders whom he hath called and chosen in these last days, by the voice of his Spirit—
      2 Saying: I, the Lord, will make known unto you what I will that ye shall do from this time until the next conference, which shall be held in Missouri, upon the land which I will consecrate unto my people, which are a remnant of Jacob, and those who are heirs according to the covenant.
      3 Wherefore, verily I say unto you, let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon take their journey as soon as preparations can be made to leave their homes, and journey to the land of Missouri.
      4 And inasmuch as they are faithful unto me, it shall be made known unto them what they shall do;
      5 And it shall also, inasmuch as they are faithful, be made known unto them the land of your inheritance.
      6 And inasmuch as they are not faithful, they shall be cut off, even as I will, as seemeth me good.

      Here is the warning to the entire church

      62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.
      63 Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off.

  25. JennyP1969 says:

    2And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

    Weren’t the Israelites under condemnation, as well as Moses?

  26. JennyP1969 says:

    Watcher, remember my comment yesterday regarding the temple experience? I’ve been searching and found this in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2:

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


  27. JennyP1969 says:

    I’ve spent the better part of two days word searching “strong delusion.” There’ amazing stuff on that for all who have Citation Index or other such programs. Watcher has the best stuff, but there is some other out there worth reading, if any are so interested.

  28. GaTechRBall says:

    You mention Dan Rogers’s testimony in your last post.

    There is also another friend of mine who has posted his testimony. http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2013_03_01_archive.html

    There are 6 others that I am aware of in the LDSFF who have seen Christ. I’ve met three of them, so I’ll vouch for their existence. Can’t say for sure about the other 3. =)

    Additionally, my brother has been ministered to by an angel.

    You can say that this is evidence of false prophets, or has he poured out His Spirit upon all flesh; and our sons and our daughters shall prophesy, our old men shall dream dreams, our young men shall see visions?

    How many testimonies would it take before you consider that your paradigm might be in error? Or will you fly apart as glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to your point of view? 😉

    • GaTechRBall

      You need to read section 50 and see what was taking place in the church just prior to the fulness coming in at the Morley Farm in June of 1831. It is business as usual for all sorts of people to start making these claims about angels and second comforter and calling and election, etc.

      The fact that there are lots of people making these claims doesn’t mean that they are valid claims any more than Catholicism is true because there are so many Catholics. It simply means that there are lots of naive, gullible, deceived people out there who are not exorcized in the word of God.

      If you understood prophecy and the doctrine of three watches and how Zion is going to be redeemed, and how the Marvelous Work is a future event, you would realize why these claims are erroneous.

      There would be no need for the coming restoration if the heavens have never been shut.

      There would be no need for the rest of the sealed portion to come forth and for the light to shine forth at the appointed time if people were bypassing the condemnation and getting the full spiritual blessings.

      You are caught up in a grand delusion because you either have not studied the scriptures or you don’t understand them.

  29. Wanderer says:

    I have not ignored the kind offer for participation on the subject. I would love to engage in a great discussion on this subject. I don’t have the tools. I have read quite a bit trying to understand this subject more definitively. Many things come tantalizing close but fall short. To me your thesis appears legitimate, however, it is difficult to accept the magnitude of the conclusion. So many scriptures often appear, at first glance, to contradict your conclusion. On closer examination it is not easy to conclude that they are contradictory. My failings at better understanding the historical settings and peoples the scriptures were being delivered to is a stumbling block of comprehension in many instances when dealing with such information.

    I could fill up much space with quotes and scriptures asking for insight. After going over this for some time I will only ask about a couple of the most interesting, to me, that I have found. Insight and further thoughts are always appreciated.

    Ezekiel 14. and Josephs sermons on the chapter(which I am sure you know).

    LUKE 2:25-26. 36 Curious about the Holy Ghost in this context and how there could be a Prophetess during this period.

    Feel free to make me look silly.

    Thank you.

    • Wanderer-

      If I understand your question, you are wondering “what is the “cutoff” for expected interaction between God and man?”

      Your question is based on some of my strong statements about the heavens being closed and the higher spiritual endowments not being made available during this time, until the breach has been healed and the new dispensation is ushered in, in the third watch. (please correct me is I am misunderstanding the question)

      With regard to your question, you have provided the following three passages of scripture to possibly provide context and additional light to the subject.

      Alma 19: 16
      The Lamanitish woman who had had a vision and believed in God

      Ezekiel 14
      The account of how God wanted his prophet Ezekiel to respond to the elders of Israel that petition the Lord through his Ezekiel for answers, even though they have set up idols in their hearts.

