God will never allow a prophet to lead anyone astray…

Perhaps one of the most poignant bible stories for illustrating the need for personal revelation and the fact that God DOES allow prophets to lead people astray in order to test them, is found in 1 Kings 13.

The story line is so remarkable that I am not going to tell it in detail, you simply need to read it yourself. To summarize however, in my own words with perhaps the taking of a little literary license, a man of God who had received direct revelation from God had been commanded to NOT do something while on a journey.

He was then approached by another true prophet during his journey and told that he should in fact do it.

When the first prophet declared that the Lord had commanded him not to do it, the second prophet assured him that the Lord had changed his mind and told him that an angel of the Lord had thus appeared and rescinded the commandment of the Lord.

At this, the first prophet accepted the invitation to do what the Lord had commanded him to NOT do.

As a result, the Lord had a lion destroy the first prophet from off the face of the earth for disobedience and for putting his trust in the arm of flesh  and in the appearance of an angel, over the word of God.

So much for God never allowing prophets to lead anyone astray.

So much for angels appearing to revoke a previous commandment of God.

So much for the God that has been created by Modern Mormonism and his teachings, neither of which can be found in the holy and infallible word of God.

[editorial note: See the comments for observations by NEPT. I forgot to follow my own rules and consult the JST version of 1 Kings 13 first. It provides greater clarity to the point of the storyline]

BTW in case you think the above story is an anomaly, read the 35th chapter of Jeremiah. It also teaches that God will use true prophets to tempt and test people into disobeying commandments from God to see if they will righteously obey a true commandment that was previously given by the Lord or if they can be seduced by a true prophet into deviating from the established commandment.

[editorial note: here is a recent response I gave to someone who was shilling me about this topic]

I personally believe you have put a curse upon your own head by accepting the doctrine you just espoused.

Your remarks are interesting because I just completed a small section about the arm of flesh. Although it mainly addresses the topic of science and the learning of man, it also pertaining to the false doctrine you have just taught espousing prophet-worship.

I think I will share it in this reply area for people to compare your doctrine with what the holy and infallible word of God has to say on the topic..

“#12 Belief in God’s words is the only parameter upon which salvation is based

Putting trust in Science results in a Cursing

Contextual declaration #12 provides the extremely limited parameters that God has established for discerning truth and becoming saved. Please notice how the following passage only allows personal belief in God’s word to access the Holy Spirit and get an individual through the gate of spiritual rebirth into the kingdom.

Notice that the testimony of others plays an important role, but it can only serve to direct others to the word of God. Ultimately, the purpose of testimony is to point people to the word of God or to condemn those who don’t have faith in the word of God.

Even the testimony of righteous men cannot save another person, it will either direct them to God’s word that will be accepted on faith, or it will ultimately condemn those that don’t exercise faith in God’s word.

“Whosoever believeth on my words, them will I visit with the manifestation of my spirit; and they shall be born of me, even of the water and of the Spirit… and the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word… and their testimony shall also go forth unto the condemnation of this generation if they harden their hearts against me.”

This startling declaration limits the parameters of salvation to belief on the word of God, and not on the word of man. The eternal law in this contextual declaration would be followed up and amplified in section one where it would be declared that eventually the ordained servants of God (weak things of the earth) would return to the earth to break down the evil structure of the great and abominable church which indoctrinates the world to accept the counsel of other human beings.

The ominous warning is to not trust in human counsel and human learning and wisdom.

“And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets— The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; That faith also might increase in the earth..

The term “arm of flesh” in the above declaration is a critical one and well worth pondering because the Lord has revealed that everyone who puts their trust in the learning and wisdom of other human beings categorically has a curse placed upon them:

O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.” (2 Nephi 4:34)
You cannot be any clearer than the great prophet Nephi was being. He reiterates this curse again later in the book of 2nd Nephi;
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
” 2nd Nephi 28:31

Nephi is actually quoting and paraphrasing an Old Testament prophecy of Jeremiah who foretold that latter day Israel would be cursed by the Lord in the latter days because they put their trust in man instead of God.

In the last days Israel would have their temporal substance and treasures taken as a spoil and be forced to serve their enemies in a land they were previously unaware of. Because of putting their trust in man, Israel would be led into a desert place… even a “salt land” which, at the time, was not currently being “inhabited” by others.

Those that trusted in the counsel of Brigham Young were indeed led to a land of salt where they embraced the insidious doctrine of blindly following the arm of flesh;


“Follow the brethren, God will never allow them to lead you astray
”.

Jeremiah’s prophecy speaks of a blessing and a curing. Those who trust in man are cursed. Those who trust in God will be blessed-

O my mountain in the field, I will give thy substance and all thy treasures to the spoil, and thy high places for sin, throughout all thy borders. And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.” Jeremiah 17:3-7

Jeremiahs prophecy was essentially reiterating the prophecy of Moses in Deuteronomy 28-32 where the latter day cursing of Israel was foretold yet the promise that the elect would eventually repent and be gathered from the four corners of the earth after the apostasy of latter day Israel.

