“I WILL TELL YOU IN YOUR MIND AND IN YOUR HEART”

It has been awhile since I have posted anything on this site. I recently posted an article about the Fulness of the Father over on the Anarchy Site.

I also recently did a post over there about Trying the Spirits. That topic has been on my mind lately. In the post I mention a recent press release pertaining to the bright star currently in the heavens that supposedly heralds the emergence of Maitreya, a coming world teacher;

Bright star heralds the emergence of Maitreya the World Teacher
LONDON, January 22 /PRNewswire/ –

I included in the post, an article by Joseph Smith which talks about the seducing spirits in the earth and how important it is to be able to try the spirits. (I highly suggest you read the article by Joseph Smith on Trying the Spirits if you have not done so)

The Prophet begins his article with the following paragraph;

Recent occurrences that have transpired amongst us render it an imperative duty devolving upon me to say something in relation to the spirits by which men are actuated. It is evident from the apostle’s writings that many false spirits existed in their day, and have “gone forth into the world,” and that it needed intelligence which God alone could impart to detect false spirits, and to prove what spirits were of God. The world in general have been grossly ignorant in regard to this one thing, and why should they be otherwise. “For no man knows the things of God, but by the spirit of God.”

In the article Joseph Smith points out that virtually all groups have a distinctive spirit about them. There is a specific guiding spiritual force behind every religion and virtually every group.

I have certainly noticed that as I have taken the opportunity to speak with many people from many religions.

One day, years ago, a Jehovah’s Witness knocked on our door back when we were living in Holiday. I love speaking to anyone about religion so we got into an interesting discussion with her.

She was a very typical Jehovah’s Witness. By that I mean, she had the same spirit about her that all of the JW’s have had that I have spoken with over the years. She was guided by the exact same spirit they all are guided by.

About half way through the conversation I felt prompted to looked her in the eyes and asked “Why did you leave the LDS Church?”

She was surprised at the question because she had not said anything to indicate she had ever had anything to do with Mormonism. In fact she had gone out of her way to pretend ignorance about LDS doctrine. She said “what makes you think I used to be LDS?”

I didn’t answer her question; I simply said “you WERE ONCE LDS, why did you leave the Church?”

Finally she confessed that she had left the Church and proceeded to give us the details.

Strangely enough, the spirit about her was totally the one that governs the JWs. It was only through the prompting of the spirit that I knew she had previously been a Mormon.

Anyway, I have spoken to countless people from various churches over the years and I have noticed that although there are individual and unique personalities with differing doctrinal opinions even within the religious organization they belong to, there is a very distinct spirit that governs each organized group of people.

We live in a day when so much delusion and deception is going forth in the earth.

I have watched as “Christopher” the false prophet that claims to have brought forth the sealed portion has accumulated a following of believers, solely based on his charismatic personality and the scriptural ignorance of those that follow him.

Within days of posting the article about trying the spirits, one fellow replied to a post who claimed to have sacrificed all things. The implication of his remarks is that he has parted the heavens and received the greater things.. even the mysteries. He condescendingly let the group know that if they had been as enlightened as he has been, they would be discussing different topics. Which spirit guides this person? Only someone who can discern spirits can really know.

Also within a very short period of time, another person made a reply. She is a native America Woman that claims that God has revealed greater truths to her and she is to enlighten any of the darkened LDS people that will listen to her… which spirit is guiding her? Only those who can discern the spirits can really know.

I feel that within a very short period of time the amount of false spirits in the earth and the depth of deception associated with them will be magnified ten fold.

It is going to become increasingly important for people to know how to discern false spirits and how to avoid receiving false revelations.

With this in mind, I have asked my wife if she would be willing to share an experience she had years ago;

“I WILL TELL YOU IN YOUR MIND AND IN YOUR HEART”

My experience in being deceived
By WaitingAndWatching alias Mrs. Watcher

With comments by OneWhoIsWatching

It was mid – 1980s. We had just moved from a two bedroom home into our new five bedroom home in Holiday, Utah and life was great! We now had a larger home, we had four wonderful kids and we were enjoying a very happy marriage.

My husband had recently been issued a computer by the company for which he worked. Although his personal goal had been to pass away of old age before learning how to use a computer, it had been mandated by his employer.

After finding out that it was not that difficult to use, he eventually discovered “infobases” a word crunching software program he purchased from Deseret Book that enabled him to search the scriptures. He used to lovingly refer to this computer and software program as his terrestrial urim and thummin.

He became a bit obsessed with and addicted to his new toy. There were some days he would get involved in his searching from sun up to sun down and then deep into the night.

He had a sales job with a quota. His boss said if he fulfilled his weekly quota by Wednesday, the rest of his time was his own. He spent nearly every spare minute searching the scriptures with the aid of the computer and then compiled the information and documentation of concepts he had learned into a book.

I remember a neighbor friend of mine asking me why the corner light in our house, where he studied the scriptures, was on until 2:00 in the morning so many times.

One day I went into my husband’s office and he looked at me as though he had had a profound epiphany.

He shared with me the conclusion he had come to.

I felt sick to my stomach.

He was suggesting that my religious paradigm might be wrong.

