Reading Abraham While God Winks

I have a had a few commenters ask me about how I feel about the Book of Abraham over the years and I have told them I believe it is an inspired book of scripture that represents exactly what Joseph Smith claimed it represented. Nevertheless I have never taken the time to detail my reasons for my belief…

To read the article, click on the link to see the pdf

Reading Abraham While God Winks

(A few minor but pertinent changes have been made as of 8-16-2012 please refresh this page and re-click on the link. Refreshing the pdf will not update the changes.


27 Responses to Reading Abraham While God Winks

  1. Waiting and Wondering says:

    Once again you have taken my brain out of my head, set it on the chopping block, taken a sledge hammer and SMASHED it to smithereens!

    And I LOVED every minute of it!

    As you might say – Un-freakin-believable!

    This is an amazing post! The Spirit testified to my heart (and tear ducts) that there are deep truths here.

    It is sooo interesting to watch the google apostasy unfold before our eyes.

    There is so much info out there in cyberspace, but so many bloggers who, it feels to me, mostly like to hear the sound of their own voice (or pen, as it were) and to share their own thoughts, grind their own axes or have the thrill of their own “following”.

    But their are so few who rigorously confine their pontifications to the serious study and analysis of GOD’s WORD like you do. (If you or any of your readers can point me toward any comparably worthy sites i would be most grateful – i dont have time to wade through all the nonsense and detritus out there to try and find them). But this, THIS is true spiritual meat!

    I truly believe you are inspired of The Lord and have been given a spiritual gift to help remove the scales from blind Ephraim in preparation for the return of the first laborers.

    I suspect you have had to make some pretty incredible sacrifices to dedicate your life to search and understand God’s word – and I want you to know how grateful I, for one, am for it. You have made the gospel of Jesus Christ not only coherent, but also vibrant, dynamic and exciting again! There is hope for the heathen in (and Children of) Israel!

    Praise The Lord God Of Israel!

    Hurrah for Israel!

    Please don’t wait too long to do the promised follow up post!

    Sent from my iPhone

    • Waiting and Wondering

      Although I can only take personal credit for any innacuracies in the posts, and not for anything that is of value, I still very much appreciate your kind words.

      Thank you


  2. djabty says:

    Some things to consider about D&C 110 (Adapted from PTHG):

    1. It was written by Warren Cowdery in the third person in the back of Joseph Smith’s 1835-1836 journal. It seems as if it was the last entry. Although, there were blank pages after this third person account of the Kirtland Temple experience. This is the only account we have of it. There is no second or third witness (unless the Holy Ghost witnesses to you).

    2. All of the contemporary records of the period never record any mention by Joseph Smith of visitations from Moses, Elias and Elijah.
    3. It was never taught by Joseph Smith. Not even once.

    4. Oliver Cowdery never taught it, mentioned it or wrote about it. Even in Oliver’s final written testimony given on January 13, 1849 he only mentions seeing Moroni, John the Baptist, and Peter, James, and John. It is interesting that he doesn’t say he ever saw Christ let alone Moses, Elias and Elijah.

    Here is his testimony (from

    “While darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people; long after the authority to administer in holy things had been taken away, the Lord opened the heavens and sent forth His word for the salvation of Israel. In fulfillment of the sacred scriptures, the everlasting gospel was proclaimed by the mighty angel (Moroni) who, clothed with the authority of his mission, gave glory to God in the highest. This # gospel is the `stone taken from the mountain without hands.’ John the Baptist, holding the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood; Peter, James and John, holding the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, have also ministered for those who shall be heirs of salvation, and with these administrations, ordained men to the same priesthoods. These priesthoods, with their authority, are now, and must continue to be, in the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Blessed is the elder who has received the same, and thrice blessed and holy is he who shall endure to the end.

