False Christs Commission False Prophets

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

The above passage in Matthew which also shows up in Mark, has always perplexed me because it seems to me that the chronology of events is backwards.

It never made sense to me that “false Christs” would show up publicly declaring themselves to be the Christ before “false Prophets” would be going forth to prepare the way before the false Christs.

The prophet John the Baptist came first, to prepare the way before Christ in the Old World. The prophet Nephi did a great work to prepare the people before Christ came to the New World.

That is the pattern that I would think would be copied by old Scratch.

The very beginning of the first verse speaks of false prophets directing people to a secret place where Christ is.

The next passage in Matthew seems to indicate that the false prophets will have an agenda of wanting to lead the people to a place where they will meet the Christ, which is consistent with the original pattern of prophets preparing the way before the coming of Christ.

“Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.”

This passage correctly postulates that the false prophets will be leading people on a quest to find Christ. It is consistent with the prophet first, Christ second, scenario as documented in history. It is the first clue that perhaps the phrase “false Christs and False prophets” means something different than the chronological order in which they appear in public which assertion can be made with a surface interpretation. (At least I have made that interpretation. For all I know, I am the only one that has assumed that!)

Interestingly, the topic of “secret chambers” comes up. Perhaps even referring to the “secret bridal chambers”. A topic I have recently been pondering and speculating about.

After assuring us that the true Christ will not be in the desert or the secret chambers where the false prophets want to lead the people, the Savior declares that the light shines forth at a time when the elect have ALREADY been gathered together and have ALREADY been prepared to meet him.

“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

The above statement is completely consistent with Modern Revelation and Lectures on Faith. It is consistent with the true doctrinal scenario of the first laborers of the last kingdom returning to the vineyard to reclaim the land of Zion and to gather, consecrate, and prepare the elect of God to meet the Savior when he comes in secret for the third time, in the third watch. (See LonF, D&C 29, 65, 84, 88 and the parable of the Redemption of Zion in 101)

Yet the previous passage warns us that false prophets will want to lead people somewhere else, in an unsuccessful attempt to meet the true Savior. The scenario being promoted by the false prophet will not conform to the scriptures of the LDS restoration.

One commenter on this blog pointed out that Brigham Young led a people to the “desert” and built temples with special “chambers” (holy of holies)  in them where the Saints are led to believe the Savior appears to “prophets” and others that receive special endowments.

That is an intriguing observation and perhaps it is a shadow fulfillment. I don’t think it is a literal fulfillment since Brigham Young did not show forth “great signs and wonders”.

His ministry was rather unremarkable with regard to miracles and besides, he was quite clear about the fact that he had not been visited by Christ.

Several months ago another commenter on this blog made a comment that caused a light bulb to turn on in my head and it has completely changed the way I interpret the first passages quoted in this post.

The implication of the person’s comment, from my perspective, was that first, an otherworldly spiritual being would appear privately to a person.

The spiritual being would claim to be Christ and would commission that person with a message to give the people.

Hence, the “false Christ” from the spiritual realm appears first, in private, to an individual, followed by the deceived person declaring publicly that they have an important message from God.

That is the process by which the person becomes a “false prophet”. It stems from the commission they have literally been given by the false Christ.

That scenario makes perfect sense to me.

I believe that is what the first passage is referring to and that is why it begins speaking of false Christs and then speaks of the false prophets in that order.

This means that the false prophet is not lying about a visitation.

Indeed, they really did have a visitation or multiple visitations from a false Christ.

It would follow that other visitations from other lying spirits disguised as angels of light would also manifest themselves to the false prophet and perhaps to some of his followers.

The sobering declaration that false prophets “shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” is one that we need to remember. The false prophet will be making a declaration, preparing people for something that is about to happen and something pretty amazing will probably indeed happen.

Since the LDS people have been so starved for truly miraculous and prophetic events, many will probably flock to the new movement once the miraculous event takes place.

When someone comes among the LDS people, that is unfamiliar with some of the very basics having to do with the history of the church, the doctrine of the priesthood and the doctrine of the gathering, and they are teaching false doctrine, yet they are claiming that they have a message from the Lord, we need to beware… Particularly if their message contradicts the true pattern that has been given in the scriptures.

Another thing that has dawned on me recently is that when a charismatic person is visited by a false Christ and then begins giving their message, others become seduced by the same false spirit. Some may be visited by the same false Christ. Others are simply influenced by the seducing spirit.

Once seduced by the same spirit, they begin bearing a false witness to others that the false prophet is a true prophet.

When they do this, they are not intentionally telling a lie. They honestly feel like they have received promptings from the Holy Ghost and therefore, they feel like they are inspired to testify that the message of the false prophet is true, even though they don’t even understand what the message is ultimately going to be.

The apparently innocent, yet incorrect testimony that they bear, actually makes them a false prophet as well. That is very possibly why the passage refers to false prophets (plural) yet possibly having to do with the same spiritual movement.

In other words, Christ’s prophecy may not have been referring to lots of individual false prophets with differing messages. It could have been referring to a specific movement with lots of people bearing a false testimony about a false message from God.

The first false prophet begins accumulating passionate followers that begin bearing their testimonies that the message from the primary false prophet is true.

Everyone that begins bearing their testimony that a false prophet is a true prophet, becomes a false prophet also, along with the primary false prophet.

One of the things that has occurred to me is that the primary false prophet and the secondary false prophets are not necessarily people with evil intent, who are intentionally telling lies and desiring to lead people down the wrong path. These could be very good but naive people who desire to do good, but are simply deceived.

Just a few thoughts I have been pondering.

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25 Responses to False Christs Commission False Prophets

  1. Ryan says:

    Clearly I haven’t been paying that close attention to patterns and sequences in the scriptures.