There were certain things in my belief system that I was positive would NEVER change.

Armed with the teachings of my youth and preconceived notions of “what was what” I declared;

“You are wrong”.

I then slipped away into the other room, closed the door and got on my knees to get a confirmation on what I thought the Spirit had told me.

During my prayer I got a strong spiritual confirmation that I was correct and that my husband was mistaken.

I triumphantly went back into his office and happily informed him of my confirmation.

I remember how calm he was and not even the least annoyed or threatened at my “profound answer”. He then asked me if I would be willing to do him a favor.

“What is it,” I asked.

“I would like you to read this list of scriptures, pondering them over, then go and pray the same prayer”.

I thought it was a rather strange request but had no problem doing it.

I remember saying, “Sure, fine.”

As I read the scriptures I could feel a subtle feeling taking place in my heart and in my mind, but outwardly, I was still convinced that I was right.

After finishing the passages I confidently knelt back down, knowing that the answer would be the same. Feeling somewhat defiant, I thought, “I will show him the error of his ways, I know my prayer will be answered.”

I went to my bedroom to pray. I had a spring in my step feeling like this was no big deal, I would get the answer I was expecting.

I was so sure I would be right that the consequence of if I was wrong never even entered my mind.

I was blissfully unaware that my life was about to change to a degree and manner that I never could have imagined.

This time as I prayed, I got the same strong manifestation I got before EXCEPT that this time, it was confirming just the opposite answer to me.

This time it was confirming to me that my husband’s interpretation of the scriptures was correct.

I was stunned.

I was stunned, not only that my husband’s interpretation was correct and the implications of this, but mostly, that I could be so deceived. How could I get two different answers to the same question and the exact same prayer?!?!

My mind went back to when I was 16 years old and had questioned if everything I believed in, as far as religion was concerned, was correct.

I had decided to read the whole Book of Mormon by myself and test the promise at the end of the book of Moroni. I read the entire book within a couple of months and, by myself, in my bedroom, knelt down by my bed, and asked if what I had read was true.

I received the most amazing witness with the burning in my bosom and my body and mind being illuminated and beyond a shadow of a doubt, knew it was, indeed, the word of God.

This and other experiences led me to believe that I could receive answers and would receive an answer to this current dilemma.

I fasted and prayed.

I knelt down in a depth of need from my Father that was one of the greatest needs for any answer that I had ever had. I told God;

I want the truth at all costs.

I really meant it. I didn’t care what the answer was; I just wanted to know the truth! I started reading at the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants, feeling like I would find my answer there.

As I read in the D&C, I was reminded about what the Lord had told Oliver Cowdery in sections 8 and 9. I felt as though the words in these revelations were written specifically to me concerning this incredible dilemma I was having;

D&C 9:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in your bmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right.

The Lord told Oliver that when he had a question, he needed to study it out in his mind.

The Lords statements to Oliver Cowdery helped me realize that the problem with my first prayer is that I had neglected to study things out in my mind.

I was also led to the words of Paul wherein he mentioned the importance of searching the scriptures and gaining knowledge so that I would have an accurate point of reference while studying things out in my mind;

Acts17:11

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and asearched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

The Lord also told Oliver;

D&C 8 2 Yea, behold, I will atell you in your mind and in your bheart, by the cHoly Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation…

I realized that I had to search the scriptures and know if the interpretations of the scriptures by those teachers in my youth were correct or if what my husband was presenting to me out of the scriptures was correct.

I realized I couldn’t just ask, I had to study it out in my mind by searching the scriptures and gaining knowledge first and then asking the Lord and getting an answer in my mind and feeling it in my heart.

When I had prayed about the truth of the Book of Mormon, I hadn’t just asked, I read the entire book. I followed the formula that Moroni had given me in chapter 10 of Moroni:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

I came to the conclusion that the second answer I got was the correct one because I took the time to search the scriptures and to prayerfully study it out in my mind instead of just asking.

It has now been nearly 20 years of intensive word search cross-referencing in the scriptures and I now have a much stronger testimony of the answer I got back then, I have also been blessed with a much deeper love and understanding of the scriptures. I know from my personal scripture searches that all 4 standard works testify of each other and they promise and prophecy of the same things.

I have gained a very strong testimony of the importance of searching the scriptures.

A couple of months ago a very dear person to me mentioned that he felt he was a good person and that he didn’t really need to study the scriptures. I shared the following scripture with him;

Alma 12

“9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”

As we study the Word with heed and diligence, if we will not harden our hearts against what the Spirit reveals in the scriptures, we will receive the greater portion of the word until we know the mysteries of God in full.

We seem to be receiving a pattern of which comes first. Joseph Smith frequently seemed to ask a question based on questions that would surface while he was reading or translating the scriptures and then God would answer the question. He would get the answer to the question and then God would also give him more information.

Another experience I had about 4 years after the first experience I told you about, also had a profound impact in my life in the realization of one of the ways deception and discernment works and of the importance of having a strong foundation in the Word of God in order to avoid being deceived.

Before relating this to you I want to share a statement that is in my husband’s patriarchal blessing. It says “you will not be afraid of the truth.” He has never been afraid to talk to anyone and check out their claims or facts or opinions. So much so, that I have been fascinated at the different people that he has been willing to listen to.