    “Accept assurances, dear brother, of the unfeigned prayer of him who, in connection with Joseph the Seer, was blessed with the above ministrations, and who earnestly and devoutly hopes to meet you in the celestial glory.” Oliver Cowdery. To Samuel W. Richards, January 13, 1849.
    Thus, by the foregoing testimony which he bears, as his last written, and virtually his dying testimony, is secured the promise made to him by the Lord in the early part of his career, that “the gates of hell should not prevail against him; and he should be lifted up at the last day.”

    Notice how Oliver is not hiding anything. He uses the term “unfeigned.” It seems he is not trying to hide a secret visitation from Christ, Moses, Elias and Elijah. He is being sincere. I take him at his word.
    5. Oliver Cowdery’s “Kirtland Sketch Book” ends the day before the apperances recorded in D&C 110 even though it also had blank pages left. (PTHG p. 76)

    6. “Joseph referred to Elijah’s return as still future event”. (PTHG p.75) Joseph first mentions the promise of Elijah’s return when telling his history of Moroni’s visit to him in 1823. This was written in 1838. 2 years after the Kirtland experience. Joseph taught in his sermons in the Nauvoo period that Elijah’s return was in the future.
    I believe him.

    7. “We don’t have any reliable way of knowing when Warren Cowdery inserted the account found in the last pages of the journal.” (PTHG p. 76)
    8. We don’t know what source told Warren Cowdery of the event since Joseph and Oliver were the only ones present. (PTHG p. 76)

    9. It “is perhaps significant that Warren Cowdery wrote an article a year later in March, 1837 about these Old Testament prophets. His article refers to Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration witnessing the appearance of Moses and Elias.” (See Messenger and Advocate, March 1837, Vol. 3, No. 30, p. 470.) “So if Joseph and Oliver failed to mention the appearance Moses and Elijah, the scribe who wrote the event displayed an interest in the subject and even some appreciation for the potential doctrinal significance such an event might bring.” (PTHG p. 77)

    10. D&C 110 was unknown in the 1830′s and 1840′s until finally discovered and published in 1852. (PTHG p. 77)

    11. Orson Pratt was the first one to teach that Elijah had returned and affirms that the sealing keys and power were “committed and restored to the earth by Elijah.” to Joseph. (PTHG p. 78)
    God’s word alone confers the sealing power (See Helaman 10:3-10 and D&C 132:46). Also D&C 121 mentions that the rights of the priesthood are connected with powers of heaven. In other words power comes from heaven not men.
    Denver shows that the sealing power was given to Joseph much earlier than 1836. PTHG p. 326-327:
    1. Around 1829 Joseph receives revelation concerning plural wives.
    2. In 1831 Joseph obeyed revelation at considerable personal sacrifice (D&C 132:50)
    3. Following 1831 Joseph’s sacrifice was accepted and his calling and election was confirmed and the Lord granted him the sealing power (D&C 132:46-49). Denver indicates this may have happened on the occasion mentioned in D&C 128:21 which says: And again, the voice of God in the chamber of Father Whitmer . . .)
    4. On Dec. 27 1832 Joseph used the sealing power to seal a group of saints to eternal life (D&C 88:2-5). This required him to be in possession of the sealing power.
    5. April 3, 1836 the events recorded in D&C 110 are said to happen.

    12. The account in D&C 110 never states Elijah gave or committed anything to Joseph and Oliver. Elijah just confirms that the Dispensation keys were in Joseph’s possession. PTHG p. 327
    “Now, if you disagree with history and you are perfectly content with what Orson Pratt bequeathed us as the accompanying commentary when the account was discovered, then you needn’t give this one further thought. There have been generations come and go with that explanation regarded as the absolute truth and the basis for our Temple work. So you’ll be in good company. But there are those serious minded individuals who are trying to sort this out right now at high levels of the Church who know these are important issues which are NOT as settled as the past pronouncements make it appear. In fact, I doubt the current explanations will last much longer because the record simply does not support the conclusions we have urged. The place to start is not after the 1850′s discovery, when there were conclusions leaped to by Orson Pratt which then became the operative explanation thereafter. The place to start is instead from 1836 to 1844 in the records of that time. What was Joseph saying? What was Oliver saying? Why did both of them leave out mention of Elijah in their testimonies of who had come to visit with them? Where did Section 110 come from? That is, who did Warren Cowdery consult with to learn the material he wrote into the book? I work on that in both the book and the talk.” (

    I will add something else. In D&C 110:14, it states that the time has “fully come.” Not partially but fully and yet Joseph kept teaching that Elijah’s return was future. It it had fully come why would Elijah need to come again?