    Thank you for a new filter in which to view the scriptures.

    That is interesting what the commenter had said about BY and the desert and chambers. I’ve always thought of that as a future event, which it still might be.

    My point is that I never would have made the association with BY or the LDS church.

    I have to admit that there are a lot of LDS interpretations that I have when reading the scriptures.

    Some of them are so unconscious that I don’t even know that they’re there.

    I’ve read hundreds of church publications and other books from LDS authors over the years that all seem to reinforce the same sanitized history. Repetition is the mother of all learning.

    I just need to be open to the Spirit to teach me and either confirm what I took on faith or help to see the error.

    As usual, thank you for the insight.

  2. JennyP1969 says:

    Good food for thought in this post. I agree.

    I also add another perspective on false Christs. I believe when a prophet, or any preacher, teacher, or blogger, etc. teaches incorrect information about who and what Jesus Christ is, they create a false Christ. There are countless false Christs, perhaps even all, for the Lord has stated that the whole earth is covered in darkness and all churches are corrupt. How much of what we teach about the Savior is false? I search every day for the truth of all things, but especially about Him.

    You study, Watcher. You pull details of truth from plain sight, piece together puzzles, find corner and cap stones, connect many dots of truth, and based on all those many, many findings, you prophecy of watches and spokespersons and scapegoats and Zion. Are you a prophet? Are you false? Do you testify of a false Christ? How about Denver Snuffer? Is he? Does he?

    Matthew 24 says false prophets will testify of false Christs and show forth signs, wonders and miracles so great they will deceive the very elect. I’ve seen no signs and such from either of you. Watcher, you remain unknown, so no one can follow you into the desert or secret chamber. Denver Snuffer continually points people away from himself and toward Christ…..but if the Christ he points toward is false, I gather he is a false prophet. Irregardless, I see no signs or wonders from him and know of no secret chamber he brings anyone to.

    But I admit I worry about the secret/sacred temple. Only a very few — even the so-called very elect — are allowed inside the secret chamber temple where we are to pass through a veil into the presence of God. And no one is allowed to tell anyone about it, not even the less-elect members who haven’t gone there yet. We have latter-day prophets who do not teach meat and bid us go to secret places to find God.

    “Oh say, what. is. truth?”

    For me, a prophet tells the truth, never hiding it, distorting it, or sanitizing it. A prophet teaches from the scripture. A prophet seeks not his or her own. A prophet points all people to the Christ found in the scriptures. And because he or she is human and fallible, they continually seek to know “the only True God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” And a prophet is God’s humble servant.

    Later on in Matthew 24 beginning in verse 45, the Savior asks who then is a faithful servant that the Lord has made ruler over his household, “to give them MEAT in due season?”

    I have received no meat from any servants in classes at church, talks at the local or general levels, nor from books written by them.

    My meat has come from a very few, and none more than One Who Is Watching……

    ……46 Blessed is that servant whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    Blesséd indeed……

  3. Interestiong points.

    You really know how to deliver a backhand while making the recipient feel like they have just been kissed! LOL

    It is sobering indeed to realize that mortal man is fallible and that our knowledge of God, regardless of how much we read and study God’s word, will be imperfect until the perfect day when we are filled with the spirit and see Him.

    I think it is impossible for any mortal man to pontificate very much in an attempt to interpret scriptures without promoting an incorrect concept.

    My the Lord have mercy on us all during these dark times when we are groping at the wall.

    All I need to do is go back and re-read past posts and I find things I have said that I no longer agree with. For this reason I have been tempted several times to simply shut the blog down and not take the chance of misleading people. I still may do it.

    While we all should strive to be filled with the spirit of prophecy, and should be prophets (with a small “p”) in the sense of being inspired in our study by the Holy Ghost, I still think there is a significant difference between wingnuts like me that are simply attempting to drive people back into the scriptures with thought provoking and controversial interpretations, and openly admitting that my opinions are heretical and should not be accepted at face value, vs. those that declare that they are messengers of God with an important message from God.

    you prophecy of watches and spokespersons and scapegoats and Zion”

    I don’t know that I agree with that statement. I have quoted lots of passages of scripture that are prophecies from true prophets and I have declared that I believe them. I am not sure that is the same thing as me prophesying.

    I have quoted the unconditional promises and prophesies in modern revelations and explained why I believe they will still come true, since Gods word does not return to Him void, but is that prophecying? I don’t know that it is.

    I have produced some very unusual interpretations of scripture and I believe I have uncovered some useful information about the doctrine of the three watches and the atonement statute, however, I am basically providing my belief for people to consider during their searching. I don’t think I have been in the act of prophecying.

    I am often hoping or saying that I believe the servants are going to return soon, but that is speculating, not prophesying.

    I have never said or implied a “thus sayeth the Lord” message from God through me.

    I get passionate about my beliefs and I often find myself trying to persuade those that engage me and ask me to document why I believe a certain way.

    In the past, you have challenged some of my posts about composite beings and the role of women,etc.. While I often get passionate and try to substantiate why I believe the way I do, at the end of the day, I don’t want to have the responsibility of what you believe. That is your business, not mine. That is a burdon I don’t want or need.

    I have a dear brother in Denver that has recently asked me to explain better why I believe section 97 was actually a commandment to build the Nauvoo temple because it doesn’t make any sense to him. I have made a few attempts to try and show him what I am seeing, but at the end of the day, it is his responsibility to determine what the spirit is revealing to him. It is really none of my business and it frankly doesn’t matter since it really has little to do with our salvation.

    If someone is claiming to have a specific message from God and claiming to be an appointed messenger from God, by all means, people should pay attention and listen to them and determine if they are really a true messenger. That does not describe me.

