“..from him shall be taken even the light which he has received”

20 Transfigured Doctrines

I have been working on a paper that breaks the 15 year public ministry of the prophet Joseph Smith into five very specific, definable and revealing time periods.

It contains historical and scriptural documentation to demonstrate exactly what took place during those periods of time and ultimately, why the current state of the corporate latter day church is in the condition it is in.

Although much of this information has been covered in bits and pieces in previous blog posts, this paper will provide additional documentation and also provide live links to all articles that covered each topic covered in the paper.

In conjunction with this religious-historical timeline of the LDS restoration movement, I have identified 20 major, foundational doctrines that were taught between 1829 and the latter part of 1836.

The paper addresses how every single one those foundational doctrines have since been transfigured at some point in time between the end of 1836 and our present time in 2011.

There are several reasons I am using 1836/1837 as the dividing line for when the true doctrines began being transfigured.

One is that even though the Lord told the Saints in 1834 that they had already been given sufficient time to redeem Zion by that date and would need to wait a little season before they could live the laws of Zion and redeem Zion, he had previously promised them that they would have priesthood blessings and protection and the opportunity to repent in Kirtland until the appointed time of September 11th 1836

Another reason for choosing 1836/1837 as the tipping point for when the original truths began to be corrupted has to do with the ominous pronouncement from the Lord in section 112 that-

all flesh has become corrupt before my face“.

That pronouncement was essentially the same one made in JST Genesis 8 when the Lord observed that all flesh had become corrupt.

Beginning with that pronouncement in the Old Testament, He gave the world a set time of 120 years in which to listen to the preaching of Noah and repent or be destroyed by water-

The earth was corrupt before God; and it was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence, and behold, I will destroy all flesh from off the earth. Make thee therefore, an ark..”

The scriptures then inform us that the existing flesh on the earth that had become corrupted would have 120 years to repent before the rain began falling and the floods destroyed all living things.

Interestingly, the ark seems to be a type of the chambers or holy places that the righteous will be commanded to gather into when the servants return to give the final warning in the last days.. and the floods that covered the earth in the days of Noah are a type of the fire that will consume the earth in the latter days.

Additionally, the city of Enoch is also a type of what will happen to the elect after they have gathered and consecrated. Once they have repented and received the fulness of the gospel that was previously rejected, they will be caught up to meet the Lord and the city of Enoch in the cloud while the inhabitants of the earth are destroyed by fire, just as the wicked were destroyed by water in the days of Noah.

I don’t know if I will ever get the paper completed, and I’m not anxious about it since this research is mainly for my own edification and ability to easily reference my other posts by topic, however if any of you would like to see it when and if it gets finished, feel free to respond with you email address and I will send the document to you when it is done. My blog has the moderation feature and I will not publish you email address.

Since the paper may not be completed anytime soon, I thought I would share a few details of the paper at this time.

The general five part time-line break down is provided in the graphic below-

Again, I am not going to provide the detailed documentation pertaining to each of these time periods at this time, it will be contained in the finished paper. (although anyone who has read my blogs will not have a difficult time understanding the significance of each designated time period.)

The graphic does not mean to imply that the 111 revelations that were received prior to September 11th of 1836 are true revelations and the 14 revelations received after that period of time are false.

I believe that virtually all of the revelations received by Joseph Smith during his life that are consistent with all previous revelations and that were published or canonized during his life are true. (not just the canonized ones, but all of the published ones)

The above time-line is a testimony to the long suffering of God and how he continues to labor with his apostate people for a season even after they have corrupted themselves.

It had previously been prophesied, in the book of Commandments, and in other published but un-canonized revelations, that the saints would have a future opportunity for a reformation. I believe that opportunity came in Nauvoo.

Had they done so, they would have ushered
in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

I simply showed the number of revelations that were received during each period of time, in the graphic, to illustrate the flow of revelation during each segment of the 15 year ministry.

In all fairness, the revelations were probably slowing down, not only because of the darkness that was covering the minds of the people and their unwillingness to accept truth, but also because the light and knowledge necessary in laying the initial foundation of the Marvelous Work had been given, primarily within the first seven years when the initial appointed time frame for redeeming Zion was to take place.