    • Thank you for visiting djabty

      It is great to hear from yet one more disciple of Denver Snuffer.

      I am familiar with all of the quotes you have provided.

      In fact, I have decided to do a post to address this very issue and many more having to do with the things that Denver has taught..

      I am convinced that section 110 it true.

      You obviously have not read many of my posts… Nor have you fully understood the profound implications contained in this post with regard to how the Book of Abraham revealed the term “Gospel of Abraham” and provided its definition one year before the term was declared during the events documented in section 110.

      I suspect I have written more extensively on section 110 and provided more contextual and doctrinal proof of its divine origin than anybody living and I am 100% convinced of its validity.

      For this one reason alone, Denver should either stop the publication of his book or at least publicly admit that he was wrong on that one issue.

      Section 110 is a very serious matter, if you sincerely want to know the truth about it, you may want to read all of the posts on this blog, for many if not most of them provide bits and pieces to understanding that the fulness was rejected in or before 1834 and that section 110 represents a secret intervention and a remedy for the rejection that took place.

      May I suggest that you re-read this post to see what you missed.

      Then, read these two posts

      Then read the series on the Morley Farm beginning with this one

      Then read all of the rest of the posts on this site.

      You will see that Denver arrived at his conclusion through pure human logic and not by revelation.

      He was attempting to find relevance in section 110 based on the interpretation superimposed upon it by the modern church.

      The posts on this blog will actually give you a contextual understanding of what really took place in Kirtland and why the Lord obviously commanded Joseph and Oliver to not reveal what took place behind the veil.

  3. djabty says:

    Thank you for your response Watcher!

    I have really enjoyed reading your posts. They have caused me to question some of my own beliefs regarding certain gospel teachings and having given me some great things and ideas to think and study about. Especially about the errors I was taught growing up in the church. That is a great thing. It is true that I have not read many of your posts. I hope to read all of them. It is not easy to be challenged with one’s beliefs but it is a rewarding journey.
    I was very impressed about the connection between the definition of the gospel of Abraham being revealed in the Book of Abraham before the Kirtland experience. It is very compelling evidence for D&C 110. From what I have read I have never seen where Denver says D&C 110 is untrue. He just brings some interesting considerations to the table that I find very compelling. In fact I have found many similar things taught by both of you. I was just curious about your responses to the issues he raises.
    While I consider myself very inexperienced with the scriptures I am open to new ideas and hope to find the truth for myself as I study the scriptures diligently. I hope not to be a disciple of Denver or you but to be a disciple of The Lord. Where I have faltered I hope to repent. Your kind rebuke has given me even a greater desire to find these things out for myself.

    Thank you much. I appreciate it!

    • djabty

      I certainly don’t want you to be a “follower” of me. That is a burden that I don’t want and don’t need. I simply want to share what I have found and believe to be true.

      The bottom-line of course is that each of us need to search the scriptures and take the Holy Ghost as our guide.

      I noticed that the exact same copy that you put in my comments section was put in the comments sections of another blog post and I assume that was you that put those comments there. Perhaps you have done your missionary work on numerous other blogs as well.

      If that is true, that would indicate to me that you are heavily invested in the writings and teachings of Denver Snuffer and you are attempting to do some PR for his beliefs.

      I would hope that you would “find these things out for [yourself]” before spending much energy promoting them to others.

      Thank you for visiting.

      I hope the Lord showers you with the answers to your questions.

      I love your passion and am praying for you.