    If it turns out that they are a false prophet, those that follow them have probably entered into a greater level of deception in my opinion.

    The irony of my posts is that the major premise and overriding theme that I have consistently presented for five years is that the whole world is currently decieved, in darkness, and has been delievered over to Satan until the servants come back.

    That means, for those that have not yet figured it out, that I believe I am also in darkness and have been delivered over to Satan.

    That is why I am always hoping for the return of the servants. I am in spiritual and every other type of bondage and I need to have a divine intervention.

    That is why I am not telling people to follow me. That is why I am not explaining to people what they need to do to get out of bondage or how to take matters into their own hands and attempt to establish Zion, etc.

    Hence, I really don’t think I have been prophesying…

    🙂

  4. JennyP1969 says:

    Well, Watcher, once again I agree.

    Evidently I did not express my thought process clearly enough. This happens rather frequently as I become anxious about how long it takes me to write what I mean to the point that I leave key meanings or points out.

    You DO do all the things you said above — you pull hidden, as well as plain sight messages from the scriptures. You notice “un-be-freaking-lievable” (or something like that) things no one I know does. Way cool. But as you interpret and connect dots, you “see” ……..”many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” a prophet is a see-er, is he not? So in a way, I think you could be a prophet by this gift, and by your interpretations of the word of God. Yes, a small “p” and not with authority for anyone but yourself.

    However, there is absolutely no doubt that you are a “wise servant” according to Matthew 24: 45-46 or so. You teach serve meat. You dig deep into the scriptures and teach others how to do so. I don’t have a key word search program, and if I did I’d probably need tutors to successfully use it. Nevertheless, all scripture are Different to me now. I thought I hungered and thirsted before, but not like this. I pour…..POUR…..over them daily. I read something you have studied, and as I go through the scriptures, I inevitably end up off on other tributaries of thought and perspective, or even subjects.

    I did not intend anything I wrote to be a backhand. Not at all. I definitely feel you have the spirit of prophecy, as does Mrs. W. It’s a wonderful spiritual gift, and I hope you’ll both continue to magnify it and share your thoughts with us. My gift is to discern. I’ve used it throughout my studies here. I have discerned the truth of many things you’ve written, as well as several commenters here as they share thoughts and information. Everything you write is a catalyst for seeking further light and knowledge.

    So please, do not stop writing and teaching.

    As to composite Beings……….sigh. I’ve had two specific experiences where I felt I received clear messages that you are close, but not quite there on that doctrine. Both times it seemed Heavenly Father said in my soul that He once He found Heavenly Mother and saw Her great beauty, He couldn’t not bear to not see Her before Him throughout Eternity.

    However, because I have such an emotional reaction to the composite Sons of God doctrine, I cannot discern if these thoughts are from God, myself, or Old Scratch……as yet. Working on it.

    I used to live north of Denver. What part of it does your brother live?

    Hey……don’t stop.

  5. Those are very kind words and I thank you. I may have been overreacting a bit but I really am very concerned about knowing where the line is and being sure not to cross it, with regard to how and what I teach and whether I am setting myself up in the eyes of people as a “Prophet”. I have never intentionally wanted to do that.

    I have often wondered if I would have the intestinal fortitude to declare such a thing if I really was visited and really was commanded to say “thus sayeth the Lord”. How would any of us know if a visitor was from heaven or hell? Joseph claimed that the keys to knowing such things could not be given to the Saints until the Nauvoo Temple was completed.. where does that leave us with regard to discerning the source of heavenly visitors?!?!

    I preached in the grove, on the keys of the kingdom, charity, &c. The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed. The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires, as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth and hell; the Elders must know them all, to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition.” (Joseph Smith, History of The Church, 7 vols. [1976], 4:608; emphasis added)

    (BTW I have just visited another blog and posted a comment as to why I think there is a difference between a “vision” and a “visitation”. I think that by debating doctrinal issues there is a learning process that we go through http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/can-a-man-see-god-1-timothy-616-in-light-of-ancient-and-modern-revelation/#comment-10531 )

    I really don’t want to teach false doctrine and yet, as you intimated, everyone does that attempts to teach from the scriptures very much, at least to some extent if they are human. Where does that leave us? Should we all remain silent until the servants return or do we attempt to gain understanding and share our beliefs and speculations with each other?

    So far I have felt impressed to share. I must say that I have learned much from those that comment on my blog and other blogs. I also learn much when I have to dig deep into history and doctrine to defend a position I have taken. Sometimes I eat a little crow in the process.

    “I’ve had two specific experiences where I felt I received clear messages that you are close, but not quite there on that doctrine”

    I suspect there are LOTS of topics that I have covered that fall into that category of “close, but no banana”, and some that I may not even be close at all. LOL 😉

  6. Fusion says:

    Watcher,

    Don’t you dare close down this blog or the other one.

    It has filled, as best as possible in these dark times, an incredibly huge hunger that created a massive longing in my heart after I had my ‘Awakening’ from the LDS sham, wherein the leaders KNOW they are not who they & their ridiculous suck-up wanna-be’s publicly profess to be.

    This blog & the other one has given me something I only (almost) compare with the first time 15 years ago when I prayed & read (yes, in that order, but that is another story) about my new discovery: the Book of Mormon. The chills, the joy, the breaking down of my pride and the tears that freely flowed at the magnificent love the Lord had for my wretched and pathetic soul, to give me a treasure like the Book of Mormon. These blogs have opened up the other scriptures as well as the Book of Mormon, in such a way, that I sometimes am breathless.

