For those who are Watching…

November 28, 2008

For general listing of all posts on both sites with brief description click here

This is the sister site of www.threewatches.blogspot.com

It contains deep doctrine pertaining to the LDS Restoration Movement and the Restored Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

One must first learn to swim before one enters into deep waters.

The content provided herein is for those who have been weaned from the breast and yearn for the meat. Those not prepared for the meat can choke on it.

It is for those who have contracted the spirit of watching and have made it through the “Third Watch Boot Camp” which consists of reading every numbered post in chronological order on the above mentioned three watches blog, beginning with the very first post which lays the foundation for the journey you are about to embark on.

If you make it that far and still want more information to read, this blog would be next.

If you cheat and read the information in this site first, you risk getting a big, ugly wart on the end of your nose and you will only be cheating yourself. The content in this blog will make much more sense and be much more meaningful if you lay the proper foundation first.

The deeper doctrines of the kingdom have the ability to either enhance your “testimony” of the restored gospel or expose how frail it is, based on the doctrinal and spiritual foundation you have acquired before you read this information.

Prepare for the journey of your life…. we’re not in Kansas anymore Toto

Watcher

misc articles

The Bridegroom Tarried…

Seven Shepherds and an Angel

A Mystical Look at the LDS Restoration Movement

Why have ye transfigured the Holy Word of God?

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine

We have found the Messias!

The Fulness of the Father

When the Floods come and the Winds Blow and the Rains Descend
Watching for the signs in the heavens

A Second Look at the Ten Virgins
Analysing the literal meaning and time frame of the Parable of the Ten Virgins

Searching for the Holy Order and 23 High Priests-

Part 1- Lyman Wight Sees the Father and the Son

Part 2 The Man of Sin is Revealed

Part 3- Melchizedek Priesthood required to Establish Zion

Part 4- The Highest Priesthood makes you a Possessor of All Things

Part 5- Patriarchal Priesthood Administers New and Everlasting Covenant

Part 6- The Transfiguration of Lyman Wight

Part 7- True Oath & Covenant found in True Manner of Baptism

Part 8- The Gospel of Abraham and Patriarchal Polygamy

Part 9- Three Orders of Priesthood

Part 10- Three Distinct Churches Representing Three Distinct Gospel Laws

Baneemy- The Wild Ram of the Mountains
A look at one of the most amazing personalities of the LDS Restoration Movement

The Law of Adoption and the Sealing Principles
How did the Law of Adoption and Sealing Principles evolved into “Families are Forever”?

Black and White Robes- Part One
Ancient prophesies warn that latter day Israel would be seduced into a false covenant

Black and White Robes Part Two
Ancient prophesies warn that a breach will take place between God and his people

Black and White Robes Final

“I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God”
Was it only the righteous in the pre-existent war in heaven that came to earth to go through moral probation?

BECOME ye therefore perfect? OR BE ye therefore perfect?
Did Christ really mean what he said when he commanded us to BE perfect instead of to BECOME perfect?

“I WILL TELL YOU IN YOUR MIND AND IN YOUR HEART”
How do we avoid being decieved? Intellectual knowledge? Warm fuzzy feelings? Or searching the word of God so the Holy Spirit can teach us through mind and our heart?

The Fulness of the Father
The doctrine of oneness and the Celestial Cloning of the Gods

“Bring AGAIN Zion”
Why is it that the Nephite Zion was not translated and caught up into heaven like the city of Enoch? Is it that they still have a mission to fulfill here on earth?

Peace and Safety
Right before the sudden destruction people will be saying “Pease and Safety”

The Return of Sidney Rigdon, God’s Spokesman- Part Four
Fourth and final part

The Unrestrained Ponderings and Pontifications of a Heretic
The mystical Union of the Sexes-Composite Beings- The Abrahamic Priesthood-

The Spiritual Wife Doctrine
The Celestial Law of Consecration requires the Holy Principle of Marital Monogamy


How Zion Will Be Redeemed Part 1

August 28, 2014

Christ Expounds on the Prophecy of Micah Three Times

For those anticipating the establishment of Zion, preparatory to the return of the Lord, (in glory) perhaps the prophecies of Christ in 3rd Nephi 16, 20 and 21 provide some of the most detailed and compelling narratives about how this event will take place.

The setting of these chapters is Christ’s visit to the inhabitants of America. Jesus Christ is speaking to the more righteous portion of the Nephites that were not destroyed at his coming. He blesses them and establishes his church among them.

In all three chapters, the Lord appears to be paraphrasing or quoting from an ancient prophecy in Micah that speaks of an army that treads down the unrepentant gentiles in the last days.

However the wording and context of each recital differs subtly and significantly from the other two.

tread1

In the various renditions referring to the prophecy in Micah, the Lord refers to the “House of Israel“, “House of Jacob” and the “remnant of Jacob” respectively. Although many people assume that all three terms are synonymous, I would suggest that they are not.

A contextual examination with the use of keyword comparisons will demonstrate that these three accounts are highlighting different participants from various branches of the House of Israel that will be part of the army that treads down the gentiles.

It will also demonstrate that the prophecies in Micah and Isaiah 52, dovetail with the parable of the redemption of Zion in Sections 101, 103 and 105.

People who disregard or don’t understand modern revelation are at a significant disadvantage in understanding this most important topic.

“House of Israel” – The Army of Israel”

In his first declaration in chapter 16, Christ refers to the army as being composed of the “house of Israel”. This terminology is consistent with section 105 given in Zions Camp, prophesying that the “army of Israel” will eventually become “very great

The prophecy in section 105 continues on:

“And after these lands are purchased, I will hold the armies of Israel guiltless in taking possession of their own lands, which they have previously purchased with their moneys, and of throwing down the towers of mine enemies that may be upon them, and scattering their watchmen, and avenging me of mine enemies unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

31 But first let my army become very great, and let it be sanctified before me, that it may become fair as the sun, and clear as the moon, and that her banners may be terrible unto all nations”

The above narrative is referencing the parable of the redemption of Zion and related passages given in sections 101, 103 and 105, which the Zion’s Camp expedition was attempting to fulfill. It becomes obvious in this section that even though Zion’s Camp would fail in their attempt to redeem Zion, the Lord was still going to have them fulfill the commandment and prophecy at a later time, after a little season. In fact, later in this series, we shall review a secret revelation that was given the day after section 105 was given which will shed further light on how Zion will be redeemed.

A great key in understanding how this prophetic scenario unfolds is in understanding that the first elders of the restored church who were identified with the Gentiles are also the literal “Sons of Jacob” who are heirs to the covenant according to the flesh. Although they were identified with the Gentiles, they were different and distinct from the Gentiles with regard to lineage.

More on this later.

“..Remnant of the House of Jacob”

When Christ continues expounding on the Micah prophecy in chapter 20, his slight change of verbiage reveals that he is telling the Nephites that he is speaking to, that they, “a remnant of the House of Jacob“, are literally going to be returned to the earth in the flesh, to participate in the army of Israel that goes forth treading down the Gentiles.

This explains why the Zion, set up by Christ in America, stayed on the earth for the duration of 3 1/2 generations and was not raptured up like the Old Testament Zion communities of Enoch and Melchizedek. Their calling is to remain on this earth and fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant that takes place during the Marvelous Work and a Wonder. They will unite with the returning “Sons of Jacob” to help reestablish Zion on earth. Eventually, the reestablished Zion will be caught up to meet the Zion of Enoch in the air when it comes down.

“The Remnant of Jacob”

Finally, when Christ gives a third variation of the Micah prophecy in chapter 21 of 3rd Nephi, He reveals that the army of Israel will also be  include descendents of Lehi that repent and are converted. We learn from section 109 that the term “remnant of Jacob” has specific reference to the Lamanites:

“And cause that the remnants of Jacob, who have been cursed and smitten because of their transgression, be converted from their wild and savage condition to the fulness of the everlasting gospel”

Reading Assignment

Please read chapters 16,   20, and 21  of 3rd Nephi very carefully taking nothing for granted.

Forget how you have heard it interpreted at church and don’t assume that all three accounts are referring to the “remnant of Jacob“, they are not!

Read them in the context that the wording variations are intentional and significant.

Then read the parable of the redemption of Zion and associated passages as they are contained in sections 101, 103, and 105.

Keep in mind that every unconditional promise and prophecy must come to pass, even if it means returning people from the dead, because God’s word must come to pass.

For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

My word shall not pass way but shall all be fulfilled.

In part two we will continue with what Christ tells us about the Marred Servant, that reveals Christs words, and gathers Israel.


Do you have the “Constant Companionship of the Holy Ghost”

August 24, 2014

 

In previous posts I have suggested that virtually every single major doctrine of the restored gospel has been perverted during the last four generations.

I truly believe this.

In 2nd Nephi 28: 29-32 the Lord explains that he teaches his people line upon line, precept upon precept and that he that receiveth, will be given more.