The inspired version of the Bible condenses this principle of not putting one’s faith in the teachings of another man;

And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched. Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.” JST Mark 9:40-48.

The doctrine of not putting trust in the arm of flesh is quite broad. It refers to blindly putting trust in human priesthood leaders instead of the word of God.

It also refers to putting trust in the theories of man and the teachings of modern day science and the associated counsel of man.

Anytime one justifies or discredits faith in God’s word based on science and the learning of man, they are categorically cursed.

This means that the only way to determine if the Book of Mormon is a literal historical document that was inspired by God is to read and believe it. PERIOD.

If you accept or reject the validity of the Book of Mormon based on archeological evidence or DNA evidence or carbon dating or any other evidence based on the learning and wisdom of man, you are cursed.. even if the particular secular evidence you are using should appear to support the truth.

Even well meaning LDS apologists who try to use science to defend the faith are categorically cursed for doing so, because God’s parameters for salvation do not allow science or the learning and counsel of man to be considered. It is strictly an individual’s belief in the word of God.”

Biblical Christianity is a faith based religion that empowers the believer with personal revelation…. it is not a science based religion.

It is also NOT a “follow the brethren”, arm of flesh based religion

The act of blindly following the brethren, even if they are correct, without personal revelation confirming what they are saying, will damn a person and put a curse upon their head.

Example:

This means that if a person proclaiming to be a prophet decides to take funds from investments off of tithing money and use them to build a billion dollar mall with them instead of feeding the poor, it is not a matter of blindly believing that the “prophet” received a revelation to do so, it is also a matter of receiving you own personal revelation that such an act is acceptable and approved of God.”

Here is a true key that will never rust…

Whenever a leader of the church teaches something that sounds kind of funky, or any new doctrine for that matter, check to see if it conforms or conflicts with the word of God.

If it conflicts, discard it.

If it conforms, be sure you understand the context of what is being said, for instance, was the person saying it is a sin to lose confidence in the inspired statements of inspired leaders or was he saying it was a sin to lose confidence in all statements of all LDS leaders, including the uninspired statements and false doctrines that they teach.

BTW#2-

You have been taught the false doctrine that the teachings of living LDS prophets take precedence over the teachings of dead New Testament and Book of Mormon Prophets.

Here is the true doctrine as articulated by President Joseph Fielding Smith

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.

My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them.

Let us have this matter clear.

We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.”

(Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203).”

“ets evaluate what you are saying and see if it is scripturally sound

“We don’t worship prophets. We do, however, respect their chosen status as one of the Lord’s “servants” and therefore place our confidence in their counsel.”

This statement is NOT supported by the word of God. It sounds like something you dug out of a priesthood or SS manual… In fact, it contradicts the word of God.

You are misrepresenting the meaning of section 1:38. It is totally glorifying God and his infallible word. It is not glorifying mortals who are sustained as prophets nor is it glorifying mortals who sometimes have the spirit of prophecy fall upon them as being infallibly inspired all of the time.

Those passages that you quoted are simply saying that any time God speaks to us directly or through his servants, His true words will not fail and should be obeyed. HOWEVER, his statement only applies to the inspired words that come through his prophets NOT the uninspired words that come through his prophets. You have been taught a sanitized and inaccurate definition of what a prophet is.

You will no doubt recall the time that Joseph received a revelation to send Oliver and others on a journey to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. When they returned frustrated and confused as to why their journey was a failure and did not bring the results Joseph had uttered, Joseph simply shrugged and said something to the effect of ” Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.”

We are NOT commanded to categorically have confidence in the counsel of people in leadership positions based solely on their priesthood position. First of all, being a “prophet” is a spiritual gift. God can place the gift of prophecy upon anyone at any time. Even wicked people can be endowed with prophetic knowledge, not just the president of the church.

Some callings, such as that of the President of the church, or the President of the High Priesthood (which are not necessarily synonymous) require the spiritual gift of prophecy to do a good job in their leadership position, however, the fact that the church sustains someone in presiding over them does not determine whether they have the gift of prophecy or not, nor does it prevent them from giving uninspired and erroneous counsel.

The presidents of the current, corporate latter day Saint church have not given valid, “thus sayeth the Lord” prophecies, in the sense that Isaiah and Jeremiah and Joseph Smith did, during your life time.

Even if you persist in believing that the current president of the church is filled with the spirit of prophecy even though he never prophesies, your statement above would still be incorrect because, as Joseph smith said, those with the gift of prophecy don’t always speak prophetically and can error.
Therefore, as JFS said in the passage I previously provided to you, regardless of a person’s priesthood position and regardless of the respect that one would want to give any brother in Christ, we should NEVER categorically have confidence in the advice a person gives just because of their position. Their counsel must be weighed in the balance against the sustained word of God in the four standard works and against the Holy Ghost.