      LUKE 2:25-26. 36
      The account of the elderly man named Simeon upon which the Holy Ghost revealed that he should not see death until he had seen the Christ and also the prophetess Anna who both bore witness through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, of the Christ when they saw Christ when he was presented before the Lord in Jerusalem.

      All of the above accounts provide examples of prophetic people that were receiving visions or revelations via the Holy Ghost even during times of general apostasy and darkness.

      I would make the following distinction. There is a difference between all of those time periods and this one.

      The difference is that the church is not just in apostasy and under condemnation right now. The problem is much more severe.

      Many people think that the extent of our problem is that we are under condemnation per section 84. But that is not correct.

      If we were just under that condemnation, there probably would still be righteous individuals receiving the types of manifestations documented in the above three passages.

      The condemnation that began in Kirtland eventually came to a climax when the church was rejected with their dead in Nauvoo.

      We don’t know the exact date that the rejection took place. My guess is that it happened in September of 1841. Regardless, it had definitely happened by the time that the saints had to flee from Nauvoo.

      Once the fulness of the Gospel is restored to the earth and then rejected causing the church of God to be rejected by God, the everlasting covenant has been broken and all of the blessings associated therewith are severed until the covenant is restated.

      I apologize for the delay in the continuation of my series… with will cover this in greater detail, but, here are a few tidbits of what Joseph said in his letter to N. C. Saxton, written January 4th 1833 which was to be published in a newspaper (although not all of his declarations were published)

      1- The covenant had never previously been collectively established with the House of Israel or the House of Judah prior to the new testament apostles going forth to the Gentiles because a valid agreement requires two parties to be agreed. During the time of the Saviors ministry the Jews were broken off because they refused to enter into the agreement (I believe there is a difference between being “broken off” for refusing to enter into covenant vs. being “REJECTED” for breaking the covenant that had been entered into.

      2- AFter the Jews refused to enter into covenant, the Apostles took the gospel to the Gentiles and they did enter into the covenant.

      3- As of that date (January 1833) the Gentiles had broken the covenant. He used Isaiah 24:5 for his documentation:

      The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

      He further declared that the Gentiles “have become high minded and have not feared therefore but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family Has not the pride highmindedness and unbelief of the Gentiles provoked the holy one of Israel to withdraw his holy spirit from them and send forth his Judgments to scourge them for their wick edness; this is certianly the case, Christ said to his deciples Mark 16, 17 & 18 that these signs should follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out Devils they shall speap [speak] with new tongues they shall take up serpants and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, and also in connection with this read 1 Corinthians 12 Chapt, By the foregoing testamonies or through the glass of the foregoing testamonies we may look at the Christian world and see the apostacy there has been from the Apostolic platform, and who can look at this, and and not exclaim in the language of Isaiah, [“]the earth is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the Laws; changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant”

      The Lord has declared to his servants some Eighteen months since that he was then withdrawing his spirit from the earth, and we can see that such is the fact for not only the churches are dwindling away, but there are no convers[i]ons, or but very few, and this is not all, the governments of the earth are thrown into confusion & division, and distruction to the eye of the spiritual beholder seemes to be writen by the finger of an invisable hand in Large capitals upon almost evry thing we behold——

      Joseph noted that the withdrawal of Gods spirit had caused a vail of stupidity over the hearts of the people and that the judgments of God were currently falling upon the world.

      4- Joseph then gave the remedy that could enable the Gentiles to pull out of their situation at that time if they would repent at that time. He was also, in fact, prophesying of what would need to take place when the final opportunity opens up in the 3rd watch:

      “And now what remains to be done under circumstan[c]es like these, I will proce[e]d to tell you what the Lord requires of all people high and Low, rich and poor, male and female, ministers & people professors of religeon, and nonproffessors in order that they may enjoy the holy spirit of God to a fulness, and escape the Judg ments of God which are almost ready to burst upon the nations of the earth— Repent of all your sins and be baptized in water for the remission of them, in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost, and receive the ordinance of the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power, that ye may receive the holy spirit of God, and this according to the holy scriptures, and of the Book of Mormon; and the only way that man can enter into the Celestial kingdom. These are the requesitions of the new Covenant or first principles of of the Gospel of Christ”

      5- Joseph Noted that a remnant of the Lords people who had complied with the requisitions of the new covenant had already commenced gathering to Zion (over 800 saints had gathered there by 1832 and 1200 by July of 1833!) and he gave a warning to those who are not complied with the covenant to Repent and embrace the everlasting covenant! (The saints in Jackson would be expelled within seven months of this letter to Mr Saxton. One revelation states that some of the saints had sinned. Another revelation places the responsibility upon the unbelieving Gentiles that cast the saints out)