He then goes on to give a mystical warning”:

“from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

I refer to this ominous warning as being mystical because at face value, it may seem illogical to some that somebody can learn something and then have that knowledge un-learned… or somehow mystically taken way from them so that they un-know it.

How can you unlearn something?

Apparently it happens.

God can cover our eyes and make us look silly when we depart from his commandments.

The saints were taught that monogamy is God’s celestial law and that living it was required according to the law of Zion in section 42 and yet within less than a decade, a secret doctrine infiltrated the church and somehow, polygamy became the celestrial law of marriage within the church for many decades.

Eventually the practice was discontinued because of pressure from the government and now, many years later, the official church website is proclaiming that monogamy has always been the standard of marriage. This is apparently the case despite a few short temporary exceptions to the rule  caused by things that are not well understood.

It is amazing how God can take knowledge from people after they have received the truth.

even today, there are lots of people in and out of the modern church that continue to accept polygamy and the spiritual wife doctrine as God’s law.

Once a person reads and believes section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants it is as if section 42 and section 49 of the Doctrine and Covenants don’t exist, or they just don’t matter, or, that God made mistakes in those section and needed to correct himself, or, he was just kidding his people…. or, whatever.

In the New Testament it was taught that an Apostle had to be an eye witness of Jesus Christ.

Paul made it clear that he had to see Christ, even in vision, after the crucifixion in order to qualify as an apostle, so that he could testify of Christ in his apostolic calling.

This principle was reiterated to the newly chosen quorum of the Twelve in 1835 by Oliver Cowdery who admonished the Twelve to seek the face of God and warned them that their calling as apostles would not be complete until they had become eye witnesses of Christ’s resurrection.

Nevertheless, eventually, after being badgered long enough about whether they had seen Christ or not, leaders within the modern Church have declared it was no longer necessary for an apostle to be an eye witness of Christ.

It is now adequate for them to feel the promptings of the spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

The list goes on and on of how we Latter day Sainbts have unlearned that which we had previously learned.

I once began compiling a listing of all of the major doctrines that have been corrupted in the modern apostate church and was going to do a series of posts on it but got side tracked on other issues and ultimately lost interest.

Another interesting one is the proper pattern for being baptized in the church as explained in section 20, that requires the candidate to publicly “witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sinsBEFORE they are dunked.

When was the last time you attended an LDS baptism  of a convert that first stood up before the congregation and made the required public declaration prior to being baptized? (D&C 20:37)

The list goes on and on and I am not going to share an exhaustive list of false doctrines in this post.

Nevertheless, there is something that has been on my mind lately that really irritates me. It has to do with the teaching in the modern church that the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” means  to have the “constant companionship of the Holy Ghost”.

I recall countless baptismal talks, sadly, many of which I was guilty of giving, in which it was taught that those who were given the gift of the Holy Ghost would now have the “constant companionship of the Holy Ghost” as long as they were worthy.

Have you ever wondered where that teaching comes from?

Have you ever done a keyword search on that topic to be edified by all of the scriptures that teach that the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” is the ability to enjoy the “constant companionship of the Holy Ghost”?

After all, that is one of the trademarks of Mormonism, that we members of the only true church are the only ones that have the power and authority to bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is the wonderful ability for a person to have the Holy Ghost constantly present within them.

I challenge you to do a little research project. Document this teaching, then show me one verse in the scriptures that indicates that the definition of the “Gift of the Holy Ghost” is to have the “constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.”

 

 


Miscellaneous Musings #8 Sunstone Symposium 2014

August 4, 2014

 

I have just experienced three days of nostalgia by attending the Sunstone Symposium. (Warning- It is late so my spelling will be even worse than it usually is…)

My first experience with a Sunstone Symposium was in 1991 when I attended Sunstone for the first time and listened to a presentation by Ogden Kraut. Ogden Kraut (who has since passed away) was one of the most prolific writers and promoters of LDS fundamentalism.

I had become friends with Ogden back during that time frame. Mrs. Watcher and I had had Ogden and his 2nd wife Anne Wilde over to our home for a fireside and had compared notes with them.

It was a sweet surprise to see Anne at the symposium. She was walking up the Isle during the “Moderating Mormons in Cyberspace” panel so I grabbed her and reintroduced myself to her. We had a great moment doing a little reminiscing with each other about the past.

I introduced Anne to my son and she asked him if he had read any of Ogdens books. He informed her that he owned the book Ogden wrote titled the “95 thesis”, or something like that. As I recall, the book does a great job of pointing out the similarities between how Catholicism and Mormonism both eventually departed from scripture. The 95 doctrinal problems that Martin Luther nailed on the door of the cathedral were a type and shadow of the doctrinal changes that had taken place in Mormonism. One year, Mrs Watcher and I gave the book to everyone we knew as a gift for Christmas. The book did such a good job of alienating our friends and relatives that we did not even need to hand out gift the following Christmas because we no longer had any friends. LOL

Ogden’s presentation at the Sunstone Symposium back in 1991 was on the topic of the “One Mighty and Strong” which originated, in modern revelation, from a letter sent from Joseph Smith to the Saints in Zion. A portion of the letter has become canonized as scripture in section 85. The following passage from section 85 is the primary theme that Ogden Kraut addressed in his presentation:

And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God”

The Davidic Servant

We often think of the “One Mighty and Strong” as the “Davidic Servant” however there are numerous other prophetic terms and phrases that are often associated with the last great servant that will set the church in order to prepare it for Zion. Included among these are, the “one like Moses” and the last “Elias“, “the Branch servant“that is mentioned in Isaiah 11:1, (Zech 6:12), “his hand” Isaiah 11:11, “My Servant” referenced in Isaiah 42:1, 49:5, etc., etc.

Much of the content of Ogden’s presentation was taken from a book he wrote on the topic. (by the way, Bill Shepard, co-author of Lost Apostles, who also participated in a wonderful session at this recent Symposium, “, has also written about the One Mighty and Strong)

Back in 1991 Ogden agreed with me that Joseph Smith is the “one mighty and strong”. He agreed that the parable of the redemption of Zion in Section 101, provides an unconditional prophecy about how Zion is going to be redeemed once the light shines forth among those that sit in darkness. It also identifies Joseph as the lead servant that redeems Zion.

Anyone that truly wants to know how Zion is going to finally be redeemed can know how this is going to take place if they believe in the literal interpretation of the unconditional prophecies received by Joseph Smith, and have the faith to believe these unconditional prophecies about this upcoming epic event.

Section 103 is a follow up revelation to the parable of the redemption of Zion in section 101, that informs us that:

“..the redemption of Zion must needs come by POWER; Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.”

 

The Strong Man Model

 

The Holy Word of God  informs us that the Lord is going to use a “strong man” approach to establishing Zion just as he did in the days of Enoch. The term “strong man” typically refers to a person that has “great physical strength” and often “rules” using “force” and sometimes even “violence”.

 

In the scriptural and prophetic narrative, the servant of God is demonstrating miraculous, supernatural powers and leads a military conquest.

 

In the case of the one mighty and strong, this mighty servant of the Lord will be showing forth the fulness of priesthood power like Moses, Enoch and Melchizedek manifested. Enoch represented a prophetic strong man type when he was going forth in power, resulting in the establishment of Zion (BTW Section 103 reminds us that Jesus Christ will personally return with the servant(s) of the Lord’s vineyard as well. )

 

 

The parable of the redemption of Zion informs us that God’s servant will lead a military strike and will break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen

 

The Lord is going to use a man that is commanding the elements and showing forth the great miraculous power found in the fulness of the priesthood. This power will be similar to the power manifested by Moses when he led the Children of Israel out of Bondage. (The bondage the ancient Children of Israel were in pales in comparison to the bondage we are in today, and yet, few people even know that they are in bondage!))

 

Section 103 informs us that the servant of the Lord that returns in power to redeem Zion AFTER “many days” and after the enemy has “broke down the hedge” and literally “destroyed their works and broke down the olive trees“, is none other than Joseph Smith.

 

Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you.

 

According to the unconditional prophecies contained in the word of God, Joseph Smith must return and complete the gathering of Israel and the redemption of Zion. (see also Isaiah 49) This is why the Lord declared that the keys of priesthood would remain with Joseph Smith in this world and in the next, because Joseph’s calling was not completed during the second watch:

 

“Thus saith the Lord, verily, verily I say unto you my son, thy sins are forgiven thee, according to thy petition, for thy prayers and the prayers of thy brethren have come up into my ears.

 

Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keysof the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.

 

Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;”

 

Of course we have many scriptural witnesses that Joseph will return. One of the more notable ones is found in the allegory of the Olive trees in the book of Jacob. I have blogged about this before and broken the allegory down into the different time frames. Regarding the return of the Lords servant who had previously done a work in the vineyard, we read that the Lord of the vineyard sends this servant back to the vineyard again:

 

“And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard sent his servant; and the servant went and did as the Lord had commanded him, and brought other servants; and they were few.”