Why have you Transfigured the Holy Word of God

A Book of Mormon prophet gasped when he saw in vision that the saints of the restored church would change the pure truths revealed by God through his prophets pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God.

Although I have known that many of the original doctrines have been changed for a long time, it is only within the last few years that I have actually come to realize just how pervasive this transfiguration of God’s holy word has really been.

After studying this topic in more detail, I now feel as if virtually every single doctrine and ordinance that was originally revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith has been changed… including the most important doctrines pertaining to the nature and character of God that reveal who and what we worship.

From them shall be Taken Away
Even that which they have

The following passages of scripture indicate that once an enlightened people reject the truth, not only does the Lord stop revealing additional truths, he even takes away the previous truths that have already been revealed-

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts. 2nd Nephi 28

This amazing truth is addressed again in Alma-

“..he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”
(Alma 12)

We are reminded in modern revelation that the wrath of God will be poured out upon the wicked without measure because his spirit shall not always strive with man-

“Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.

8 And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious;

9 Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—

10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

..he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received, for my spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of hosts.”

As you can see, the Lord reiterates in modern revelation that if the saints did not repent, the previous light they had been given would be taken away.

Also, did you catch another parallel pertaining to the time of Noah and our own? In the same passages in Genesis when God observes that all flesh has become corrupt, he warns that his spirit shall not always strive with man-

the Lord said unto Noah, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he shall know that all flesh shall die, yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years; and if men do not repent, I will send in the floods upon them”

How interesting that in modern revelation God makes the same general observations and pronouncements that he made in the time of Noah-

  • All flesh has become corrupt
  • My spirit shall not always strive with men
  • If men do not repent I will send floods/fire upon them

This is a fascinating concept where the light and truth that has been given must be taken away if it is rejected.

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away..
(God uses his seers the revealed the truth to take the truth aways)

If God reveals the truth to his saints through his anointed seers, and the people reject the truth, exactly how does God take the truth away from the people?

Have you ever wondered about that?

The answer to that is found in the Book of Mormon and JST versions of Isaiah 29:

For behold, all ye that doeth iniquity, stay yourselves and wonder, for ye shall cry out, and cry; yea, ye shall be drunken but not with wine, ye shall stagger but not with strong drink.

For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.”

Speaking of the Seers whose eyes are covered by the Lord because of the transgression of the saints, Isaiah informs us the “priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink..”

They “err in vision and stumble in judgment”

Using similar terminology, section one prophesies that when the Lord’s weak and simple servants “erred”, “it might be made known”.

“And in as much as they sinned, they might be chastened that they might repent”.

We have already covered the prophesies in Zechariah and other Old Testament passages that speak of the return and repentance of God’s latter day servants in the 3rd watch. At that time, they will restore the light and knowledge that they had previously restored and then taken away from the saints when God covered their eyes.

There you have it, Isaiah informs us that at the time when the first portion of the sealed book comes forth, there are seers on the earth that bring a portion of the record forth.

Those seers that bring forth the first portions of the book of Mormon thereafter have their eyes closed by the Lord because of the wickedness of the saints. At that time the Lord pours out a spirit of deep sleep upon the saints and their seers.

I realize that it is almost incomprehensible to consider the possibility that God used such men as Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (who were both  sustained as prophets and seers in the 1836 solemn assembly) to eventually transfigure the original true doctrines that those men had been so instrumental in bringing forth.

I will not provide the detailed documentation for each of the doctrines I am going to list at this time. I will simply give you the listing of doctrines that have been transfigured. I leave it to you to do your own research to determine  which doctrines are true and which are false.

You decide if my supposition is correct or false and if in fact the original teaching of the LDS restoration movement are the true teachings.

You can decide for yourself how and when the true and false doctrines were introduced into the church.

Some of these doctrines on the list have been transfigured in relatively recent times by leaders such as Joseph Fielding Smith.

Others were transfigured in the early Utah period of the church by Brigham Young.

Some, however, were transfigured in the later Nauvoo years by Joseph Smith himself.

