A Spirit-filled Reading of CONTENT and CONTEXT is all that Matters in Mystical Christianity- Part Two

His Next Response

Watcher,

I can easily understand how the word Lucifer got into the King James
Bible.  After all the KJ Bible is a translation of a translation.
What I can’t understand is how all of these known errors associated with the 1776 KJ Bible got into the Book of Mormon.  When you read the accounts of the translation process it doesn’t make sense.  Unless of course they were taken straight out of the KJ Bible in the first
place.

It doesn’t surprise me that keyword searches produce so many parallels between the restoration and the Bible.  I mean Joseph, Sidney, and many others knew the Bible inside and out.  It was a
foundation for all of their work.  Not only is there a ton of direct quotes from the Bible in the Book of Mormon, but the parallels between many of the stories are striking.  Joseph uses a mix of bible quotes and language all throughout Doctrine and Covenants.

I guess my point is as a member of the Church when your eyes are opened to the issues you initially want to hold on to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. It is a pattern I see all the time.  It is what happened to me and why I found your Blog so comforting.

Then however when you take an in depth look at the foundational issues as well as problems the Book of Mormon faces, I think you have to come to terms with the possible situation.  I did start my Journey into the LDS Church based on feelings I got when I prayed.  However I prayed about a book I knew nothing about aside from reading things in it that were taken straight
out of the Bible.

The same goes for Joseph Smith.  In the new  Testament the way Jesus tells us to Judge a Prophet is by his fruits which are his doctrine and Prophecies.  When I prayed about him I for
sure wasn’t presented with an accurate picture of any of it.

One of the most confusing things I have heard you say is that no matter if the Papyri are proven to contain nothing about Abraham, you still believe in it because the book stands on its own.  I don’t feel faith is believing in something that you can prove is false beyond a shadow
of a doubt.  The papyri are not what Joseph said they were.

Sure there is some doctrine in the book of Abraham that you probably feel makes sense.  That is the danger of all of the restoration.  It was created to make sense, to answer questions that hadn’t been answered.  It doesn’t make it the right answer though.  You have said before that
people of different religions have a different spirit that you can feel with them.  I think that the spirit that I felt witness to me about the Book of Mormon was not the Holy Ghost.   I honestly feel like it was Satan, and God allowed that because I took the wrong
approach to finding truth.

Feelings aren’t an accurate way to discern truth.  I spent some time in the middle east when I was in the Air Force.  Those Muslims that I was around felt strong feelings too. Strong enough to give their life for, yet I don’t feel it was from God.  Just like the accounts of the first vision.  When I take an in depth look at those along with what the 1830 edition of the Book of
Mormon said and the JST of the Bible, I can see that he believed in one God at the time.  His view on that evolved over time just like most of his doctrine.

I told you before I had major issues with the way he changed the revelations from the Book of Commandments to the Doctrine and Covenants.  On the one hand you use patterns and logic to prove things, but in regards to the changing of the revelations you said that God doesn’t think like we think.  Which I agree, but the deeper I dig into the historical context of his environment, his magical world view, and the crisis he was facing with people leaving left and right, I can’t help but see a major deception.

I hope this doesn’t offend you, but I have come to the Conclusion that he was never a Prophet to begin with.

My Response

Hey it does not offend me at all. You bring up some great points . I believe you are going through the refiners fire like all of us. I totally understand where you are coming from.

 

I think there is a very important place for critical thinking in religion. In fact, there is not enough critical thinking in the early stages of a person’s conversion to the gospel, in my opinion.

 

BTW I posted our previous responses in a post because I think the issues being discussed are really important. Of course, I did not reveal your name. I hope that is ok with you…

 

I am leaving for a while but when I get back I will re-read this last email and see if I have a response for you. In fact, I am definitely going to have a long detailed response to your comments above as well as the comments you have since sent to me in an email. I plan on posting part three of this series AFTER I finish the current series I am in.

 

Although I completely disagree with your current findings, I TOTALLY RESPECT YOU after hearing why your have doubt.