 

I have also discussed how the Lord has revealed, by name, who 15 of the other servants are from the 2nd watch that will return with Joseph to “gather up the strength of the Lords house“, and fulfill the prophetic commandment of the Lord in section 101 etc.

 

Break down the Hedge… destroy the works..

 

If you don’t understand what it means to break down the hedge and destroy the works that the Lords servants were overseeing in the parable of the redemption of Zion and the allegory in Jacob, I would suggest that you do a little research to see just how dire our current situation is in the church, and how desperately we need the divine intervention that has been prophesied about.

 

Integrated into your search, I would suggest considering that the tower was the Nauvoo temple (or possibly Nauvoo House- Temple) which was never finished… that fleeing from the enemy represented the leadership leading the saints in many different directions from Nauvoo despite the fact that they had been commanded to not be moved out of their place.

 

Lastly, I would suggest that the breaking of the hedge has to do with loss of the remaining priesthood the saints had in Nauvoo, and that the act of having their “works destroyed” had specific reference to the failed attempt to redeem the dead. Clearly, the works for redeeming the dead and all associated works, came to no avail and were destroyed. Note the associated warning given in section 124:31-33

 

“But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.

 

But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

 

For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me..”

 

Lots of Wannabes

 

Ogden Kraut was perhaps the most famous polygamist in modern Mormonism. He had people flying in from all over the world to consult with him and to have him perform their polygamous sealings.

 

CLAIMANTS TO THE TITLE

 

As a result of his high profile and his down to earth willingness to speak with anyone about the gospel, all of the crazy delusional wing-nuts in the LDS fringe would meet with him, so he was well connected to a lot of people.

 

During his Sunstone talk in 1991, he mentioned that he had personally known countless delusional people that had all been visited by angels and by Christ. Each of these pathetic individuals declared themselves to be the “one mighty and strong” and the “one like Moses”. Kraut also pointed out that many people had claimed that calling in the early years of the restoration movement following the death of Joseph Smith.

 

According to Kraut, the following people were among the most noteworthy “mighty ones” of the deluded, from the past until Kraut’s talk in 1991:

 

  • James Strang
  • James Brighouse
  • Samuel Eastman
  • Paul Feil
  • LeRoy Wilson
  • John Tanner Clark
  • Benjamin LeBaron
  • Joel LeBaron
  • John Bryant
  • Elden Hollis
  • Sherman Russell Lloyd
  • Frank Miller
  • Jasper No. 7
  • Art Bulla (Art is the fellow that initially agreed to debate me about the polygamy and the spiritual wife doctrines, claiming he had never lost a debate. Sadly, he didn’t lose the debate with me either since he was a no-show)
  • Alonzo Langford

 

Since the passing of brother Kraut, there have arisen a few other notable colorful personalities that suffer from delusions of grandeur. One is Christopher Nemelka. Another is Jim Harmston, who I personally knew.

 

The Time of Joseph’s return must be Near

 

I always sit up and take notice when well meaning people begin bearing their testimonies that the “one like Moses” has arrived,  or, “there is a new prophet in town”.

 

When someone rises up claiming to have a message from God and/or claiming to have been commissioned to lead people to Christ, or show people how to redeem Zion, or set the church in order, etc., I take note because Joseph Smith revealed that the devil would be setting up a part of his kingdom and sending his false prophets at the same time the true kingdom of God was ready to go forth:

 

Here is an excerpt from the discourse:

“..In relation to the Kingdom of God–the devil always sets up his Kingdom at the very same time in opposition to God,–every man who has a calling to minister to the Inhabitants of the world, was ordained to that very purpose in the grand Council of Heaven before this world was–I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that grand Council–“

Another excerpt is as follows:

“..false prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets, and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones–“

We often think of the coming of false prophets when we think of Matthew 24 because it clearly speaks of the role of false prophets at the time when the light once again shines forth during the last generation. But Joseph Smith used the German Bible to show that Matthew 24 also testifies that a TRUE prophet would arise during the last generation as well:

“..the Savior said, when those tribulations should take place, it [the Gospel] should be committed to a man, who should be a witness over the whole world, the keys of knowledge, power, and revelations, should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony to the world..”

In the discourse, Joseph alludes to the fact that it is he, Joseph, that is the one that is to be the holder of keys that is to be a witness over all the people. He also alludes to the fact that he, Joseph will be the angel flying in the midst of heaven, spoken of in the book of Revelation:

“..all the testimony is, that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people–has the Gospel of the Kingdom commenced in the last days..

I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ–John the Revelator saw an angel flying thro’ the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, &c.”

Joseph Smith then lists the signs that will be taking place when he, Joseph Smith , and his associates return to the vineyard:

  • wars
  • famines
  • pestilence
  • great distress
  • judgments
  • false prophets

“.. the Scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, &c are ready to be poured out on the Inhabitants of the Earth–John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood who should preach the everlasting gospel to all nations,–God had an angel, a special messenger, ordained, & prepared for that purpose in the last days–    (quoted Rev. 14-6 having the Gospel saying the hour of his Judgment is come.)

Joseph then prophesies that the man or set of men (false prophets) that have already set themselves up as the appointed servants to set the church in order, will lift their hands against God and his witness and, if possible, will deceive almost the very chosen ones:

 

Woe! Woe! be to that man, or set of men, who lift up their hands against God and his Witness in these last days.–for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones–“

Joseph Smith taught that his return to the earth, to give his final testimony, would be accompanied by the rising up of false prophets who would deceive “almost” the very chosen” ones.

That is why I sit up and take notice when a new “One Like Moses” wannabe begins claiming that Christ and angels have commissioned him to bring a message about Zion, etc to this wicked world.

I have wondered if in fact the last great imposter would be a little different type of person than the typical ones that have risen in the past. Many of the ones in the past have been poor and lowly types with relatively little money or worldly education. For this reason, they were not appealing to the wealthy or the highly educated intellectuals.

But what if a false prophet showed up, that was a highly educated and highly respected professional type that would be much more acceptable to the more sophisticated in today’s world?

What if he were a doctor or a lawyer that was a great thinker and eloquent orator with great confidence and charisma?

What if he began challenging God’s word on how Zion was going to be established and yet he was so smooth and persuasive that he could convince people to discard the truth so clearly laid out in the word of God?

What if his main emphasis was a “how to” see the Savior instead of warning EVERYBODY to REPENT and receive the true baptism?

When the light shines forth for the last time, everybody on the earth is going to need to repent and receive the true ordinance and start from the beginning with faith and repentance. It is impossible to use the false ordinances and doctrines of Mormonism as a springboard for getting the Second Comforter! The assumption that we don’t need to repent is critical for deluded people to think that they simply need to exercise faith and they can see God.

What if much of what this person is saying is not congruent with the true gospel found in the scriptures? Remember how all of Adam and Eve’s posterity quit believing the gospel Adam and Eve had taught them once Satan claimed to also be a son of God and told them to not believe?

 

And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

 

And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

(yes, that is right, Eve also preached the gospel to their posterity, not just Adam. Emma was also promised that she would be ORDAINED to preach the gospel: “And thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures, and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit” (I point this out to keep all of the feminist stoners happy ;)  )

What if a successful, articulate, charismatic fellow came among the people and began preaching a different gospel and was able to mesmerize people into disregarding many of the true points in the scriptures by mingling selected passages with his own narrative?

What if he claimed that priesthood authority was not necessary to administer the ordinances of salvation even though God’s word teaches it is categorically necessary?

What if he began claiming that Zion would not necessarily be established in the designated places identified in scripture?

What if he challenged the strong man narrative so clearly laid out in scripture and convinced people to believe in a different protocol for establishing Zion instead of the protocol provided in the  word of God?

It is easy to get sucked into the belief that someone who is speaking to God is more credible than the lowly voice of warning coming from someone who simply quotes scripture, even though the person claiming to be speaking directly to God, is contradicting scripture!

What if he was to declare “A “strong man” model is the opposite of Zion” even thought prophecy teaches that Zion can only be established by someone endowed with power from on high?

What if he continued teaching the false doctrines that Joseph taught in Nauvoo, which contradicted the “thus sayeth the Lord ” teachings revealed during the Kirtland era?

We know that according to ancient prophecy, Joseph had his eyes covered, had the sins of latter day Israel placed upon himself and spoke “presumptuously”, delivering the Saints over to Satan for a little season which resulted in false doctrine being taught that contradicted the foundational doctrines, ie, the King Follett discourse completely contradicts Lectures on Faith. What if the false prophet foolishly continued teaching those falsehoods to tickle the ears of his hearers?

What if he denied that God is from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning of days or end of years and began teaching the heresy that there are other numerous numberless Gods above God the Father, even though the Father has declared that there is no other God beside him?

