An Evening in Boise with Denver Snuffer- Part Two

Because of my belief that the saints have been condemned and rejected as a church and that God was, by his own admission, only “near” for a short window of time during the restoration movement, and has temporarily turned his face from us and withdrawn much of his spirit, people who claim they have received the second comforter and endowment are not credible to me.

This does not mean  that I think they are lying.

I don’t.

I think they sincerely believe they have had experiences that are very real to them, and in some cases, they probably are very real.

I just don’t think they represent what they claim.

The only thing that kept Denver on the outer edge of my radar since I first heard about him was the continued comments about him on my blog, and emails sent to me, and occasional statements about him on other blog posts.

Several times over the years people have told me that He and I have lots in common and that we teach similar things.

It is true that we have both been critical of the modern church and we have both observed some disconcerting historical issues having to do with the LDS restoration movement.

Nevertheless, comparisons about the two of us teaching similar things has always perplexed, concerned, and frustrated me given the fact that Denver and I seriously disagree on many of the most important issues.

Many of our ultimate conclusions from the disconcerting issues in church history are diametrically opposed.

He appears to believe that all people, (with special emphasis on himself),  have had unrestrained access to the other side of the veil, the fulness of the Gospel, and the fulness of the priesthood, from the time of Joseph Smith to the present.

On the other hand,  I believe that the heavens began to close and that the Lord began holding his spirit from all of the inhabitants of the earth back in the early years of the restoration movement.

I believe darkness covers the minds of all people and that ALL FLESH has become CORRUPT.

I believe we live during a time that the scriptures refer to as a time of “hidden darkness”, when we think we are really enlightened even though we wallow in darkness and confusion.

The gift of faith began to diminish in the earth when the Gentiles rejected the fulness back in the early 1830’s. I believe the greater gift of faith and the opening of the heaves will not take place until the gentiles repent, additional parts of the sealed portion come forth, and the light breaks forth again in the generation when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled , which I believe is very near.

At the “set time“, the first laborers of the last kingdom will return and faith will once again increase in the earth. ( Regarding the set time, see Psalms 102:13 and Doctrine and Covenants 124:6

This will be when the Marvelous Work and a Wonder and the dispensation of the fulness of times are ushered in with the return of God’s servants that have been ordained and anointed to this work and who are clearly identified in the Doctrine and Covenants and associated church history.

An Evening with Denver Snuffer

In my effort to become better acquainted with Denver and what he teaches, I have now read many  of his blog posts, his book, PTHG, and have read two of his online articles.

I also attended the Snuffer lecture in Boise on September 10th.

Let me begin by saying how disappointed I was to see a table set up with people selling CD’s of Denver talks.

There were signs posted on the doors of the conference warning people to not record the presentation.

Before Denver spoke, a fellow got up and warned everyone that Denver held the copyright on what was going to be said and that anyone that copies it without permission and anyone that  puts the lecture on the Internet will be sued by a very capable attorney! (This was followed by laughter from the audience because it was obvious who the very capable attorney was. I was personally not laughing as I was trying to envision Christ’s disciples at the sermon on the mount handing out ominous legal copyright warnings and selling CD’s of previous talks, etc.)

Make no mistake about it, this is a serious, well thought-out business enterprise with a successful marketing strategy. Denver’s talks are being considered and marketed as a highly protected proprietary intellectual asset.

His initial book that was a “how to” book on getting the Second Comforter obviously hit a nerve that resonated with numerous frustrated and curious church members and Denver has parlayed that success into a loyal following, followed by sales of other books and talks on CD.

I believe the vast majority of the readers of his first “how to” book have failed to experience the desired response they were looking for. The small group making similar claims as Denver, as I said, are no doubt, sincere in their beliefs.

Although I believe his followers have failed to rend the true veil of unbelief, several books and audio tapes later, his focus is now on establishing Zion.