Again, I have known for decades that the church has been infested with false doctrines. Indeed I have a long list of church leaders from Brigham Young, to Joseph Fielding Smith, to Ezra Taft Benson who have acknowledged this fact. However I did not realize just how pervasive the problem was or how early it began until recent years.

I always realized that the Book of Mormon was including the very first generation of the latter day saints in the rebuke for transfiguring the holy word of God, but I had assumed it was only referring to the lay members, I just couldn’t accept that it was including the first laborers of the last kingdom in that ominous observation.

Just as recently as the last year or two I have come to the painful realization that the Image of God that I have been worshiping all of my life is really just a false image of God that has been created by the imagination of uninspired men .

I inherited this image of God from the false traditions of my fathers.

The image of God that I had, originated from the transfigured doctrines, not from the original pure doctrines.

I grew up loving the King Follett Sermon that Joseph Smith gave in Nauvoo. To me, it was the epitome of what differentiated Mormonism from apostate Christianity.

I am going to be a God someday I thought to myself!

But was it not the desire to exalt himself that got Satan thrown out of heaven?

I loved the concept of the progression of the Gods and the possibility that I might become a Savior of a world and the fact that God the Father was once a mortal man like myself.

I loved knowing that God the Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones and that I will one day be a “God the Father”. (I am not saying we cannot become begotten Sons of God, I am simply saying that their will always be a distinction between the “begotten Sons of God” and “unbegotten” Father.

Conversely, I have also always loved the Lectures on Faith that Joseph and Sidney gave in Kirtland, although I have struggled over the years to wrap my mind around some of the concepts in it.

It is only recently that I realized that many of the doctrines taught in Lectures on Faith and the doctrines taught in the King Follett Sermon are diametrically opposed to each other. (They cannot both be true)

If you will carefully compare Lectures on Faith with the King Follett Sermon, I think you will see what I am talking about.

This realization has helped me to understand and appreciate the true doctrine of salvation and nature of God, taught in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon and distinguish it from the doctrine of exaltation that crept into the church during the Nauvoo period.

It has also sobered me up about my desire to exalt myself in the eternities.

I have come to the conclusion that either Joseph and Sidney were confused and deceived when they taught the Lectures on Faith in the school of the prophets prior to 1835, or, Joseph taught some industrial strength false doctrine during the Nauvoo era.

Of course, the fruits of Lectures on Faith is that several of the elders who believed those teachings during the Kirtland period were actually seeing God the Father and the only begotten Son and testifying that the Father was a glorified personage of spirit that was a consuming fire and that the Son was a personage of fleshly tabernacle.

Conversely, nobody during the Nauvoo era was having the heavens opened to them.

This brings us to the old argument of whether Joseph 1) began the restoration movement making lots of doctrinal errors that needed to be corrected later on in Nauvoo when he gained greater truth and light, or 2) if he started with truth and light and then became darkened in his mind after the saints rejected the truth that he revealed.

We must ask ourselves this question- did the most inspired doctrines come in the first seven years or the second seven years of Joseph’s ministry?

I have made my views on this abundantly clear in previous posts, I now provide a listing of transfigured doctrines for you to study and formulate your own opinions on.

This has created no small degree of indigestion for me, realizing that perhaps, God, in his infinite wisdom, covered the eyes of the seers and used Joseph and others to take away the original truths about the Godhead that they had previously revealed.

Again, in this post I am going to provide a partial listing of 20 of the true doctrines that were originally taught during the first years of the LDS restoration movement. Each one of them will be followed by the transfigured doctrine that is currently believed and taught by many leaders and members of the church today.

I am NOT going to provide all of the documentation that I have to show why one doctrine is true and the other is false. That information will be contained in the finished document.

I simply thought you would enjoy being able to see the difference between what was being taught in the early church up to September 11th 1836 vs the last seven or eight years and beyond, even up today.


Remember, every doctrine classified below as the “Original Doctrine” was taught sometime prior to September 11th 1836. Every doctrine classified as “Transfigured Doctrine”, was taught sometime after September 11th 1836.