What if he could sway public opinion in his favor by getting highly popular LDS fringe bloggers to begin promoting him to their readers?

What if he was to write an impressive book detailing the problems with modern Mormonism, filled with doctrinal errors, and inaccurate historical dates and characterizations, yet was unwilling to respond to or acknowledge those specific problems when exposed by critics?

What if he were to question the historicity of one of the most significant and foundational visitations that took place during the LDS restoration movement?

Anyway, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the last great false prophet is much more palatable to the tastes of the scripturally ignorant, yet highly “educated” masses than his past predecessors… but I digress, I wanted to briefly share some brief thoughts and experiences I had at Sunstone.

I am not going to give a detailed analysis or even a summary of the content in the sessions I attended. Rather, I am simply going to randomly share a few impressions and thoughts that came to me while attending the symposium.

Moderating Mormons in Cyberspace

I enjoyed the “Moderating Mormons in Cyberspace” session. Of particular note, Andrew Spriggs was a bright, witty, engaging personality that was fun to listen to. It was also fun to see and hear from Rock Waterman of PureMormonism who is always quite outspoken.

Interestingly, John Hamer was sitting in back of me and I got to chat briefly with him. He was familiar with my blog and remembered chatting with me in the comments section of his Mormonstories interview. (John Hamer, Mike Quinn, William Sheperd and every other credible LDS historian all agree that Joseph Smith secretly practiced polygamy. The evidence is overwhelming. That is why the RLDS Church finally decided to reinvented itself and take their emphasis off of Joseph Smith. Yet some people still think there was a global conspiracy by Brigham Young to blame the practice on Joseph Smith even though he never practiced it.

During the free lunch sponsored by Signature Books, I randomly sat down by a guy in a crowd of several hundred people and started chatting with him… before long it occurred to me that he was one of my old online friends that used to comment quite a bit on my blog. It was fun to get to know him better and have a face to associate with a screen name! We picked several of the same sessions to attend because great minds think alike.

 

One of the best sessions I attended was the one titled “The Latter day Apostasy: A scriptural perspective” done by “Spek” (Joe Jensen) author of the Just and true blog. He did a SPEKtacular job. It was the only session wherein the scriptures were exclusively used as the foundational basis for what was being presented. It proved to be a novel approach for a Sunstone presentation.

“Sealing and salvation in early Mormonism: Perspectives on the law of adoption” was an interesting session wherein feminist Cheryl L. Bruno debated with polygamy enthusiast Brian C Hales about how the mystical law of adoption is supposed to work.

As you all probably know, after the death of Joseph Smith, the apostate apostles in Nauvoo started running around trying to seal as many men and women to themselves as possible thinking it would give them greater power and glory than their fellow apostles in the afterlife if they could recruit more people to be part of their own spiritual tribe. Brigham Young even called all of his sealed minions together and named them the “Tribe of Brigham”.

It was kind of like a multilevel marketing pyramid that was trafficking in souls instead of snake oil and money. Everyone was frantically trying to build their spiritual “down-line” in hopes of gaining more power and glory. The New Testament refers to the situation as a “strong delusion”.

I was amazed that both of the presenters have spent so much time and energy trying to figure out something that originated primarily from Brigham Young and yet, Brigham Young himself was clearly clueless about the concept and simply improvising to keep everyone in tow.

I found it interesting that both of these people conveniently neglected to mention the visitation Brigham Young claimed to have with Joseph Smith in a dream, wherein Brigham admitted that he and the brethren didn’t understand the concept and needed a little help understanding it.

During the Q&A I got up and asked both presenters o comment on the content of the dream in that I felt it clearly showed that Brigham Young was clueless about the law of adoption.

In the dream Brigham Young said to Joseph:

“The Brethren have a great anxiety to understand the law of adoption, or sealing principles; and if you have a word of council for me, I should be glad to receive it.”

Of course Joseph refused to dignify the question with a direct answer but instead told Brigham to tell the saints to be humble and faithful and to keep the spirit of the Lord…. bla bla…

Here is a post I wrote on the topic years ago

At the end of this session, I crossed paths with the notorious Jeremy Runnells who wrote the controversial Letter to a CES Director, so I took the opportunity to shake his hand and tell him that I enjoyed his paper. I then said with a smile, “I disagree with your conclusions, but I enjoyed reading your paper”. He smiled back and nodded his head and we parted in peace.

I enjoyed “Authors Meet Critics: The Lost Apostles”. My favorite historical takeaway from the book is how the first person called by the three witnesses to be a member of the quorum of the twelve apostles was Phineas Young, but Joseph intervened and replaced Phineas with his brother William Smith, who proved to be an embarrassment to himself and the church. Since Phineas was older than all of the other apostles, he would have been the president of the quorum and that would probably have very significantly changed the trajectory of the church and the outcome of the succession crises, etc! Had Joseph never interfered with those that had received the commission to choose the apostles, the church may well have never heard about blood atonement or the Adam-God doctrine or any of the other absurd heresies that BY introduced into the apostate church.

An unrelated but interesting historical issue that came up afterwards, while I was speaking to Bill Shepard- he informed me that the complete affidavits of Thomas B Marsh and Orson Hyde, were now available online. Here is the pertinent portion of the Marsh declaration that brought persecution upon the church and got them expelled from the state:

“… Hogs were brought in dead, but I know not how many; I saw only two. They have among a company consiting of all that are considered true Mormons, called the Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of the Church in all things, that they say or do, whether right or wrong. Many, however, of this band are much dissatisfied with this oath, as being against moral and religious principles. On Saturday last, I am informed by the Mormons that they had a meeting at Far West, at which they appointed a company of twelve, by the name of the Destruction Company, for the purpose of burning and destroying; and that if the people of Buncombe came to do mischief upon the people of Caldwell, and committed depredations upon the Mormons, they were to burn Buncombe; and if the people of Clay and Ray made any movements against them, this destroying company were to burn Liberty and Richmond. This burning was to be done secretly, by going as incendiaries. At the same meeting, I was informed, they passed a decree that no Mormon dissenter should leave Caldwell county alive; and that such and that such as attempted to do it, should be shot down, and sent to tell their tale in eternity. In a conversation between Dr. Avard and other Mormons, said Avard proposed to start a pestilence among the Gentiles, as he called them, by poisoning their corn, fruit, &c., and saying it was the work of the Lord; and said Avard advocated lying for the support of their religion, and said it was no harm to lie for the Lord!! The plan of said Smith, the Prophet, is to take this State; and he professes to his people to intend taking the United States, and ultimately the whole world. This is the belief of the Church, and my own opinion of the Prophet’s plans and intentions. It is my opinion that neither said Joseph Smith, the Prophet, nor any one of the principal men, who is firm in the fiath, could be indicted for any offecne in the county of Caldwell. The Prophet inculcates the notiion, and it is believed by every true Mormon that Smith’s prophecies are superior to the law of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he should yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; that if he was not let alone, hew ould be a second Mahomet to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean; that like Mahomet, whose motto, is treating for peace, was ‘Alcoran or the Sword,’ so should it be eventually with us, ‘Joseph Smith or the Sword.’ These last statments were made during the last summer. The number of armed men at Adam-on-diahmon was between three and four hundred. “ Thomas B. March.

According to Shepard, Marsh was accurate in everything he stated and he never recanted anything in the statement. His sin was in telling the truth.

“Apologetic Ethics: Defending the Faith without Losing Your Soul”

In this presentation Seth Payne appeared to be encouraging LDS apologists to change their tone and strategy in how they debate with skeptics.

“Church Discipline: A procedural Overview

Nadine Hansen is a feisty attorney who wrote the legal brief for Kate Kelly which was submitted to her Bishop and Stake President. She did an eye-opening job of showing how the church violates their own rules of disciplinary procedure, let-alone the procedures provided in revelation. It was a great session.

Perhaps the most significant procedural takeaway is that the “judge” of the court is not supposed to be the “accuser” also, yet in Modern corporate Mormonism, the Bishop or Stake President that presides at the court acts as both judge and accuser.

Another session I attended which I cannot remember the name of, involved Paul Toscano and Mike Quinn. Although I think the world of Quinn as a credible historian, he presented a rather weak and illogical presentation on why people should stay in the church in my opinion. He claimed that the church facilitates us in serving others. He acknowledged that he could go volunteer at a soup kitchen, but he was too self centered and selfish to do so. He said he had never done such a thing and likely never would… Therefore, church membership is good because it helps people to be of service to others who are otherwise unwilling and unmotivated to be proactive in serving others….. Huh?

I could listen to Toscano nonstop because he is so funny, entertaining and relevant. At one point he said something to the effect of, “I wish the Twelve Apostles would simply go out into the world and preach the gospel as a traveling missionary quorum like they have been commanded to do. When they hang around Salt Lake, all they do is irritate people.” LOL, LOL, LOL

I attended a panel discussion on demanding financial transparency from church headquarters that was excellent. I was extremely impressed with everyone that participated on the panel. They were all very bight, passionate people who had done their homework. Obviously, they are pissing into the wind if they think the church will ever provide full transparency. How can a church that spends money on paid shills to influence public opinion be expected to provide transparency on how they spend their money?