This is why the Lord said in section one: “that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—”

You will notice that the Lord did not qualify that statement to say that a human being with priesthood position is an exception to the rule.

NO!

Every human being is capable of giving erroneous human counsel and God forbids ANYONE including leaders of the church from giving uninspired counsel to other people.

The only way you can possibly avoid following bad human counsel coming from the president of the church or any other priesthood leader is by doing what the scriptures have instructed us to do.

If you will do a keyword search using the term “deceived”, you will find the two inspired passages the tell you how you can avoid being deceived… they have to do with treasuring up the word of God and taking the Holy Ghost as your guide… NOTHING is said about blindly following the counsel of a person because of their holy calling.

“Those critical of the teachings and leaders of the Church are looking through a logical eye rather than our divinely appointed Constant Companion to discern truth. ”

That statement is categorically false and unsupported by scripture.

It presumes that leaders of the church can never error and therefore any criticism is sin.

The truth is that the Lord has warned us that in the last days there would be “false prophets” that we are to beware of.

How can you ever protect yourself from a false prophet entering into the church if you belief in the Catholic doctrine if infallibility?

You have been raised to think that the “law of common consent” is in existence for the sole purpose of verifying your worthiness and loyalty by always sustaining everything that your priesthood leaders say.

If you will go back into the scriptures and the early history, you will find out that it was originally given as a checks and balances, which gives members of the church the right and obligation to challenge any doctrine or decisions being made by priesthood leaders that are deemed to be uninspired.

Are you forgetting that the Lord expressly gave a protocol in church administration for excommunicating the president of the church? That protocol is there for a reason.

If the false doctrine you are teaching was true, it would be impossible to ever excommunicate a fallen prophet and the inspired protocol would prove God to be illogical and in error.

I appreciate your passion, but you are exemplifying zeal without knowledge. You are the result of indoctrination from an apostate church.

PS

“For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.” D&C 64:38-40”


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34 Responses to God will never allow a prophet to lead anyone astray…

  1. NEPT says:

    You should remind your audience, Watcher, of the need to consult the JST since there are some extremely important differences between the KJV and the JST. For example…

    KJV
    18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

    JST
    18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also, even as thou, and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water, that I may prove him; and he lied NOT unto him.

  2. NEPT says:

    The difference noted above between the KJV and the JST suggests to me that God, to try the hearts of men, does send angels (not just lying spirits–1 Kings 22) to give commandments that lead to destruction if followed. Another verse that leads me to believe this is found in Hosea 5:11. In context of the chapter, and the entire book, this verse hints at Ephraim following after a commandment that led to whoring after other gods. What might this commandment be?

  3. NEPT says:

    Let me add just one clarifying statement to my comment above:

    “…God, to try the hearts of men, does send angels…to give commandments that are contrary to scripture and previous commandments that lead to destruction if followed.”

  4. Holy Flippin Cow NEPT!

    What an incredible find and related find…

    When I wrote the short article the thought entered my mind to check the JST and then I blitzed it out.

    What a profound clarification the JST makes!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you for getting me back on the strait and narrow!

    Watcher

  5. “Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment”

    I must agree with you NEPT.

    That passage IS speaking about what you and I think it is speaking about.

    I googled the passage to see how the protestants choose to choke on it.

    One of their apologists re-translates it to be more politically correct.

    Here is what he says-

    “A better translation is “He willingly walked away from the commandment,”

    And yet the JST leaves it just the way it is!

    Sometimes me thinks JS knew exactly what he was doing even during the last seven years of his ministry.

    Was he just winking at God the whole time he was being used to give them what they wanted? Even during the intercessory period?

    But then again, I suppose the eyes of the seer could have been covered between 1831 when the JST was finished and 1841, when the commandment was given to latter day Ephraim and Judah.

    You have identified yet another clarifying piece of the prophet puzzle.

    Very strange…

    I love how the last verse of the chapter and the first verse of the next chapter bring it full circle in telling about the upcoming redemption of those who finally acknowledge their offense and repent-

    “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offense [of walking after the false commandment] and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Come, and let us return unto the LORD…”

    PS

    A word search of seeking the Lord early brings up section 88 and appears to refer to the designated time when the saints who respond EARLY in the 3rd watch during a time of affliction will not be forsaken-

    “He that seeketh me early shall find me, and shall not be forsaken.”

  6. NEPT says:

    Was the commandment in what is now D&C 132 really given in 1841? I seem to recall that the “angel of the Lord” transmitted the message earlier, but that JS pretty much ignored the command until later in his ministry. I need to go find where I read such a thing.

    Perhaps JS did know what he was doing, and he refrained from “walking after the commandment” until he knew it was time to prove the saints. Then again, Hosea 5:11 does say that Ephraim was “broken in judgment”–does that mean he was chastised/punished or does that mean he was no longer discerning justly? There’s a whole lot to swallow here.