Listing of Original and Transfigured Doctrines

  1. God the Father: Original Doctrine- God is a glorified personage of spirit, even a consuming fire. One of the major differentiating attributes between the Father and Son is that, unlike the Father, the Son is a personage of tabernacle (element or flesh) Transfigured Doctrine– God has a separate glorified body of flesh and bones like the Son.
  2. Jesus Christ: Original Doctrine– Christ is the only begotten of the Father and he created all past and future worlds and atoned for all past and future worlds. (that is what an infinite and eternal atonement is) Transfigured Doctrine- each of us that become “exalted” will become an Adam God then a Christ God that creates and atones for the worlds we create and then eventually we will become the Father of our own Godhead.
  3. The Holy Ghost: Original Doctrine- The Holy Ghost is a spirit essence and is the mind of God and is not a personage of spirit or tabernacle. Transfigured Doctrine– The Holy Ghost is a personage and was in a temporal probation at the time of Joseph Smith
  4. The Godhead (Trinity): Original Doctrine– The Father and Son constitute the two personages in the Godhead while the Father, Son and Holy Ghost constitute the Godhead. Although each of these entities have separate and distinct features, and can manifest themselves independently, they jointly and synergistically constitute the ONLY TRUE GOD and they dwell in each other and there is no God besides them. These three distinct entities each provide a separate and distinct function within THE DIETY. Transfigured Doctrine– The majority of the church membership now believe that the three members of the Godhead are separate entities and that there are many other independent Gods (and Godheads) just like them… and that all of the righteous will become Gods and part of other Godheads. (A smaller segment of the church has taken the view that Christ is the only God… he is both the Father and the Son, never acting as two distinct personages.)
  5. The infinite knowledge of God: Original Doctrine- God has all knowledge and there is not anything that he does not know. According to Lectures on Faith, it is impossible to have the faith necessary to life and salvation if one does not believe that God knows all things. Transfigured Doctrine– God is still learning. (this was taught by our beloved Brigham Young and others)
  6. Jesus is our Father NOT our Brother: Original Doctrine- Jesus is the Father of the heavens and the earth. He was the only begotten Son from the beginning and he was part of the Godhead during our pre-existence. Transfigured Doctrine– Christ was one of our spirit brothers in the pre-existence who came to earth as a mortal messiah.
  7. Christ had a Glorified Body of Flesh BEFORE his earthly ministry and is an unchangeable being:
    Original Doctrine– Christ was an immortal personage of fleshly tabernacle BEFORE he came in the meridian of time to atone for our sins. Transfigured Doctrine– Christ took on a physical body for the first time when he came to earth in the meridian of time.
  8. Christ was an IMMORTAL MESSIAH: Original Doctrine– Christ did not have mortal blood. Human blood cannot atone for the sins of other humans. Christ was an immortal God with immortal blood when he hung on the cross. Transfigured Doctrine– Christ was mortal/human just like us. He provided mortal blood to provide an infinite atonement.
  9. The Doctrine of the knowledge God (otherwise known as Lectures on Faith): Original Doctrine– It was originally taught that one needed to have a correct doctrinal foundation in order to correctly interpret the covenants provided in the modern revelations. For that reason, the “Lectures on Faith”, which was inspired of God, were canonized as scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants as the Doctrine part of the Doctrine and Covenants. It provided the foundation for understanding the revelations from God. Transfigured Doctrine– The Lectures on Faith have some good information but is not to be considered scripture. Conflicting teaching from the King Follett discouse are accepted instead of the sacred doctrines in LoF. Eventually the Lectures on Faith was taken from the D&C because it conflicted with the King Follett Sermon and the doctrines taught in section 132 and 130 (which were both cannonized by Brigham Young without a revelation to do so.)
  10. Salvation vs Exaltation: Original Gospel– The ultimate salvation was to become a Son of God and becoming equal with Christ and to spend eternity praising and glorifying and worshipping God and doing his will. Transfigured Gospel– We can also become Savior’s of our own worlds and atone for them and eventually become Just like God the Father.
  11. The Testimony of Jesus: Original Gospel– Originally the testimony of Jesus, categorically had to be obtained by seeing Jesus with the definition of testimony provided by the event documented in section 76. Transfigured Gospel– Now you only need to get a testimony from the “promptings” of the Holy Ghost.
  12. The Dispensation of the Fulness of Times:
    Original Doctrine- The Church of Christ was restored under the dispensation of the last times and was hoping to usher in the dispensation of the fullness of times when the highest priesthood was restored at the Morley Farm. After that failure, the next attempt was to take place after the completion of the Nauvoo Temple… another failure.  Instead of ushering in the fulness of times, the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham was secretly ushered in. Transfigured Doctrine– The church now falsely teaches that we are living in the dispensation of the fullness of times and they usually claim it was ushered in either at the time of the first vision or when the church was legally established in 1830. (and some apologists claim it was ushered in in 1836)
  13. The Kingdom Daniel Saw Rolling forth:
    Original Doctrine– It was the hope that the kingdom of God on earth which Daniel saw coming forth destroying all other kingdoms, would eventually come forth in the future, after Zion was redeemed. Transfigured Doctrine– The church now teaches that the Church IS the Kingdom of God that Danial Saw rolling forth in vision.
  14. Pre-Baptismal Public Witness: Original Gospel– God commanded the new converts of the newly restored Church of Christ to make a public witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins and are determined to serve him to the end. Transfigured Gospel– Allows new converts to be baptized without first making a public witness before the church.
  15. The Lords Supper: Original Doctrine– The Lords Supper was one of the five ordinances of the gospel. Transfigured Doctrine– the Lords Supper is no longer considered an ordinance of salvation by many.
  16. The Members of the Church Commanded to Kneel during the Sacrament; Original Doctrine- the entire congregation was to kneel. Transfigured Doctrine– Only those blessing the sacrament need to kneel while the congregation sits on their “arses”. (which is extremely offensive to God)
  17. The Sacrament must be administered by an Elder or Priest: Original Doctrine– The Sacrament must be administered by an Elder or Priest. Transfigured Doctrine– The Teachers and Deacons may assist in the administration of the sacrament.
  18. The Ordinance of faith: Original Doctrine- Faith was originally listed as one of the ordinances of the gospel. Transfigured Doctrine- Faith is now only a principle of the gospel.
  19. Virgin birth: Original Doctrine- Mary was a virgin before and after giving birth to Christ. She became pregnant after being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Transfigured Doctrine– God the Father came down in a physical body and had carnal sex with Mary.
  20. Marriage: Original Doctrine– A righteous monogamous couple could gain the highest salvation. Transfigured Doctrine– Polygamy was required to gain a greater salvation.

