Those just wanting to read the updated version of my rebuttal click on the following link
A Controversy in Zion- Part One and Two and Three and Four Final 10
click here for part three
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Can’t wait for part 3.
In the mean time can you clarify a few things for me?
-The difference between being commissioned by and having authority from Jesus Christ as in D&C 20 and 3 Nephi.
-Expound in D&C 115 mistake with the name of the church.
-Share more on the Church of the Living God
One more thought…
Is it possible for someone holding the Patriarchal Priesthood to receive the Melchezidek Priesthood?
I know that Joseph said that the temple needed to be completed, but that wasn’t needed for the 1831 conference or at other times in the past.
In other words, are the current Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency living the Law of Consecration and have been given the fullness of the Melchezidek Proeathood as a result?
#1 Difference in words used in baptismal ordinance.
I am not sure that there is a huge difference between the “meaning” behind the differing words used. The significance has to do with the fact that the wording of a verifiably correct ordiance was intentionaly changed without explanation and that it fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
We know that the previous wording was acceptable by virtue of the fact that the saints who had been baptised were not required to get rebaptized.
It is very significant that up until that the fulness of the gospel was rejected and the name of Christ was taken out of the church, the saints were baptizing using the verbiage found in the “Book of Commandments” (and Book of Mormon).
After the saints broke their covenants with the Lord, the name of the church was changed and the wording in the baptismal ordiance was changed.
The following series goes into detail demonstrating that the Doctrine and Covenants published in 1835 was not a more current version of the previously published Book of Commandments. Each book had a separate and distinct objective and each book was addressing a different church.
#2 Regarding 115 being a prophecy
Section 115 is a prophecy about the future.. when the servants literally “arise” and return to be a “standard for the nations”. Some of the terminology is paraphrasing Isaiah chapters 52 and also 60 and Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51..
Notice the following phrases that are bolded
VERILY thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and also my servant Sidney Rigdon, and also my servant Hyrum Smith, and your counselors who are and shall be appointed hereafter;
2 And also unto you, my servant Edward Partridge, and his counselors;
3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, [future event in the 3rd watch] and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;
4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. [future]
5 Verily I say unto you all: Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations;
6 And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth. [future]
7 Let the city, Far West, be a holy and consecrated land unto me; and it shall be called most holy, for the ground upon which thou standest is holy.
8 Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me, for the gathering together of my saints, that they may worship me. dual fulfilling but primarily future
Because of the new way I am reading this section, I now believe the gathering will probably begin in Far West instead of Nauvoo!
9 And let there be a beginning of this work, and a foundation, and a preparatory work, this following summer;
10 And let the beginning be made on the fourth day of July next; and from that time forth let my people labor diligently to build a house unto my name;
11 And in one year from this day let them re-commence laying the foundation of my house.
12 Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the corner stone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished. (this command is still going to be fulfilled)
13 Verily I say unto you, let not my servant Joseph, neither my servant Sidney, neither my servant Hyrum, get in debt any more for the building of a house unto my name;
14 But let a house be built unto my name according to the pattern which I will show unto them.
15 And if my people build it not according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, I will not accept it at their hands.
16 But if my people do build it according to the pattern which I shall show unto their presidency, even my servant Joseph and his counselors, then I will accept it at the hands of my people.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, it is my will that the city of Far West should be built up speedily by the gathering of my saints;
18 And also that other places should be appointed for stakes in the regions round about, as they shall be manifested unto my servant Joseph, from time to time. [Future]
19 For behold, I will be with him, and I will sanctify him before the people; for unto him have I given the keys of this kingdom and ministry. Even so. Amen.
It is interesting that some of the prophecies speak about building up the “waste places”. Yet Nauvoo is not a waste place, nor Jackson, nor Kirtland, but have you ever been to Far West? There still virtually no population in Far West proper.. it has never been seriously developed and populated in recent times.