Some of these people I would probably have prematurely judged and discounted. But the message is more important than the messenger and as the Apostle Paul says, we need to be willing to prove all things. He has been willing to dig into the scriptures and other historical documents in order to gain a more accurate understanding of what went on in LDS Church history.

Anyway, we were invited to go to someone’s house to listen to a speaker. For the purposes of this article I will simply refer to him as “Tolman”.

We joined several other couples, one of whom was a very good friend of the speaker. This same couple had told us, as we drove to the meeting together, that Tolman was one of the most knowledgeable and spiritual people they had ever met.

We were really excited to hear this person as we had heard so much about him even before our friends invited us to the presentation. This person had created a remarkable memory system that had been marketed nationwide. He had also written several popular books.

We walked into a large room and within a few minutes he proceeded to speak to us all.

My husband was perched with legs crossed just below where Tolman was seated. His head was bent upward and it appeared he was taking in everything that Tolman was saying.

Tolman began talking about the importance of Zion and said he had felt impressed to purchase some property in Jackson County.

He then began presenting a new form of consecration that involved groups of 12 couples. Polyandry was a part of this new system that Tolman was proposing, all of the wives in each grouping were to be married to all of the husbands in the group. My heart sank as I realized what was being proposed and as I noticed my husband intently listening to Tolman, I was worried that my husband might be believing it.

As I listened to the teachings of this fellow, and to the statements he was making, I had one of the most incredible experiences of my life.

In the room, the overwhelmingly good feeling and “spirit” was so thick you could cut through it with a knife. However, different scriptures that I had studied in the last several years came to mind and proved this fellow’s teachings were not correct.

In my heart was a feeling of peace as I was assured this man was deceived and was deceiving others. I had never supposed that the spirit and feeling attending false doctrine could feel so warm and intoxicating.

I was feeling confident in my answer but as I looked over at my husband a feeling of concern enveloped me because he had a faint smile and was listening intently to Tolman.

I worried that my husband might not be having the same supernatural experience I was having. As I sat there, the Holy Ghost was putting the scriptures in my mind that disproved the false doctrines being taught and it was bearing witness to me of the truth, yet I was also aware of the charismatic aura of the speaker and the warmth of the seducing spirit everyone was feeling.

Tolman kept talking, almost exclusively to and looking at my husband. He kept making comments about how much he connected with and liked my husband and that he could tell they were going to be fast friends.

I had a heavy heart and wanted to talk to my husband in private to tell him my experience, yet people were around us and there was no opportunity.

We drove home, I in silence, and my husband chatting away with the couple that had driven us and that admired Tolman so much.

We walked into our home and I immediately went to a back bedroom and prayed to God committing myself to Him and telling Him that if my husband believed Tolman and decided to follow this strange group into the wilderness, then I would give up my husband to follow God.

It was VERY TRAUMATIC AND INTENSE.

I then asked my husband to come into the back room alone with me so I could talk to him. I asked him;

“So….. did you believe this guy?”

He said,

“are you kidding? What a bunch of BS! Of course I didn’t… that guy is going to destroy a lot of marriages”

I burst into tears of complete relief and told him that it looked like he believed the guy. He said he not only didn’t believe him but told me he had a similar experience to that which I had. He felt that intoxicating warmth of the spirit and the magnetic personality of the speaker while all of the scriptures condemning the false doctrines being taught kept going through his mind.

I was overcome with the grace of God. This Tolman fellow had such an incredibly magnetic personality and spirit, if I hadn’t known the scriptures and hadn’t been blessed with the Spirit witnessing of the error of his teachings, I would have very possibly been deceived by his message.

Although this experience was unique and extreme, I have come to realize that a similar phenomenon happens frequently in church meetings from ALL branches of Christianity.

People are seduced into believing false doctrines because of warm and intoxicating feelings.

Again, the realization that the feeling in the room could feel so good and that the message could be so wrong had never occurred to me.

The thought of how we need to study it out in our mind (facts, in this case, of how the doctrine measured up to the scriptures) and in our hearts (feelings of the Spirit) were both imperative to not be deceived. Just having one or the other would not be sufficient for a witness.

The first time I prayed about my husbands conclusion, I had been greatly influenced by the “Traditions of my Fathers” (see D&C 93:39)

How grateful I am for this incredible experience in deception that God was kind enough to let me experience. I know that we are commanded to “prove all things, hold fast to that which is good”.

This has to do with ALL teachers.

I have learned to be more concerned with the message than with the messenger.

Many well loved and trusted people in or out of the church may say things that are not true. No matter what we are “feeling” we need to compare the doctrine that they teach with the scriptures. We need to use the four standard works as the measuring yard sticks to measure EVERY man’s doctrine. As Joseph Fielding Smith’s inspired statement that he made when he was president of the church states:

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.



You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 3: 203.)

The Prophet Hosea made this profound observation;

My people are destroyed for lack of aknowledge: because thou hast brejected cknowledge, I will also reject thee… I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings…. they shall commit whoredom… for the bspirit of cwhoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God… therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit aadultery.