  7. Well… I think there are multiple issues here.

    First, I think McConkie claims in the chapter heading of 132 that the polygamy revelation was received in 1831. That is misleading and not referring to 132, but rather it is referring to the Lamanite polygamy revelation which says nothing about the spiritual wife doctrine.

    Second, it is true, that JS appears to have claimed that the angel appeared several times and he possibly stated that the angel appeared as early as the Kirtland era.

    Lastly, all evidence from my recollection appears to identify the actual version of 132 that we currently have in the D&C as having been received after he arrived in Nauvoo. In fact, according to the testimony of William Law, the first revelation produced in Nauvoo was very short and only addressed biblical polygamy, not the spiritual wife doctrine.

  8. NEPT says:

    JS appeared to be involved with Fanny Alger in Kirtland; although OC decried it as an affair, others suggest that Alger’s family considered it a “plural marriage”.

    Is the “lamanite polygamy” revelation you refer to the same as the “old testament polygamy” revelation that HS described?

  9. Great observation NEPT.

    Yes it appears to me that it is.

    There is nothing in the Lamanite revelation I can see that alludes to anything other than biblical polygamy for the purpose of rising up seed.

    And I am not aware of any other revelations that came forth during that period of time that address the topic of polygamy or spiritual wives.

    It would appear, in my opinion, that the “Fanny Alger Affair”, (assuming that the extremely limited information we have on it is correct and that we was being fairly judged by Oliver) falls into one of three categories.

    1- The first introduction of Biblical polygamy in this dispensation.

    OR

    2- Human folly followed by sincere repentance and the forgiving grace of a loving father in heaven who would ultimately test his people to see if they are putting their trust in the message or the messenger.

    OR

    3- Both. (In other words an act that was not wise, but which may not have been all that serious because it fell under an old testament law that was still in affect)

    Of course the above three possibilities are just my guess based on my extremely limited understanding of both the historical event in question and the gospel.

    I believe one of the reasons the scriptures admonish us on the importance of trusting in God instead of the arm of flesh is because modern day Mormonism encourages the practice of “Prophet Worship” and the false doctrine of infallibility.

    Modern revelation hints in multiple places that Joseph did sins like other human beings and was capable of committing sin in the future.

    God works through imperfect human beings.

    Moses was an imperfect human being who committed sins, yet was one of the greatest prophets to walk the earth and was able to provide a temporal atonement for his people.

    One of the amazing attributes within the majesty of God is not in the fact that he uses perfect human beings in the process of saving his children but rather in the fact that he is able to use imperfect human beings in the process of saving them.

    Jesus Christ is the only person who never committed sin in this life and, in my opinion, he was NOT human, but rather, was a God.

    Thank you for sharing that observation NEPT… these are the very things that force us to dig deep into the scriptures to try and get a more accurate perspective on the events that took place in the history of the church in the context of the gospel.

  10. On further thought… there is a fourth possibility that comes to mind that would be a more clarified sub-category of possibility #2.

    We don’t know the exact date his relationship with Fanny was consummated… if at all.

    But if it was, and if it was done after the 3 1/2 year period of the higher light, and after Joseph’s calling and election as documented in section 88 took place, and after the atonement statute went into effect, then of course his actions would have been taking place during and as a result of the atonement offering when the sins of Israel had been placed upon his head. (the heads of the two sacrificial goat offerings and others… himself being one of them)

    Based on previous perceptions I had always assumed in my previous posts that the sins upon his head relating to multiple wives first manifested themselves in Nauvoo even though scripture and history make it clear that the sins upon Israel and their leaders resulting from the atonement statute clearly began in Kirtland. Additionally I had assumed that the beginning of the literal enactment of the statute took place in 1836 (section 110) However, additional information and research now indicates that the beginning of that enactment took place 3 1/2 after the special conference at the Morley Farm.

    That might provide the real explanation behind the Fanny Alger affair right there…

  11. Todd says:

    I think that the quote is “God will not permit the Prophet to lead the church astray” as for indivisuals you are on your own

  12. Todd-

    The title of this article was not put into quotes because I was not really using a specific reference… I was just relaying what I think is a basic belief which is held by many, if not most members of the Church.

    The actual quote that has now been embedded into the current LDS scriptures is actually a little different even than the one you are quoting.

    In the “Excerpts…” section that follows the “Official Declaration- 1” the following quote from Wilford Woodruff is given;

    “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as the President of this Church to lead you astray”

    I believe his remarks were directed at the whole church which includes all other apostles and prophets in the church.

    Hence, assuming that Wilford Woodruff considers the President of the Church to be a prophet, even THE prophet of the church, it seems to me that he was saying that the Lords anointed prophet who stands as the president and prophet of the church will never lead members, or other apostles and prophets astray.