      Joseph SMiths parting words in the letter he wanted published were:

      Rem[em]ber these things, call upon the Lord while he is near and seek him while he may be found is the exhortation of your unworthy servant.
      Joseph Smith Jr

      As you can see, the the Gentiles collectively entered into covenant and then collectively broke the everlasting covenant and then were collectively rejected by God as a church with their dead until the dispensation of the fulness of times enables the broken covenant to be re-established. The Lord is not near nor can he be found, until those with the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times return and repair the breach, for thus sayeth the prophets.

  30. Wanderer says:

    Your response was correct in every sense. Thank you. With one edited word, noted by **, the material you present and the discussions that ensue make me recall the following words.

    “It is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men,engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their ** salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.”

  31. ES says:


    When you talk about the Church being rejected have you given much thought to “Which” church was rejected?

    In case I am being a bit obtuse in meaning let me explain… In Section 115 you point out that it is the first time the Lord uses the phrase “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” he does this as a descriptor of the scattered church. In comparison to the other Church the Lord called the “Church in Zion”

    Thus the Lord as of 115 clearly sees two distinct by closely related Churches. So which one was rejected?

    To me it seems there is only one choice. The Church in Zion. Its the only one that can be reasonably expected to have the resources to build the Temple and House, or to perform baptisms for the dead in a dedicated building, and since it has a place it can be removed from its place. The scattered Church (CoJCLDS) strikes me has having neither the ability to fulfill the command nor suffer the punishment as defined by the Lord.

    Thus it seems to me that the punishment from the Lord fell on the Church in Zion.

    Now if I am remembering correctly the Quorum of the 12 were defined in the scriptures as the leaders of the Church outside of the Stakes of Zion or in other words the scattered Church. Which if my analysis is correct means after the dust settles of the Lord’s Rejection of the Church of Zion would be Quorum of the 12 leading the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only thing that is left. A Church that can’t establish Zion nor preside there. A Church that can really only fulfill its charge of missionary work. The charge to convince the Jews of Christ, and most likely because of this have the burden of the Dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham.

    Which seems to me to be what has happened. What do you think?

    • You present a well thought out scenario. One I have considered and, to some degree, one that I still agree with, at least typologically.

      It seems logical that the quorum of the Twelve would be the ones to take over leadership of the church once the Saints had rejected the fulness and the window of time for establishing Zion had closed and once the time had come to take the gospel from the Gentiles to the scattered Jews in foreign countries. I have even suggested in my series addressing succession that, that one point is perhaps the strongest argument that the LDS church has in it’s favor as far as succession and right of leadership is concerned.

      In essence, the twelve were commissioned to take the lesser, preparatory gospel to the nations once the fulness was rejected and to orchestrate keeping the roots alive, per the allegory in Jacob.

      Here is where I get a little indigestion.

      I used to believe that section 115 represented the adding of the name of Christ back into the name of the restored churches that were scattered, back during the Far West era, while it was designating those gathering to the appointed places of gathering as the “church of Zion”, back during that time.

      In fact many of my old posts still present that scenario because I am too lazy to go back and change them to my current understanding.

      However, after pondering why God would put his name back into the name of the church in Far West, after taking his name out of the name of the church in Kirtland, when in fact the church was just as apostate in Far West as they were in Kirtland, (perhaps even more apostate) I have been forced to revisit section 115 and drill down a little further in my analysis of it.

      In so doing, I have arrived at a different interpretation of what section 115 is really saying.

      I now believe that section 115 is a prophecy of the future. It is speaking about the 3rd watch. It is stating that once the servants return and establish Zion, there will basically be two divisions of Gods people that have entered back into covenant:

      1- Those who have gathered and consecrated in Zion,
      2- and those still outside of Zion who are endeavoring to get to Zion.

      I believe verse 5 is a dead giveaway. It is paraphrasing Isaiah 60 which is speaking of the third watch. God has all time past present and future continually before his eyes and he often skips to future scenarios about the 3rd watch when speaking to his people during the 2nd watch.

      Compare verse 5 of Section 115 with verses 1-5 of Isaiah 60

      “Verily I say unto you all, Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations..”

      ARISE, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
      2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
      3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
      4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
      5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee

      Clearly, the Lord was speaking about the future work when the light shine will shine forth into a dark apostate world and begin the Marvelous Work.