It was heart breaking to see the couples that were deceived by the teachings of Tolman because they were not familiar with the word of God.

Within less than a year, the attempt at Tolman’s version of consecration and Polyandry ended in heartache and the dissolution of several marriages. Many lives were shattered.

As we read the scriptures under the power of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures become our Iron Rod;

1 Nephi 15:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the arod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree?

24 And I said unto them that it was the aword of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would bhold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the ctemptations and the fiery ddarts of the eadversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.

25 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did exhort them to give aheed unto the word of the Lord; yea, I did exhort them with all the energies of my soul, and with all the bfaculty which I possessed, that they would give heed to the word of God and remember to keep his commandments always in all things.

Nephi reveals to us what the iron rod is, that it is the word of God that would protect us from blindness and that we should hold fast to it.

The Holy Spirit validates and confirms what we learn in the scriptures. The mysteries we learn will not contradict them. I would like to end this testimony of mine by witnessing that the only way to “the Love of God” which is the Tree of Life is by holding on to the Word of God. This would be the words of the prophets in the scriptures which would be the measuring yardsticks for ANY revelations by ANYONE.

I realize that some people think the word of God spoken of in the above passage is limited to personal revelation; however, I have come to believe that those who bypass studying the scriptures leave themselves wide open to be deceived when they pray for personal revelation.

New revelations would never contradict previous revelations.

Observations by OneWhoIsWatching——————————–

The experiences that Mrs Watcher has shared have had a tremendous impact on both of our lives. I have really come to realize the importance of how God speaks to our Minds and our Hearts. I think this provides a checks and balances in discerning personal revelation.

It is so easy for human beings to become lop-sided in how we receive personal revelation. Some people rely almost completely on what they are feeling in their hearts. They quickly pray for an answer without searching Gods word and searching out and pondering what they are asking God about. This leaves a person wide open to being deceived.

Others do just the opposite. They approach prayer in a very left brain way, putting lots of thought and study into it without being sensitive to the Spirit and listening to the confirmation of the Spirit. This also leaves a person wide open to being deceived.

We must combine the heart and mind as we pray so that we will get the true answer back, witnessing to both our mind and our heart.

Revelation is a sobering undertaking…

In Ezekiel the Lord states that if the Elders of Israel come to the Lords anointed prophet and ask a question when in fact, their hearts are not right before God and they are practicing idolatry, God will give them a false answer. He will actually answer them according to the wickedness of their hearts;

Then came certain of the aelders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their h eart, and put the stumblingblock of their ainiquity before their face: should I be benquired of at all by cthem? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the astumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.” Ezek 14

David Whitmer tells of an amazing experience he had with the Prophet Joseph Smith. He reveals that even Joseph Smith got deceived from time to time, he learned that some revelations come from the devil.

We were waiting on Martin Harris who was doing his best to sell a part of his farm, in order to raise the necessary funds. After a time Hyrum Smith and others began to get impatient, thinking that Martin Harris was too slow and under transgression for not selling his land at once, even if at a great sacrifice.


Brother Hyrum thought they should not wait any longer on Martin Harris, and that the money should be raised in some other way. Brother Hyrum was vexed with Brother Martin, and thought they should get the money by some means outside of him, and not let him have anything to do with the publication of the Book, or receiving any of the profits thereof if any profits should accrue. He was wrong in thus judging Bro. Martin, because he was doing all he could toward selling his land.

Brother Hyrum said it had been suggested to him that some of the brethren might go to Toronto, Canada , and sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon for considerable money: and he persuaded Joseph to inquire of the Lord about it.  Joseph concluded to do so.  He had not yet given up the stone. Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada , and that they would sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon.

Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copy-right, returning without any money.  Joseph was at my father’s house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada .

Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking.

Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: ” Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man : and some revelations are of the devil.” So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man.

When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord.” From David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p.30 – p.31 [It will be on slightly different pages in different editions of Whitmer’s pamphlet.  Emphasis added]

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21 Responses to “I WILL TELL YOU IN YOUR MIND AND IN YOUR HEART”

  1. NEPT says:

    Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Watcher. Your words, especially, Mrs. Watcher, are as the balm of Gilead in a most trying time, for last night the same fiery furnace set ablaze my home. But I am confidant that, with faith, study, and time, broken hearts will burn. You know, it’s kind of funny…last night my sweetheart told me that I needed to write a “book” for her, outlining my train of thought so that I could better convey my position. I guess history does repeat itself. Or, in other words, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

  2. NEPT says:

    And on a different but related note, I watched an interesting “documentary” by Ben Stein this evening entitled “Expelled.” He explores the blacklisting of Intelligent Design supporters from Darwinian-reinforced academia. Regardless of the particulars of ID or Darwinian evolution, he provides a platform from which we, the audience, can do exactly what JS proposes; that is, “try the spirits.” Academia, more particularly, all levels of biology (evolutionary, molecular, cellular, etc.) surely have vested themselves with “black robes of a false priesthood,” and this documentary appears to justify Dr. Nibley’s statements. It is therefore incumbent upon us to discern truth from error. Unwise decisions can lead to unwittingly horrible consequences, for individuals and whole populations, as Mr. Stein keenly demonstrates. There are some very interesting “spirits” in the film. I suggest you “try” them.