    I do NOT take you to be a prophet nor a seer, but a passionate heretic that only a few such as I could identify with- in my experience your blog is not for everyone, BUT it is for some!!!!

    My heart would break immensely if that day ever came. I have felt you and Mrs. Watcher as friends, even 15,337 kilometres away…

    And it is all your blogs’ fault

    Fusion

  7. Fusion says:

    Oh, to totally change veins here- did I mention I love birthdays?!

    If we thought that name of the Church changed only during Joseph’s time, from and including ‘Church of God’, ‘Church of Christ’, to TAKING OUT the name of Jesus in ‘Church of Latter Day Saints’, as you have so articulately put forth Watcher, then how about ADDING to the name of the Church…

    Happy Birthday to:

    http://barerecord.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/219-happy-birthday-to-corporation-of.html#comment-form

    Check it out…

    Fusion

  8. Ryan says:

    Jenny,

    There are a few free word searching tools you can use.

    scriptures.lds.org has one. Iny opinion it’s not the best.

    Also scriptures.byu.edu has one that has advance capabilities. It will let you search not only the scriptures for phrases and key words but all past conference talks, the Journal of Discourses and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

    You can also search by speaker.

    If you have a smart phone both are apps. Gospel Library and Scripture Citation Index.

    Hope that helps.

  9. Ryan

    I didn’t even know about the scriptures.byu.edu site. That looks really interesting. Shame on you for holding out on us.