 

In fact, I respect you much more than I respect mindless members of the church that never ask questions, because you have a true desire to get to the truth at all costs and that is what I call integrity. If we don’t have integrity, we don’t have anything worthwhile. Membership in the church cannot save people that are void of personal integrity.

 

You said-

 

Feelings aren’t an accurate way to discern truth.

 

This may surprise you, but I actually agree with that statement although I would modify it a little bit. “feelings without critical thinking, research, knowledge of the facts, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit aren’t an accurate way to discern truth

 

I have blogged about this before. God speaks to people in their HEART and in their MIND. Those that only use one of those organs to think, will be deceived. The Inspired Version of the Bible informs us that the heart is an intelligent, thinking organ with a mind of its own. Modern Revelation informs us that God speaks to us through BOTH our mind (brain) and our heart if we are in tune.

 

People who go 100% of feelings, in my opinion have a 100% chance of being deceived… period.

 

Human feelings are a completely unreliable way to discern truth.

 

However, I believe the opposite is true also.

 

Those that do not allow the Holy Ghost to influence their research and feelings while searching out the facts, and only allow the intellect of the natural mind of the natural man to sort things out also have 100% chance of being deceived, in my opinion.

 

You said,

 

I think that the spirit that I felt witness to me about the Book of Mormon was not the Holy Ghost.   I honestly feel like it was Satan, and God allowed that because I took the wrong approach to finding truth.

 

That statement is probably going to shock a few people.

 

Frankly, I think you are probably correct. However, I suspect that most of us were initially converted by scratch. I will expound on this when I resume this series having to do with your observations and concerns.

 

Anyway, I enjoy communicating with people who doubt because they have the personal integrity to search things out, much more than I enjoy communicating with those in the church that are spiritually and intellectually brain-dead and don’t have the personal integrity to question anything… so don’t consider me to be your enemy just because we don’t see eye to eye.

 

Again, I plan on returning to address why the other issues you have brought up do not bother me anymore and I appreciate you engaging me in these very important topics.

 

Watcher

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18 Responses to A Spirit-filled Reading of CONTENT and CONTEXT is all that Matters in Mystical Christianity- Part Two

  1. Terry Displaced RLDS says:

    This stuff has been driving me crazy for a long time,to feel or not to feel that is the question,as well as think. I am not going to leave the faith o no, when i read the BM-DC the words just ring so true to me,why has no one else claimed to be profit, and came up with a book of some kind to draw many unto himself. or any thing that would appear like any kind of revelation. James Strang had the BOOK OF THE LAW OF THE LORD,.i don’t know if you have ever commented on that befor. I am sure that this stuff takes place amongst the splinter groups. but if someone was charismatic enough there is a lot of cash to be had fleecing the congregations..

  2. This stuff has been driving me crazy for a long time,to feel or not to feel that is the question,as well as think. I am not going to leave the faith o no, when i read the BM-DC the words just ring so true to me

    Praise God

    “but if someone was charismatic enough there is a lot of cash to be had fleecing the congregations..”

    there are two interesting videos about L Ron Hubbard . One by his son and one by his grand son, exposing him and quoting him as saying, if you want to make a lot of money, start a religion…

  3. Bounce Back says:

    I’ve been reading and watching a lot of Chuck Missler since you mentioned him on one of your blogs a long time ago. Both you and Chuck approach the scriptures at the very outset the same way.

    Once you have received a testimony through your mind and your heart that the scriptures are true, you approach all apparent discrepancies with the basis that the scriptures are true.

    Chuck quotes Genesis,”….God created the heavens and the earth….” then he continues by saying, if you believe Genesis it answers so many questions. Believing first and then approaching all questions of the revealed Word based on reading them, then searching them and praying about them is a faith based way to discern truth.

    If you have to try to figure out that the scriptures are true or not every time you find an “apparent discrepancy” it seems to me that that is a doubt filled approach to searching for truth.

    There have been so many times that I have found discrepancies that bothered me. Since I knew the scriptures were true I prayerfully searched for the answers. Sometimes the answers came slowly, sometimes the answers have presented themselves miraculously. Sometimes I’ve had to wait a long time for the answer. I’m still waiting for some answers.