  3. cds says:

    Hello OWIW. I have wanted to ask for you your understanding of this below, I know you wrote about it in the past but can’t find the blog right now.

    30 For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me.
    31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to abuild a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
    32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
    33 For verily I say unto you, that aafter you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;
    34 For therein are the akeys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.
    35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.
    36 For it is ordained that in Zion, and in her stakes, and in Jerusalem, those places which I have appointed for arefuge, shall be the places for your baptisms for your dead.
    37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your awashings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?

    Since they did not finish the Nauvoo temple then it seems that Verse 35 would then be applicable, but then Verse 36 and 37 read to me like it just ignored what was said in 35? It is confusing to me. Also further sections would not be valid if these baptisms were not acceptable like sections 127 and 128. I look forward to your answer as I cannot reconcile these things.

  4. cds

    One of the keys to understanding modern revelation is to be able to identify when God is addressing the 2nd watch and when he is addressing the 3rd watch.

    Since God has all time, past present and future before him, he jumps from watch to watch as he speaks.

    The warning about being rejected has to do specifically with the 2nd watch and the people living at the time the revelation was given.

    Verses 36 and 37 and other verses are letting the Saints know that only the cornerstone of Zion (Nauvoo), the designated stakes like Jackson and Far West and “Jerusalem” (kirtland)are ordained for the baptisms for the dead.

    This is very important to understand because it is letting them know that if they scatter and flee from those holy places into the wilderness of Utah, they are no longer allowed to perform baptisms for the dead.

    Regarding section 128 you will notice that the dispensation of the fulness of times was just beginning to usher in… 12 years after the church was restored!

    That in and of itself is proof positive tht the dispensation of the last times that had already been ushered in and the dispensation of the fulness of times were two separate and distinct dispensations.

    Unfortunately that dispensation was hindered from being ushered in.. therefore much of what JS said in that revelation pertains to the 3rd watch, when the fulness of times is successfully ushered in.

    To get more historical insight as to how Joseph, Hyrum and the 12 were interpreting the ominous warning in sections 124 and what they were telling the Saints, please see a few pages from a book I once wrote which we have posted at the following site

    http://www.specialoffersbulletinboard.org/unfinishedtempleandnauvoohouse.htm

    Thanks for visiting

    Keep Watching

  5. cds says:

    Hi Watcher,

    Been rereading and trying to keep up with your new posts, enjoy them immensely. On this particular post I had no idea what you meant by Christopher the false prophet when I first read it. I have looked into it and it’s very appealing, because if you start with the “supposed” 116 lost pages it ties in so nicely to answer so many questions and seems to fit right in with the things you have been saying. Then I read some other stuff like his teachings on Adam and Eve and the origins of the earth and it seemed very new age to me and warning bells went off. Then I revisited my scriptures and Section 6:27 tells us that Oliver Cowdrey will be instrumental in bringing about the sealed portions. I’m playing catch up from many years of being an LDS content who followed along wihout questioning and really studying my scriptures, so bear with me. Did you read any of it and what was your first clue to being a false prophet, (it’s probably something I missed). Do you think he really believes in what he is preaching and writing or deliberately misleading people? It’s amazing to see how many scriptures he can write or receive from a deceiving spirit and make most of it fit in pretty good with history and scriptures of that time. Have you ever been to http://www.mormon.citymax.com ? He seems to be on the same ideas as you, one big thing he stresses is Jesus Christ is God and maybe that’s what you meant by cloning in your article. JS saw only one personage in his vision, which as far as I can tell is correct and was changed later. Before I went to this site my mind and heart were led to believe that BY (the “Fit Man”) did infiltrate right from the beginning and would explaing the fast fall the church had and why we strayed from the truth so fast. your newer posts seem to be leaning toward the return of somebody that won’t be acting in our best interest and I can’t wait to see who your studies have led you to, you know who I think it will be now. lol. Have you seen the other gentleman who has the sealed portion? http://sealedportion.com/book/ ? I haven’t read any of his stuff yet, but I assume unless they are claiming they are Oliver Cowdrey it won’t be inspired from the right source?
    Lastly you have read http://www.defendingjoseph.com/ blog? I’m getting that you believed that JS fully participated in the sins of his people not just masonry but polygamy too. Any possibility that as Emma and JSIII claim that he never did participate and was set up after his death to make it look like he did to justify the leadership that took over and their sin of polygamy. No offspring from all of those supposed marriages make me think he was set up. D. Michael Quinn wrote that he would have told everyone that this was a false doctrine and to burn their garments among other things. Could BY and HK join the church from the very beginning just to infiltrate it for masonry control. HK said in his biography that he never violated his masonry oaths. And then, of course, their are the, (in my opinion), the pictures of Pres Monson giving the PG to President Bush and then a few days later Professor Jones was let go from BYU when he had proof of explosives used in 911. And the other one of GBH and Dick Cheney engaged in the PG. Seeing these really broke my heart though I kind of suspected it already, there is no reason I know of that that would be given outside the temple to a Gentile other than some type of Gadianton sign to each other. I value what you have to say since you have been at this a lot longer than me, can’t wait to hear what you have to say about thses things. If it’s not something you want to post I’m at ssimonsays@aol.com.