    I think that in addition to all of the other scriptural documentation that I have provided in other posts that document that God does in deed use prophets, angels and lying spirits to test people and see if they will stay true to the commandments of the living God, it is worth mentioning again that God knowingly put Satan in a position of priesthood authority in the pre-existence as well, so that he could provide a “test” which ultimately resulted in the war in heaven.

    Perhaps that is the most powerful precedence that we have for the teaching.

    I would be curious to know however, where your quote came from… it does sound familiar. I suspect it comes from a more recent discourse from one of the brethren….

    Thanks for visiting

    Watcher.

  13. cds says:

    Watcher,

    Any opinion on Matthew Gill and “The Book of Jeraneck”?

    CDS

  14. I had never heard about him until a few minutes ago when I got this response from you…

    I am listening to Matthew on youtube right now..

    What do you think?

    Watcher

  15. cds says:

    I think it’s definitely real to him. The question is always did Satan appear as angel of light? He would have to be one of the original servants? to be one of ones we are looking for. What I’ve read of the book is ok but I don’t see any big insights so far, but I haven’t read much yet. The parallels of his claims to JS claims are uncanny so I think as LDS we should be most open to the possiblities whatever they are when they appear but unfortuneatley we tend to write off everything that doesn’t clear the brethern first. As we know most prophets appear like Samuel the Lamanite through unofficial channels. What if we get a naked Isaiah? lol God can use anybody,just trying to keep an open mind…

  16. I agree we need to keep an open mind.

    I listened to him the other night for a while and to some of their conferences, etc.

    I don’t find him and what he says very compelling or enlightening.

    Did you order the book or did you find it online?

  17. cds says:

    Online, no way I’m paying for something as speculative as this before checking it outl.

    http://ldchurchofjesuschrist.org/The_Book_of_Jeraneck.pdf

  18. cds says:

    speaking of books just bought last week “The Book of Mammon” by Daymon Smith. It’s a great read by an ex church office employee, he did a great interview on Mormon Stories last month.

  19. Thank you for the link… Funny you mentioned that book by Daymon Smith, I was just reading about it within the last week.

  20. Ryan says:

    You might not have the time, but could you clean up the original post?

    I got lost in all the “he said” “you said” conversation going back and forth. I didn’t know who was speaking and when.

    Maybe it’s just me…

  21. Ryan says:

    Watcher,

    Given the literalness of Hosea 5:11 and Ephraim (modern Israel through Joseph Smith) following the Spiritual Wife Dictrine for a time and “going after the commandment” what are your thoughts of Willford Woodruff being in the St. George Temple and doing the work for the Founding Fathers and other prominent men and women?

    Would God have such a thing happen especially since D&C 124 clearly states that unless the Nauvoo Temple was completed, which it wasn’t, that our dead and church would be rejected?

    Love to hear your thoughts on this one too.

  22. Ryan

    I simply don’t believe for one minute that the founding fathers came to the St George Temple.

    The church had clearly been condemned, rejected, and cursed.

    You cannot fail to live the law of the gospel as dictated in section 42, in Kirtland, and then flee to Far West and then flee to Nauvoo and then fail to have a reformation and fail to build the temple within the appointed time, and then go upon your merry little way practicing abominations before the Lord, and still have holy temples with holy ordinances.

    Making Benjamin Franklin, a High Priest is just frosting on the cake, and yet somewhat poetic, given the infiltration of secret combinations and secret abominations that had infiltrated the church.

    2nd Thes prophesied that the Lord God would send a strong delusion upon those that reject the truth in the latter days.

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    The “Falling away” spoken of in that chapter is clearly talking about a falling away that takes place in the latter days, not the falling away of the New Testament church.

    Rock Waterman over at Pure Mormonism did an interesting post on this very topic titled “Wilford Woodruff’s Pants Are On Fire”

    In it he provides some facinating details that question the historicity of the event, as I recall.

    You might find it very interesting

    Watcher

    http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2013/04/wilford-woodruffs-pants-are-on-fire.html

  23. Ryan says:

    I’ve always wondered about Benjamin Franklin after reading his biography and the whoredoms he committed. It just didn’t sit well with me.

    Rock attends the ward after mine 🙂

  24. It is truly a small world!

    Give Rock a big hug from me next time you see him… and be sure to remind him that Joseph Smith DID practice polygamy LOL 😉

    I think the Hellfire Club that Franklin attended would have been classified as an abomination as per the definition being used in section 124

  25. stockoneder says:

    The issue that woke me up to the fallibility of the prophet and church leaders was(is) the admonition to submit to, vote in and support the systemic evil which is the state. The belief in authority and in its creation the state is what I believe we were warned about in 1 Nephi 14:9 “And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.”
    Statism is a religion, the worlds biggest and most powerful one and the state is the church of the devil. The state is based on force and operated by theft. Its doctrine is murder, lying, coveting, stealing and claiming it is the only authority. The state has killed 262 million of its own peoples since 1900. And tens of millions more in its wars.
    Listening to a prophet telling me I am its subject and it owns me and I must obey and condone its actions by voting for it is reprehensible.
    I have argued over the 12th article of faith with many church members in my day who accept it blindly.
    I ask them how does a thing called government, made up of people who are all subject to God’s commandments, get a pass for all those same people to break most of those commandments with impunity? And if the thugs in the government, who supposedly represent you, break those commandments why aren’t you liable for their actions when they are your representatives? “Cause the prophet said so and that’s what it says in AOF 12.”
    What about what Alma said in the BOM which is the most correct book on earth; Mosiah 23: 7. “But he said unto them: Behold, it is not expedient that we should have a king; for thus saith the Lord: Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think himself above another; therefore I say unto you it is not expedient that ye should have a king. And continued in 13. And now as ye have been delivered by the power of God out of these bonds; yea, even out of the hands of king Noah and his people, and also from the bonds of iniquity, even so I desire that ye should stand fast in this liberty wherewith ye have been made free, and that ye trust no man to be a king(presidents, rulers, magistrates, etc.,) over you.
    And didn’t the church hypocritically break AOF 12 for decades while they practiced polygamy, refuting their own doctrine?

  26. Amen and well said, stockoneder, I couldn’t agree more.

    Much of what you have said is covered in Verlan Anderson’s book “The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil” and it is true.

    Those who support and sustain a corrupt government are part of the Great and Abominable Church… and that includes all of us, to one extent or another which is why, we need the properly ordained servants of the Lord to return, under the direction of the Lord and facilitate things as God calls us out of Babylon.

    PS
    We must be washed clean from the sin we are all participating in. Nobody that has not consecrated, as detailed in the scriptures, and is currently supporting a corrupt government, could ever possibly receive audiences from the Lord telling them what a great guy they are or get their calling and election made sure.

  27. stockoneder says:

    I haven’t read that book but I will check it out. That is a great point and I know the person who you are talking about is a supporter of the government and believes in submitting to and accepting its authority. After all that is his job and it is reflected in his writings.
    You have helped me connect a lot of dots which have been troubling me for many years and I thank you for that.
    God is the only authority I accept I and am trying to keep his commandments and love my neighbor. Don’t see how I can possibly do that while I am voting for(accepting and condoning) people who break those commandments every day and then also voting for my neighbor to be robbed, killed, exploited, subjugated and controlled.
    This is what I am also teaching my kids.

  28. Questioning says:

    I am very weak in scriptural knowledge so I was hoping you could help me. In the story in 1 kings, the angel contradicts the Lord and so the prophet is destroyed for following the angel and not God. In the book of mormon it was a commandment not to kill, but an angel came to Nephi telling him to kill Laban. Any thoughts, I’m so confused?

  29. That is a great question, Questioning.. particularly in light of the two examples you are presenting that seem quite similar.

    One significant distinction between the two narratives presented is that in 1st kings, the first prophet took the word of the second prophet ( regarding the instructions of an angel with a message that contradicted the previous message from the Lord), whereas Nephi was personally visited by an angel and personally discerned the angel to be sent from God with a true message.

    I see that as a huge distinction.

    In the one narrative a person was relying on the arm of flesh while the other narrative involved a personal visitation by an angel.

    I find it curious that the first prophet in 1st Kings didn’t personally approach the Lord for a confirmation about what the 2nd prophet was telling him.

    I think the bottom line is that each person is responsible for inquiring of the Lord and of discerning between true messages and false messages. One is never justified in simply accepting the advice of another mortal.

    In 1st Kings, the 2nd prophet appears to be a person well esteemed and publicly acknowledged as a valid prophet. Someone who was an credible spiritual leader with an impressive track record as a prophet. Nevertheless, that prophet failed in that instance to present a valid message from the Lord through an angel.

    This is why I have stressed in other posts to not categorically label someone as a true or false prophet. Rather, always discern each message based on its own merits.

    It is possible for someone who has prophesied falsely in the past to give a true message and it is possible for someone with a perfect track record, to give a false message. We must judge the message, not just the credibility of the messenger.

    Technically speaking, according to the scriptures, each of us must take the Holy Ghost as our guide WHEN THE FULNESS OF THE GOSPEL IS ON THE EARTH.

    HOWEVER- To make matters a little more confusing, I am going to demonstrate in a future post having to do with the current series I am doing, that we live during a time of cursing and darkness and “Mercy” when the fulness of Gods spirit has been withheld from the earth.

    We do not live during a time of “Gospel-Grace” when the fulness of the gospel is on the earth.

    This concept will become more apparent to people once they understand the significance of why Christ was standing above the ark of the testimony when He appeared to Joseph and Oliver. The Ark has a written testimony in song, in it, that provided testimony against the Saints. This is why the intervention required the mercy seat and an intercession.

    This means, in my opinion, that virtually nobody is currently taking the Holy Spirit as their guide in the literal and ultimate sense.

    Nevertheless, we do have a portion of God’s spirit and we do know, from the light of Christ how to distinguish right from wrong.