    But thanks for telling us about it! 🙂

  10. David says:

    Wow! What a beautiful exchange of two honorable Beings in Gods glorious kingdom!!! Very interesting to me as of the timing of your comments as I have been searching the scriptures and noting the many many instances where prophets come forth and are not specifically identified. For me, Ether is so so interesting because their are numerous references of many prophets who prophesied during the Jaredites corrupted existence and then we get toward the end of the saga and Ether, a Prophet comes out of obscurity to reveal the story with instruction from God. We have mention of false apostles in Corinthians as well as false prophets and false teachers in Peter as well as other places to give us warning to beware of any False Doctrine! This is exactly where corruption starts! In Discerning true doctrine from false doctrine. This is the crux of why we are where we are in relation to darkness. Jenny, I must thank you for explaining your position of Being a Discerner of Truth! You are correct on your observations and discerning of Watcher, as he has presented many truths that are and have been hidden in the Word of God, as many truths are woven mystically purposefully for a wise purpose and by revealing these truths to the world in this forum Watcher is certainly a prophet. Watcher is not and has not presented any of his extensive and exhaustive work in the manner of placing himself as such, yet, from a fellow Discerner I too feel as you do Jenny, I feeling and describing Watcher as such. Watcher, your humility in your service is admirable as you are making it Christ All (crystal) clear that your work could have flaws and you have acknowledged and shown that as those flaws are discerned by you or others you are quick to make the necessary corrections. That is paramount! As I have been strolling around on different blogs to find “meat” or deep doctrinal truths, I have noticed that when one is faced with facts that build truth one only has to make the simple observation of whether the presenter is charitable in his presentation. Watcher cracks me up with his honesty! This guy is not in fear of bringing to light his discernment and his unique abilities with his searching arsenal and openly admits to having eaten crow a few times! Ha ha! Jenny, in comparing Watcher to a Denver Snuffer, from the surface they are similar in that they are certain of the churchs apostate position. The difference between the two from my position is that Watchers speculating is connected to extensive documentation that distinguishes his position of trusting on the additional evidence to create a composite truth. Denver has written a number of books (though, I have not read one) that provide much truth overall but fall short on critical doctrinal truths! And here is the litmus test, Denver claims that he is willing to have others scrutinize his work and point out possible flaws and obvious flaws in his research, yet Denver has not responded to the criticisms of his work as he should! Period! Denver’s claims are (P)rophetic as he clearly tells his audience that they can and should seek a witness and to expect it! From my position this is a red flag! I find as I interpret the scriptures and discern how to receive Angles to receive further instruction that it is quite possible to do so, but my understanding of where we are and why there is a veil of darkness presently retreating from our presence is that there are clear instructions of what we can and should expect from seeking Angles and with all of the warnings of seeking a visitation from Jesus Christ! And this is paramount! Hence the essence of Watchers piece! I have stated previously that I believe Denver is a very good well meaning individual! But I believe that anyone who is seeking pure truth and using proper discernment, having the Holy Spirit of Truth as a guide, should beware of the false information that is craftifully mixed in in Denver’s work! If Denver does not have an Agenda then he has a responsibility to his audience to make the corrections immediately to his work as he is authoring books that are reaching out to an audience that is and has been nourishing on “milk” and has not developed the level of discernment necessary to distinguish deep doctrinal truths! An audience that was born into apostacy and is desperately thirsting for more truth, but because they are thirsting they are being set up to choke on the meat chunks that are being tossed about! Meat does not satisfy thirst first, milk does! Apetite for meat comes secondly from the belly to receive fulfillment after one is sufficiently refreshed, fulfilled and finished with need for milk! The scriptures are crystal clear on this as this is the precursor to understanding how to discern doctrinal truth to discern false anythings! I love how Watcher instructs one of his milk drinking commenters to get a big life jacket on and swim in the shallow end of the pond! As the commenter assaulted Watcher on his presentation and was clearly needing the heimlich manuever before getting his best on! Ha ha! Reading the comments allows one to develop the character of the presenter! Very important from my position as I do not want to waste time on anyone who slips in one thread of falsity, lie, untruth or what ever you want to label them! See the problem with an author who injects a simple thread of a lie in to the construct of a concept that also includes truth is not “Authentic!” keep in mind the litmus test! Does the author self correct or correct himself upon discovery of his false assumption? When you read any of the apologist bullshit( excuse me, but I can think of nor find any other word for the truth!) you see a Zeesrom before his conversion! They have not responded to the facts and truth with acceptable intelligent answers! They build BACK WORDS! They are on a sandy foundation to begin with as they are on an apostate ship with the rest of us, the difference is that they are defending the ship in oblivion or knowingly spewing lies because they are receiving substinence or subsistenence from the Babylonian church? In any case, for me it is Un-freak-ing-ly-Un-believe-Able!!! I love them all! I do! The apologists are throwing down the walls for us!!! With 150+ apologists spewing bullshit at the ratio they are is exactly what is needed in these times!!! Kerry Shirts is like Detroit! He is the canary in the coal mine! This guy received a Fulness of the bullshit and it tipped him over! I don’t know him, I’m certain he is a good good man, but the interesting thing to witness with his coming out is that he is making a claim of “Greater Bullshit” by revealing that intelligence is greater than FAITH!!! KaBoom!!! Next!!! Faith is Foundational to all truth! Period! That’s what all of these APALL LOW GISTS or APALL LOCUSTS (apologists) do!!! God bless ’em, seriously! It’s all happening for a reason and a season, all of their assumption and presumption and heresy is for each of us to discern truth to build upon the foundation of Faith! I love each of them as I love Joseph Smith because they are in need of a good dose of good ‘ol Joe! And they are about to get one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I say this because we must always re-member that we are all Gods precious children and to come to truth, pure truth is to Become one with Christ! To reside in the bosom of Christ! If love is not central to the theme then it is not of Christ! In my journey I have not felt one ounce of distain for Joseph Smith because he is in the hands of God! He possesses “The Keys to the Kingdom!” the “K-ease” of the way to the light! Joeseph is the Key to all understanding of Gods strange act and strange ways! Joseph Being the “Last and Greatest Prophet” is the Key to each of the principles of gaining Wisdom! Faith(Father) Hope(Holy Ghost) and Charity(Christ Jesus) has to be applied to receive the ingdom of God! Joseph Smith is all encompassing in his example of Being a Prophet of God! Especially possessing the Keys to the Kingdom, God has made it all or nothing to finding the narrow straight path to the gate! Joseph did the Fathers will in Being a true Prophet of God by speaking with God and Angles to bring forth the Book of Mormon, PoGP, JST of the Bible and the DOCTRINE and Covenants!!! And Joseph Atoned for his little flock! He took upon himself the hearts desires of the flock in Doing what he did! A few saw the plates and a few saw Jesus Christ sitting next to God on His throne by witness of the Holy Ghost! Three distinct entities with one cause, Thr-ee in One or Throne of Eloheim! Being All for One or Alone with Christ in His bosom is to Be with Christ(all of us) and Jesus Christ residing in the bosom of the Father Eloah with the mind of God, the Holy Ghost, seven Spirits which are Before this Throne (Rev 1:4). Each of the seven Spirits that comprise the Holy Ghost are distinguished throughout the standard works, Holy Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit of Promise, &c, there were seven lamps of fire burning Before the Throne, which are the seven Spirits of God (Rev 4:5). Which are female in gender! Which blows my mind to the incredible construct of the GodHead! Two composite male(male/female) Beings with a muti-demensional mind that is female! I was influenced more by two grandmothers, mother and two sisters in righteousness then my father and brother, also a wife and two daughters Godbless!!! The foundation of Faith starts and ends in the Throne of Eloheim, once established by verification and validation of, by and through the Holy Spirit(s) one can then proceed to build upon that foundation of Rock by the Word of God! Upon that foundation one can learn and discern each of the principle doctrines or columns of truth that “Uphold the Mantle” placed above the columns, then one gets each principle of knowledge which “Understands” the Mantle or All Truth to then receive the Wisdom or crowning glory which is represented by a dome signifying (a sign) or Dominion, which is “Wis(e) Dom(e),” way, manner, fashion coupled with an all encompassing structure representing Wis Dom, accumulated learning, knowledge,
    In-sight, good sense and judgement. DOM = Deo Optimo Maximo; To God, the Best and Greatest! dom is domestic, dominant, dominion and dignity: office, realm: jurisdiction, state or fact of Being and those having a specified interest or character. Wisdom, Kingdom and Freedom are the we are co-man-did to seek and obtain. I associate structure or constructs to mesh with the House of God, Temple of God and temple of flesh. If one was to spend all ones energy in the building of ones foundation(the Footing) then one will acquire enormous FAITH!!! F-act or act of faith before “holy posts” of true principles or doctrine is Hope, a true desire to obtain truths, Charity is the Pure Light of Christ, the capstone or wisdome, the All encompassing, a must as Charity, Christ-On or Christian love, benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity! CHarIty like CHrIst, has CHI in it or the energy of life! Charty is representative of the number 13! Christ and the Apostles or Disciples equals 13, Corinthians 13:13 is it!!! Char-I-Ty, At-One-Ment, Re-Pent-Ance, Co-Ven-Ants and WATCH-FULL-NESS!!! Or to “Keep vigil and observe-All or as much as is possible-degree and goodness” Wide-A-Wake! Joseph Smith has in his possession the “Key to the Gate!” and Christ will Be at the Gate for those servants who have gathered with Joseph and Sidney along with other chosen servants to reign with the Master while things heat up a bit! Pro-fess-ion, Pro-test-ant, Pro-phe-ic; Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Jesus Christ. Hebrews 3:1, also Heb 5:14. We are to Be Protestant to the false doctrines being spewed presently at all LDS edifices. Nephi 1:2; And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh. 1 Nephi 22 lays it down! 2 Nephi 1:13-23 instructs us to Awake, Awake, Awake! From the Deep Sleep! Rise from the dust x 3, shake off the chains x 3, captive, captivity x 3, curse, cursing x 3, destroyed, destruction x 3, anyway, I find it very interesting that we and they are being admonished and commanded by a Prophet of God to Awake 3x in 3 different passages from 13 to 23!? Joseph smith declared for each of us to become prophets! We are commanded to covet to become a prophet! When I received a witness of the Spirit about Joeseph and his fellows return 20+ years ago I was astonished to hear shortly after that when brother Joseph returns, he will fall upon the necks of those who have awakened to greet him with tears of joy! He will admire and marvel at those who greet him because of their knowledge, understanding and wisdom in Gods, Word and Spirit!!! The Gospel of Jesus Christ!!! So . . .
    If one chooses to Be inspired by the Holy Word of God upon searching and seeking, knocking and asking, and thus chooses to utter by, or as if by devine inspiration, or chooses to utter devinely inspired revelations in which one has received through the Spirit then that person is Doing as admonished and commanded to do so. The receiver who reads or hears of these inspirations is admonished and commanded to invite the Spirit to verify and validate whether or not they are true or not. One should Be more than willing to hear and bear constructive charitable criticism and therefor self correct if one has erred by mis-take ( missing the mark, sin) to avoid inequality or iniquity, which is sin perpetuated further. Denver Snuffer and others like him ( not the Apalling Gisters as they are far to wise for themselves to know true humility and pure truth, theres where fire insurance wont be of any help because this Prophisied coming fire storm will not recognize such!) should do this very thing if he is as legit as he claims he is, and has no agenda as he claims he doesn’t. Because when suppositions are over laid by the Word of God and sound documentation that has been witnessed by another( 2 or 3), and are clearly shown to not align with Gods word, then the seeds of false doctrine are lying to take root in the fertile mind of the seeker of truth. If he were to do this very thing as commanded then he eliminates the blood that is presently on his garments. It’s chrystal, Christ All clEAR as to how we become as those prophets Prophisied by Gods chosen to Be men, and Be determined in ONE MIND and in ONE HEART, UNITED in ALL THINGS(the Power of the Word) that ye may not come into captivity. Or in our case, to rise up and shake off the chains and climb out of the captivity we are presently in! The many prophets and apostles that claim that they are over at LDSdom are not Prophets and Apostles called, chosen, annointed and ordained of God!!! They are simply misguided men that are unwilling to humble themselves before almighty God and plea for forgiveness! That is called Repentance! Common consent does not allow for them to take upon themselves something that God did not give them! They have everyone believing that they are the elect!?!? How is it that the weak, meek and simple understand the truth but these worldly educated business men in high places are unwilling to search in their scriptures and read the truth??? Tis why Joseph is here now! I like how Chuck Missler says that the elect will watch the events unfold from the mezzanie