  4. djabty says:

    Yes I did post the exact comment on the LDS anarchy site, but I thought that that article was written by you and I discovered the mistake after. So I decided to go to a website that I knew was for sure by you. I am relatively new to the blogosphere and have only posted maybe 5 or so comments before. I am still getting used to this stuff.

  5. Ryan says:

    I was studying in the Book of Abraham today. In Moses we read of the physical creation and in Abraham 4-5 we read about the spiritual creation.

    Here’s my question…

    In Abraham 3 we read that we were present in a counsel where they discussed taking materials to create a world.

    However if Abraham 4-5 is a record of a true spiritual creation. What are we to understand about the spiritual creation of man?

    Who was being created? Weren’t we already spiritually formed as Abr. 3: 23-24 imply or were we only intelligences awaiting a spirit as Abr. 3:22 implies?

    • Ryan-

      You said:

      “In Moses we read of the physical creation and in Abraham 4-5 we read about the spiritual creation.

      Actually, I would interpret Abra 4-5 as the physical creation, not the spiritual creation. All of the intelligences had been organized as of Abra 3:22:

      the intelligences that were organized before the world

      The Book of Moses (Inspired Version of Genesis) is also primarily about the physical creation however it provides the first documentation of the spiritual creation that we have, which came several years before the BofA:

      5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

      Who was being created? Weren’t we already spiritually formed as Abr. 3: 23-24 imply or were we only intelligences awaiting a spirit as Abr. 3:22 implies?

      It is my opinion that we had all been spiritually created as of Abr 3:22-24. Those passages actually mention “spirits” and “souls” that were involved in the council. Both spirits and souls are organized intelligences. I believe that the terms spirits in those passages is referring to those who had been spiritually organized and awaiting an earthly probationary experience.

      Those that were souls very possibly had been to a previous probation and had physical bodies and would fit the definition of an “angels”. If D&C 129:1 is accurate, Jesus Christ would be defined as an angel, as well as a God. If in fact the definition of the term “souls” is consistent with the way the definition of soul is in the D&C then these organized beings are angels. If the passages are using the BofM definition of soul then they could have also been spirits but it would be odd for these terms to be used interchangeably plus, there are other passages in the BofA text that seem to verify the same definition as the D&C.

      One could also argue that the “souls” mentioned in Abra 3 are possibly also the “gods” (with a minor “g”) that participated in the creation process in Abra 4 & 5. It is very possible that the BofA is providing the promised answer to the following question in D&C 121

      God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;
      27 Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory;
      28 A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.

      While the text in The BofA designates Father Abraham as a spirit in the pre-existence, I am open to the possibility that there could have been some of the “souls” that came down to perform major functions. If Father Adam was an arch angel in the preexistence, then he would be a good example. Elijah/John the Baptist is another interesting person that also might have been a soul in the preexistence…

      All of this is just my opinion for today and subject to change at any time without notice. If I misunderstood your question please let me know. If any other readers have an opinion to share please feel free. 🙂

  6. Ryan says:

    Dang it! You’re right about Moses. I knew that too. I have it marked in my scriptures as such. I didn’t even bother to go to Moses I just jumped right in to Abraham with the rest of the GD class at church today.

    Totally on me. Cardinal Sin #1 – Never take the GD teacher’s word at face value. Always verify 🙂

    Anyway, good catch and interesting thoughts about The BofA.

  7. JennyP1969 says:

    Excellent comments to ponder. I was wondering if spirits can progress to the level of spirit angels, even spirit gods before coming to earth to receive a body. From that point a person begins progressing again, outside the presence of the gods and God, toward various levels of progression more fulfilling(?) than pre-mortal progression BECAUSE it is done outside diety’s presence and with a body subject to a fallen world?

    If so, how regrettable if we progressed quite well before and did not here, and then learned of a more exact “fallen” state. It’s worth trying to do better and be better every day of our lives… any estate.

    So much to learn. So little time.

  8. JennyP1969 says:

    In other words, was our existence before Earth a full and exact spiritual run of our existence from birth here to exaltation?