    I know that what I am saying is going to disturb a lot of people and there are possibly going to be readers of this blog that are offended by what I just said, and will reject the notion, but that is my personal belief and that is why we live in a time of strong delusion when so many people are now claiming to be having spiritual experiences having to do with visitations from Christ and angels.

    A false, perverse and pervasive spirit of deception has been unleashed upon the earth and a great deception is currently sweeping the landscape.

    Blessed are those that wait for the true messengers and for the light to shine forth among those that sit in darkness.

  30. Ryan says:

    Was Nephi conversing with an angel or the spirit within him when he slew Laban?

    Verse 10 says he he said in his heart that he never shed the blood of man.

    But then in verse 14 he said he heard the words of the spirit.

    I know that Boyd says that hearing is more of a feeling but that could be what we know of it in our current non-fullness state.

    Also, I was pondering this over this past week.

    How does studying church history or doctrinal facts lead us to have a closer relationship with Christ?

    For me this has always been a struggle. Knowing things but not necessarily doing them. Like James counseled to be doers not only hearers.

    What makes gives one that conversion to keep the commandment(s) in the moment when the spirit prompts you to keep them as with Nephi?

    I’m not guilty of grevious sins but do have my favorites that I like to indulge in even when promoted not to.

    Is it a weakness or rebellion? Only I can answer that I guess.

  31. Questioning says:

    Thank you for your response, but on the matter of being in a time of darkness I have a follow up question. I’m at the point in my life where I am looking for the truth, the cold hard factual truth whether or not I like it. If it is the Holy Ghost that testify of truth, and we are in darkness, than at this time am I unable to find that truth?????

  32. I am personally convinced that we are able to find the truth during this time of hidden darkness. However, I just don’t think we have access to all of the spiritual gifts and manifestations that are available when the fulness of the gospel is on the earth.

    Section one informs us they when the servants return, when the light shines forth in the 3rd watch, that “faith will increase on the earth” or something to that effect.

    The reason that faith is going to increase is because faith is a gift of God that is actuated through his grace and his spirit… and he is only giving a small portion of His spirit to the world right now.

    Back in Section 63:32 the Lord informed Joseph that he was holding his spirit from the inhabitants of the earth. Without full access to God’s spirit, we cannot enjoy the fulness of the gift of faith and the associated spiritual gifts.

    So don’t be discouraged about being able to learn and discern truth right now. It is possible to do so and we need to increase in spiritual intelligence as much as we can in preparation for the Marvelous Work that is about to take place. But don’t be fooled by all of the delusional people out there that are claiming that they are having experiences that only take place when the fulness of the gospel is on the earth.

    Just the opinion of a heretic… take it for what it is worth.. 🙂

  33. David says:

    Watcher and friends,
    First thing that I want to say is that God works through all kinds of individuals as perfectly illustrated by Sidney Rigdons ministry and Joseph and Oliver
    Being led to Sidney. With that said, Ryan mentioned Ben’s whoring around, I would submit that there is truth and profane info on many individuals. I believe that Ben having sired two children with Marie Antionette was purposeful in the big picture as Vienna Jaques who played a big part in early LDS history and is mentioned in D&C is an example of men who do His work and subsequently do their own work. John James Ottobahn was the brother of Vienna and look at his lineage to royalty and history!?

    Secondly, we must study deeply into the history of our nation, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitutoion, Bill of Rights and how it was all hijacked and counterfeited by the gadiantons! When one does so, one can clearly see the similitude of Statism/Satanism in both church and government! We are commanded to know the laws of God and since blood was shed for our sacred Constitution, we must know all truth pertaining to the law of the land, Gods law for all inhabitants of the earth, not just US citizens.

    The Bible teaches clearly how to engage in commerce in kind with one another, how to exchange in honor one with another, how evil usury is, how to discharge debt and so on. Debt and sin are synonymous! When one judges another, one creates a debt upon ones soul and consciousness, period!

    Watcher, I truly believe that we have entered into a time where we have the Full access to the power of the Holy Spirit! I do agree with you that the curse is in effect and there are many who are getting what their hearts desires are! As in seeing Christ or ???

    Here’s the real deal in a nutshell for all of us seekers of truth, pure truth, and the restoration/ reformation of Gods Holy Kingdom. It begins with love, in ones heart, aligning ones will to be swallowed up in the will of God. There can be no contention, period! Not one jot or tittle of contention as that is the great disqualifyer. Contention is not authored by God! We are commanded to not be deceived and to not deceive ourselves, period! So it’s back to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, period!

    Meditation and patience are the grand keys to preparing ones heart to entreat the Holy Spirit to not only enter but to reside for Gospel Doctrine Lessons! It is possible to know the truth in all things because all is possible with God, period! When the heart is OPEN and the spirit is Humble and quiet the Holy Spirit can teach you at a quantum level! The more time you invest in studying the Word of God and entreating the Holy Spirit and then walk and talk to God, spend an hour or two looking into your pupils in mirror talking to Jesus Christ while in your periferal vision have a picture of Christ to creat a complete real time visualization of having your hour with the Savior while the God of Spirits is residing in your bosom/heart.
    It is the transformation we must do now, today, all day when one is able to do so.