  11. David says:

    Sorry for the long windedness! I like Fusion, and others have come to this forum because of the meat that
    Is presented! It has been beyond description! I think it was Fusion who said that his jaw dropped upon reading the Atonement/Scapegoat Doctrine! I have been on this sphere for a few years and never, no not once, ever have I heard of or read anything that comes close to Watchers revelation of this wonderful truth!!! Think about how profound it would be if it was delivered from the pulpit in general conference? Nothing has ever been delivered from the pulpit since 1844 that has had this significance! In my journey and in my searching I have not found any common consent leaders who have postulated such devine wisdom! People need to wake the $#@! Up! The Spirit has witnessed into me that this is a big big test! If one is unwilling to see this profound truth(A/SD) then how are they preparing themselves to receive further truth and light that is coming real soon from the sealed portions? This is how it works!!! I am not blowing sunshine or worshipping anyone here but Our Savior and the Spirit! An uneducated country boy is how it is done, by his love and relentless passion and pursuit of truth! Seriously! This is big time! I was reading Watchers piece this summer on the Atonement Statute and I immediately stood up hyperventilating, heart pounding and in such joy I wanted to climb upon a tower and shout it out!!! I had tears welling in my eyes as I was all amazed that by direction of the Spirit I decided to venture out on the net to see if I could find a nice juicy steak to feast upon! And wow!!! I was blown away! This scriptural finding of Watchers is part of the timing of things! When Watcher acknowledged that only a few followers of this forum have responded to it that says so so much about how dark it has been to us all! But now the cover of darkness is slipping off because of truth seekers, and their prayers! God is keeping His word! He cannot keep all hidden things hidden when believers are knocking and asking! He has promised to open and answer! This Atonememt Statute Doctrine is truly the first piece of many hidden goodies that directly pertain to our salvation! The Bible clearly defines the truthfulness of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith and Sidney Rigdon as the men represented by the sacrifice or Atonement and further testifies of the Book of Mormon Prophicies! I am certain that this is essential to understand and will be pointed out in the sealed portion to verify and validate its profound truth! I love all of the followers of this forum! I have truly been edified by the truth that I have witnessed on this forum! Thank you everyone for Being seekers of truth! Thank you Watcher for the time that you devotedly take or make to provide people like me such wonderful news! This blog and LDSAnarchy’s blog have transformed my life! I felt so alone with my views, especially since living here in Salt Lake City! Headquarters of LDS Inc. the Scattered Day Saints! I love it here and I love the people but I have witnessed the malnourished and dumbed down living in here in Mormylon! How is it that my 16 year old mind conceived the apostacy of this church back in ’75 by reading the Book of Mormon (though, i didn’t realize I was converted into apostacy) and as I have tried to discuss this fact with others through the years they thought I was nuts!!! I have one friend who received his witness of the apostacy from the Spirit! Goes to show how the many prophets who appeared long ago to warn the people and when they didn’t listen the prophets quietly disappear back into their cavities in the rocks! Helaman 13 is today! I always said we were in 3rd Nephi but we are right where Samuel appears out of nowhere and lays it down!!! This is the scripture that enlightened my mind years ago! Zephaniah 3 reads to me the same! I have been praying for these Servants to appear for over 20 years as I originally thought they would set this house in order, but this house will reject him and them! So now you can imagine the significance of Watchers discovery in my world! Beyond description scripture! Peace.