    The person who wrote:
    “I think that the spirit that I felt witness to me about the Book of Mormon was not the Holy Ghost. I honestly feel like it was Satan, and God allowed that because I took the wrong approach to finding truth.“

    I’m not sure exactly what he’s saying or what his experience was in trying to find truth..

    I had always understood that the Holy Ghost witnesses of truth. Whenever I read the scriptures I go into the spiritual dimension and feel light and truth.

    You wrote:.
    “Frankly, I think you are probably correct. However, I suspect that most of us were initially converted by scratch. I will expound on this when I resume this series having to do with your observations and concerns.”

    If you are saying I was converted to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon by Scratch I would have to disagree. You must not be saying this. I’m sorry if I am misunderstanding you.
    I

  4. Bounce

    I am not making a personal judgment about your situation. Maybe you were converted through the Holy Ghost.

    I am simply saying that I think he may have a valid point for his situation and there may be many in a similar situation.

    Since I will not be continuing this post for a while, let me summarize why I believe this.

    In previous posts I have pointed out that God warned the church in 1829 that He would be delivering them over to Satan if they did not repent and reform when they were given their chance, which I believe took place in Nauvoo, when they were rejected as a church.

    Now then, if the church has been delivered over to Satan, then very possibly Satan uses the apostate church to his own advantage by confirming the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon when it is prayed about with a false set of beliefs associated with the prayer. Perhaps Satan is happy to witness that the Book of Mormon is true if it causes someone to erroneously assume that the fulness of the priesthood is currently on the earth or that it is a good thing to blindly follow the brethren, etc.

    The skeptic that sent me the email had indicated that in his particular situation, he had been told many things relating to the Book of Mormon and the church that were not true before he prayed for a witness. He was possibly praying not just about if the Book of Mormon was true, but also if the church was true and if so, if he could be saved by blindly following the brethren, etc.

    Now then, the chapter 14 of the Book of Ezekiel it teaches a very important principle which is that if you pray to the Lord or ask the Lord through his prophet something based on idolatrous beliefs or teachings, then the Lord will allow you to be given an idolatrous answer.

    1 THEN came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
    2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
    4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
    5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

    It seems to me that what this fellow is saying is that he was told lots of false information that was attached to what he was praying about. It could have been false information about how the BofM was translated and false information about how if the BofM is true then the LDS church has to be true, and how you must follow the brethren rather than learn to receive person revelation, etc. etc. etc.

    If someone prays about those false doctrines and gets a warm fuzzy feeling, could it actually be the Holy Ghost testifying of the truthfulness of what the person is praying about?

    I don’t think the Holy Spirit can lie.

    Hence, I think what the guy says is actually very true and profound and frankly, I think most people pray about the BofM with a lot of false baggage attached and that is why such a testimony crumbles once the true facts are learned.

    In your case it is very possible that you seriously read the BofM and did not have any false doctrines attached to your understanding of the BofM and what your were praying about.

    Hope that helps to clarify what I am saying.

    I know it is very offensive for someone to suggest that Satan would get involved in witnessing of the BofM and of getting people into the church, but after all, if the Saints have been delivered into his dominion, why wouldn’t he use the apostate church for his own purposes?

  5. Ryan says:

    Last night I watched one of my former stake presidents give a CES fireside.

    He gave a very logical discourse on why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth today.

    Al documented from the New Testament from the organization to the fruits to the doctrine.

    Then at the close he switched and said that many are leaving the church because of a few historical anomalies or supposed scientific data contrary to the Book of Mormon’s divine origin.

    That there are many questions in ones journey of faith but that the most important question needs to be asked sincerely, was Joseph Smith a prophet and is the Book of Mormon true. If so then the church is true and all other questions lose their importance.

    He then makes a hard line pivot and says that you would be ruined if you take what you know about Christ’s church and look for it elsewhere. There is no other church to satisfy the mind or the heart.