Needless to say, there are many more transfigured doctrines that could be added to the list. I may address more of them in the finished article. Feel free to submit others that you feel should be included or challenge any of the above suppositions that you think are inaccurate.

16 Responses to “..from him shall be taken even the light which he has received”

  1. Waiting says:

    I, like you, OWIW lean much more to the lectures on faith point of view about a lot of these things. I am having a real bittersweet time in my faith. One of the things I pray for almost daily is for knowledge of what is true. And I feel the Father is teaching me little by little. It is wonderful when I discover new truth, but hard sometimes because of some of the things I was taught growing up being called totally into question. Not that my eyes are completely open or anything, but I see many around me who are so thick in it, and not just church, but all facets of life, I am just amazed. But I don’t judge, because I used to be thick in it too, and so I understand. Sometimes I feel like it is just one big mass of confusion. OWIW perhaps that is why you decided to blog about this kind of thing. It is a way to get your feelings and what you know out. I am trying to live closer to God, so that I can have the spirit to lead me to truth.

  2. Well said, Waiting-

    Learning new truth and discarding old beliefs truly is a bittersweet experience.

    It is a struggle for me to not be judgmental.. but then, all I have to do is look at how much my own spiritual/religious paradigm has changed.. and continues to change and it reminds me that I am really not in a position to be judging others.

    God is in charge.

    He has covered our eyes and he will return his servants and increase his spirit to eventually take the blindness off of the believing portion of Israel.