    Thanks
    CDS

    Just looking for truth no matter where it takes me.

  6. Hi CDS

    Your comments got caught in the spam filter and I did not notice it until now.

    “On this particular post I had no idea what you meant by Christopher the false prophet when I first read it. I have looked into it and it’s very appealing, because if you start with the “supposed” 116 lost pages it ties in so nicely to answer so many questions and seems to fit right in with the things you have been saying. Then I read some other stuff like his teachings on Adam and Eve and the origins of the earth and it seemed very new age to me and warning bells went off. Then I revisited my scriptures and Section 6:27 tells us that Oliver Cowdrey will be instrumental in bringing about the sealed portions.”

    Yes Oliver Cowdery will play a part in it and also Joseph Smith holds the keys to the sealed portion. He also teaches that homosexuality is acceptable and is a celestial principle, etc.

    “I’m playing catch up from many years of being an LDS content who followed along wihout questioning and really studying my scriptures, so bear with me. Did you read any of it and what was your first clue to being a false prophet, (it’s probably something I missed). Do you think he really believes in what he is preaching and writing or deliberately misleading people? It’s amazing to see how many scriptures he can write or receive from a deceiving spirit and make most of it fit in pretty good with history and scriptures of that time.”

    I read about 3/4ths of what he wrote. There were several things that were red flags. It has been a long time since I have read his stuff. I think that when he was a security guard for the LDS Church he was able to view lots of information from disaffected members and I think that has a lot to do with his knowledge of the scriptures.

    I know that he originally was intentionally being deceptive. I don’t know what his current state is, he may be deceived into thinking he has a calling.

    “Have you ever been to http://www.mormon.citymax.com ? He seems to be on the same ideas as you, one big thing he stresses is Jesus Christ is God and maybe that’s what you meant by cloning in your article. JS saw only one personage in his vision, which as far as I can tell is correct and was changed later.”

    Yes I have been to his site and he sends me lots of emails. He contacted me several years ago and asked if he could post my “A mystical look at the LDS restoration movement” article on his website a few years ago. He has changed some things in it however, without my permission.

    “Have you seen the other gentleman who has the sealed portion? http://sealedportion.com/book/ ? I haven’t read any of his stuff yet, but I assume unless they are claiming they are Oliver Cowdrey it won’t be inspired from the right source?”

    Yes I have seen it. I really believe that when the true servants return, they will have the same high level of light and knowledge that they had in the beginning, in their writings. I think the current impostors are pretty easy to detect.

    “Lastly you have read http://www.defendingjoseph.com/ blog? I’m getting that you believed that JS fully participated in the sins of his people not just masonry but polygamy too. Any possibility that as Emma and JSIII claim that he never did participate and was set up after his death to make it look like he did to justify the leadership that took over and their sin of polygamy. No offspring from all of those supposed marriages make me think he was set up. D. Michael Quinn wrote that he would have told everyone that this was a false doctrine and to burn their garments among other things. Could BY and HK join the church from the very beginning just to infiltrate it for masonry control. HK said in his biography that he never violated his masonry oaths.”

    I have read the views of that website and other sources from the RLDS church that claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy… however from my study I think there is overwhelming evidence that he did.

    It has been documented that he did in fact have a few kids from some of his plural wives.

    Great comments… thanks for the reply!

    Watcher

  7. Steve Graham says:

    Interesting info. I am glad that you and your wife had the Spirit to warn you against what the fellow was teaching.

    I wonder about this:
    “It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.

    Why I wonder is that things have been and are to be revealed which have been kept from before the foundation of the world. If that is so, they may at least apparently go against the scriptures we now hold. Or at least against our understanding of them, which in our view would be the same thing. While a knowledge of the scriptures is certainly important, I believe that having the Spirit is much more important.

  8. Steve

    I don’t have the quote handy, but JS once said that new revelation never contradict earlier revelation.

    Although there are many things that have not been revealed yet, I am not convinced that there will be things revealed that will contradict previous truth.. it will simply broaden and amplify it.

    “While a knowledge of the scriptures is certainly important, I believe that having the Spirit is much more important”

    In theory, I agree with you, the problem is that many people think they are being led by the spirit when in fact they have contracted a lying spirit.

    I know of people who have not paid the price to search the scriptures and learn of Gods ways through his scriptures yet they claim to be very “Spiritual” people who feel they are receiving personal revelation regarding their understanding of the gospel and their personal decisions in life.

    Frankly, I am very skeptical that God allows people to bypass studying and searching the scriptures when they are literate and have the resources to own the standard works… in fact I think it is offensive to him.

    I think this is why the scriptures are so incredibly important… having said that, scripture can be interpreted falsely if we are not being led by the spirit.

    Hence, both are essential until one has reached the level of personal revelation where the scriptures are no longer necessary once one has taken the Holy Spirit as their guide and is truely recieving personal revelation from God.

    Although many mainstream Mormons probably feel they have taken the Holy Spirit as their guide and have received the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, I do not believe I have ever met anyone that has, nor do I believe there will be anyone on the earth that has until the Servants return.