The very last session I attended was “Cutting Down the Tree of Life to Build a Wooden Bridge” by Denver the Snuffer.

My first born son and Mrs Watcher were able to attend and it was very interesting. Snuffer is a gifted thinker and orator. He was providing historical context to how and why doctrine has changed in the past and why it will continue to change in the future based on social trends and potential threat of tax status.

He did a remarkable job.

I felt sorry for the respondent who tried to challenge the supposition Snuffer made that gospel fruits are no longer in the church. He felt that the church was being blessed by all of the special interest groups that are gaining acceptance and traction in the modern church… go figure.

As an added bonus to the session experience, Snuffer took off his “independent historical researcher who was giving a presentation at a symposium of liberal Mormons” hat, and put on his “prophet” hat during the Q and A.

A person asked a question that sounded something like: “why can’t we get a complete sentence from God when we pray to him?”

That was all Denver needed to begin proclaiming how he has been visited by God and angels. I don’t know if the person was a “plant” or if she simply felt inspired to ask the question, but that question gave Denver the opportunity to let everyone know that he has heard a complete sentence from God!

It was somewhat of a crowd-pleaser of a presentation in my opinion.

It would be interesting to know how many of the approximate 3oo attendees were Snufferites that follow him around in mindless adoration and how many of them were Sunstone “intellectuals” who were boredd and wanted to be entertained. My guess is about 80% followers and 20% Stoners… but that is pure conjecture.

I enjoyed my visit to Sunstone this year/ I am really glad I attended…  however, it may be another 23 years before attend another one. Perhaps I will attend again if Joseph returns and decides to speak there


A Sobering Look at Section 50

July 8, 2014

false spirits1


Miscellaneous Musings # 7 The Kinderhook Plates were Authentic

June 26, 2014

Praise God for people like this woman

 

 The Second Anointing

I got the following email from a reader of this blog the other day:

Thank you for your recent post. I love how you can pull the scriptures into modern scenarios like you did with Isa. 3:11-12.

I don’t support the whole Ordain Women movement.  However, if I were to, I’d approach it from a completely different angle to really force the Church to squirm.
I’d ask for equality in the priesthood.  However, I wouldn’t ask that the church change it’s policy to ordain women.  I’d ask the church to make it’s 2nd anointing more accessible.  Because it’s there where the women are ordained and given the privilege to lay their hands on their husbands and pronounce blessings.
I would make it an issue of equal access.  This would bring to light something that many members don’t know about and it would put the church in an tight spot about hiding or granting this to only a select few.”
.
This was my response, although I have modified it a little upon further reflection:
.

“Very interesting thoughts, XXXX.

I think your idea is brilliant and may have some potential. (of course women already have the right to lay their hands upon people and give them blessings IMO)

Nevertheless, the anointing/ordination is an interesting idea.

A long time ago I acquired, through the Mormon underground, a listing of all of the men and their wives in the last century, that had been called in by the First Presidency and received their 2nd anointing (2nd endowment) along with some interesting related information about when the practice stopped.

In the document, it had the suggestion from a GA who petitioned the first presidency to begin the practice again after it had become a dormant practice for many years.

For years they stopped the practice… then they recently began doing it again and of course, it eventually blew up in their face with the guy (that now runs Mormonthink) that became angry when he and his wife did not have the experience they were anticipating.

I have noticed that some people seem to use the terms “second endowment” and “second anointing” interchangeably.. generally, however, I think the second anointing is a blessing (earthly ordinance typically performed by the president of the Church) with a promise of exaltation, while the 2nd endowment is usually associated with getting one’s calling and election from a personal appearance from the Savior.

(Had the brethren given the second anointing to the Mormonthink guy, with a clear and proper explanation of what he was getting, instead of having him anticipate the second endowment and a personal audience from the Savior, perhaps the whole thing would not have blown up in their face and he would still be a member in good standing today.)

Again, if your idea is to have them ramp up the physical earthly ordinance of second anointing from the President of the Church, for the purposes of giving women a priesthood ordination, it is intriguing. It would certainly increase loyalty and passion on the part of those receiving the ordinance as well as an increased effort by those seeking the ordination, not to mention, alleviating the pressure from the ordain women movement, to have the priesthood ordination. Your idea could be a stroke of genius. ( I may bring this idea up to Tom Monson in my next visit with him!)

It would need to be the second anointing instead of the promise of the second endowment to avoid generating disappointment from a heavenly “no show”, such as was experienced by the Mormonthink guy.

Another danger, of course, is that if the calling of the candidates is not conducted on a very high level of inspiration, it could back fire in several different ways and create doubt about the inspiration being employed by the President of the Church.

Also, since the First Presidency does not receive the level of revelation that Joseph received, and they do not receive “thus sayeth the Lord” revelations, and since they don’t know most members of the church at the local level, they would need to rely heavily on recommendations from local bishops and Stake Presidents.

This would probably necessitate the categorical bestowal of the second anointing on every Stake President and Bishop since it would make little sense to give the stewardship of choosing worthy candidates for the second anointing, to someone who is themselves, is not yet worthy. This is of course problematic, since there is no doubt a few Stake Presidents and Bishops that are thiefs, rapists and murderers, etc. LOL (just kidding… sort of)”

 

 

Strangers in Zion

 

 

This same person that sent that email, also sent me the following link regarding a movement to support Kate Kelley:

 

http://strangersinzion.org/

 

 

After reviewing the email, this was my response, again with a few minor changes upon further reflection:

“Thank you for the link.. very interesting. 

It seems kind of cheesy and presumptuous to encourage people to give up their memberships in support of another person’s issues with priesthood ordianation… it assumes that others also don’t value their memberships very much.. but then, that is probably indicative of the demographic they are addressing…  to me it seems that the only takers, if any, would be disaffected people that seldom if ever go to church and do not desire active membership and don’t pay their tithing, hence, very little collateral damage to the church.

 

I noticed that the website has a feature that enables a person to find out who their local bishop is. That would indicate that they are largely targeting inactive and disaffected members.

 

It actually might be a blessing to the church, to cut these people off from the membership records. By getting rid of all of the angry, inactive, critical members that are conducting their criticisms under the cloak of “member in good standing”, the church would be less adversely affected in the court of public opinion and become more strengthened, in my opinion.

 

The other problem with the concept is that it is encouraging people just like John and Kate to proactively ask for courts and give up membership, when  in fact John and Kate were fighting to maintain membership… seems counter-intuitive to me.

Letter to a CES Director

 

I am working on a book that may or may not be published in my life time. In one of the chapters I am going to review the issues in Jeremy Runnells letter to a CES Director. I am doing this not only because I think someone needs to provide some answers for those that are truly seeking them, but because it is a great platform for highlighting some principles regarding Biblical Christianity that many Mormons and Protestants are unaware of.

I plan on presenting a pie chart divided into three categories that his listing of troubling issues fall into.

Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm

One category has to do with science related issues. I will show that God has given a very strict set of parameters by which to judge truth, and science does not happen to be one of them. Indeed, the Lord places a cursing upon those that base their spiritual faith in God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ in empirical evidence and the worldly learning of men, and modern science, which has become God to many people.

Your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.

A second category in the pie chart will have to do mainly with morality issues, false doctrines and false spiritual gifts that Joseph Smith and others were accused of displaying. All of these are explained by the prophecy embedded within the atonement statute.

Legitimate Questions

All other issues listed in Jeremy’s Letter to a CES Director would fall into a third category that I consider to be legitimate questions that need to be researched.

All of these faith challenging questions have faith promoting answers in my opinion, if researched under the influence of the spirit. I will cover these answers in my book.

Critical thinking that rests upon the foundation of faith, while seeking the Holy Spirit as one’s guide, is an important part of Gospel study. That is why I appreciate thoughtful people like Jeremy and the Tanners. There is nothing wrong with asking questions and challenging people to respond with answers.

IMO, people like Jeremy and the Tanners play an important role in this mortal probationary test. Nevertheless, IMO they will very possibly never find any answer to their questions very acceptable because they have made their decision and they have a lot invested in their stance. This saddens me.

I Believe the Kinderhook Plates are Authentic

One of the issues Jeremy brought up in the Letter is the Kinderhook controversy which I assume everyone that reads this blog, knows about.

While pondering which category the Kinderhook fabrication should go into on the pie chart, it occurred to me that a few months ago I would have had to deliberate on which of the first two categories I have listed, would have been the most appropriate, since it involves scientific analysis and also appears to put into question Joseph’s ability as a prophet and seer.

However, my opinion has greatly changed since then. I would now put it in the third category.

I think the response to this issue has now been addressed pretty well.

Let me explain-

While visiting Nauvoo a few months ago, I had an amazing epiphany about the controversial Kinderhook Plates.

First of all, let me admit that I had never done any previous serious research regarding the supposed Kinderhook fabrication, which, at face value, seemed to show that Joseph Smith was fooled by an unscrupulous forger.

It is unclear who forged the plates. They were supposedly found by a merchant by the name of Robert Wiley who was inspired to look for them because of a dream..

The reason I had bought into the traditional storyline that Joseph Smith had been fooled by a fabricated ancient artifact, is because the prophetic “atonement statute” narrative and the Book of Mormon version of Isaiah 29:10  testifies of and allows for the fact that Joseph had his eyes covered on several things during the last part of his ministry and very possibly produced multiple false revelations..

I have made my beliefs clear regarding the false revelation on the spiritual wife doctrine and some of the content in the king follett discourse…. hence, I was at peace on the issue, having simply assumed that Joseph had been fooled regarding the Kinderhook plates.

That all changed after my visit to Nauvoo.

After visiting the site which I believe to be the ancient city of Zarahemla, directly across the river from Nauvoo, I became aware of several ancient burial mounds located in or just north of Nauvoo City proper, which I visited.

It was fun to realize that Nauvoo was located smack dab in the middle-diddle of some pretty amazing ancient historic Book of Mormon sites.

For many years, while I have been pondering and writing about the historical and prophetic significance of Nauvoo, I had been unaware that the general geographical area had huge historical significance with regard to the Book of Mormon peoples. I had already determined that Kirtland did, and I had speculated about Zarahemla in my 1992 booklet, but, beyond the possibility of Zarahemla, I was unaware that any burial mounds with ancient artifacts had been discovered close to Nauvoo.

While pondering these things during my stay there, and reading a few books that I obtained, I became aware of another thing I had not been aware of.

It turns out that the area of Kinderhook, in Pike County Illinous, which is also quite close to Nauvoo, has a proven history of having ancient artifacts. I had not previously realized that. I simply thought the guy that brought the plates to Joseph lived in a geographical location that had no history of ancient artifacts.

Furthermore, Kinderhook is not all that far from where the Joseph had discovered the remains of the white Lamanite warrior named “Zelph” was located.

It was amazing to realize how rich the general area is in producing evidence of ancient Book of Mormon related civilizations.

  • Ancient city and temple site of Zerehemla across the river from Nauvoo
  • Ancient burial mounds north of Nauvoo
  • Kinderhook plates and other artifacts discovered just south of Nauvoo
  • The remains of the warrior Zelph

All of this information began to substantiate in my mind, the possibility that perhaps Joseph was not fooled by a forgery..

While pondering all of these things, a very strong impression came upon me which basically said, “The plates were authentic….Joseph’s claims about the content of the artifacts were accurate.”

This was really quite an exhilarating thought that I wanted to blurb about in this blog diary of random musings, but I realized that those factors that I had become aware of, and the impression I had had, would be less than compelling to other people, so, I simply shelved the impression.

Shortly after getting back from my trip I got an email from an Aussie friend of mine who sent a link to a recent presentation given by Wayne May which absolutely blew my  mind and provided a second witness to the impressions I have had.

In the presentation, Wayne May provides what I consider to be compelling proof that the Kinderhook Plates were not a forgery.

 

wayne may kinderhook

You can click on the above graphic to see the entire presentation on youtube.

The Kinderhook part of the presentation starts at about 48:30 and goes to 100:40. I would start a little earlier, at about 43:00. Better yet, watch the entire presentation.. it is fabulous.

He gets into some pretty thought provoking stuff about Ham, the priesthood, the Jaradites, etc. Be prepared to have a paradigm change on a few doctrinal issues.

 

[One last thing.. those of you who have prayed for Jade have made a huge impact in her life. The Lord has heard your prayers and the prayers of her family and loved ones and she has been blessed. They asked me to thank all of you that prayed for her. Her last surgery went well and she is progressing.

On a similar note, the guy that shared this information with me about Wayne May's presentation has been suffering with severe migraine headaches for over 20 days in a row and has had a cat scan that does not indicate what the problem is.

Please join with me in praying for him. My personal belief is that old scratch is trying to silence him because he is a very gifted, knowledgeable, follower of Christ who has made a positive impact in people's lives by sharing his knowledge and testimony of the Gospel.

Please take a minute the second you get through reading this, and join with me in praying for this humble man..... THANK YOU!]

 


Miscellaneous Musings # 6 Jeremy Runnells

June 24, 2014

 

MormonStories Interview with Jeremy Runnells

 The Church has recently made the public declaration:

“When some members attempt to change clear church teachings to fit their personal preferences and encourage others to follow them, doctrine needs to be clarified so that others are not misled,”

After watching the interview with Jeremy and not seeing any semblance of neutrality on the part of John Dehlin, who basically did a tag team broadcast with Jeremy Runnells challenging the validity of the LDS Restoration Movement, if John is not EX’d, then I think everyone can now safely assume that there will be no further courts for apostasy… the coast is now clear to openly criticize and recruit people away from belief in the restoration with the consequence of a church court. However, those like Kate Kelly, who apply pressure on the church to change doctrine by staging marches, may still be at risk.

The MormonInterpreter Post about Jeremy

I recently posted the following comment over at MormonInterpreter:

During the last few decades of studying the history and doctrines of the church I would have to say that some of the most thought provoking and faith promoting information I have come across has been motivated by books and publications that I have purchased from the Tanners.

They have the ability to present controversial information that seems faith destroying on the surface, yet when deeply researched, “the rest of the story” that can be unearthed by personal study, becomes illuminating and testimony strengthening.

For this reason, I love the Tanners for the great service they have provided. My gospel study has been greatly enhanced thanks to them. Despite the fact that I have arrived at the opposite conclusion that they have, with regard to the origins of the LDS Restoration Movement, I have appreciated their efforts and I believe the intent of their hearts has been pure.

I have never questioned the sincerity of the Tanners or the integrity with which they have conducted their research. I loved the story Sandra shares about how Jerald questioned the Mark Hoffman forgeries that put the church in a negative light, despite the fact that it would have strengthened their own position. I think that is a fair demonstration of his integrity.

I feel the same way about Jeremy Runnnells. I think he is sincere and full of integrity. By his own admission, he is not the original researcher on any of the stuff he has accumulated. He nevertheless has done a stellar job of aggregating and eloquently articulating many of the troubling issues that skeptics have proffered over the years.

Like the Tanners, Runnells has strengthened my faith by forcing me to find answers to some questions that had never occurred to me.

One example I would share has to do with the question of why did the BofM contain passages from the King James Version of the Bible with mistranslated passages that would later be corrected in the Inspired Version.

I would suggest that even though the BofM brings to light some deficiencies in the KJV of the Bible and even though Joseph was commanded to revise and correct the existing translation in 1830,(section 35) the Lord had previously declared that the Book of Mormon proves that “..the holy scriptures [Bible] are true” (Section 20) That is a pretty good endorsement of the existing KJV of the Bible of that day.

After section 20 declared that the holy scriptures were true, it pontificated on doctrines having to do with justification and justification and then referenced the revelations of John and the Holy Scriptures, as a credible source for the suppositions:

“And we know that these things are true and according to the revelations of John, neither adding to, nor diminishing from the prophecy of his book, the holy scriptures, or the revelations of God which shall come hereafter by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, the voice of God, or the ministering of angels.”

It then admonished those ordained to the priesthood to:

“.. confirm those who are baptized into the church, by the laying on of hands for the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, according to the scriptures..”

As you can see, the Bible, as it currently existed, was to be used as the official manual for administering the saving ordinances.

After section 20 testified that the holy scriptures were true, it used the holy scriptures as a credible source for teaching the doctrine of justification and sanctification, and used the holy scriptures as a guide for baptizing people into the church, it referred church authorities to the scriptures for dealing with transgressors:

“Any member of the church of Christ transgressing, or being overtaken in a fault, shall be dealt with as the scriptures direct.”

Within less than a year after this revelation was given, and over a year before the bible translation was supposedly finished, the law of the gospel was given on February 9 1831 . According to the law of the Gospel, the existing, un-revised, King James Version of the Bible became binding upon the saints, until the inspired revision should be completed and published to the world:

“Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, WHICH ARE IN THE BIBLE and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

And they shall observe the covenants and church articles to do them, and these shall be their teachings, as they shall be directed by the Spirit.
And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

And all this ye shall observe to do as I have commanded concerning your teaching, until the fulness of my scriptures is given.”

As you can see, according to the law of the gospel contained in section 42, the Elders and Teachers were to teach out of the existing, un-revised Bible. It was fully acceptable and binding upon the church the way it was translated.

We know that God has infinite foreknowledge and he obviously knew that Joseph would not successfully publish, canonize and send the inspired version of the Bible to the world during his ministry, has he had been commanded, yet God saw the need, according to his perfect wisdom, to give the saints the law of the Gospel and to make the existing Bible binding upon the Saints until the Inspired translation would be available.