  3. The Glider says:

    OWIW, thank you so much for posting and sharing. I am definitely interested in reading your final write-up. What I find interesting about what you have put is that I recognize the ‘transfigured` doctrines as what I learned over the last four decades, but they aren’t what I look to when I turn to God for peace and strength to just hold on through this experience here – for that, I just try to feel God’s love, independent of any framework.

    Of course, I feel that that doesn’t move me forward in knowing God and myself, but it does help me get by.

    • That is a great point Glider-

      I have done the same things over the years. During this time it is focusing on God’s love for us that keeps us hanging on.

      I also agree with your last statement as well which is why I am trying to sort out the true doctrines from the transfigured doctrines. Section one of the D&C speaks of a time when faith will increase in the earth when the Marvelous Work begins again. I think the increase in faith will have to do with getting back to the original truths that had been restored.

  4. russ terry says:

    Thanks for all the time and effort you put into this information. I am learning much and challenging your conclusions at times also. I would like a copy when you are finished. Will it include references?

    • Yes it will include references but I don’t know how soon I will get around to finishing it.

      I am glad you are challenging my conclusions. It is very important to be a critical thinker as you are evaluating this information and checking the scriptural references… and of course, ultimately, you need confirmation from the spirit.

  5. wewingtonheet says:

    Hi Watcher,

    Another good one, thank you. I would also like a copy when you are finished. Some of the doctrines you list as transfigured I had never really heard about. Perhaps it is a Utah thing (yuck yuck). However, a couple of them are doctrines I have grown up with and you have hinted at them already in other posts. These are they that I need to look into further and test your hypothesis so to speak! As many have already noted, this is indeed painful to confront face to face but you have done much of the legwork in searching the word and voice of God for us. Again thank you.

    I was teaching the Parable of the Good Shepherd at Church to my 9-11 year olds and we were discussing how the sheep know the Shepherds voice. His sheep know his voice and follow him however, how are we, who are all sheep, to know his voice? We must search the scriptures so that we know and understand our Savior and his nature. If we do not understand Him how can we possibly recognize his voice.

    The neat thing about this parable is that there is only one entrance to the sheepfold. There is only one gateway out or into the sheepfold and only the Good Shepherd can lead us out. He is both the Way and the Guide. The parable also teaches us that anyone else who tries to come in other than the shepherd is interested only in thievery and destruction – nothing else. Even the hirelings will run from the wolves caring only for themselves and not the sheep.

    I was trying to teach my boys that there are many hirelings today that have good intentions but they do not truly love us as the Good Shepherd loves us however there are a few in the past that were at one time hirelings, but then they became converted to the true gospel and have become true shepherds. They speak with His voice but we must learn of His voice.

    Thanks for helping us all get better aquainted with the Master’s voice so we can know it is Him when he calls for us!!!

  6. The Glider says:

    Watcher, I am curious if you ever finished this project. Since reading it I told myself that much of the value in something like this is working it out yourself. While this may be true (and keeps me from being a parrot), I still struggle to find references. I can put pieces together, but am not the best at finding those pieces.

    I am curious as to the type of references you use. In the OC you mention the Lectures on Faith, but what else is in your library?

  7. I did not finish this one. In fact there a few I have not finished.

    I am afraid I suffer from attention deficit when it comes to some of these series of posts.

    I am not even sure where I put my notes on this particular series.


    I hope to finish it someday.

    Thank you for visiting.

    I am Watching, but not always entirely engaged.

  8. Toni says:

    Very interesting list. I can see some of them, right off the bat, as changes made – even though a few of them seem to be what BY taught and not necessarily what is being taught now.

    I would use the Book of Mormon as my first reference, though. For example, Jesus appeared to the brother of Jared and explicitly stated that he did not have a body of flesh – BofJ was seeing His spirit body, which was like the body he would take after he was born.

    • Toni

      Yes, my list is not limited to the false doctrines being taught and believed today, rather it contains false doctrines that can clearly be identified as having been taught by church authorities anytime after the fulness of the gospel was rejected by the gentiles sometime by the end of 1834 when the Lord informed the saints that the window of opportunity had passed for them to establish Zion. (D&C 104 & 105)

      The church very wisely is becoming much less committed to providing specific authoritative declarations about the doctrines that it does or does not believe in. I believe this is because it has been embarrassing in the past, to have Presidents of the church contradict each other and have official doctrines change from time to time depending on who the president of the church is and what he believes in.