(Yes, I know, Denver and his associates do not personally financially benefit directly from the profits generated from this enterprise, he donates them to the church, I have heard all of that. )

Very Large Crowd

Although the 400 seats were not all filled, there were lots of people there. Probably over 300 I would estimate. I am guessing that all of the seats would have been filled but the church disciplinary council and pending excommunication scared some people away.

Interestingly, Denver did not announce that he had been excommunicated in his remarks, even though he had previously been informed of the outcome.

He did announce his excommunication the next day on his blog.

According to a recent blog post, the brethren are contacting Stake Presidents in Idaho Falls, the appointed place for his next talk, to have them warn members of the church and discouraging them from listening to him.

I disagree with the measures the church is taking to discourage people from listening to Denver. What ever happened to “prove all things, hold fast to that which is good“!

Paul’s admonition was given to members of the church, not investigators, and it assumes that a person has prayerfully searched the scriptures, taken the Holy Ghost as their guide, and is capable of discerning truth.

Even though some of his current followers will probably be scared back into submission and will avoid him like the plague now that he has been excommunicated, I would not be surprised if his work continues to gain momentum, drawing from disenfranchised people both in and out of the church.

His charisma and teachings will attract some of those that are yearning for Zion and starving for the spiritual enlightenment that is missing in the micromanaged, pre-planned, correlated, teaching format ,offered by the corporation.

He will attract people that are craving a little  adult conversation  about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ-like People

Let me say that I felt a really good spirit about many of the people that attended the lecture as I watched them interact with each other, heard some comments, and spoke briefly with the people sitting near me.

They appeared to be salt of the earth… humble, teachable, loving people, seeking further enlightenment..

From what I observed and felt, the thought came to me that many of these people were the kind of people I want to have as my neighbors in Zion.

Frankly, I was a little surprised about this because I have encountered some pretty mean-spirited, costic, defenders of Denver on the Internet that did not project the same humble spirit.

The gospel net gathers all kinds of fish. I guess Denvers net does too.

Doctrinal Innocence

Both the couple to the right of me and the two men to the left of me commented on how marked up my scriptures were.

I was a little surprised at their amazement as I fully expected their scriptures to look the same way and for them to be significantly more doctrinally informed than the average member of the church.

In the brief exchange I had with them, they indicated they had not studied the scriptures very much and did not know much about doctrine.

The couple to the right of me did not have their scriptures with them.

The guy directly to the left of me had a completely unmarked but old set of scriptures that looked like they had seldom been opened.

Both sets of people on either side of me were hyper focused on Denver’s remarks and took voracious notes on notepads, as if Christ himself was speaking.

They seemed to hang on every word that Denver spoke.

I believe Snuffer is attracting a very different demographic than Jim Harmston did.

The Harmston folks were largely fringe types with Brigham Young type fundamentalist leanings toward polygamy, who had read and believed much of the Brigham Young dogma contained in the Journal of Discourses.

I believe many of the followers of Denver are extremely naive from a doctrinal point of view, do not necessarily have fundamentalist leanings, and many of them appear to be very innocent.

Obviously, the people sitting close to me are not indicative of all of Denver’s followers. There are undoubtedly also followers of Denver who have searched the scriptures, determined that all is not well in Zion and are only too willing to jump on the bandwagon of a martyr that has the gonads to publicly challenge the church on these issues.

The effects of “Google Apostasy” are upon the church and the casualties are significant.

While one of the effects of the Google Apostasy is for some people to lose faith and leave the church, the other is for the honest, sincere, spiritually starved people to go search for the knowledge and spiritual feast that they are not getting from their membership in the corporate church organization.

Nine Truths to Perpetuate one Lie

I would characterize about 99% of Denver’s presentation as being rather innocuous. It was similar to how a really interesting, articulate, and well read, gospel doctrine teacher might give a lesson.

He is extremely well read and his remarks were interesting, informative, and engaging if not captivating.

I really enjoyed Denver’s unique contextual use of the terms  “button button who has the button” and “genealogical terms“. It makes me wonder if we frequent the same blogs. LOL

The Other 1%

It is the other 1% of what he said that caused me great pause.