    The choice is a rational one: Either you stay in the church that bears his name were families can be forever and you can have priesthood power to bless your family or you don’t and turn your back on those blessings and your family.

    While this argument might get people who have had a confirmation that JS or the BoM are true to hang on a little longer, I don’t know what it’ll do for those who only seek with their intellect and not with their heart as well.

    While the argument has flaws, hopefully it’ll get those to hang on long enough until the first laborer’s return.

    You have approach each one independently it’s not a therefore then conclusion in my opinion.

    For me, I had a spiritual experience that I know came from God. This is the measuring stick I use when comparing other doctrine and their accompanying spirit. I try all spirits after exhausting the study on the topic.

    I’ve come to find that I’m quite rare in this approach unfortunately. It can be a lonely path to take, one that I am willing to make.

  6. Very interesting and timely to the discussion Ryan.

    The strange thing is that I agree with your old SP that ultimately, it is probably the best decision for many, possibly even most people, to stay in the church, I simply don’t agree with the arguments offered by your former SP.

  7. Ryan says:

    I agree too, that this is the place to be. Christ or his servants won’t come to another Bride.

    However, to take the approach that Nephi did in 3rd Nephi and to lay it all out there and let others know that we’re awaiting the return of the first laborers and have gone astray would do more damage than good to those that aren’t even seeking the mysteries.

    Those who have faith that this is the true and living church lead by prophets and apostles and that all is well in Zion would be wounded so deep by the deception that I believe it would cause a mass exodus.

    Not that their deception had even been malicious. I think that we’re so far from the time when the falsehoods were first originated that they’re just accepted as truth and taught as such because they had been handed down for so long to so many as truth.

    At least that’s how I look at it.

    I don’t hold it against anyone that taught me what I know and have come to realize as not accurate or 100% correct or truthful. They didn’t know any better than I did as the learner. And were doing the best they could with what light of the gospel they were given or had sought out.

    I was telling my father the other day, who doesn’t believe what I’m studying to be of God, that I will use my positions of influence in the Church to teach correct doctrines judiciously but also as a way to keep those that otherwise would have fallen away in by better understanding their doubts and, thank God for this blog, to help them doctrinally see where we’re at and why staying in the best thing for them.

    I say I will do this and teach that, when I mean invite and let the spirit do the real heavy lifting.

  8. However, to take the approach that Nephi did in 3rd Nephi and to lay it all out there and let others know that we’re awaiting the return of the first laborers and have gone astray would do more damage than good to those that aren’t even seeking the mysteries.

    I believe that is true.

    Furthermore, you would get exed for teaching such a disruptive doctrine from within the church. And that is why Denver Snuffer is walking down the road talking to himself right now. He tried to publicly lay it all out to the church as a lay member of the church.

    Neither the brethren or the church membership are ready to humble themselves and repent.

  9. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    Ryan,
    I don’t know how long you have been in the process of having your eyes opened, but trust me your opinions will continue to change as you learn more. I sounded a lot like you several months ago, but I have learned so much more and my opinion has changed. You underestimate the totality of the falsehoods that the Church has perpetuated. The worst of which is polluting the nature of God. I fear that when you stand before him with your preconceived doctrinal understanding that he is just an exalted man you will be shocked. When you offer the Savior Masonic handshakes and utter your new name you may expect to hear him say depart for you knew me not. The Church used to make it very clear they worshipped a different Jesus than the rest of Christianity. And the fact is they do. The God described in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Lectures on Faith as well as the JST is not an Exalted man who existed on a planet with other humans who became Gods as well. If you worship a Jesus who was begotten by an exalted man you are not worshipping the real Jesus. If you believe Jesus is your spirit brother, instead of recognizing he is God the Father manifested in the flesh then you stand in danger of looking to the Church for your salvation instead of Christ. So believe me there is great danger remaining in the Church and staying true to false Covenants. Covenants that were never mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon. If there is anything the Book of Mormon should clear up, it should be the nature of the God head. However it does not. It totally supports the Bibles description of the Trinity. The Book of Mormon makes no mention of Exaltation or Becoming a God, nor does it describe a graded here after. The things that upset people are not small Doctrinal inconsistencies, they are huge issues that donot have any type of reasonable explanation. Look at the Book of Abraham. In the Facsimile’s Joseph got nothing correct on these. They have nothing to do with Abraham. Look at Facsimile 2, item 7. Joseph identified this as God on his throne receiving the Holy signs of the Priesthood. What do you think modern egyptologists have identified thus figure as? Even Hugh Nibley admitted who it was. It is the Pagan God Min on his throne with an erection. So how could Joseph use the same method to translate the Papyri as he did the plates and get it totally wrong? They were both written in Egyptian. It puts the authenticity of the Book of Mormon in serious question.