      I believe that the fact that doctrines change in the church and there is little consistency is just another one of the many evidences pertaining to the loss of light that once shined forth.

      It is interesting that you use the Book of Ether to prove that Christ did not have a physical body prior to being born to Mary. Some might use Ether to prove just the opposite. For instance, why did God need to “touch” the “stones” with his “finger” if there was no substance to his spiritual finger? (Ether 3:4,6)

      It is difficult to find any definitions of touch in the 1828 Websters dictionary that could be applied to those verses that don’t require physical contact between two physical entities.. particularly involving a physical body. Please see the two examples below from the dictionary-

      1. To come in contact with; to hit or strike against.

      He touched the hollow of his thigh. Gen. 32. Matt.9.

      Esther drew near, and touched the top of the scepter. Esth.5.

      2. To perceive by the sense of feeling.

      Nothing but body can be touch’d or touch.

      Ether states that the brother of Jared saw that “the finger of the Lord… was the finger of a man“. (3:6)

      One of the reasons the brother of Jared was frightened is because he, while transfigured by and filled with the spirit, was afraid that the Lord would “smite” him. Another term that would be a probable reference to a physical hand.

      He than observes “I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood” (3:8)

      He is making a huge doctrinal declaration here. Previously it had not occurred to him that the Lord had a body of flesh and blood.

      If that doctrinal observation was wrong, it seems to me that it would require a clear and concise rebuke or correction from God… would it not?

      Most people assume that after TBoJ made the declaration that he could see that God had a body of flesh and blood, that God corrected him and challenged his declaration.

      I would suggest however that this is not the case.

      I believe that TBoJ was transfigured and filled with the Holy Ghost and he did perceive accurately that God (Christ) had a body of flesh and blood.

      Lets look closely at the first few words of God’s response to see if he was challenging or correcting a false claim-

      “And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen…”

      That sounds to me like God was endorsing what had been seen.

      Now let’s look at the whole response-

      “And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?”

      God seems to be substantiating TBoJ’s testimony and then adding to it and adding further clarication… ie, “..yes, your observation is correct and furthermore, it has been revealed to you that I will take upon me flesh and blood…”

      I can see how you might assume that God was now contradicting what TBoJ saw and stated, but I can also see another way of interpreting what God said, to be supporting and adding to it.

      First, we need to consider that TBoJ had passed through the veil of unbelief. He was now observing things through the eye of faith in the spiritual dimension in “eternity” instead of “time”.

      For that reason alone, we mortals may be having a difficult time understanding exactly what TBoJ was seeing and saying as well as what God was saying.

      Nevertheless, God deemed it important enough to put it in the BofM so that we can attempt to understand it partially before we pass through the veil to have the same experience. It is very important to use supporting passages on the same topic for context.

      We do know that all time, past present and future is continually before God’s eyes. It is therefore possible that TBoJ also had all time, past, present and future before his eyes for the short time that he had past through the veil into a view of things as they exist in eternity. Hence Christ’s statement about TBoJ seeing the future event of Christ visiting the inhabitants of the earth.

      This may have something to do with John the Revelators declaration that the “testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”. (looking at Christ is looking at the past present and future… etc.)

      Anyway, without getting to far down the rabbit hole, I am simply pointing out that Ether saw God and could see that he is an unchangeable God from all eternity to all eternity as documented in other passages. (in one of my posts on the 20 doctrines I am going to prove from the standard works that Christ, like the Father, is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. (there is something else for you to research!)

      Another doctrine I will highlight in the current series is the fact that Christ did not have mortal/human blood when he made made the infinite and eternal atonement… which begs the question, where did his physical but perfect, eternal and infinite God-blood come from? Is it not reasonable to assume that it existed in Christ’s glorified tangible body prior to Christ’s birth to Mary since he clearly did not inherit his God-blood or his ability to manufacture God-blood from her?

      Getting back to the Book of Ether.