Before getting into that, let me just say that Denver appears to be extremely careful in the words that he uses and he often says things in a way that enables him to get a point across without actually taking a clear stand and incriminating himself.

A good case in point has to do with how he makes a case for section 110 not being an authentic historical event.

He implies that it might have been forged by Warren Parrish, and yet, he never actually comes out and says, “I don’t believe section 110 is a true revelation” or that “Warren forged the document”.

He simply provides the historical documentation and persuasive rhetoric that would create doubts in the minds of his readers.

He tells them that there are people in high places in the church that also have their doubts about section 110,

there are those serious minded individuals who are trying to sort this out right now at high levels of the Church who know these are important issues which are NOT as settled as the past pronouncements make it appear.”

He makes statements like you can believe it if you want, but….

Nevertheless, he never actually commits himself on whether he accepts or rejects section 110 as being true or not.

This is one of the things I have noticed about his writing technique. It is also convenient for his followers that are promoting his teachings on the Internet.

They will quote from Denver and try to destroy the credibility of section 110 but the minute you call them on it and begin trying to engage them in deeper conversation and showing them the doctrinal and scriptural issues that testify of the validity of section 110, they will quickly back-pedal and respond by saying “I am not aware that Denver ever says he does not believe section 110 is true“.

That pretty much sums up how Denver and some of his followers operate.

He is a wise and sophisticated word-meister that chooses his words well. He can persuasively promote what he passionately believes, in a compelling way, without clearly stating that he personally believes the supposition that he is promoting.

By doing this, he avoids incriminating himself.

I suppose this has made it very difficult for the powers that be downtown to publicly justify themselves in casting him out of the church.

Although I plan on presenting an intellectual and contextual argument for why I believe section 110, and what it reveals about the doctrine of Elijah, in my upcoming response to Denvers rejection of section 110, the bottom-line is.


Use the Holy Ghost and personal revelation to tell you if it is true.

If you don’t feel that you can spiritually discern if the revelation is true or not, you have much bigger problems to deal with because your salvation is predicated upon your ability to receive personal revelation and be able to discern the truth.

For the record, I agree with Denver that section 110 does not support the interpretation and doctrine of Elijah that is given by the corporate church.

I also agree that it does not appear that Joseph, Oliver or Warren  ever spoke  publicly about the visit from Christ, Moses, Elias and Elijah. I have openly blogged about this perplexing historical dilemma for years.

It is unfortunate that those two issues created a stumbling block for Denver.

Nevertheless, I maintain that the events contained in section 110 literally did take place and that 110 is a true revelation.

I believe Snuffer made a big jump to a false conclusion when he questioned the authenticity of 110 and in so doing, he threw the baby out with the bath water.

I have explained in several posts that 110 has to do with an intervention and associated solution having to do with the consequences of the Saints rejection of the fulness of gospel.

The simple answer to Denver’s dilemma about Oliver and Joseph and their scribe Warren Cowdery never publicly speaking about the event,  is that Christ commanded Joseph and Oliver to not disclose what took place.

A strong precedent for that kind of temporary secrecy is found in the New Testament account of Christ’s commandment to Peter James and John on the mount of transfiguration to not disclose to anyone what had taken place for a designated period of time:

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.”

Although Denver doesn’t say he rejects the revelation he makes it clear that he questions where it came from. This can devastate a person’s faith..

The Art of Being Evasive

Another case in point, having to do with how cagey Denver is in his writing can be illustrated in Denvers’s response to the following question from one of his followers:

Q from follower:  “Does he actually claim in the first quote that all the keys of the priesthood are not held by Thomas S. Monson?”

A from Denver: “No.  I don’t take a position on that.  In one chapter I entertain the possibility of that and discuss how important the church remains anyway.  As to whether he has them all, that is a matter between him and the Lord.” (Blog)


Denver doesn’t take a position on whether Monson holds all of the same keys and priesthood that Joseph held… but he assures us that the church remains important anyway?

Is there any question about how Denver feels about  this topic?