      With that epiphany, I then backed up to verse 3 and 4 in section 115 and realized that those who are gathered in Zion “shall be called” called the “church in Zion” and those who are scattered “shall be called” the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints” in the future.

      Once the servants return and re-establish the covenant and begin taking the fulness of the Gospel to the world, there will basically be two groups of believing Saints. Those gathered and consecrated and those who are outside stakes of Zion awaiting their opportunity to gather.

      I believe the Lord spoke cryptically because it was according to his will that the apostate saints believed they were still intact and could be enthusiastic in their mandate to take the Book of Mormon and the knowledge of the gospel to the world.

      This would set up an organization that would deliver the pure truth as contained in the book of Mormon and modern revelations while also teaching damnable heresies. The modern church is involved in Good and Evil, just as it was prophesied by Moroni that Joseph would be known for good and evil. This is because there must be opposition in all things.

      I still believe that the saints that followed the Twelve to Utah play a very important role in taking the knowledge of the gospel to the world and in keeping the roots alive until the Marvelous Work begins, however, I think they have been presumptuous in taking the name of the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints” and in teaching that they are the restored church with the fulness of priesthood.

      They are unworthy of taking upon them the name of Christ at this time and it shows in just about everything they do.

      When the light shines forth, everyone who repents and flees from Babylon will either be called the Church in Zion or, if they are in other parts of the world, outside the stakes of Zion, they will rightly be called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

      In essence, I conceptually agree with the scenario you detailed, however I believe those who call themselves the Latter day Saints are suffering from delusions of grandeur, thinking they are worthy of being called by the name of Christ. and have the fulness, and that God is please with them, when in fact, they will need to repent and enter into covenant when the covenant is reestablished.

      This is largely why the Lord commanded Joseph and Oliver to keep quiet about the events documented in section 110.

      At the very time when everyone was expecting the dispensation of the fulness of times to be ushered in and for Zion to be established, God secretly ushered in an ancient Abrahamic dispensation governed by Levitical priesthood so that when the condemned church would finally be completely rejected AS CHRISTS CHURCH a few years later, those that would follow the Twelve could still function as a tribal organization with a very real mandate and calling, even though they would be presumptuous in the claims they would make to the world.

      If I have not sufficiently confused everyone about how I feel about this topic, I would be happy to expound some more to make sure that everyone is sufficiently confused LOL

      Thank you for sharing you thoughtful observations ES

  32. ES says:

    Moving it to the third watch would indeed change the understanding.

    I got started on this line of thought my your comment of needing more charity toward the 12 (both old and current). That lead me to think that it is very hard to have charity toward a people or group if we dwell on their flaws and short comings… That in fact leads in the exact opposite direction. So that lead me to the idea that maybe the 12 are operating as the Lord commanded in the scriptures. (Not as is commonly believed but as limited as command dictate) Which is basically missionary work.

    • I must admit, I waffle back and forth between charity and condemnation.

      Clearly, God wanted a moving force in the world that was putting energy into promoting the Book of Mormon and giving people the opportunity to prepare themselves for the greater light that is coming. The Church is fulfilling that mandate. For that reason, we should acknowledge that work that is being done and of course we should have charity for all men, including those that are taking the knowledge of the Gospel to the world via the Book of Mormon.

      On the other hand, those that want to know the truth at all costs, and that want to drill down as far as possible, and avoid being deceived, often arrive at some very sobering conclusions and cannot avoid the reality that while the church is doing a good work, they are also teaching some very seriously flawed doctrines, making false claims, and encouraging people to put their faith in the arm of flesh.

      I know I come off as being schizophrenic in my writings because one day I am sticking up for the church and their mission and encouraging compassion, and on other days I am ripping on the church. It largely depends on which side of the bed I am getting up on.. LOL

      It is a very complex and disconcerting situation to be in.

  33. Fusion says:

    One of the things that led me to open my eyes was Hinckley’ classic cop outs of ‘I don’t know! We don’t know!’ each time he was asked a question that he, as a supposed living prophet, SHOULD know, especially since he was unwavering in his testimony that no one else could know as only he held the keys of authoritatively not knowing!

    Monson impacted this further by not only not knowing, and having full authority to not do so, but also strangely barely ever doing the other thing a prophet is ought to be doing- testifying of Jesus and of the main element of the uniqueness of this church: the Book of Mormon. Of course he has the authority to not do this too.