      Is it possible that God was endorsing the truthfulness of the declaration that TBoJ made while transfigured before God, and then added additional information for the reader?

      Is it possible that Christ had a tangible body with God-blood flowing through his veins prior to his earthly ministry but that he needed to temporarily take upon himself an even more coarse tangible human flesh than the God-flesh that he already had (which he possibly obtained from Mary) that would be actuated with his pure, perfect Godly blood that did not have the seeds of sine in it?

      This would satisfy both sides of the argument and explain a few other things as well.

      Now lets move forward to verse 16 which can be interpreted two different ways. One is that the “body of his spirit” refers to the tangible body that houses his spirit and that looks like a spirit when it has its glory with it.

      The other way of interpreting it is that it is just referring to the bodily form of his spirit.

      “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.”

      Interestingly, verse 17 seems to summarize what the previous verses were communicating:

      “And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.
      And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.”:


      According to Moroni’s inspired interpretation of what TBoJ was saying, Christ revealed himself to TBoJ prior to his earthly ministry “after the manner and IN THE LIKENESS OF THE SAME BODY AS HE [WOULD EVENTUALLY SHOW ] HIMSELF UNTO THE NEPHITES!!!!!

      I realize this verse can still be interpreted two opposite ways.

      To me however, it is saying that he was in the same body (same likeness- tangible) as the one he would eventually minister to the Nephites in. Did Christ minister to the Nephites in a physical resurrected body or in a spirit body? I believe it was clearly a physical body.

      In John 17:5 Christ makes the following statement.

      “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

      That statement seems to challenge the Mormon belief that Christ was a human that would become a God or even become a greater God with a greater glory after he completed his ministry and atonement. Indeed, Christ was simply going to return to the glorified state of Godhood that he was in, prior to his earthy ministry. The same glorified body.

      Christ was not baptized for the emission of his sins because he did not have any sins that needed to be remitted… he was God. He was simply setting an example for us to follow with an ordinance that would enable us to have our sins remitted because of the atonement of God

      Anyway, I could provide other scriptures to substantiate a different interpretation than the commonly accepted one regarding the interesting use of the words that Ether used to cover this mysterious topic, however, I think this will pretty much be cleared up in my post about the eternal unchangeableness of Christ.

      It will prove from at least three scriptural passages that Christ is from everlasting to everlasting just like the Father, (aside from a brief, condescension to this world which did not change his eternal composition of eternal sameness.) Additional documentation will be provided to show that like the Father, Christ is unchangeable from eternity to eternity.

      Having said all of that, I will concede that of all of the 20 items I listed on that post over a year ago, you did indeed pick the one that appears (from a surface reading) to be the most questionable without extremely deep research.

      You are a sharp cookie! LOL

      I thank you for your very thoughtful response.


  9. Frederick says:


    I’m glad to see that you still look at these comments. I recently have been going through my own journey of awakening. In fact, when I read the LoF recently, it caused me to seriously consider what I was reading. I too thought, how could we be taught two seemingly different doctrine. One scripture always comes to mind when I think of the Holy Spirit, 1 Nephi 11:6-11. In that scripture Nephi spoke with the Spirit of the Lord who was in the form of a man. How does that compare with what we are taught in the Lectures on Faith?

    Do you have any thoughts? Thanks!

    • Frederick

      That is a great question and observation-

      I have noticed that the phrase “spirit of the Lord” is used over seventy times in the OT and NT and may not always be used exactly the same way.
      I can see times when it may be referring to the Father and sometimes possibly the son. There are even times when it seems to be used instead of “angel of the Lord” who I have speculated might be Father Adam before he is or was resurrected. In many of those passages it uses the term LORD in caps both separately as well as in that phrase… indicating that it is the same as Jehovah…

      I would suggest that you do a key word search on that term and see what resonates with you.

      I am really glad you have re-read lectures on faith.. I hope that it was a positive experience for you.


  10. I would definitely appreciate receiving this article when you complete it. Thanks.


  11. Blain-

    I am slowly in the process of posting them on this site with corresponding documentation…




  12. Ryan says:

    I would love a copy of the final product.

    5centkid@ gmail.com

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