After reading the first part of Denver’s book, there is no question in my mind how Denver feels about it, even if he doesn’t want to take an official position on it.

It is blatantly obvious in my opinion , that Denver does not think that the brethren hold all of the keys and power and authority that Joseph held, and yet, he does not come out and acknowledge it in so many words.

I believe this is one of the reasons it has taken the church so long to deal with him. He has the ability to get points across without technically incriminating himself.

I believe his posture with regard to the church is changing now that he has been excommunicated.

He will become increasingly authoritarian.

He salts his posts with prophetic declarations:

“..there have been changes in heaven and on earth recently. I’ve done all I have done in obedience to our Lord. Things will unfold and everybody will have a more fulsome understanding of things. Be patient. Be believing. Do not despair as God’s work unfolds.”

Clearly Denver is positioning himself as a prophet with a message from the Lord.

Because of this claim, it behooves each of us to examine this man’s doctrine very closely.

Anyway, I am going to provide a critique of his book and of his views on section 110.

I am, however, going to provide in this post, a summation of the 1% of his remarks in Boise that caused me great pause.

Please understand that I am simply sharing what I thought I heard.

To be continued…

[Editorial Note: The third and final part of this series was going to detail the ten things I heard Denver say in Boise that causes me indigestion. I have decided to suspend this series for now. I will post it at a later time to see if my concerns about where Denver and his followers are heading, comes to fruition.

Following this series I was going to do the rebuttal on PTHG. However, I have since been contacted by a reader of Denver’s books who engaged me in an interesting discussion. He wanted to broker a meeting between me and Denver.

During the discussion with this person, I offered to send each of my 20 issues of critique to Denver before posting them and giving Denver the opportunity to respond to it. I am happy to provide Denver’s rebuttal, to each of my rebuttals, directly following each of the doctrinal or historical criticisms that I provide.

This would enable all readers of this series to be able to view both sides of the issue at one time, back to back.

He suggested I contact Denver directly with this offer.

That is what I am doing now.

 If you are interested in participating in this format, Denver, please let me know within one week, before I begin the critique, otherwise, I will simply proceed. ]


Click here for part three

22 Responses to An Evening in Boise with Denver Snuffer- Part Two

  1. Brett says:

    I think whether or not you persuade people or not, I think you will still have gained a lot of respect.

  2. Watcher, I appreciate your efforts to help us all to “prove all things”. I really like your direction to “READ IT IN THE SPIRIT!” I intend to do just that. My only disconcern with what you are teaching is that the heavens are closed right now. It doesn’t fit the pattern. Lehi’s people were more or less wicked and yet he had a vision of the Savior, Nephi and Jacob and others in the Book of Mormon did as well. The message of the Book of Mormon is that God speaks to those who attempt to follow Him. Having said that, I have not, but I just cannot accept that God would stop talking to us. In Moroni 7:36-37 we read:

    36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

    37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

    So, in that I read that if miracles of angels appearing have ceased, then it is because of unbelief. Maybe you are not saying that angels appearing have ceased, but only that the Savior has stopped appearing. But I believe firmly that we cannot limit God as to whether He appears to anyone or not. I hope that He is appearing to some, I pray that some day He will appear to me and comfort and guide me as well.

    I look forward to more of your assessment since all that really matters is the truth. Thanks for being one who watches to help us find the truth. 🙂

    • Eternal

      I understand why you feel the way you do.

      You are saying that the heavens closing does not fit the pattern that was presented in the Book of Mormon.

      That may be true during certain periods in the Book of Mormon.

      However, we are not living during Book of Mormon times. If you want to look for patterns, read all of the passages from modern revelation that apply to the latter day gentiles. God told us to seek him while he was NEAR. That mean he was not planning on always being near!

      He told us he was holding his spirit from the inhabitants of the earth.

      What exactly does that mean to you?

      Look up all of the other passages I have provided.

      Also look in secton one. The time is coming with “faith will increase in the earth”.

      That means that prior to that designated time in the future, there will have been a lack of faith.