    I thus came across this in my search today to see if i am right in my assumption that Monson doesn’t testify.


    i believe that Monson is right to never testify. After all he has the authority to not testify something he and Gordon don’t actually believe in themselves. Unfortunately, this has gotten infectious amongst his peers.


  34. Ryan says:


    Observation #9 was very insightful. Thank you for sharing.

  35. Adam says:

    I went through talks that President Monson has given in conference because this sparked my curiosity. Not all, But I did find examples of him bearing his testimony.

  36. sfort says:

    I believe it is critical not to spend our valuable time on earth trying to find fault with this whole issue. We realize the import of lost power from on high. The good that is represented today is very beneficial to us. For example: the values and virtues program of Young Womens is unmatched in the world. Duty to God is also amazing. There will be enlightenment soon. We must not dwell on misplaced policy which is different from continuous inspiration to hold together the Lord’s method of delivering us in these last days. He is in control. He knows we all want to know more. Continually finding the ah ha’s and the gotcha’s with the entity of the Church today will not help us find the enlightenment we all need. I read on a blog where one thought Gordon B. Hinckley was an anti-christ. Really? The scrutinizing is only applicable when we are depending on another for light and knowledge we are entitled to through striving to be holy. Let us seek for the good that is coming while searching our past and framing it within the beauty that is arriving soon.

    • I think that if the spirit has told you to be happy with the current status of the church and to only look for the good, that is what you should do. If that is the case, it is strange that you would spend more than a few minutes on a site like this.

      In my own particular case, the spirit has told me to watch and pay attention to what has happened from the beginning of the restoration to the present day. I am interested in finding every true doctrine that has been changed and every true ordinance that has been changed and to try to avoid offending God whenever possible. I feel like my salvation depends on diligently and relentlessly uncovering the truth. I believe that for me, those things are essential, to prepare myself for the enlightenment that is coming.

      I am of the belief that many members of the church will reject the enlightenment that is coming for the express reason that they love the current false doctrines, false mode of worship and “programs” offered that are unmatched in the world, while making a concerted effort to avoid being critical of the leaders. It is that kind of blind followership that has put us in this situation.

      It is one thing for people to avail themselves of those aspects of the modern church that they value and think are productive, but quite another to make a deliberate effort to avoid every possible opportunity to understand how the saints have lost their way and what we do wrong that is offensive to God.

      Leaders of the church need to be scrutinized.

      They have created a vacuum in which they reside where there are no legitimate checks and balances and no recourse by the membership to challenge them. They have convinced themselves and the membership that they are infallible and that God will not allow them to do anything seriously wrong. The church membership at large has bought into this belief.

      At the beginning of the restoration there were safety measures set up that provided checks and balances and methods of reprimanding, correcting or even removing wicked and un-Godly leaders who infiltrate the organization. Sadly those safeguards have all been removed within the church. The law of common consent is no longer used as a legitimate and valuable way for members to challenge false doctrines, bad policies and uninspired callings. It is now used as a test to see who is noble and obedient and who is divisive and contrary to the rulers of the kingdom.

      One of the reasons I love to share my research in cyberspace is so that those who are offended by it can avoid it and those that are seeking and searching for the hard truth can find it. I have tried to warn people about the deep waters and disruptive information that is found on this site, nevertheless, from time to time some people gravitate to this site that don’t want to evaluate this information.

      There are undoubtedly false assumptions and false accusation presented from time to time in forums such as this one. Those also need to be scrutinized which I think we do a pretty good job of doing. The research paper that was presented had an interesting supposition that was worthy of evaluating. I followed up with a post by FAIR that challenged the research and another commenter also did their research and challenged the premise. I desire to flesh out the truth on both sides of all issues that are discussed on this forum.

      I do not try to suppress any contrary views that provide credible documentation.

      TRUTH is the goal.

  37. sfort says:

    I believe you missed the gist of the comment. It is not a matter of emphasis on dissatidfaction as it is in embracing truth when presented. Trying to prove Monson is a prophet or not or any other past President is not moving in a direction toward light. I think that some who get revved up when they find out something is not kosher might be a beginning stage; however, dwelling on proving that the Church is trying to keep people asleep to the more abundant truth may not execute a positive journey. The sites that bring out truth regarding our past is very important. The business of Preisthood taken is important. Looking forward to upcoming spiritual events in transition to the Second Coming is important. We all know the Spirit does not dwell with negativity. Keeping facts abound for our enlightenment is important. Once the “news is out”, rehashing it is useless. Details then become more antaginistic in theri presentation. Knowledge is power, negativity is depriving. Remember that my last comment was to embrace truth with the framing of our history to create our awakening. That is all. Ther is no avoiding here or delusion with the current status of the Church or general authorities. I have mentioned with my family for years that something was missing; while all along I sought for charity and serving. I was critical of most “policy driven” Church movements, knowing that the mantle of the Prophet had changed and that the Saints were works driven and “church stuck”. I am not naive. I still believe framing the history with faith to the future is critical, and our that faith is generated in positive forward looking pathways. Please re-read my last comment to understand that your work is vital, but not to create a ferver from your readers to distain.