    • Now that is a pretty deep thought to ponder Jenny. I have wondered about that also. I have wondered if it was all predetermined and we are simply going through the motions in a second estate just to progress into a physical body.

      In fact, I have have wondered if perhaps in the preexistence we could all see the final outcome and perhaps that is why a rebellion took place among those of darker spirit matter and lesser light, who could see that the Father’s plan would not end well for them…

      Lots to speculate about… and so little time to do it. LOL

  9. Ryan says:


    That reminds me of a reoccurring dream I used to have when I was 5 or so.

    I was in heaven and everyone, the whole human family, were assigned their places and we lived and went through the motions of that plan.

    For some reason I always ended up in Australia. I didn’t even know what Australia was. I was just in a desert looking place on the upside down part of the world. LOL.

    I often wonder if that’s what we call déjà vu. It’s God’s way of letting us know we’re on the right path.

  10. Wondering says:

    Interesting comment Watcher. If God exists “outside of time” (and, ergo, all time, past, present and future is clearly before him), then wouldn’t those who dwell with God exist in that same sphere? The whole idea of God existing “outside of time” and “seeing the end from the beginning” throws a pretty big “monkey wrench” into the Church’s standard teachings about fore-ordination vs. pre-destination. I remember reading Jesus the Christ a hundred years ago and Talmage arguing that God knows what you are going to do because he knows your character and sees your path, etc., so with all his data he can essentially “predict” with 100% accuracy what you will do, but it doesn’t affect your agency. But if he really is “outside” of time and sees all time as one, then WE ALREADY HAVE exercised our agency and made our choices – He knows the end from the beginning. So, perhaps pre-destination and agency are not mutually exclusive. Apropos of that, I would love to see a post on your views on Pre-destination.

    • “The whole idea of God existing “outside of time” and “seeing the end from the beginning” throws a pretty big “monkey wrench” into the Church’s standard teachings about fore-ordination vs. pre-destination.”

      Yes indeed.

      It is interesting how the church tries so hard to discount predestination in favor of fore-ordination, yet Joseph did not alter the passages in the Bible that clearly teach predestination.

      I have intentionally avoided doing a post on it because I don’t see a lot of good coming from it. It is what it is.

      People often react poorly to the concept so I leave it alone.

      Some want to give up trying.

      Granted, if the doctrine is true, there is no harm that teaching it can do, that will change the ultimate outcome.. nevertheless, there are so many passages of scriptures that suggest that all options are open and that we need to all be vigilant and reaching out to others and motivating others etc., etc. Obviously all options are open, but that doesn’t mean that the end hasn’t been seen from the beginning.

      One of the things that is frustrating to me is how people assume that we have no agency if predestination is true. I don’t agree with that. And I am not aware of how they arrive at that conclusion.

      The fact that God knows the beginning from the end and that he has seen what choices a person will make before they make them, doesnt mean that they did not have the agency to make the choices.

      The same is true if, in the pre-existence, we all saw our own ultimate end at the judgment. Seeing something before it happens does not mean that agency was taken away. It simply means that one is able to transcend the limitations of temporal time to see the result of how we will use our agency.

      The fact that our lives here on this earth have been predetermined based on decisions we made in the pre-existence does not mean that we did not have agency in the pre-existence or that we no longer have it when we get to this estate.

      We can go back one step further and accept the reality that the choices a person made in the pre-existence and in mortality are the result of how much faith and light their organized intelligence has and we can go back one more step further and realize that the amount of faith and light an organized intelligence has is possibly determined by which part of existence God obtained the unorganized intelligence from to organize the intelligence.

      In other words, there is probably telestial and terrestrial and celestial intelligences in the universe as well as sop intelligence that has no inherent light in it and the raw unorganized material that God organizes may well be the determining factor of what the end result will be.

      Realizing that there must be an opposition in all things for the plan of salvation to work, God organizes all different types of intelligences.