      The Doctrine and Covenants was written specifically to the Gentiles and the House of Israel being converted during the Nauoo era during Joseph’s generation and for our benefit. Don’t limit your view of todays world based on how the Lord interacted with Lehi, view it based on Gods promises about how he would interact with the saints if they broke the covenant.

      One more thing.

      The following snippet from the BofM passage you wrote happens to be a prophecy:

      “wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain”

      That prophecy proves that unbelief can and will cause the vistation of angels and the Savior to cease… and… well, the good news is that the light is going to shine forth again and those who will repent, will have the opportunity to repent.

  3. doorsxp says:

    You are spot on about the 9 truths to perpetuate 1 lie and the art of being evasive. DS has a habit of floating ideas without explicitly embracing them, to plant the seeds of doubt.

  4. Pearl says:

    One Who Watches…. you are good. You are articulate, well-read, seemingly honest, a man of integrity. However, if you engage Denver on his grounds, he will thrash you. That’s just my opinion. This decision of yours to postpone disappoints me.

  5. Brett says:

    I’m always weary about judging a person’s intentions, or judging at another at all for that matter.

    This idea that DS instills “seeds of doubt,” may not be exactly wahat DS intends. However, I did notice in PTHG that he does discuss a topic, but then never actually draws the conclusion. However, I have a different take. It may just be that he does not want anyone to form an opinion based upon his own. And I think he provides enough background that one could go either way.

    For example, in both examples of polygamy, and black/priesthood, he explained why it came about, and why it ended. I could never discern whether he was saying it was wrong to start (living polygamy/denying black P) or it was wrong to stop.

    I don’t think that he slants the background so far that he may not have actually intended that blacks should never have been given the priesthood, or we shouldn’t have capitulated to the US government.

    He just gave the historical and doctrinal background and lets the reader draw the conclusion. What harm is there in this?

    Look, he probably could lead a following if he wanted to. It seems to me that he really doesn’t. If he really wanted a following, he’d actually draw the conclusion. IMO

    • Devin says:

      One of the many “traditions” that have pervaded the church, and is one of the tools of the devil, is the phrase “doubt your doubts before you doubt the church”. What if those doubts were put there by the spirit in order to get you to ponder, ask and receive? What if Denver’s teaching style of planting that seed of doubt was meant for the same reason, to get you to look more into it and to receive for yourself the answer from the Spirit?

      • Anytime anyone ponders and reevaluates their beliefs for any reason it is a good thing.

        If Denvers writings get anyone to reevaluate the truth claims of the church or to expand their knowledge of the gospel, that is a wonderful blessing.

        The problem with Denver is that he actually presents himself as the solution to the problem and therefore people have begun putting their faith in him and in his differing system of salvation. .

        He has started a new church dispite telling everyone that he hasn’t.

        He has initiated a whole new system of salvation based on his personal revelations.

        He claims that his petition before the Lord in favor of women recieving the priesthood resulted in a new priesthood protocol that cannot be found in the scriptures.

        He has initiated a differing baptism protocol from the most recent one that was established by Joseph Smith in Section 20.

        He has rejected Section 20 altogether even though it was one of the foundational sections of scripture upon which the governance of the restored church was to be patterned after.

        He has received his own revelations that completely change and conflict with some of the JST passages that came through Joseph Smith.

        He rejects and mocks the importance of the governing priesthood offices that are essential until Zion is established:

        11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

        12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

        13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

        14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

        Those who follow Denver Snuffer and accept his new name and position of “David” are being tossed to and fro with strange winds of doctrine from the sleight of a cunning and delusional man because they have rejected the very protocol that God has established to keep us on the strait and narrow.

  6. jw says:

    I don’t mark my scriptures anymore. The margins are too narrow and the pages too thin for my sloppy handwriting. I have notebooks and word processor docs for my notes & investigations. Reading past old notes influences me toward old thoughts; a fresh page encourages fresh thoughts.

    The way I read the scriptures is that the Lord never turns away a sincere seeker, no matter what other circumstances may be. The jews in Jerusalem were under condemnation to the point where they were about to get destroyed, on top of living a gospel law even more basic than ours. Yet Nephi ascended to great heights and was shown a vision few humans have seen in mortality. He tells his brothers that being a part of a group isn’t what determines one’s greatness (or fallibility), but one’s desire to follow Christ. The Lord couldn’t hold anything back from the Brother of Jared because of his faith; if any among us can exercise our faith in Christ sufficiently it seems to me the results will be similar.

    Anyway, you do point out something that has always bothered me about Snuffer’s writings. In his books – especially PTHG – he can be very bold about things, but frequently backpedals in his blog. Given Packer’s predilection to run out people who contradict the orthodox view, he seemed strangely surprised and dismayed about the process of getting excommunicated, even though pretty much everyone saw it coming when the book came out. What surprises me is it took them so long. I suspect he may have a few fans among top leadership, or at the very least some took his claims about his audience with Christ seriously enough to tread carefully. At this point I think his message would be better served going damn-the-torpedoes forward at full tilt. This trepidation and back-and-forth lawyerly speak is just going to get him run over even more if he keeps standing in the middle of the road with a foot in each lane.

    Snuffer seems to be resisting getting pushed in a direction he doesn’t want to go. Whether you believe it’s divine guidance or not everyone will have to determine for themselves. Abinadi was bold, and yes, he got burned at the stake for it. It was crystal-clear where he stood though. I’m not prepared yet to put Snuffer on that same level, but there are things he (and you) are saying that have to be both said and heard very clearly. People are stumbling along in an all-is-well-in-Zion stupor, and other are simply falling away. Something has to change.

  7. Pearl says:

    I wanted to make one other quick comment about this part of your post here:

    “Paul’s admonition (to prove all things) was given to members of the church, not investigators, and it assumes that a person has prayerfully searched the scriptures, taken the Holy Ghost as their guide, and is capable of discerning truth.”

    That’s one mighty monstrous ASSumption. Just look at the opposing viewpoints. Both sides claim prayer. Both sides claim scripture study. Both sides claim guidance by the Holy Ghost. Both sides claim the Truth, that they know and embrace the Truth.

    It doesn’t seem to be so simple anymore, no disrespect to dear St. Paul, whose teachings I love dearly.

    It’s almost a twisted reenactment of Joseph’s day wherein he said an appeal to the Bible yielded no good answers. Today, it seems, we cannot appeal to folks’ claims of following the Spirit. “The Spirit told me Denver has seen Jesus.” “Well, the Spirit told me he has not.”

    And, as you well know, it’s not exactly religiously correct to doubt one’s experiences with “the Spirit”!!

    I hope you are up to the challenge. I’ve been with lawyers who can make you start thinking black is white in about 20 min. I know my limits. I hope you do. 🙂

  8. Fellow bloggers and commenters

    It has been fun to have some lively discussion about a number of issues.

    I am normally a big fan of free speech, however, with regard to the current topics being discussed, lets please take the high road in the comments we make and try to stick to substance and lets keep a high vibratory frequency.

    I have allowed some negative comments to be made regarding Denver because I have taken it on the chin from some of his loyal followers and I figured the door should swing both ways, however, I feel that we all loose brain cells, dignity and the spiritual outlook we all want to have when we allow the conversation to degenerate.

    I have a huge amount of respect for the amount of time, effort and study that Denver has put into his research. I also agree with an awful lot of what he says.

    I simply have some doctrinal disagreements with him that I think need to be heard by those that are wanting to hear all view points.

    That is all this is about.

    At the end of the day, we are all brothers and sisters and we all yearn for Zion.

    I hate to block comments but I think I will start being liberal with the delete button if people are not being respectful of others.



  9. Bounce Back says:

    Regarding the scripture: 37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

    God tells us when all is vain, he tells us in D&C section 104
    54 And again, a commandment I give unto you concerning your stewardship which I have appointed unto you.

    55 Behold, all these properties are mine, or else your faith is vain, and ye are found hypocrites, and the covenants which I have made unto me are broken;

    56 And if the properties are mine, then you are a steward; otherwise ye are no stewards.

    I think it is pretty clear if we aren’t living consecration then our faith is vain.

    I have read all of OWIW’s posts and find him to be very inspired and
    I have benefitted greatly by holding onto the iron rod which is the word of God. I am better able to “measure every man’s doctrine by the 4 standard works” which President Joseph Fielding Smith advises, thanks to having the scriptures open up to me through understanding the doctrine of the 3rd watch. explained by OWIW.

    I have had to decide whether or not I really believe Christ. I now read the scriptures with a better understanding of what it means to believe Christ. If He gives an unconditional promise I need to believe that it really will come to pass.

    I have come to believe all the unconditional promises in the D&C that tell us how Zion will be redeemed and WHO has been ordained to do it. For this reason I don’t need to follow any other person who claims to be laying the foundation for Zion.

    I pray that all will read the scriptures with an open heart and believe Christ by measuring every man’s doctrine with Christ’s words.

  10. Lee says:

    I remember the first time I went to the temple, I saw cash being exchanged for various things… I was like WHOA! I was like don’t these people remember a certain story about Jesus?!

    Reading your reaction about the CD sales reminded me of my experience in the temple.

  11. Jennifer

    I am not posting your comment because it has been posted multiple times already.

    Feel free to contact me personally if you desire


    [at] gmail

    dot com

  12. James Muir says:

    Watcher you are fast becoming my favorite blogger on things Mormon. I hope you got it all. Would love to sit and chat for hours on end. You ever going to open up? I am Nightlion on the board

  13. Jay Ball says:

    Of interest regarding Denver’s stand on the authenticity of D&C 110. He appears to have either changed his mind, or increased his understanding about the subject. Writing about the sealing power, in his book, “Beloved Enos”, page 145-146 Denver writes, “[Joseph Smith] received visits from Christ in the Sacred Grove in 1820 (JS-H 1:17), in Hiram, Ohio with Sidney Rigdon in 1832 (D&C 76: 20-24), and again in Kirtland Temple in 1836 (D&C 110:1-10).”
    Then, Denver quotes D&C 132:46-49 where Joseph’s calling and election is recorded and continues, “This promise was recorded in 1843. Joseph had already received the sealing authority from Elijah in 1836.”
    Beloved Enos was published in 2009. PTHG published in 2011.

    • Jay

      Thank you for sharing those quotes and observations. Snuffer actually also acknowledges section 110 as a legitimate event at times in PTHG, such as pg 327.

      That is one of the frustrating and inconsistent characteristics in the writings of Snuffer. He will sometimes throw huge doubt about an event or doctrine in some instances but at other times he will use the event or doctrine as a credible example or source to prove another point. One seldom if ever knows what he honestly personally believes.

      I noticed this and made mention of it in my paper noting that I felt huge cognitive dissonance while reading PTHG.

      For those that are interested, Gregory L Smith at The Interpreter is doing a review of PTHG and he notes the same thing stating that “The claims do not always seem entirely self-consistent” .

    • Jay

      Thank you for sharing those quotes and observations. Snuffer actually also implies that section 110 was a legitimate event at times in PTHG, such as pg 327.

      That is one of the frustrating and inconsistent characteristics in the writings of Snuffer. He will sometimes throw huge doubt about an event or doctrine in some instances but at other times he will use the event or doctrine as a credible example or source to prove another point. One seldom if ever knows what he honestly personally believes.

      I noticed this and made mention of it in my paper noting that I felt huge cognitive dissonance while reading PTHG.

      For those that are interested, Gregory L Smith at The Interpreter is doing a review of PTHG and he notes the same thing stating that “The claims do not always seem entirely self-consistent”. In another place that I cannot readily find I seem to recall Smith making a much more specific observation about how the author waffles back and forth on issues.

  14. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    In regards to the conflicting witness that you have received from the Holy Ghost, you should really read the following link to a post on this blog. It changed my life.

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