  38. Ryan says:

    I agree with sfort.

    There is more good inside the church than outside of it.

    And to encourage or elude that someone would be better off finding fault with the church and becoming disaffectionate is more damning in ones progression in my opinion than to be awake and inside of it awaiting the return of the first laborers.

    Because they’re not coming to another body of people are they? RLDS? Temple Lot? Snufferites (LOL)?

    • “And to encourage or elude that someone would be better off finding fault with the church and becoming disaffectionate ”

      Did I do this?

      I don’t recall doing that.

      I have always stated that I have no agenda with regard to what people decide to do regarding the church. That is a personal decision each person needs to make for themselves.

      The purpose of this blog is to watch.

      It is to pay attention.

      It is to determine what happened in the past, what the current state of affairs is and what is going to happen in the future.

      Those who want to find solace in the church and who find the the disruptive content on this blog detrimental to their church membership really should not be here.

      I am not hear to tickle anyone’s ears or to help them feel good about the religious decisions they make.

      Quite honestly, as much as I love ALL of the commenters that visit this blog, I am baffled as to why many of you keep coming back to it because it is obviously creating consternation in your lives.

      The theme of this blog is not going to change. The act of scrutinizing those who claim to be prophets, whether inside or outside of the church, is going to continue to be an important focus of this blog

      • sfort says:


        The thoughts of those concerning content have no consternation. We all realize your efforts completely, and as you stated, you are watching. Those expressing their thoughts do not bare malice and intend no offense. You do not need to defend your position. The reason people come to this blog is to learn, period. Our lives are busy and cannot be filled with needless debate over intent. We all have many things to do to continue our sojourn here. I believe all those who are watching closely will find their way regardless, and no “one comment” will change their path. All these facts and the searching of scriptures is amazing and fantastic. We all want the same thing. Your position is set and admirable. Thoughts from participants are just thoughts. Keep up the quest.

  39. Ryan says:

    Sorry Watcher if you felt that I was singling you out, I wasn’t. I love this blog and what it stands for and how it’s forced me to look at things differently and to become awakened, per se.

    My comment was a general one to the one that sfort made about another site making the claim that GBH was the anti-Christ.

    Clearly they were wrong. It’s TSM. LOL. No, I don’t really believe that.

    Clearly all those that call themselves prophets or that are sustained as such need to have their fruits analyzed against the holy word of God.

    I think you misjudge those that come to your site and that stick around. Awakening is a process not a one time event. Those that keep coming back are slowly learning new things or slowly having their eyes opened to gain knowledge. At least I am. I don’t know of any other site that dives as deep and as literal into the scriptures as you do. I LOVE that!

  40. Fusion says:

    I am not sure there is more good inside the Church than out of it. LDS folk are insular, and thus we think that we are a microcosm of the world that surrounds us.

    The world is much bigger than our perception of it, and it takes walking out of the insular society, and into the wilderness to really find out that there IS much more good outside the Church institution than one could imagine. I am NOT recommending this to ANYONE, but this is what I did and like Lot in the Old testament, not look

    There is an unbelievable amount of truly good people…some have barely even heard of Jesus. I can only imagine these precious souls when the servants of the Lord return.

    Watcher, it is your very position on this blog that keeps me glued. Thank you for your come-what-may approach to the truth.

    Now, for everyone’s viewing pleasure, here’s a Master Gadianton teaching the Noble Art of Self-Deceit. Take notes…or die laughing at the audacity of the snake:


    • sfort says:

      I think, Fusion, you took an obtuse talk from Millet to represent not finding Christ. It doesn’t support your position there is more good outside of the Church. God is in control and he will perform his works as he sees fit, regardless of incidental men tring to display His functions. The Priesthood is on the earth and it is up to those who have it, what form they have, to do His will. It is contained in faith, hope, and charity. Using His will, after seeking it, is the key. Most will not do anything with the knowledge they have obtained. The framework the Church, as it exists, provides many ways for thoise who don’t do anything with what they have, to participate in uplifting others. Using truth as a banner, you can do many great things in the Lord’s behalf. The Church, as I see it, is allowed to limp along for this very purpose. Truth is everywhere. Let’s not run away from that which we have received. I hope you understand the spirit whith which this was intended.