  11. JennyP1969 says:

    Ryan….yes, the déjà vu thing happened to me quite often while I was a child. So much so that I frequently told my family or friends what someone was going to say next. The one speaking wasn’t aware of my telling another person what he or she was going to say. It always jazzed my sibling or whoever when I did this. By the time I was 20 I foresaw events, like knowing we were going to come upon a car accident. One time I even knew there was going to be a VW Bug involved — a yellow one. But one day on my way to work, I saw a firefighter plane trying to land at our small airport, but it crashed and burned. By the time I got to work at the hospital I was pretty upset and wanted to call the airport to tell them not to let that plane land in the wind until it shifted. My boss thought I was nuts, of course, and ordered me to get to work. When the call came in a while later that they were bringing two burn victims in from a crash at the airport, she looked at me like I was a witch or something. Good thing it wasn’t Boston in the 1700’s, eh?

    I was so upset at seeing bad things I couldn’t stop that I prayed to not see them any more. And I didn’t. But good things and fun things went away, too. I threw away a spiritual gift.

    Anyway, I believe agency is hallowed and never denied by God. I believe He sees everything we do with our agency. We are in charge of our lives and destinies. Given our circumstances of birth, our cultures, traditions of our parents, physical health, we are sure to make predictable choices. But they are still ours to make, or not.

    Predestination is a hopeless doctrine of victimization and captivity. Foreordination is rather elitist and condescending to me. It can make many people feel “us chosen” and small. And that affects their choices, usually in negative ways. I’d rather just believe in the hope and gift of choice, which speaks to freedom and hope to become ALL that we choose over time. I’d rather act than merely react. And act upon rather than only be acted upon. The “ordinations” that never come within the church are choices made by imperfect men, so I’m not sure how well it all works. Yet, I believe God sees and knows it all.

    Surely, we drive Him crazy….

    Freedom to choose life, love, learning, overcoming, forgiving, uplifting, sharing, giving, growing, trying, recovering, healing, faith, and on and on is everything. I remember “seeing” the fruits of these things from “somewhere before” when I was little. But it would have been way cool to see Australia! That’s amazing!

    Sorry, I kinda mixed my comment with you and Watcher, and maybe even a bit of Wondering. Goodness… agency wanders all around. 😉

  12. Fabledsog says:

    I have been holding a peculiar puzzle piece for quite some time, I believe it is one of the biggest and clueful insights in how the Lord designs the intricacies of mankind and its relation to time, which also so happens to support the ministries of the inscribed patriarchs. But I have been wary to comment about it, since it really makes one realize that their life is not so unique after all.

    For me it has humbled me to understand that the aspect of the Lord being no respecter of persons is very true indeed. Since realizing that my time spent on earth is short in comparison with places and people I have yet to remember, and that my current consciousness is just a shadow of my eternal being in sanctified worlds I cannot number. I have realized that the inscribed patriarchs are unfathomably experienced to get to their current seats of honor. At one point in a different time they had memorable patriarchs of their own to look up to in times like these.

    To somewhat understand where I am coming from, and it is best not to assume that I view the world akin to certain philosophies of men spreading around, even though there may be some commonality; as this is coming from someone who believes the universe is literally inside the bosom of the Lord, hence the critical need for a new heaven(space) and earth.

    I want to play guess how with a certain passage that has made me really appreciate the divine knowledge that the Spirit of prophecy possesses; even if I cant fully understand the implications of prophecy and how it overshadows mans agency unto himself, (which I won’t go into great detail, but to me it is not considered “free agency”, and different than free will but interdependent of the same which I believe is dependent of the fulness of gospel to actually be in effect.) Since if a person or people has the power to change the outcome of prophecy set in stone, then salvation in Christ is not very secure, because every word of said prophecy must be fulfilled.

    9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
    10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
    (Old Testament | Isaiah 51:9 – 10)

    Who is it that this passage calls to? Is it the Lord? It could be, but not literally, as the Lord does not need to awake, or even put on strength, and this passage alludes that the person is actually a ancient of our current time frame. Is it Moses? I don’t think so, since the wounding of the dragon hasn’t even happened yet, seems familiar to the notorious chapter of Revelation of that particular beast, that I realized John described to be pretty much a dragon also, the second a satyr, both which I believe to not be some poor saps, but the adversary himself.