In section 45 Joseph would be commanded to not teach from the Inspired Version until it was successfully published and canonized.

Hence, in my feeble mind, it makes perfect sense that God wanted the saints of the restored Church to accept the imperfect King James Version of the scriptures along with the Book of Mormon and revelations received by Joseph Smith as the official canons of scripture during that generation all the way up to our generation. His revelations made it clear that if the existing Bible was read in conjunction with the Book of Mormon and the Holy Spirit, it was adequate.

It therefore would have been entirely inconsistent with Gods own word and will, for the Book of Mormon to have contradicted God’s plan for the Saints, by providing a differing translation other that the KJV passages in the BofM.

Doing so would have created cognitive dissonance and the passages in the BofM would have to have been discarded in favor of the KJV since they were not endorsed as the approved text to use pending the forthcoming Inspired Version.

A really disturbing problem, in my mind, would have been if the Lord had provided a differing translation of the Bible in the Book of Mormon that was not congruent with what was binding upon them. (In all fairness, it should be noted, that there are a few places in the BofM that provides a corrected passage that would later be included in the Inspired Version. Even though God was not willing to let JS teach from the inspired translation, God himself obviously did have some things he wanted to share. For some reason, the paper done by Jeremy failed to note that there were some passages from the upcoming Inspired Version. I am not accusing Jeremy of intentionally leaving this important fact out of his paper… I suspect he was not aware of this fact. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the Bible passages were left in the KJV format to provide for general consistency)

Furthermore, the saints had been commanded multiple times in ancient and modern revelation to SEARCH the scriptures. Comparing similar keywords within passages is an essential aspect of being able to search the scriptures, regardless of whether one is doing manual searches or computerized searches.

If a differing translation of Bible passages had been provided in the BofM, than the contemporary Bible they had been commanded to use, the ability to search would have been significantly compromised.

It is truly remarkable to me that God provided consistency in the inspired content of the Book of Mormon by providing the version of the Bible that would be binding upon the Saints. (It should be noted that the Book of Mormon acknowledges that it has errors in it and that it represented the “lesser” part of the gospel and that “greater things” would be forthcoming when the gentiles repent.)

I have found similar answers in the other questions raised in the paper that Jeremy has put together.

Thank you Jeremy for your diligent research into the problems that skeptics have found with the Book of Mormon and providing a great question from which faith promoting research could be generated.. I believe God wants all of us to employ principles if critical thinking as  we study the Gospel. As Paul says, we must prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. providing a great question from which faith promoting research could be generated.

PS

I can see how the doctrinal and historical information I have provided could be used by an unbeliever to support their unbelief. Much of how we process information is determined by WHAT WE WANT TO BELIEVE. Perhaps this is why the BofM informs us that a successful journey of faith begins with the simple DESIRE TO BELIEVE:

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than DESIRE TO BELIEVE, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

 

Kate Kelly

It is now official. Kate Kelly has been temporarily relieved of her pew in the celestial kingdom and turned over to the buffetings of Satan according to several news sites.

For those few, unusual Mormons, who are rooted in Biblical Christianity, the Ordain Priesthood movement makes absolutely no sense with the absurd notion which seems to question the fairness and wisdom of the Savior himself for choosing 12 male apostles, when he could have chosen six male and six female members of the quorum of the Twelve.

Although some bloggers would equate the need to ordain women with properly respecting women and giving them a voice, there is not connection between the two issues. There have always been and always will be men that love and respect women and value their voice and those that don’t. If women were given priesthood authority and callings that they don’t now have, nothing would change. Some men would continue to love and respect women and value their voices.

I have observed and not been amazed at the revelatory comments that female commenters have made on my blogs over the years. My dear wife reminds me every day by her Christlike example how superior she is to me in countless ways. But none of that has anything to do with the need to change the ordained order that God has established.

Here is a listing of 70 LDS bloggers that bellied up to the bar and are putting it all on the line to publicly support Kate.

I have a first cousin that I adore.

She is a writer.

Her name is Terry Tempest Williams.

She recently wrote an open letter to her Bish and Pres Monson.

I couldn’t possibly disagree with her more than I do on this issue, assuming that the modern LDS church is the true church of God on the earth being led by direct revelation.

However, since the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is not the restored, New Testament Church of Christ that was formally established in 1830, I suppose there is no reason why revelation from the bottom up wouldn’t be just as interesting bizarre as it currently is from the top of the mortal command, downward, with a bunch of loose canon, corporate executives at the helm, buying up real estate and investing in shopping centers.

Isaiah prophesied that this feminist ordeal would happen:

“Woe unto the wicked!  it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.  O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.”

Here is what she has to say in her letter as she lectures the leaders of the church.

13 June 2014
AN OPEN LETTER TO BISHOP MARK HARRISON AND PRESIDENT THOMAS S. MONSON AND THE FIRST PRESIDENCY OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS AND THE COUNCIL OF TWELVE APOSTLES:

I stand in solidarity with Kate Kelly and her plea to grant women equal standing in the rights, responsibilities and privileges of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, including the right to hold the Priesthood. Revelations occur. Whereas Polygamy was once sanctioned through revelation, now it is not. Whereas African Americans were told they could not hold the Priesthood, now they do. Doctrines that denied dignity or defied the rights of law to individuals within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, have changed through modern-day revelation. The time has come to shift the religious inequality toward women and allow sisters to lead alongside their brothers in prayer and power and purpose.

For the Mormon Church to continue to preserve this spiritual patrimony is to affirm its organizational misogyny. Why is asking to grant half its membership equal power under God viewed as apostasy? Why is a vision to ordain women worthy of disciplinary action and excommunication, when twelve-year old boys are ‘given’ the priesthood? Are men and women not equal under God’s eyes?

This kind of governance is not tolerated in the United States of America. And it should not be tolerated by those of us who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints.
The question must be asked: What are you afraid of?

In 1977, I watched the Mormon Church undermine the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment in Salt Lake City, Utah. It is a well known and documented story. And in 1979, I watched Sonia Johnson similarly demonized and disciplined, ironically, by her local congregation in Virginia, as well, for speaking out for the rights of women which led to her excommunication. And in 1993, I witnessed Professor Cecilia Konchar Farr exercise her voice concerning violence against women at Brigham Young University, and when she spoke out on behalf of a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion, I watched her charged with “violating her responsibilities as a university citizen” and accused of “undermining the faith of her students.” She did not pass her three-year review and was denied her teaching contract. At this same time, historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, Pulitzer Prize winning author and MacArthur Fellow, was rejected by BYU’s Board of Trustees as a keynote speaker at BYU ‘s Women’s Conference. Was it because Ulrich was a founding member of Exponet II, a feminist journal for Mormon women? 1993 was also the year of ‘The September Six’ excommunications, six Mormon scholars, half of them feminists, dismembered for raising questions of sexism, homophobia, and intellectual disparities within LDS religious doctrine.

This is our history. I thought the era of retribution was behind us. Apparently, not. Kate Kelly speaks for all of us within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints who care about an equality of power for women — active members and dissident members like me – men and women, both — who believe there is no difference in the spiritual aspirations between men and women, gay, straight, or transgender. Each of us are the creators of the world we wish to live in, with equal power, equal voice, and equal opportunities beyond the womb.
At a time when sexual assault, rape, and repeated acts of violence against women are under public scrutiny and part of the public conversation that is happening around the world, the Mormon Church’s ongoing policy to withhold ordination from women is its own act of violence.

Before my mother died, she faced her young granddaughters, and said, “I pray that one day, you two will hold the priesthood.”

I believe my mother’s voice was prophetic delivered with love and wise intention. Kate Kelly is delivering this intention now and it is not without the labor pains of a movement with momentum. I do not believe Kate Kelly should be disciplined for her vision of women ordained. Nor do I believe she should be excommunicated for exercising her voice in public. Her disciplinary hearing set for June 22, 2014, in Virginia where she no longer resides, is another attempt to silence women by a world religion run by men.

Behind Kate Kelly and ‘Ordain Women’, there is a long lineage of women, old and young and in between, not interested in asking for permission or hoping for a revelation, but rather, ready and willing to carry this vision forward in prayer and in action, for the simple reason, it is time. This is not an act of apostasy, but an act of self-respect, and a belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints will honor its sisters of faith, not punish them.

Sincerely,
Terry Tempest Williams
Castle Valley, Utah
There you have it… can there be any doubt that we are living in the last days?


Miscellaneous Musings # 5 Phineas Young

June 13, 2014

Church Discipline

We seem to be at another defining moment in Mormon history with the announcement that John Dehlin and Kate Kelly are facing disciplinary councils. The Church has done everything possible to avoid this confrontation, their hand is being forced, in my opinion. They don’t want the public relations nightmare and residual collateral damage that is going to result in holding church courts on people with high profiles. Obviously, they have come to the conclusion that doing nothing will result in greater collateral damage.

It is interesting how Mormon news now becomes national news as the NY Times, Huffington Post and other national media outlets are jumping on the story. America is having a warped fascination with things Mormon, particularly things that embarrass Mormonism.

I have mixed emotions about this topic because on the one hand, the church is totally within their right to cut off people who publicly disagree with official policies and doctrines of the church. In fact, if they don’t, the church could eventually implode as a result of the weight of internal skepticism and unbelief from within the church.

What troubles me is that the church falsely represents their own priesthood authority to represent the Lord and to judge others.

Although the media is suggesting that both of these individuals are being disciplined for their activism in womens rights and gay rights, LGBT, etc., I am not convinced that those are the primary issues for which John is being disciplined. I think John’s blatant mocking of the core beliefs of the LDS restoration and his use of mormonstories to embarrass the church on historical and doctrinal issues is really the real issue for his disciplinary council.

I also think it is not a coincidence that this action is taking place just prior to John’s upcoming interviews with Alex Beam, the author of American Crucifixion and Jeremy Runnells, the author of “Letter to a CES Director”.

One of my friends who teaches in elders quorum just read American Crucifixion and his comment was, “I don’t know how anyone can read that book and remain a Mormon without understanding the scapegoat doctrine“.

Although I believe John’s Mormonstories series has a profound calling in bringing issues and personalities to the public light of scrutiny, it has always bothered me that John presents himself and his series as being neutral. I think it is disingenuous of John to represent himself as a Mormon that loves the church and desires membership in it, while doing everything he can to embarrass the church and mock the core beliefs of the restoration.

I remain mystified how people that have lost all faith in God and the restoration fight to remain in the church and want sympathy when they are cast out of it.

I think Mormon stories would be much more powerful and authentic if the interviewer truly was neutral and objective and if they made more of an effort to balance things out and interview contemporary luminaries who believe in the Book of Mormon and the mission of Joseph Smith.

I noticed that at the end of his interview with Sandra Tanner, that he walked over and held up the replica of the gold plates and mockingly displayed how inconceivable the whole storyline behind the plates and the Book of Mormon is. He is definitely not a neutral interviewer.

John has a gi-normous following. He really knows how to play on people’s emotions and work an online crowd. He asked his followers to comfort his wife and children during the trauma of his upcoming church court and within 24 hours he has had over 1,000 comments from adoring fans.

According to my understanding, if a person submits a letter of resignation ANY TIME PRIOR TO THE CHURCH COURT, the church legally has to stop all proceedings and simply take the person’s name off of the records of the church. I suspect that Kate and John have no intentions of resigning, they want to become martyrs and to work the media for all it is worth.

 

A Blatant Lie

I noticed that Denver Snuffer has posted a blurb about the official response from the church regarding how church discipline is always conducted exclusively by local authorities. The official statement from the church states that:

“Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters.”

 

Snuffer’s response to the claim is as follows:

“The assertion by the church in their press release that “Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters” is false. In the case of public, controversial members, it is a lie.

 

Of course Snuffer is absolutely correct on this issue. It is shocking that the church would publish such a patently false statement. I have to wonder how the General authorities, not to mention the Stake Presidents, Bishops and regional authorities that have been caught in the middle of these disciplinary issues, feel in their hearts about this deception.

Is this justified under the topic of “lying for the Lord”?

The Book of Mormon is inspired fiction?

While perusing the Internet the other day I came upon a few sites that spoke about the fact that Van Hale, popular LDS apologist and talk radio show host, rejects the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but accepts it as “inspired fiction”.

He believes that God inspired Joseph Smith to create a false storyline with true doctrinal principles in it. He apparently believes that the Book of Mormon qualifies as divine scripture even though it’s claims to be a record of an ancient people are false.

How can a person maintain any personal integrity and self respect when claiming to believe that God inspired Joseph Smith to create a false storyline that is filled with lies about history and fictitious historic personalities?

The Book of Mormon is true. It is also an accurate record of the ancient inhabitants of North America.

William Smith Replaced Phineus Young as an Apostle?

I am reading a few interesting books. One of them is “Lost Apostles”. It is about the six original members of the quorum of the Twelve that left the church early on. As you know, I believe these guys are awesome folks, most of whom will return to complete their stewardships.

It is always fun to come across historical tidbits that are new to me. I was shocked to find out that when the three witnesses chose the twelve apostles, per their divine mandate from the Lord, Brigham Young’s brother Phineas young was one of the twelve they selected and William Smith, Joseph Smith’s brother, was NOT!

According to the testimony of Phineas, he was the FIRST one picked.

p young

Joseph intervened AFTER Phineas was selected and asked him to give up his position to his brother William Smith..

 

Williamsmith

 

Here is a letter from Oliver Cowdery to Brigham Young

 

Elkhorn, Walworth County, Wisconsin February 27, 1848

Dear Brigham [Young]:

By the hand of Brother Phineas H. Young I received your epistle of December last, and after reading it carefully and conversing freely with Brother Phineas, I have thought that if circumstances would permit I would visit you in the early part of the spring say as soon as the 6th of April, if possible. This will give me an opportunity of seeing my valuable old friends, and time too of conversing upon interesting subjects. I have concluded to do so for many reasons; One is, it is difficult communicating as fully by writing as one would often wish, and also it will give time to say orally what one can hardly communicate in any other way as well. I have said above, that if possible I would see you the 6th of April: this my be prevented on account of certain business, of which Brother Phineas will fully acquaint you, which I may find myself under an honorable obligation of doing.

Brother Phineas informs me that you talk of going into the [Salt Lake] valley this summer. After conversing with Brother Phineas upon some matters of importance, you may think best not to, till you shall have seen us. I refer you to Brother Phineas for full particulars, upon which you will act as wisdom may direct. Brother Phineas will also inform you of the substance of what I have just written to Brother David Whitmer, advising him for reasons given by all means to be at Winter Quarters on the 6th of April.

As I may not be with you at the conference, and as this is a confidential communication, I may be permitted to say a word in relation to a matter long since past, but which is due Brother Phineas. At the time the Twelve were chosen in Kirtland, and I may say before it had been manifested that Brother Phineas was entitled to occupy the station as one of the number; but owing to Brother Joseph’s urgent request at the time, Brother David and myself yielded to his wish, and consented for William to be selected, contrary to our feelings and judgment, and to our deep mortification ever since. Brother Phineas occupied at that time a relation to myself that caused me to feel delicate about urging his name and besides Brother Joseph, about that time was bearing down heavily upon Brother Phineas. The time has now come when Brother Phineas can occupy the place where he ought to have been from the first, and I cannot but hope he may have justice done him as far as possible. You and others may think that it is a matter about which I have no right to speak, but this shall not prevent my saying the truth, for it one to a worthy man, though he be my brother-in-law.

As to other matters, I refer you to Brother Phineas. I will in great haste subscribe myself.

Yours in the new covenant,

Source: Oliver Cowdery to Brigham Young, February 27, 1848 in Gunn (1962).

 

According to the Wilford Woodruff Journal, in 1854, Phineas Young told the brethren in Utah about the switch:

“May 15, 1854: Near Fillmore, Utah.

 

Phineas Young said that he was the first that was chosen in the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, but Brother Joseph said he wished I would let Wm. Smith have that place, so I gave way to him. The above shows Phineas Young’s feelings

“Some fifty years after the formation of the quorum, in an interview that Zenas Gurley conducted with David Whitmer in January 1885, Whitmer corroborated Cowdery’s and Young’s recollections and confirmed that Phineas was the man who was originally selected for the position” (Cook, David Whitmer Interviews, 157.)  See http://signaturebooks.com/2014/04/lost-apostles-excerpts/#apostle9

 

 

 

young brothers

 

 

Pictured above, are Brigham Young and his four brothers, Lorenzo Dow,  Brigham, Phineas H.,  Joseph, and John

 Choosing the President of the Quorum of the Twelve

Back at that time, the president of a priesthood quorum was picked according to age. The oldest member of the quorum was the presiding member of the quorum. There was some discrepancy between who was older, between Thomas Marsh and David Patten because one of them could not remember his birth date.

It is believed that Thomas Marsh was born in on November 1 1799. David Patten was born November 14th 1799.

Interestingly, Phineas Young was born February 16 1799!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One can only wonder what would have happened and how the trajectory of the history of the church would have been affected had Phineas remained as an apostle and as the presiding apostle. He ended up living a few years longer than Brigham.

Would Phineas have wrested the kingdom from Sidney during the succession crisis?

I don’t know that much about Phineas, but I suspect he was a good and humble man.

I would not be surprised at all if he returns and takes his rightful place as a member of the Twelve and perhaps even as the president of the quorum of the Twelve when the marvelous work begins.

 

 

 

 

 


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