I could certainly be wrong, but I think section 115 is a prophecy of the future and I think that it is identifying where the final work begins. This explains the parable of the redemption of Zion in section 103 that says ” the “watchmen began to build a tower. And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: What need hath the Lord of this tower…”
They got way past the foundation of the Nauvoo temple in Nauvoo, but in Far West, they only got the foundation stones laid… and one of them cracked in half (which was a bad omen).
Hence, the section was a prophecy which is simply identifying what the saints in Zion will be called and what the scattered saints outside of Zion will be called when the servant return and begin the work.
The true church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints will be those that accept the gospel and are baptized by the Lords servants, that have not yet entered into consecration in Zion. They will be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. the ones who are gathered and consecrated in the land of Zion will be called The church in Zion, or just Zion
I have checked later revelation to see of God ever refers to the Saints as the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints and I can’t find any revelations where he does.
in section 12821 Joseph is speaking rather than the Lord and he is reminiscing into early history and in verse 24 he is speaking of the future when the Latter day Saints finally offer up the sacrifice of a finished temple, etc.
Section 136 doesn’t count because it was a contrived revelation by BY and his brethren, etc.
Kirtland, but have you ever been to Far West? There still virtually no population in Far West proper.. it has never been seriously developed and populated in recent times.
in section 128:21 Joseph is speaking rather than the Lord and he is reminiscing into early history and in verse 24 he is speaking of the future when the Latter day Saints finally offer up the sacrifice of a finished temple, etc.
The keywords in section 115 take you to Isa 60.
Section 115 is a prophecy telling how the events in Isa 60 and other chapters are going to be fulfilled.
#3 Share more on the Church of the Living God
Once the Melchizedek priesthood was restored, some of the revelations began referring to the High Priests as being in an administrative function over elders and all of the other priesthood offices. It also identified these high priests as the “church of God” as opposed to the “church of Christ”.
I forget which blog I covered this in. I think it is in the Morley Farm series.
I don’t have time to develop the concept again right now, but if you will do a keyword search in the D&C using “Church” you will be able to find the places where the “church of God” and “church of the firstborn” show up and then pay close attention to the dates and the specific people being addressed.
According to section 84 everyone that recieves the Melchizedek priesthood during Joseph’s work must first hold and magnify either the Aaronic or Patriarchal priesthoods before they can transcend to the fulness of priesthood. Obviously each candidate that is elected by the Father to the fulness, still has their heritage based priesthood.
“In other words, are the current Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency living the Law of Consecration and have been given the fullness of the Melchezidek Proeathood as a result?”
Do they have all things in common?
Thank you for the response.
I don’t know if they (Q of 12 or 1st Pres.) have all things in common or not.
I’ve read D&C 115 and Isaiah 60:1-3 before. I’ll have to go back and do it again.
Yes, I’ve been to Far West. It was 10 years ago, right after my mission. And you’re right, there’s nothing there but a monument and a few corner stones.
I wish I was as awake then as I am now to fully appreciate the sacredness of the place.
Thank you for the Book if Commandments blog links. I don’t think I’ve read those yet.
So much to consume, ponder and research.
I had just re-read what you wrote about D&C 115.
I think you might be right about Far West being the begin in of the gathering place. Especially given in light of section 116 and the gathering in Adam-Ondi-Ahman.
I recall there was to be a City of Seth with a temple planned there too but the expulsion pushed the saints out of MO and it couldn’t be started or completed.
Great observation about 116. We can add section 119 to the list of sections that contain prophecies about the future also.
It appears that during the dark Far West era the Lord began speaking about the future because it was obvious that the Saints were not in a position to repent and establish Zion at that time.
I would love to find some historical information that secifies what the “nicolaitane band” was that was practicing “secret abominations” that Newel K. Whitney was involved with. (section 117:11)
Thanks for your insights. After my mission (I am female) I knew there were issues I could not identify. I just felt some things with the church were not quite right. I have slowly been researching and reading and studying all that I can and when I have time (do not have much time like everyone else).
So I appreciate sites like this that give me something to research and think about.
So many questions about the church, and we will never have the answers in this life.
Watching. Thought you might like to read my own review of:
Passing the Heavenly Gift, by Denver Snuffer.
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