    I am a nobody and have knowingly sinned against Gods commandments and trespassed my neighbor and I have addictions because of my physical senses and having exposure to a world dominated by a deceiver who has truly received a portion of the Holy Order of the Son!!! No one can point their finger at another without first seeing oneself in the persons eyes when pointing! So we must get over denial and embrace acceptance to the minuscule mind of man and his all contorting precepts! We are in confliction, all of us are on the same ship and we must make every attempt in the fiber of our being to “See All Things As They Really Are!” the illusion is real, the delusion is crushing souls because most people are not to willing to invest 90% of their God given energy into learning the mysteries of God and His Kingdom on their own and discerning who they allow to mentor them in their pursuit of All Truth!

    The grand key is to willingly exit Babylon when one realizes ones AWEFUL STATE! This is how we do it, 90% of our energy into the will of God and 10% toward Babylon, period! Everything is upside down, inside out and backward because we all have had a veil with chains placed upon us in our entrance and we have sheaths over our hearts that must be circumcised and removed along with the veil! Today!!!!!!!

    Anyone who is placing more energy into Babylon is serving mammon, period! Lips say niceties but hearts, fruits, works and intention from the heart are truly the engine of transformation. The servants will not appear in your life until you place your heart, soul, mind, might and strength on the alter and cry mightily unto God for Devine guidance from the Spirit in all things. We must do the preparatory work in exploring the chamber of ones heart that pumps the very fluid that has, is and will always be the qualifier, period!

    I am not preaching my friends, my love for each of you is what I choose to emit as I believe the commandments are a framework like the Constitution! We are commanded to not be commanded alway! Zion is built individually and collectively in ones own heart on ones own will, period! We are commanded to first obtain the Word before we go into the world to teach the Word!

    Watcher, I believe you have come on line at the appointed time because you are laying it down! And asking for critique and correction in your excellent works on discerning all truth! This is the format, we must stand to be corrected in all things! I have babbled a lot on this blog as of late and have said things that can and should be challenged! I have prayed mightily for 22 years to prepare myself for for the servants return and for the Lord to shorten these days in righteousness because i have a self interest in my salvation but cannot be saved without sacrificing my all unto God in complete trust that His authorized ordained servants will through the Holy Priesthood administrate in total honor and harmony. It’s on us people! The sooner we all get on board with placing all that we have on the alter the sooner the work starts, period! Refute that!?Anyone!? Can I/you/we do it!?!?

    ABSOLUTELY!!! The Spirit that our father is pouring upon the earth at this very moment is like a great rain/reign storm! But are we able to see it, hear it and be consumed by it if we are still contemplating material things that are absolutely unessessary for our eternal salvation!?!? Are we afraid of what man can do!?!? By creating a holy place for the Spirit to dwell we can have those who have been chosen appear and gather us to stand in Holy Places.

    It all comes down to Trusting God! Faith is exponential coupled with trust! Stepping into darkness believing that the light will appear and guide ones step just as you think you may free fall into the abyss! one must overcome death and the material world to even begin to see the entrance to Zion.

    If we really truly want the grand prize of living in an eternal realm with God, His Son and the Holy Spirit with all of the Gods that have become, then we must flee Babylon willingly before the abomination of desolation to have a chance. Waiting and hoping and thinking and not applying the majority of our energy to the will of God today, will get us a big, big, big disappointing surprise! This year is the begending of many sorrows that have been prophesied! Watcher, I checked out your earthen garden and was impressed that you are preparing to feed yourself and your family! One must be able to feed oneself first and foremost to be able to assist in feeding another to survive! The similitude of eating for the flesh and feasting on the Word is profound indeed!

    We must prepare today willingly to live and enjoy the Law of Consecration! Waiting for instruction and being shown will be harder on everyone, especially the Appointed ones. Anyone paying attention to truth should embrace this concept today because we are truly living on the last atoms of the fumes of the world as we know it! It’s not fear at all with trust in God, it’s joy in ones heart to truly be the ones who are the warriors here upon the earth today to bring again Zion! Illinois spelled backwards is a clue!!! The name of the state itself is all telling no matter what way you read it!!! Peace and much love friends!

    David.

  34. David says:

    Watcher and dear friends,
    Please forgive me for my long windedness, but I left out the grandest of keys of our salvation, and that is asking for Forgiveness, giving Forgiveness(For-Gift-ing) Forsaking and Abhorrence of all Sin, REPENTENCE, REPENTENCE, REPENTENCE, in true lowly contrite humility will surely get us location, location, location!

    Hope all had a beautiful sabbath! Peace.

    David.

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