  10. there is great danger remaining in the Church and staying true to false Covenants. Covenants that were never mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon.

    I can’t disagree with that statement. I think that for some people, there is some truth in it.

    That is why I have said in my previous comments, that there is not one right answer for everyone once they begin to get their eyes opened.

    If someone is still ungrounded enough that they would go into a spiritual “free fall” if they go it alone, I think a good argument can be made for continued participation.

    On the other hand, as you have pointed out, Thirsting, if a person’s participation in the apostate church means that they have to believe the falsehood and participate in the idolatry, then membership will ultimately be a cursing and a damnation.

    These are serious and sobering issues.

    Staying in the church can be dangerous to a person’s spiritual health.

    Leaving it also can also be dangerous to a persons spiritual well being.

    Don’t forget the human element. There are some salt of the earth people in the church to rub shoulders with. The scriptures admonish us to meet often with others of faith

    Many people are so ungrounded in true religion that they need a support system and will falter without one.

    I see a pattern with a lot of people that begin to wake up and then become critical. They gain just enough knowledge to be dangerous to them themselves and others. They often leave the church out of principle and anger and then their focus of study turns towards criticism, doubt and cynicism and they become obsessed looking for everything that challenges the simple and basic gospel of Jesus Christ in an effort to justify themselves.

    Ultimately they lose their faith and become darkened in their mind.

    I am not saying that you are in that position yet, but some of your comments make me feel like you are teetering on the edge of giving up hope.

    But here is what I love about your comments Thirsting:

    ” The worst of which is polluting the nature of God”
    ” I fear that when you stand before him”
    ” When you offer the Savior Masonic handshakes”
    ” The God described in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Lectures on Faith as well as the JST is not an Exalted man”

    I like each of those comments because they presuppose that there is a Christian God. In other words, you still believe in God and you have not given up altogether on Christianity and the Biblical God and the Biblical gospel.

    You bring up some interesting points. I just hope that you keep searching through an eye of faith and don’t begin searching with an eye of doubt.

    It will be interesting to see how Ryan evolves in his learning and where he finds his faith in one year.

    It will also be interesting to see how you continue to evolve and where you find yourself in one year.

    As someone who has been cutting my teeth on these issues for the better part of 30 years I can tell you that it can be a real challenge to keep your faith if one is not diligent in exercising ones faith.

    It is my hope and prayer that both of you are strong in the faith and possibly even striking hands with each other in Zion in one year.

    Time will tell. I hope you will continue to have a desire to believe and will not allow cynicism to fill you with darkness.

    The restored gospel is true regardless of what condition the apostate church is in.

    Praise God.

  11. Ryan says:

    Yes Thirsting my views have changed over time. I found this blog in Oct or Nov of 2011. So for the better part of 2 years I’ve been reading, studying and searching.

    I’ve have my heart hardened during that time. It was then that I realized that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of serving and loving as well as one of great spiritual power, a power I hope to attain to some day.

    My personal ministry in the church, at least for now is to love for and care for my fellow man. While there are things that I don’t agree with within the church I am at peace with my decision to, as Watcher put it, rub shoulders with others.

    It wasn’t until I softened my heart and looked at the good that the church had to offer and the fellowship there that I found peace.

    I was so critical of the doctrine that I missed the human component. The need to help, love and serve and to be helped, loved and served.

    As Watcher mentioned this is a personal choice. For me and my family this is what works for us. A year from now, I can’t say.