  12. Ryan says:

    Watcher,

    I thought everyone knew.

    *blush*

  13. JennyP1969 says:

    Ryan….THANK YOU SO MUCH for the info on the app for the BYU scripture word search called Citation Index.

    I spent 7 straight hours in Ezekial last night! So fun!!

    That guy has some powerful stuff going on for the last days. There’s a lot of stuff just waiting to be uncovered, connected, and worthy of multiple look-sees. Especially the two adulteresses…..

    So thanks for a truly wonderful gift!

    OWIW….I read your comment on Mormon Interpreter, as well as a good portion of other comments. As I’ve studied over the years, I’ve noticed different people interpret scripture differently. Over at Wheat and Tares there’s an argument going on about Snuffer’s interpretation of scripture. I exited that as I’m do not want to be distracted by that kind of thing. I’ve noticed that a fair number of people are experts on another person’s interpretation without even reading his words. They just “know.” you’re mentioned in there too. They’re so busy putting the man down or defending him that the message of the church being in a state of apostasy is lost. People seem to “know” all about that too without studying it at all.

    I think it behooves each of us to study the scriptures, and not the way our lesson manuals teach. Whether any blogger teaches truth or not, that’s on the reader to discern through prayer and real intent. It’s my duty, and mine alone to find truth and to see the face of God. Even though we are frail in our mortal condition, we have been promised that if we seek, we will find….if we knock, it shall be opened to our minds and hearts….and if we ask, we will receive.

    I assumed and presumed for a long, long time. When I earnestly studied I found perplexing things, twists, and other concerns. When I asked about them, the responses were not favorable, so I became very timid about asking teachers. Silly me…..

    You taught me to dig deeper on my own and find answers through the word of God. Your method works quite well. Yet……we must acknowledge our weakness and wait upon the Lord for confirmation. You mentioned changing your mind today from how you viewed scripture years ago in some instances. I think the Spirit leads us along, confirming we are studying well and on the right track, but later we are given more, so we correct or refine what we once thought we knew. I think sometimes some people think the Spirit is saying: you’re right and you’re all done. End of story. You can go to recess now. And while you’re out there, dig a pit for you’re neighbor who sees things differently……beat him up a little, tar and feather his ideas, stand for your truth and your righteousness because you have it all figured out from your Sunday School lessons and your old Seminary diploma in the attic. You’re a High Priest with a temple recommend, so you’re “in the know.”

    Maybe I’m all wrong, but I have felt a soul-deep awareness that I was in a spiritual coma until a few years ago. I was overdosed on the drug of pride that put me to sleep. I did so much of my life — callings, everything for the church! The church!! Because I thought if I was a steller Mormon I was living a disciple’s life. I lived for the church. I was a missionary for the church. I was an example of a good Mormon. And I’m now ashamed, but grateful to be aware, that the Savior was secondary the whole time.

    I did not have eyes to see back then because I slumbered in a cozy Mormon cocoon.

    But now I am awake and nothing will ever come before God again. I will think of Christ, teach of Christ, preach of Christ and try to discern all His prophetic messages for our day — awake, alert, and aware! And continually watching…

    My eternal thanks for your help. Let’s keep learning, sharing and pressing forward…. What else have you discovered?

  14. “That guy has some powerful stuff going on for the last days. There’s a lot of stuff just waiting to be uncovered, connected, and worthy of multiple look-sees. Especially the two adulteresses…..”

    Penny, when you say “that guy”, are you speaking of a guy that put the search site together or about someone that wrote an article about Ezekiel?

    When you speak of the two adulterouses, I assume you are speaking of Aholah Aholibah in Ezek 23. Joseph Smith gave a sermon in which he read that chapter, as I recall… did the info you read cover that sermon?

    If there was a particular article on Ezekiel 23 I would appreciate the link

    Thanks

    Watcher

  15. Fusion says:

    Thanks guys…That’s is an app I must get as my LDS Gospel Library doesn’t search well at all. A friend of mine speculates that the church prob has some bug in the software that renders the keyword search useless if you visit Watcher’s blog…lol

    By the way, check out this great new (?) website I have found with some pertinent documentation about the Restoration.

    http://woodlandinstitute.com/

    Fusion

  16. JennyP1969 says:

    Watcher, I was actually speaking of Ezekiel. He has a LOT going on for the last days. I’m trying to figure out who the two adulteresses are in our time, “from the same mother.” Why mother? Who is she? Can’t be Wisdom. The two have betrayed the bridegroom. And that’s just the beginning of the information given in parable and mystery. If you find Joseph’s comments on Aholah and Aholibah, please share. I’ve searched JSP and SCI (holy molly! We have our own sci now!) but no luck. I’m new at this so don’t go by my search efforts ever!

  17. Joseph actually gave a discourse which began by Joseph reading all of Ezekiel 23. Quite interesting. One interpretation is that the two adulteresses in the chapter are referring to the divided kingdoms of God’s people. The kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel are likened to two adulteresses because both of them went into apostasy. In our time those two kingdoms would be characterized as the Jews and the Gentiles.