    And so the wounding of the draconic beast by the sword, that has already happened, but hasn’t happened yet. My what a riddle! I don’t deny that it alludes to the downfall of ancient Egypt, but I expect to hear about a more literal fulfillment in the near future, by who? Why Moses of course! Now why Moses? Because this passage reads to me that the suffering servant who just happens to be the one like unto Moses, is the one that this passage directs to. This passage implies to me that the one like unto Moses, in the past earth before this one, was Moses. Confused yet?

    It also seems to me that the first few verses of D&C 35, alludes to a former ministry in a past world. And I have sensed a pattern, that there are two types of men of God, the warrior, and the wanderer. The warrior, the Eliases, such as the choice seer, Moses, and Abraham, the wanderer, the Elijahs, such as the choice spokesman, Elijah, and Noah. Oops did I just imply that Abraham would be like Moses in a distinct time to come.

    If my long winded brief postulation ends up being plausible, then the needed salvation of the suffering servant which this passage firmly presents, is just as important as the origination of the servant’s existence, that is alarming, what if he chose not to take his part in the redemption of Israel, which would foil the numerous prophecies, making God a liar. As much as I don’t want to admit, ones choices are based on others choices, choices eventually over time, become predictable. It makes one really realize that God’s will, and God’s commandments are not always inseparable, I mean Genesis pretty much squashes that sentiment right off the bat. So would I prefer the choices with determining factors, or the choices with random consequences, obviously the former. Because I believe that over many timelines, we all find joy and peace in the glory and kingdom of our divine creator, even our current enemies. The Judgment at the last day is not end all be all for me, but a new beginning to start fresh however the Lord chooses to do so on a new earth in a new heaven not yet corrupted, in addition to the rest place of eternity that this earth will provide, as she is born again. Man; the fragments of time and eternity. How can man ever expect to define God, when he can’t even define himself to the utmost satisfaction.

  13. Ryan says:

    Watcher had you read this?

    It comes from Greg Smith’s rebuttals to PTHG.

    W. W. Phelps, who wrote his wife:

    On Sunday, April 3, the twelve held meeting and administered the sacrament. It was a glorious time. The curtains were dropt in the afternoon. And There was a manifestation of the Lord to Br Joseph and Oliver, [by?] which they [learned?] thus the great & terrible day of the Lord as mentioned by Malachi, was near, even at the doors.

    Quoted from: William W. Phelps to Sally Phelps, 1–6 April 1836, William Wines Phelps Papers, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT, quoted in John W. Welch, Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844 (Provo, UT: BYU Press; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2005), 349.

    So it wasn’t a secret, meaning more than just Warren knew about it?

    • Yes I did read it and found it very interesting, and I take my hat off to Smith for scouring hard and long enough to find that little tidbit, however, in my opinion it proves the supposition that God had commanded Joseph and Oliver to keep quiet about the significant things that happened.

      To me it proves that Joseph and Oliver were tight lipped even to their closest confidants.

      First of all, it is interesting that with all of the scouring that Smith did, he could only dig up one or two minor things that the BYU thesis had not captured.

      Now, think about it. If you itemize all of the amazing earth-shaking things that happened in the content provided in Section 110, from Christ accepting the temple, to providing an amazing prophecy about how the work would begin from the temple, to the Lord standing above the Ark of the Testimony with the song of Moses in it, testifying about the sins of latter day Israel, to the keys of the gathering being committed by Moses, to the committing of the Gospel of Abraham, to the declaration by Elijah that the prophecy of Malachi had been fulfilled, it is shocking to me that the most significant thing that Phelps could pass on to Sally was that the Lord gave a manifestation to Joseph and Oliver and that the great and terrible day of the Lord was near!

      Why did Joseph withhold all of the really really important stuff?