    Thank you for your comments. I wish you well. Keep Thirsting.

  12. JennyP1969 says:

    Cynicism seems to be a withering of faith, hope, and especially charity. It’s so negative. There is only the positive in light.

    I found myself constantly battling a dark, cynical and negative attitude toward the church when I began waking up. I guess it’s only natural. But I’d rather put off the natural and seek something higher. I’d rather take the great good still within the church and grow from my own efforts to seek God as God, and not as the Ultimate Mormon of Eternity.

    Cynicism makes forgiveness very difficult. Being unforgiving is stunting. I’d rather grow and expand. It’s so, so easy to live the gospel when you don’t have to forgive the church you have loved and belonged to most of your life. But who can say they are a true disciple if they can’t forgive the hardest to forgive? How can we profess to be Christians when Christ forgave and forgives the errors of this church and still works with all who are trying to follow Him as best they can?

    Awakening brings great insight and knowledge. But it also requires much greater levels of faith, hope, charity and the spirit of forgiveness. It asks much groaning under the weight of negativity and bitter cynicism without giving into them. The challenges of greater discipleship are not to be taken lightly nor simplistically. Now, more than ever, we need to look within our own souls for purification rather than focusing on pollutions out there.

    God will take care of His frail church.

    And praise be to Him for taking care of us….if we stay in His Light, Love, and Optimism.

    We belong to an imperfect religion run by imperfect people. But the gospel is pure, true, and promising. It’s perfect. God is perfect. Every needful thing is being found. Let’s live it with a perfect brightness of hope and let God bring His church into greater light as He sees fit. He knows what He’s doing. Right? So…..we can keep the baby church while throwing out some tainted and bitter bath water.

    A year from now let it be said we are less polluted ourselves and are filled with greater light, faith, hope and charity…..that we are more like our Redeemer — a Being of Light and Love.

  13. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    Watcher,
    I feel you have misread me. Any so called cynicism that you perceive in my comments is directed at the restoration. My relationship with Jesus Christ is stronger than it has ever been. My understanding of his love, nature, and the fullness of his Grace has brought me to a wonderful place in my life. As Mormon’s we like to issue the Book of Mormon challenge. I took the Protestant challenge which is called the Romans challenge. I read Romans with an open mind looking for truth about Jesus and his Grace. I prayed and pondered. I won’t spoil it for anyone, but his Grace is far greater than what we as Mormons truly realize. I realized how foolish it would be for me to think that I could ever add anything to the gift he gave me. As a result I have actually increased the “works” that I do. Not because they are required to qualify for his Grace, but because I love him. I have started doing things he would do, like serving other people including my family instead of spending all my time at Church and doing temple work for the dead. I think the people that usually fall away totally from religion all together are individuals who grew up in the LDS Church. I can understand that because they have spent their whole life hearing how all of Christianity is in a total state of apostasy and how many plain and precious truths have been lost from the corrupted Bible. So when they discover that the LDS Church isn’t what it claims to be they are destroyed. They figure well if the LDS Church is wrong then nothing can be right. Although I have been actively involved in the LDS Church for over 14 years, I didn’t grow up in it. I look forward to seeing your next series based on my emails. I will read it with an open mind. I will give it an honest chance. If after reading it I still feel the same way I do, I will wish you luck and be on my way. I have learned in my life that opinions change with knowledge. So I would never say that my opinion is firm and will never change. I have had to many experiences where increased knowledge and understanding has changed my view. I hope this is the case with what you present, but I must admit you have a mountain to climb my friend :). Regardless of whatever conclusion I come to, I will always feel this blog has its purpose. You have spent a large part of your life working on it and I applaud that. I found this blog as a totally believing rank and file member. The question that prompted my research was a question a coworker had about Joseph Smith and Polyandry. I knew for sure it couldn’t be true. The deeper I dug into it the more horrific it became. I quickly learned that not only was it true, but the Church was not a reliable source for true History. That was how my Journey began. I ended up on your Blog because it was the only one I could find that could still support Joseph and the Book of Mormon, yet come to terms with the awful things he did at the end of his life. So regardless of what final conclusion I come to, this blog was a big help to me, and I thank you for that.