    Just one heretics radical point of view.

  9. Steve Graham says:

    I agree that searching the scriptures is essential. The Savior frequently referred back to them in His mortal teachings; thus He must have spent considerable time reading and pondering them. I just think that while we may believe that we understand the scriptures, too often we do not. And we judge new revelation by our incorrect understanding of the standard works.

    Another point may be that some revelation is given on a lower level, because people simply are not ready for a fuller view of things. This is like when Brigham referred to the creation story as a child’s tale. His expanded version at least seemed to contradict the child’s tale. Is that okay? Of course it is.

    Just my 2 cents. I have enjoyed finding and reading your and others’ comments.

  10. NEPT says:

    Hey Watcher, I feel like I’m at a high school reunion going back this far into the blog posts! But a thought has been bouncing around in my head for a long time now, and I think it relates most closely to this post.

    What do you make of the “crying spirit” (this is what I call it) that pervades “testimony” meetings and the like? I don’t want to discount any influence of the HG that would lead to tears, but when I read the “testimonies” of the prophets in scripture, I don’t get the feeling that any of them were bawling. Now, I don’t mean to say that I, personally, have never been moved to tears, but I’m starting to question what spirit may have evoked them.

    I bring this up now because I just read an article where I was reminded of Glen Beck’s propensity to shed a few tears on his show. Some contend they are crocodile tears, but I wonder if they actually are genuine. Given that Mormons have that “crying spirit” tendency, I wouldn’t be surprised if good ol’ Glen was moved by the same spirit when preaching so passionately on his television show!

    Any thoughts?

  11. NEPT says:

    Not necessarily on Glen Beck, but on the “crying spirit” theory.

  12. Yes

    When I was a teenager, there was a very popular Sunday School teacher for the young adults in our ward.

    She was a master teacher who could really relate to and mesmerize the youth. She had an ability to take the scriptures and related them to modern day circumstances.

    Her class was always packed.

    She would always break down into tears after building up to the crescendo of where she was going with her topic and the whole class would follow her into tears.

    She became known as the “most spiritual person” in the eyes of many people.

    As I recall… one day while talking to my Pop who was the SP and knew her quite well, I mentioned how spiritual she was and he said, Son, don’t confuse emotionalism with spirituality… there is a big difference.

    As I grew older and got to know her much better myself I began to realize what he meant.

    I am not saying there is anything wrong with people crying in meetings or even during their testimonies or during other peoples testimonies, but I think sometimes we do confuse emotions with the true promptings and effects of the Holy Spirit upon us.

    I would venture to guess that the nature of the meetings in the early period of the church was significantly different than in our time.

  13. NEPT says:

    But what about a “crying spirit”? Certainly, emotionalism has hijacked many chapels and classrooms, but it seems to me there might be some sort of spirit that accompanies the crying that is able to convince people that what is being taught or spoken is true, similar to what you described above for Tolman.

    There are all sorts of spirits, right? You mentioned that the Jehovah’s Witness at your door was guided by the same spirit associated with the group as a whole. And to quote from above:

    …Joseph Smith points out that virtually all groups have a distinctive spirit about them. There is a specific guiding spiritual force behind every religion and virtually every group.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if many modern-day Mormons are led by a “crying spirit”.

    Have I really grown so cynical??

  14. I had not really thought about it in that context.. I think you bring up a fascinating possibility.

    It is interesting how much more they viewed things from a spiritual perspective as far as the influence of “spirits” upon us.

    Christ seemed to virtually always link illness with personal sin and demonic possession, we have been conditioned now days to not even consider such a possibility most of the time..

    The thought of a “crying spirit” makes a lot of sense.

    Although I didn’t read the article, I did see the headline regarding Glenn… and I saw his emotional and teary tribute to Gordon Hinkley when he passed and at the time I can remember thinking the whole world is getting to experience what sacrament meeting is like… LOL he reminds me a lot of the one teacher when I was young.

  15. The Glider says:

    The “crying spirit” is an interesting concept. I remember way back when in the MTC at one of those Tuesday conferences when a general authority would come to speak – an Elder was asked to bear his testimony and the guy basically cried his way through it. The GA then got up and said that it is very important that we not confuse emotional exhibitionism with the effects of the Spirit.
    I have always tried to avoid being overcome by the tears when I am feeling the Spirit. I sometimes have to pause when giving a lesson. I have nothing against tears, in fact, a good movie or music will pull ’em out pretty easily (my wife isn’t sure what to think about that – something about quiche). I personally believe that ‘crying’ detracts from the power of the Holy Ghost to testify – it distracts the receiver.
    As I write this, though, I am wondering how consistent I am in what I think because I believe that there needs to be more passion in our discussions of spiritual things and that passion is a way to ‘get through’ to folks to actually make them wake up and think about something. It’s like breaching the wall so the spirit can flow in. (the best stake conference I ever attended was when one of the twelve started pounding on the podium with his triple – woke people right up with shock that someone would actually modulate their tone when speaking on a gospel topic.)
    I believe that crying and pulpit pounding are dicey activities, though, because they can be either theatrics to get attention, or an attempt to share thoughts and feelings when perhaps you don’t know how to express yourself – and anywhere in between.
    To me it comes down to really learning to understand how I communicate with the Holy Ghost, and letting others figure it out for themselves.
    After everything I’ve said, though, I am very intrigued by a crying ‘spirit’ – what would its purpose be?