    Just a possibility.. something to ponder

  18. JennyP1969 says:

    Yes, on the Jews and Gentiles today. They love their idols more than God. They make unholy alliances for economic or political gain. They care for popularity more than God’s laws. But it comes down to the individual too. We covenant to God, then betray Him on stronger and weaker levels. The two sisters represented the stronger Israelites and Judah; the other represented the ten tribes who were weaker, but less aware, so their betrayal wasn’t as condemning as Judah’s. For us, we betray by having more light and going after worldly pursuits, praise, gain, and popularity, or watering down the law, even changing it to suit our views, or the views of others…even Caring about the church more than the God who created us, gave us a church, and then we changed it to fit us, rather than fit ourselves to Him. For the areas we are asleep or uninformed, we are less condemned. But still, we have betrayed the Bridegroom, and none are innocent. We seek the sparkly, young, well-packaged hip ideas because the Eternal is no longer so interesting or exciting. It isn’t so much that we seek truth, but we seek to make our own truths to love and be….well…true to. To worship. To love. Hence, adultery……

    There’s surely more, but that’s where I’m at so far. The imagery in this revelation is more graphic than any I’ve ever come across. It’s blunt and harsh. It’s very sexual. Is this to stress the repugnance of the adultery we’ve committed? Is it to shake us awake to our true condition? I have so many questions the more I study. But something very important, even critical is in there. In later chapters the Lord uses the same imagery for the latter-day. He’s trying through Ezekiel to tell us something more than the usual warnings.

    I’ve wondered about zoning out watching TV, video gaming, reading useless books, pornography, etc. Imagine how we look gazing at a rectangle on a wall or on a desk. We spend most of our days working to provide, but still, how well do we keep watching and thinking of our Christ while we do so? I’ve been very mindful of quilting or crocheting while watching TV, but quilts and afghans will not go with me when I die…..and should the Savior come, I doubt I would say, Hold on a second while I grab my quilts. I’ve noticed at church how seldom we actually speak and teach of Christ. We’re so used to quoting GA’s with a scripture here and there. As wonderful as our leaders are, aren’t these the philosophies of men? Good men. But even our best falls so short of God.

    Ezekiel is given thus saith the Lord direct revelation. But I can’t remember ever hearing him quoted at church. And I’ve always pretty much bypassed the OT because of the “crazy” things in it, like Lot sleeping with his daughters, and God supposedly commanding genocide. My bad. I’ve missed some key stuff. Key….Stuff.

  19. The Glider says:

    “For this reason I have been tempted several times to simply shut the blog down and not take the chance of misleading people. I still may do it.”

    PLEASE DON’T

    Your readers (at least those who comment, I can’t speak for the other lurkers like me) are grown ups and know our responsibility to sift and hold, and move upward at our own pace. Also, you do change opinions/thoughts/beliefs – and acknowledge it; very refreshing…

    Thank you for sharing and the effort of keeping a blog.

  20. Thank you for the kind words Glider. It is great to hear from you. Hope all is going well!

  21. VJ says:

    Well, I wondered if Denver Snuffer would be brought up in this discussion, and I see he has in the comments. Is what he teaches producing similar fruit or more “prophets”? Feel free to look at these, and you can determine if these are legit:

    http://thesecondcomforter.com/
    http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-witness.html

    I’ll also add that I appreciate anything that causes me to look deeper into the scriptures and history for truth, and this OWIW site has caused me to do that too. Thanks

  22. Yes, I think it is fair to say that there are more than a few of Denver’s followers who are now claiming to have some visitations and other experiences.

    Interestingly, my last rebuttal point is going to address the testimony about the visitation of angels, that Denver appears to have rejected.

  23. Fusion says:

    It is interesting to read the two testimonies above, posted by VJ:

    http://thesecondcomforter.com/
    http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-witness.html

    As a hopeful, utterly despairing and pathetic failure of a disciple that I am of Jesus, these testimonies give me great hope. As I step away from the arm of flesh that these testimonies could provide in and of themselves, and begin to question, a few things are raised.

    Firstly, I have no idea why the author of ‘secondcomforter’, would lie, considering he writes so sincerely at weepingforzion.com. So, I won’t accuse him of that. Ditto for the other blog.

    However, when I read that the Saviour is here AS the very Servant, and one or both have met Him in His new mortal role, probably in SLC, Utah, and that he is ‘a humble teacher’, I wonder if there is any hidden reference to a particular mortal who is starting to make a bit of noise. For example, I wonder if, for example, it will be claimed at some point that Denver Snuffer himself, is that very latter-day Servant…which is Jesus in His final incarnation, and thus the very Son of God returned to begin His final Watch as Snuffer. This could be a wild speculation, but so is Lotto, and sometimes people do win! Of course, most everyone loses in Lotto too, so I could more that be definitively wrong here.

    One thing is for sure, BOTH sound utterly convincing and sincere. And both are not hiding their true identities on their blogs…I commend them for that. In addition, both clearly state that they have not been commanded to keep it all completely private and not share. Give them credit for this- the pretenders at Church HQ in SLC walk around giving the implication that they have seen the Lord on a regular basis, and don’t even question each other on it…yet inside they know they have not, and it must burn them to the core whilst their up-and-comers amongst the Seventies and other aspiring leaders, give them the ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ treatment…

    On the other hand, if a FLASE Christ has commissioned these gentlemen, then I can see why they are boldly stating their testimonies- simply because they HAVE seen something…
    and if it is false, well the focus on needing the Highest Priesthood to be restored in order to see the Lord and talk with Him, would be a moot point that would fade away from current consciousness.

    What do you guys think about these?

  24. Fusion

    You bring up some interesting observations.

    In the coming months I would not be surprised if these issues continued to become pondered and spoken about more frequently.

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