  41. Ryan says:


    My comment about there being more good in the church than out is that that there are NO good people out of it, because I don’t believe it.

    Is that those that usually leave the church tend to find themselves in forbidden paths. Not all go that way but the majority if those that I know have unfortunately.

    So my comments were that there is safely for the soul for those that aren’t able to maintain a righteous way of life outside the church. The siren call of the great and spacious building is just too alluring.

    25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

    26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

    27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

    28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

    (1 Nephi 8:25-28)

  42. Ryan says:

    I should proofread while on my phone before posting.

    It should have read…

    My comment about there being more good in the church than out is not that there are NO good people out of it, because I don’t believe it.

  43. David says:

    Wow! 78 replies to date on this last posting Watcher!!!

    After reading sfort, Ryan and Fusion’s replys I was in gratitude for each of their perspectives! Good people that are an inspiration to me, and I hope and pray, to others as well.

    I would like to see if I could shed a little light on the perspectives of those who participate in the Truth that this blog brings forth and endorses.

    I personally can’t handle Untruth of any degree or nature, just a problem that I have! Watcher, I feel that your explanation of your intent and your searching for the “Truth in All Things” is how you roll! Praise God!

    Leaving the church for ones own sanity is ones own choice, obviously! Staying in the church for ones own salvation is again, ones own choice. Assumption and presumption!? I have had the pleasure of home teaching and helping those who were stumbling gain a new appreciation for their membership in the church and I have listened with an OPEN HEART to those who were stumbling within the insular confines of the church listening to to many of the likes of this Millett video!

    I myself had not been able to get answers to my questions as I have been engaged in reading D&C as much as the BoM, the Bible and PoGP throughout my journey. Aren’t they all of Equal importance!? I was able to discern much truth in my seeking, searching, praying an knocking upon reading all of the canon and found along my journey that most of the members spend their time reading only the BoM! Huge mistake! Although I believe that it is the most correct book upon the face of the earth, one cannot appreciate that fact without gaining the truth that supports the fact without studying deeply into the entire canon.

    I chose to leave the church without building a case for fault with the church. I simply could not tolerate the answers that stake presidents and bishops were expounding right in my face and my families! It has been an incredible further awakening to the realities of what false doctrine can do to good intentioned people who enjoy having their ears lubed with saliva infused words instead of the pure words of our Savior.

    Each of us arrive to the truth sooner or later depending on how steadfastly we have been in our studies with the Word of God and being tutored by the Holy Spirit first and foremost instead of the filtering of other men’s perceptions an preceptions. I have been blessed to have had a mother who questioned everything as we studied numerous religions, not because she doubted, but because she was a pure truth seeker! So, I was able to be “Aware and Discern Truth” at an very early age because the false traditions of my fathers were evident when my own father was baptized into the church, an my mothers mentoring conditioned me to ask every question and get all of the answers and then take the information gained to the Holy Spirit with an open heart, so that you can be instructed by the Spirit and receive verification and validation of all truth!

    Leaving the church has been an enormous blessing in my life as I have taken the time that I spent serving others and listening to well intentioned mis-informed individuals to serve my family more in being “Aware, and sharpening their Discernment” by delving into the Word and allowing the Spirit a chance to teach them more exponentially by “Opening the Heart!” I have a large family that was taught to do as I was taught to do by my mother. It has been profound!!! Beyond my wildest dreams!!! Because, I allowed each of them to decide for themselves and did not interfere with their faith building, foundation building, by interjecting anything other than to be Aware and to Discern carefully all things you allow to enter your ears, eyes and consciousness, I admonished the Spirit to keep my peace for my entire fatherhood until last year when the Spirit prompted

  44. David says:

    Me to reveal all the truth that I have received through my journey to my family as the whole “church thing” was coming to a head with many elements in the church, my family, my leaving and most importantly, The Truth! It was like a dam having to finally give way!

    The timing was everything! Because, I having developed my truth seeking by the Spirit had a prompting to get on the Internet and find a SECOND WITNESS!

    I was led to Watcher so quickly because I had developed a unique ability to to discover what the messenger is saying in his message very quickly with an open heart and not waste any time on the Snuffers or others like him that popped up!