  16. It seems to me that if indeed there is such a thing as a crying spirit, it is probably used by the dark side to seduce and deceive those who are not able to distinguish between emotionalism and the true emanations of the Holy Spirit.

    But I agree with the proposition that if a person gets a little emotional, it doesn’t necessarily categorically mean that they don’t have the spirit as well.

    The bottom line is whether the true spirit of the Holy Ghost is testifying of what they are saying.

  17. Marc says:

    Watcher

    I enjoy studying with your blog. I am somewhat new to many of these ideas too.
    Can you help me with the following from an earlier comment: “He also teaches that homosexuality is acceptable and is a celestial principle, etc.”

    Who is this that you refer to?

    Also about this comment: “I have read the views of that website and other sources from the RLDS church that claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy… however from my study I think there is overwhelming evidence that he did.

    It has been documented that he did in fact have a few kids from some of his plural wives.”

    Can you direct me to any information that will help me understand this better?

    I am presently under the idea that JS didn’t practice polygamy…but I am always willing to learn. Thanks again for your help to those of us that are still walking along the rod of iron with canes!

  18. Hi Marc

    With regard to JS practicing polygamy, here are a few articles I wrote about the Nauvoo era of the LDS church specifically covering the important role that William Law played in the history of the Church. In these articles you will read about a very important book that has recently come out that provides additional documentation to the already overwhelming amount of information indicating that JS did in fact practice polygamy.

    https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/william-law-one-of-the-truly-great-men-of-the-kingdom-part-one/
    https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/william-law-looking-at-william-law-through-the-eyes-of-the-lord-part-2/
    https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/william-law-offer-a-reformation-and-bringing-about-the-chastisement-of-god-upon-the-fallen-servant-final/

    Before reading those posts however, it is important to understand why Joseph Smith ended up practicing polygamy after revealing the law of the gospel in section 42 which mandates monogamy as the celestial order of marriage.

    You can read about the Biblical profile of Joseph Smith and why he did the things he did here

    https://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/four-steps-in-losing-your-innocence-part-6-3/

    Regarding the offspring of JS it is covered in the book “In Sacred Loneliness” by Compton (although I have since read that about 50% of the children alleged to be his offspring have all been tested and failed the test so according to modern science it has not been proven and is still debatable as to whether he ever had any offspring from other wives besides Emma. I do not claim to know for sure if he had any offspring from other wives. I would like to change the statement you are quoting but cannot find it in the article.

    Lastly, the following statement is referring to Christopher Nemelka

    “He also teaches that homosexuality is acceptable and is a celestial principle, etc.”

    The false doctrine he teaches is contained in the so-called sealed portion that he claims to have brought forth. I don’t remember which chapter it is in but I personally read it years ago.

  19. Thirsting for knowledge says:

    Watcher,
    Words can not express the gratitude that I feel towards you and your wife for sharing this story. This has to be one of the most profound things I have read in a long time. It answered so many questions that I have been unable to answer for so long. It really stands as a fundamental principle that should be learned early in ones spiritual journey. This explains why I received such a strong witness to the Book of Mormon while others I know have not. When I prayed about the authenticity of the book I had been studying it and my heart was open to what the truth was, without any desires one way or the other. This also helps explain why I may have had some of the spiritual feelings at the Temple. At the Temple I wasn’t focused on whether it was correct or not. In my mind I had already decided it was correct and I had a strong desire to feel validation through a positive spiritual experience. Wow this really shows how vulnerable I am to being deceived due to the lack of time I have spent feasting on the standard works.

  20. Ryan says:

    Watcher or Mrs. Watcher,

    Would be willing to share the list of scriptures and/or church history statements that Mrs. Watcher prayed and pondered over?

    My wife is interested in learning for herself what I am learning without my influencing her in telling her what my conclusions are.

    Thank you.

  21. Ryan

    That event took place at least 25 years ago. I had been married about 8 or 9 years I think. We were not keeping a diary as we entered the twilight zone. I am not positive which scriptures I gave her to read and pray about but I think they were some of the typical New Testament apostasy scriptures we use as missionaries to prove to investigators that the New Testament Church went into apostasy.

    In my other blog I shared an experience I had speaking with a Church of Christ radio preacher whilst on my mission in the Bible Belt, it was that conversation that actually planted the seeds for me.

    You can review some of those passages of scripture in that blog post at the following link

    http://threewatches.blogspot.com/2008/09/31-let-no-man-deceive-you-by-any-means.html

    I never give advise to people LOL BUT…. You may want to take it very slowly with your wife and if it appears that it is not her appointed time of awakening, back off and don’t push any of this stuff on her.

    If it does appear to be her time, and she is receptive, go at the pace that she is comfortable with.

    BTW that particular post is the 30th evidence I provided, demonstrating that there has been an apostasy of the restored church and that there will be a last restoration in the 3rd watch. There may be others of those evidences that she may want to study, ponder and pray about…

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