  14. Thirsting

    Yes, I think I have misread some of what you have said. Although the Internet provides an amazing platform for meeting lots of people quickly and being able to participate in ongoing discussions in the blink of an eye, it has its shortcomings. One of them is context. One has the tendency to make assumptions. I am guilty of that.

    I really appreciate you sharing your testimony of the Grace of God and of the experience you have had reading Romans. I love Romans and I admit that the current state of Mormonism does not provide a very accurate reflection of what is contained in Romans.

    I sincerely hope every single person that reads this blog will accept your invitation to re-read Romans. I personally believe that anything presented in the Restoration that contradicts the narrative in Romans is questionable. Frankly, I don’t see a conflict, however that is up to each person to determine for themselves.

    I have always found it curious that Joseph brought forth the BofM and other scripture but continued to teach and preach primarily out of the Bible. The supporting documentation for Lectures on Faith is 99% from the Bible and Lectures was created long after the BofM was brought forth. I love the Bible and I view all of the scripture that Joseph brought forth through the lens that the Bible provides.

    I appreciate you willingness to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. Regardless of your final verdict, I will consider you to be my Brother in Christ. I love and accept the gospel in Romans and I appreciate how you have enriched my experience in searching and thinking and pondering.

    I also appreciate the previous remarks of Jenny and Ryan. We live in amazing times when many people are having a crisis of faith and yet, during these birthing pangs, many people are experiencing an awakening, even though the spiritual awakening is not pain free.

    I openly admit that the gift of charity is my greatest weakness. I wish I could forgive the “Church” and the “leaders of the church” past and present with the childlike forgiveness that Jenny and Ryan seem to be manifesting. I struggle in that area.

    I want to thank all of you for your comments regarding an extremely difficult and sobering topic.

    May the Grace of God guide all of us.

  15. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    These verses in Romans really hit me hard.
    Romans Chapter 1:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

  16. I love those passages. They support my contention that the King Follett Discourse is based on the false doctrine that God the Father was once a human being and was not eternal, from all eternity to all eternity. They point out how foolish it is to make God in the image of corruptible man which is what we do as Latter day Saints when we teach that God was once a human being.

    Joseph states the following in that sermon:

    “We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea”

    By refuting that idea, Joseph is challenging some of the scriptures that he was instrumental in bringing forth such as Mosiah 3:5 and Moroni 8:18 and D&C 39:1

    It creates no indigestion for me because I understand the atonement statute and the words of Isaiah which explain how God covers the eyes of his seers in the last days. ( https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/four-steps-in-losing-your-innocence-part-6-3/ )

    I get a kick out of this video where a Christian entraps an LDS apologist into trying to defend the doctrine contained in the King Follett Discourse

    I feel so sorry for both of those people.

    I feel sorry for the LDS apologist because he feels like he has to defend a false doctrine because he is into “prophet worship” and his whole world would come tumbling down if he entertained the thought that Joseph taught something that was wrong. He puts the words of JS over the God’s words in the scriptures. To his credit, he claims, as he waffles back and forth, that God is from all eternity, but he feels like he needs to wrest the words of the sermon to make it conform to scripture.

    I feel sorry for the antagonist because he has rejected the restored gospel based on false doctrines that eventually crept into the church over a decade after the Book of Mormon was brought forth. He would probably be shocked to find out that his beliefs based on Biblical Christianity are totally in sync with the original doctrine of the restoration movement.

    God please send thy servants soon to clean up this mess.

  17. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    Here is a song that touched me during the darkest days of my crisis of faith. I was on the lawnmower when it came on. It spoke to my spirit and I began weeping. My kids still get cracked up because every time it comes on the radio I tear up. I just smile at them because they could never understand my pain, and hopefully my experience will spare them from having to go through this as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsjZ94K7UQs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  18. Ryan says:

    Oh Jenny.

    This made me laugh out loud.

    “the Ultimate Mormon of Eternity”

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