    I believe that this blog is “the source” for those who are truly seeking and searching for all truth without having it filtered through what a man exclaims, but by the Holy Word of God! Praise God! I have read to date over 97% of Watchers incredible work and have not found any untruths contained therein! I have witnessed Watchers growth in a snapshot as earlier posts that did not contain all truth were follewed up with further truth and light!

    The beauty of choices is that one can decide that one is getting more from one side, in church, or the other side, out of church, or BOTH!

    The bottom line is that people should not come on this site thinking they need to defend the position, the goodness of the church to others, as that is an attempt to allow their “own feelings” to come out instead of the truth. The information on this blog is for those who are getting what they are asking for whether they know it or not, or believe it or not! Truth cannot be withheld, period!

    One of my favorite sayings is, “Be careful for what you ask for, or don’t ask for!!!” why? Because truth can be so foreign to one who has not taken the Holy Spirit as their guide! Most people have no idea how corrupt the world is right under their noses because they really don’t want to know so that they can continue on living the “American Lie!” the “American Dream died upon the advent of the Internet!

    And on top of that, if one wants to see Jesus Christ when one has not discovered the supporting truth that one cannot see Him at this time, then one will see a Christ! Guaranteed! Remember, be extremely careful for what you ask for, and where your heart is and what your heart is yearning for!

    I desperately want to see Jesus Christ! But, upon my understanding of how our God covenants with His people and who He gives Charge to administering those covenants, or the “Keys to the Kindom” or, “The Keys to a Dispensation” to, is everything for one to not be deceived!

    Five years ago, when I decided that I had a cupful of this false doctrine, I chose to tread lightly amongst my tribe, extended family and friends because I wasn’t reaching them as I sent out feelers to discern where they were in their truth expedition!

    Upon discovering someone (Watcher) who has helped me connect many of the dots that the Spirit led me too, I have become bolder in my approach to how things really are and I have decidedly come to say what I have always known in my journey, and that is how Fusion lays it down! The church is the church of Gadianton of Scattered Say Saints! I know that sounds horrific to some, but we are clearly taught that God does not look upon sin with any exceptions, period! I pray for the “brethren and members” always because we are all Gods children, but the truth is the truth, period!

    All is not only, Not Well in alter Zion! All better wake up very, very soon so that all is not completely caught off guard! Look at the government and then with an open heart look at the church! When one sees and hears that one cannot challenge the hierarchy of either State institution to correct itself then one must flee! As Ether 8:24 so clearly describes! The Awful State! What a clue! Wow!

    Here’s the challenge that a member of this church must do, and it is so easy! Read Doctrine and Covenants 1 forward, backward, inside out and upside down! And then do that in reverse, breaking out key words, key word groups, key phrases and key groups of verses and pray and ponder that one section for as long as it takes to get the message!!! Then once you go, AHA!!! Do the very same thing with D&C 3!!! I believe that those 2 sections unlock the “Mysteries of the Kingdom!” in that they set The Foundation for understanding all of the scriptures with greater clarity and depth to understand is to stand under the truth so that one can then stand upon that truth!

    A huge clue is what Moses was asked to do before God gave further instruction before speaking to Moses from the burning bush!

    Anyone that is seeking more than what they already have in rich blessings in both spiritual and temporal things is only goung to continue to be frustrated and confused

  45. David says:

    Going to be more frustrated, and more importantly, possibly be DECEIVED!

    What was the very first commandment? What Is the third word of Genesis 3? Why did Christ admonish us to be “Wise as Serpents?” and “Be ye not deceived? Nor, deceive yourselves!”

    Watcher, thank you for all of your time and energy into assisting many to dis-cover(clue) the truth! I have learned more from Chuck Missler as of recent than I have from my 4 decades of membership listening to niceties coming from the pulpits of the great and spacious building all the way down to the pulpits in my wards!

    Man, imagine good ‘ole Chuck laying it down with the BoM, D&C and the PoGP! Holy freakin moly!!! Maybe you could be the one!? With a mask on that looks like good ‘ole Tommy!?!? Ha ha!

    Seriously, thank you Watcher! My understanding of the Bible has gone quantum! But more than that, thank you for your work on the Atonement Statute and your work on D&C Section 110, profound indeed! I thank God every day for another day! Another day to scour the Word, to receive further truth and light that so I can enhance the truth and light that I have already received!

    We live in a day where the good of the church is coming to a close as the bad that has corrupted the church for 180 years is more than our Lord can further allow. And he starts here, in His house to do His cleansing, with His servants!

    There is gonna be a “whole lotta shakin goin on here in es El see real soon! Grab hold of something! Grab hold of some truth so ya don’t get caught off guard! Peace.

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