      The scriptures that had been revealed for years before that event had been warning the Saints that the day of the Lord was near. The fact that the day of the Lord was near was pretty much yesterdays news. Why would Joseph only throw out one tiny little crumb to Phelps and withhold everything else that really was so much more profound, and that in fact, was necessary to know in order to explain why the crumb that was thrown out, was important.

      In my opinion, the fact that Phelps could only share with his wife that a visitation had taken place and that the great and dreadful day was near, shows that Joseph and Oliver were intentionally withholding information from Phelps and others because they had been commanded to withhold information.

      Nevertheless, it does represent a significant piece of historical evidence as far as proving that Snuffer’s characterization is wrong about the event never taking place. But it also supports the supposition that the Lord had told J and O to keep quiet about the juicy stuff.

      Nice catch Ryan

      How many hours a day do you surf the Internet reading all of the stuff you comment on? I am concerned that you and Fusion have too much time on your hands. LOL

  14. Ryan says:


    To be honest I spent less than 15 minutes today searching and reading.

    I’m really good when it comes to searches and I use Siri on my iPhone to read the text to me at about 750 words a minute.

    Time is scarce between work and playing with my kids so I leverage technology when I can.

    The cool thing is that I can listen to a whole long post and all the comments while driving to work as Siri reads it to me. 😉

    Thank you for the concern. Truthfully, this can be addicting with the thought that the is SO much to learn and study.

    I just take it one day at a time.

    I was going to ask about verse 9.

    9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house. (D&C 110:9)

    Is the endowment in this verse speaking about the washings that were performed in the school of the prophets in the 3rd floor or some other future endowment.

    I got the idea from listening to the Lyman Wight post this morning on my commute. 🙂

    • I don’t think that the anointings that took place Jan 21-27 are the same as endowments. I think they are preparatory to the endowments. There were a few elders that had spiritual manifestations during that time and those spiritual manifestation could be considered “endowments” based on what the true definition of “endowment” is.

      I am of the opinion that verse nine in the case of Joseph and Oliver may have included what was actually taking place behind the veil. Joseph and Oliver were receiving an endowment of knowledge and priesthood and it may have been in fulfillment to the following promise made at Zions Camp in June of 1834:

      Verily I say unto you, it is expedient in me that the first elders of my church should receive their endowment from on high in my house, which I have commanded to be built unto my name in the land of Kirtland.

      Keep in mind that J and O were the first and second elders of the church and they were referred to as the first elders of the church.

      Gosh, there is one more contextual evidence for the veracity of section 110 from section 105! Are you keeping track of all of these Denver?

      On a larger scale, the Savior may well have been referring, in 110:9, to the endowments that took place, as Daniel says, “in the middle of the week”, on Wednesday March 30th 1836, when 300 of the ordained priesthood brethren participated in the long awaited “Solemn Assembly“.

      Unlike the dedicatory prayer on March 27, which was a pentecostal “no-show”, the Solemn Assembly was full of spiritual endowments. According to Karl Anderson, “Probably more spiritual outpourings occurred in this meeting than in any other recorded meeting in Kirtland

      — Mar 30, 1836
      Joseph Smith washes the feet of the Quorum of Twelve, “it was expedient for us to prepare bread and wine sufficient to make our hearts glad . . . Tubs water and towels were prepared . . . and then the Twelve proceed to wash the feet of the Presidents of the several quorums. . . .The bread and wine were then brought in, and I observed that we had fasted all the day. . . The brethren continued exhorting, prophesying, and speaking in tongues until 5 o’clock in the morning. The Savior made His appearance to some, while angels ministered to others, and it was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed, long to be remembered.”

    • Ryan

      I have made some additional comments regarding the question you asked about the endowments mentioned in 110:9


  15. JennyP1969 says:

    Watcher……I’ve been wondering if ALL the servants of ALL the dispensations are coming back for the marvelous work? I’m pretty sure they are.

    • It seems to me that those of the first watch do. Everyone that hasn’t been joined to the city of Enoch probably participates in the last great missionary work and work of establishing Zion. Even the City of Enoch will eventually meet Zion from below in the air.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: