Will Denver Snuffer be the September 7th?

A high profile, believing Mormon, that has written several books about Mormonism, has publicly “denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith and put the church in a negative light”.

Please don’t jump to conclusions.

I am not referring to the person you think I am.

I am not referring to Denver Snuffer, although those exact words are contained in the Notice of Disciplinary Council that was recently hand delivered to him.

Last week I got a call from one of my sons who said he had heard a remarkable interview on NPR that I needed to hear.

Just Google NPR and Black Mormon“, he said.

I did so and was fascinated to hear a short interview between NPR’s Jacki Lyden and LDS scholar and author, Terryl Givens. The interview was actually given back in March regarding changes that were made in the new digital scriptures, I glanced at it back then but I had not paid close attention to it at the time.

Givens is a professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond and a celebrated LDS author who has served as a Bishop. He is very active in the LDS faith and he provides one of the messages of faith on mormonscholarstestify.org.

In the brief five minute interview, Givens was asked about the new digital edition of the LDS scriptures and some of the ground breaking changes that have been made in them.

Givens said, “.. there are some rather substantive changes in terms of the introductions to the actual scriptural material. And those are what are really catching the attention of members of the church.”

Regarding the Priesthood ban on Blacks, Givens said that “it appears that Joseph Smith himself ordained black members of the church to the priesthood” and that “after his death, beginning in the late 1840’s, Brigham Young apparently charted a new direction” with regard to the Blacks and the priesthood.

He said that the priesthood ban was “.. a matter of error or cultural and historical conditioning rather than as the will of God“.

He acknowledged that the change in direction has “been an albatross around the neck of the church and was for many, many years“.

Givens noted that although there had not been any introductory notes to the Official Declaration 2 previously, it now acknowledges that

The Book of Mormon teaches  [that] all are alike unto God, including black and white..It mentioned that during Joseph Smith’s lifetime, a few black male members of the church were ordained to the priesthood. and that “church records offer no clear insights into the origin of this practice [of banning Blacks from the priesthood.”

It appears that the “records” that offer no clear insights to the origin of the practice are the scriptures. LOL

When Givens was asked about the practice of polygamy, he noted that again, introductory notes have been added to Official Declaration 1 stating that “The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless he declares otherwise.”

Givens said, “I think one could read that almost as an inversion of many Mormons’ historical understanding of plural marriage.

For many years, it was taught that plural marriage represented a higher law, a law to which people could aspire if they were worthy and prepared for this higher law.

Now, that’s been inverted to the point that monogamy is declared to be the standard law for God of marriage. And polygamy represents a brief and momentary historical aberration from that norm.”

Give observed: “That’s a fairly significant change in focus.

In essence, Givens is saying that from the time of Brigham Young, the church got off track regarding two of the most important doctrines.

Significant errors were made regarding the proper understanding and practice of who the priesthood was to be given to, and what the law of Celestial Marriage is.

In other words, Brigham Young acted falsely in his role of the prophet of the church.

The revelatory guidance he gave to the church was wrong and he made some serious errors regarding Blacks and the priesthood and regarding polygamy and the true celestial doctrine pertaining to marriage.

Obviously, every one of the presidents of the church that followed Brigham’s lead or refused to acknowledge the false doctrines he taught when doctrines were adjusted, were just as guilty as Brigham Young.

Although changes in doctrine have been made and the pendulum is swinging the other way regarding some of the important doctrinal issues, none of the presidents of the church have stood up to the plate and acknowledged these serious mistakes.

Rather, the church has decided to slowly and subtly revise the context of some of the official declarations and retroactively provide explanations of mainstream beliefs so that it will appear to future generations as if the true doctrines were always understood and taught even while false practices emerge for a season.

All of these changes in the scriptures are being made without having to make a formal public apology and acknowledgement that every president of the Church since Brigham Young has perpetuated serious errors and practices.

In essence, Professor Givens publicly “denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith and put the church in a negative light”.

Will he be hauled into a church tribunal like Denver Snuffer?

I suspect not.

Of course, Givens understands a little more about diplomacy than snuffer does. It was clearly “ cultural and historical conditioning ” that was the culprit, not the incompetence of Brigham Young and those that followed in his footsteps.

Givens has the ability to make someone feel like they just got kissed even though he actually gave them a backhand to the jaw.

In light of the current event having to do with Denver Snuffer, I find the above mentioned interview amazing.

I have previously suggested that John Dehlin is guilty of doing significantly more damage to the reputation of the church and its leaders than Denver Snuffer has done. At least Snuffer continues to sincerely believe.

It seems somewhat unfair that people like Givens and Dehlin are given a free pass to denigrate the reputations of church leaders and yet Denver Snuffer is being called on the carpet for simply being honest about some of the problematic historical issues.

Nevertheless, Snuffer obviously knew he was heading down this path and the brethren have labored with him and given him every opportunity to change his course. As I have observed in other posts, the church is now on the defensive because of the ongoing carnage from the Google Apostasy and they want to avoid high profile disciplinary actions whenever possible. They did not want it to come to this.

Denver surely knew it was  going to come to this if he didn’t back off. He has counted the cost and appears to be unflinching in his stance. He does not appear to be terminating his speaking tour or the publication of the book that the church finds so offensive.

As I told a reader in a personal email six months ago, “Denver has put the church leaders between a rock and a hard spot, if they do nothing about him, there will continue to be fallout from what he has written, on the other hand, if they EX him and make a martyr out of him, he has the potential of taking a lot of followers with him and creating a public relations nightmare.”

Either way, tithing income will suffer and that is a major consideration to the brethren.

Unfortunately, Denver has put himself between a rock and a hard spot as well by continually bearing testimony that the modern church is true and that the leaders are God’s anointed and that every member should obey the leaders.

Because of this, Snuffer is going to have a credibility problem at this point regardless of what he does.

If he decided to repent and follow the council of the brethren, it looks like he bagged out on the instructions he has been getting from Christ and the ominous prophecy he made about himself being a servant of the Lord a few months ago.

On the other hand, if he continues going counter to the admonition of the brethren, his past advice to support the leaders looks less than inspired.

What to do?

One of the shocking statements in the letter of the disciplinary council that Denver received is the notice that his witnesses had to be approved by his local church leaders.

If you wish to bring any witnesses, let me know by Wednesday, August 28th so that I can consider who you would like to bring and their purpose in participating in the council, in addition to the High Council“.

Imagine that!

Now it is no longer the exclusive prerogative of the accused to choose their witnesses and have them testify on their behalf in the court hearing. Apparently, the Stake President can now prevent a witness from being heard for virtually any reason. I don’t remember seeing that in the protocol in the scriptures.

It is no secret that President Hunt has been working closely with the brethren on the Denver Snuffer problem and that they have bent over backwards to try and avert a confrontation.

Their hand has been forced.

It would appear that they have determined that the fallout of this court proceeding will be less, in the long run, than if they allow him to continue unrestrained.

For those who sustain the leaders of the church as prophets seers and revelators, it would appear as if the officially ordained prophets aren’t buying what Denver is selling. They don’t seem to think that Jesus is directing his efforts.

They don’t believe the god that Denver is communing with behind the veil is the same god they are communing with behind the veil.

I have felt this September was going to be memorable, but I hadn’t counted on this particular drama.  It will be interesting to see how much traction and publicity this event attracts. One of the great sales strategies is to offer people a choice rather than to ask them if they have decided to make the purchase.

Now weak-minded people that need to follow a prophet have some exciting drama and a choice of which prophet they want to follow. Will it be Monson or Snuffer?

Anyway, it has now been 20 years since the famed September Six were weighed in the balance and found wanting.

September of 93 was a noteworthy time in LDS church history.

Will destiny make Snuffer the September 7th added to the list in September of 2013?

Advertisements

13 Responses to Will Denver Snuffer be the September 7th?

  1. mmmmm1234 says:

    Maxine Hanks said recently (I’m paraphrasing) that since she was re-baptized that there was now a vacancy in the Quorum of the Six Apostates.

  2. Karen says:

    There has been a vacancy there for some time as Avraham Gileadi’s (one of the original Sept 6) excommunication was EXPUNGED by the Church, and therefore his official records of the Church show NO action ever having been taken against him.

  3. dallon j says:

    “If he decided to repent and follow the council of the brethren, it looks like he bagged out on the instructions he has been getting from Christ and the ominous prophecy he made about himself being a servant of the Lord a few months ago.”

    “When the Seed of the Woman was born, a new star appeared in the heavens. In like manner, when the Lion of Judah returns, as with his first coming, there will be a new star seen. All the world will note its appearance and shall be troubled at its meaning. When it makes its appearance, you may know His return is soon upon the world. You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.”

    this is hardly a prophecy that can establish his cred as a servant of god, its just repeating what joseph said and substituting “new star” for the more accurate description joseph gave of COMET

    “Jerusalem must be rebuilt.–& Judah return, must return & the temple water come out from under the temple–the waters of the dead sea be healed.–it will take some time to build the walls & the Temple. &c & all this must be done before Son of Man will make his appearance; wars & rumours of wars. signs in the heavens above on the earth beneath Sun turned to darkness moon to blood, oceans heaving beyond their bound.–then one grand sign of the son of the son of man [sic] in heaven. but what will the world do? they will say it is a planet. a comet, &c. consequently the sun [Son] of man will come as the sign of the soming of the son of man; is as the light of the morning cometh out of the east.”

  4. Karen

    I think that is really fantastic if that is true.

    I noticed that you made a similar comment on another blog and in that comment you said “Avraham Gileadi’s excommunication was EXPUNGED by the Church, an admission that it should never have happened. He did not have to be rebaptized. There is no longer anything regarding an excommunication in his official church record.”

    http://www.wheatandtares.org/12576/is-excommunication-useful/#comments

    According to the Deseret News, your comment that he was never rebaptised is erroneious. He was in fact rebaptised in 1996-

    “Hebrew scholar Avraham Gileadi has been rebaptized into the LDS Church after being excommunicated for apostasy along with five other writers and scholars in September 1993.

    The same group of local church leaders who participated in Gileadi’s excommunication were present at the baptism service. “It was like `We’re here to support you, Brother Gileadi,’ ” he said of the atmosphere at the baptism service. Compared to events three years ago, “There seems to be more of a spirit of reconciliation.”

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/476161/SCHOLAR-REBAPTIZED-INTO-LDS-CHURCH.html?pg=all

    The article sounds pretty credible to me.

    Can you refer me to a credible source that claims he was never rebaptized?

    I suppose it is possible that the exommunication has been expunged, even after being rebaptized, however, the only place I can find the claim that the action was expunged is on a blogspot with his name embedded in it.

    http://avrahamgileaditestimony.blogspot.com/

    It seems that if the Church officially decided that the charges against him had been wrong after excommunicating him and forcing him to be rebaptized for readmission, there would be some kind of public apology, or, at the least, a public acknolwedgement of some kind from an official church spokesman.

    Anyway, if you can point us to an authoritative source it would be nice.

    Again, I love the thought that the church later reversed the decision of the church court and expunged the records of the church action, but to me, if the Deseret News article is correct that he was rebaptized several years later, with no official acknowledgement from the church that a serious administrative mistake at any time after that, the claim seems questionable.

    Just sayin

  5. I agree that he is paraphrasing a prophecy of Joseph Smith, however, he is adding to that prophecy the following tagline:

    “You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.”

    If I am understanding what he is saying, he is saying that when the Sign that Joseph taked about, which marks the soon return of Christ, takes place, that same sign will also testify that Snuffer is a true servant of God who has faithfully taught what he was supposed to teach.

    I agree that his statement does not seem to establish any credibility.

    It actually seems nonsensical to me.

    It is like me saying, when the desolation of the last days take place, those desolations will prove that the prophecies about desolations are true, and by the way, they will also be a testimony that my teachings have been inspired by God and that I am his servant.

    I don’t see why such a statement is true or how it proves anything.

    Perhaps I am missing something.

    Perhaps Snuffer or one of his disciples could clarify what the statement actually means or what I am missing in my interpretation of it.

  6. Pearl says:

    I had the same thought about Snuffer’s new star comment. What in the world is he talking about? When the Second Coming is upon his, we’ll know Snuffer was right? Huh?

  7. Fusion says:

    I agree Pearl, Watcher.

    I usually like what Denver has to say and what he seems to be doing. At face value he is getting LDS to get into the scriptures, search for true church history instead of the embellished and trimmed-of-fat version that the people who behind the scenes own and run the Babylonian LDS church have put out for the gullible descendants of Nauvoo, and converts who wouldn’t even imagine in their humble hearts that a group of men could do what they have done.

    I also like his apparent toughness and it seems his latest post is stating rather candidly a very scandalous declaration: that the church corporation offered him money (!!) to stop doing what he is doing…did I read right?!

    http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/compliance-so-far-as-possible.html

    This could turn out to be a MASSIVE turn of events if the right type of media caught wind of it. And a heavy shock to the LDS faithful if this gets exposed further.

    However, regardless of the fact that Denver says he saw the Lord and converses with Him and takes instructions from Him directly, which I am not sold on- as all these guys that make this claim are consistently vague about their experience unlike Nephi, Joseph and others who laid theirs out in no uncertain terms- but will not necessarily judge him on at this point, this statement about the star has me itching my head in incoherence. It makes no sense whatsoever and is gonna leave me with a crater-sized bald patch if I keep trying to itch the glitch!

    Been shamelessly addicted to every one of yours posts, Watcher, even though I never get time to comment on the agreements and disagreements I have, with all the notes I have accrued. Though I am invisible, trust me, this website is one that is priceless to me and I visit at every opportunity. There is just so much in here and it would be an absolute pity if everyone involved with Mormonism and the Restoration don’t sink their teeth into the unique stuff you have written. Can’t wait for more. God bless you in your efforts, my brother.

    Fusion

  8. Thanks for bringing the latest part of this drama to my attention Fusion.

    Very interesting.

  9. Fusion says:

    Well, Watcher, the news is in- Denver got excommunicated. To borrow a phrase from him, it is a ‘tragic ordeal’ for him and his family. I feel for them. But as Dylan Thomas once said, ‘When one burns one’s bridges, what a nice fire one makes’. I couldn’t agree more. May he now rejoice in loosening the chains of bondage from not only his ankles but those of his precious family! If he truly believes in what he testifies of, then the ride from here on should be amazing for him…and perhaps us, if he is indeed telling the truth. I won’t judge him…

    Once again, I don’t necessarily agree with everything Denver says, and have told him so on an occasion or two (email), in addition to being positive about what he does and has done. However, bless his heart for having the guts and determination in sticking with his convictions, and thus stirring up the pot and helping bring to light the corporation behind the corporation that runs the Church of JCoLDS…you know, those who have taken over the reins, packaged the Book of Mormon and pretended that by virtue of ownership of said Book, that they obviously have the Holy Spirit and are true servants of the Lord, in constant communication face to face with him, unbroken from Joseph Smith on. Damn Gadiantons, raking in the tithing billions while the crowds gullibly watch the Emperor parade his New Clothes. They control the membership’s ability to worship (and I say worship lightly, as I believe the LDS temples to be an abomination with that fake endowment that is contained nowhere in the book of Mormon or modern revelation) and do so by having them pay to get into these fake temples, with money being the decisive factor regardless of one’s personal holiness and commitment to Jesus. They have transfigured the Word of the Lord and yet the New Clothes of the Emperor look so appealing yet! Amazing!

    Of course, the membership would know all this for themselves if they actually read the Book of Mormon with the Holy Spirit…instead of dumbly allowing the Gadiantons to ban them from reading the scriptures in the sacrament meetings. The Book of Mormon is got so much in there for us, read it O Lds, please!!

    I hope this leads to the house of cards that is the fake corporation, to fall in a heap and open the way for the Lord to begin His latter day work. It is very interesting to me that Denver’s excommunication was exactly 40 years to the day, a full biblical generation, AND that of all days, it was on the ever ominous Mormon day of September 11th.

    Fusion

  10. JRSG says:

    Regarding what Terryl Givens said – Wow.

    I have a lot of questions reserved to ask in the near future. I know you are busy so I will respect you answering that fits into your time and schedule. I just read one of your articles and I can not sit still. I felt like a bolt of electricity went through me and a light came on in my brain and it also felt like someone slapped me to wake me up. All at the same time. It was awesome!
    Thanks!

  11. OWIW,

    What do you think about this observation regarding the whole blacks were inferior, less worthy, righteous, less valiant in the pre-existence false doctrine? it looks like BY started it and It is demonstrably false because of Moroni 8. As far as I know the scriptures and all church leaders, even BY himself, taught ALL children who die before they turn 8(age of accountability) go to the celestial kingdom, and that means all those unworthy, inferior less valiant and righteous black children too. Millions and millions of them. It seems ludicrous to make the case that any black child who dies before they turn 8 gain exaltation but that if they live longer they aren’t then worthy to hold the priesthood. How do you tell a parent they were good enough to bear a celestial class child but still not worthy enough to hold the priesthood?
    How is that not a huge contradiction which shows how false that doctrine was and why didn’t anybody in the leadership make that connection in that 120yr + shameful period?
    Obviously millions and millions(hundreds of millions probably) of blacks were and always have been worthy to attain exaltation based on moroni 8 and other teachings.
    I haven’t read a whole about the ramifications of that doctrine(children attaining exaltation) in the church but if you do the math that is the biggest group which will attain the celestial kingdom out of all humanity and the numbers dwarf the entire church membership. Likely talking about billions of souls.
    Just wondering if you have given much thought to this?

  12. “How is that not a huge contradiction which shows how false that doctrine was and why didn’t anybody in the leadership make that connection in that 120yr + shameful period?”

    It really is quite shameful. I agree.

    The brethren are in a tough situation because if they acknowledge that serious mistakes and false doctrines have been made and taught be previous leaders, their own current credibility and doctrinal accuracy comes into question, plus, they don’t want to take past presidents of the church off of the pedestal that many members have them on.

    About the closest thing I have seen, that represents a public apology or acknowledgement is the following statement by President Dieter F. Uchtdorf in the last General Conference:

    ““We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question…. “To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”

    While some people think that acknowledgement is a huge event, I find it to be vague and dismissive.

    It is nevertheless, a step in the right direction.

%d bloggers like this: